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Elad02 -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (9/28/2005 9:05:14 PM)

As big of an issue as this seems to be, I really think that God would have been much more clear on it if it was actually a sin. If God thought it was necessary to tell us that it was wrong to have sex with animals (and He says this more than once), why wouldn't He have just come right out and said masturbation was too?

quote:

- reffered to The Woman at the Well passage to show that Jesus wishes to be the source of fulfillment in our lives. Jesus did not provide masturbation as a means for the woman to escape immorality, rather he gave her his words, which miraculously changed her life.


What He offered doesn't take away any of the physical needs we have. It's obvious He wasn't talking physical here, because after Jesus mentioned living water she wanted it so she wouldn't have to come back to the well and draw water again. Did she have to come back again? To this day everyone I know still has to have water.

If the surveys are correct then just about every guy does it. If something comes that naturally I don't see how it can be wrong. It's just part of our sexuality.



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Elad02 -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (9/29/2005 9:08:38 AM)

quote:

Therefore, I ask, Do you believe that God is ok with:
- Abortion, Child abuse, Child molestation, pedophillia, torchure, shooting heroin, oral sex, anal sex and all other things not specifically mentioned in scripture?

I believe I've commented on this before, but I'll do it again. Christ taught us to love others. Some things you listed there are the complete opposite of that. Anybody in their right mind knows its wrong to abuse, molest, torcher, etc. Like I said before - that's just common sense.
quote:

Good point. Let's role with that line of reasoning that "everything innate is holy and acceptable to God" :

- Cain killed Able.
- Murder came naturally to Cain.
- Therefore, is murder holy?

The answer based on your faulty logic:
- Yes!

The correct answer:
- No!


I don't know how you can compare murder to this. How many Christians murder? OK now how many masturbate? I'm sure there is a big difference there. We weren't created as 'murderous beings' so it's not in most peoples nature to go around killing people. He did however make us sexual beings.



DaveW -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (9/29/2005 1:03:40 PM)

This is in response to what was directed at me in the "depression" thread.
quote:

ORIGINAL: CJoel

DaveW, you do realize if you are wrong about M and that it is sin (which I believe it most definitely is ), that by encouraging other people to do it you are in serious trouble with God? The OP is making a sincere effort to rid his life of this sinful practice and now he has you telling him that its basically all a waste of time,that he is just making life harder on himself, that its OK to masturbate and he will feel much better if he just does it. Encouraging or influencing others to sin is a VERY dangerous practice.

Yes, I am aware of your concern. Those who teach have a "greater judgement" as Paul said. That is why I have spent almost 20 years of off-and-on bible research to reach the conclusions I have.

Likewise, Jesus condemned those who added sins, called something sin that was never prohibited biblically. So if you call this sin and it is not, you also run the risk of being a false teacher who will have to answer to God.

I find it interesting that there were 2 Pharasaic teachers (who perhaps were still alive when Jesus was at the temple at age 12) that disagreed on almost everything. R. Hillel was the "{flaming liberal" and R. Shammai was the "extreme fundamentalist/legalist." In reading their respective positions, it seemed that Jesus clashed with those from the Shammai camp rather than Hillel's. One thing Jesus got on both for (although this would probably apply more to Shammai) was adding to the written biblical commands. This is called making a "fence."

In doing this, Jesus took the stand that whatever was not specifically prohibited was allowed. The comment about Cain being a murderer is covered by "Thou shalt not kill." It is also covered by many passages condemning shedding innocent blood, which seems to be the "blood" that is forbidden to gentile believers in Acts 15.20. (contrary to what some versions read, this word is not connected to food)

As a gentile believer, there are only 4 prohibitions. Pornia (fornication, immorality) is one of them. This whole thing boils down to whether you can stick M into pornia or not. Obviously pornography would be, and lusting after someone (with or without M). How was pornia used? The word itself comes from pornas which was a class of prostitue slaves. We get the english word pornography from pornas - literally it is the "writing of prostitutes." In the writings of the Helenist Jewish communities it seems to be used as a word for what ever was prohibited sexually in the Law. Everything there is couple-sex, not solo sex. Interesting since the Hebrew slaves in Egypt would have been very aware of the heiroglyphs depticting M and the how it figured into Egyptian creation myths. Many of the specific practices of the Egyptian and Cannanite religions are prohibited without explaination in the Law. Not M. The law is not abashed in describing any other specific sexual sin.

On another level, one must ask the question why sex with anyone other than a spouse is forbidden. Or, OTOH, why is sex with a spouse PERMITTED? I would submit to you that it is because in marriage the 2 become one.

Mat 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh'?
Mat 19:6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."

So if you are having sex with your wife, you are really having sex with yourself. "...no longer two but one flesh."

It is this joining w/o marriage that is forbidden.

1Co 6:16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, "The two will become one flesh."

Jewish thought had man as a whole, the idea of seperate soul spirit and body is a later concept. To be "one body" means to be totally joined. I submit to you that any joining without a covenant bond is an abomination to God. He requires oneness in marriage which is physically expressed in the sexual bond.

Looked at in this light consider this verse:

Eph 5:28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

This obviously would include sexually since that is one way we love our wives.



wolfvanzandt -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (9/29/2005 5:51:53 PM)

quote:

You have said before that "masturbation is not mentioned in scripture" several times. And, the Leviticus statement does not mention masturbation by name. You are simply reading in to it.


When did I say that the scripture doesn't mention masturbation? And it describes the blanket situation where seed is spilled by an individual. It applies to any such case. I am not simply reading masturbation into the scripture. It directly applies.

quote:

This statement itself is 2 standard deviations below the norm. In other words, it's hopeless to argue with reasoning like this, that is so extreamely devoid of intellect.


I'm simply countering the (false) statement you made that we all agreed that masturbatory fantasies are lustful and sinful. It simply wasn't true.

quote:

And the orgasm simply is a "side effect," that is not pursued?

Wrong. Guys masturbate because of the 'free orgasm,' not to fulfill some health plan.


You tend to assume far too much that you know what's going on in other guys' head. But I was talking about the intended purpose of masturbation - by the Creator - not by the user. If we use it for the wrong reasons, then that's not the process' fault or the Creator's. As it is, just because somethings pleasant doesn't make it sinful, so the orgasm, although it's characteristic of the process, shouldn't lead you to assume that it's sinful.

quote:

Actually promasturbators use more faulty logic and false doctrines.
(ie. "everything not mentioned is ok with God," etc.)


Actually, I've seen more anti-masturbators using faulty logic and false doctrine. And noooooooooone has ever said that "everything not mentioned is ok with God." You made that one up yourself.

quote:

So, we can conclude that in order for masturbation to be used as an effective means of reducing prostate cancer it needs to be done virtually every single day of every month of a man's entire life.


You are absolutely right, which is why masturbation should not be considered an addiction because it should be performed frequently. And yes I meet my quota.

There are only two common situations where an individual would have his own semen on him while being alone - nocturnal emission and masturbation. The Leviticus passage doesn't specify which it is. I suspect that the only reason you don't believe that it's talking about masturbation is that you already have your mind made up that mastrurbation is sinful. But if you just heard that a man was alone with semen on him, the most natural assumption would be that he was masturbation. The more common phenomenon is masturbation. So if Leviticus was talking about noturnal emission, it would not have given a general description that would have applied to either, it would have specifically mentioned norturnal emission. It was talking about masturbation, along with any other solitary spillage of semen.

And in the earlier thread, I listed from 6 to 8 studies demonstrating the beneficial effects of masturbation for both men and women - there have been at least three studies taht have indicated that masturbation decreases the risk of cancer - there have probably been more - those are only the ones I've seen.



wolfvanzandt -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (9/29/2005 5:54:54 PM)

Dave, in both the Old and New Testaments, God complained about religious leaders adding on restrictions until the congregation couldn't bear up under them. It's one of the primary complaints that God has had with us since the beginning. It seems that, as Humans, we want to restrict other people.



JamesPr -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (9/29/2005 6:17:18 PM)

Let's look at this logically, because that's what I believe the bible is, is a book of logic and reason.

Masturbation does harm to no-one. Masturbators if anything are less inclined to go have premarital sex, because their sexual needs and wants are kept in check. To be honest, the people that worry the most about masterbation and the repercussions of what's going to happen if they do it, are probably people that are uncomfortable with their own sexuality in the first place. I'm not saying that they're "not straight" or anything, I'm saying that they don't have a comfortable grasp of what healthy sexual feelings are.

It's one thing to look at a girl like she's some object for your own pleasure, and it's another thing to treat her as you would treat anyone else, as a human being.

I felt guilty about masturbation when I started it, but, you know what? People can feel guilty doing anything personal, or are uncomfortable with at that current state. For instance, when I was younger I had parasitic worms for a little while from something I probably ate. I was guilty about that, just as I was guilty about masturbation. These things happen, they're part of life.



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dantose -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (9/29/2005 10:27:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhatLoveIs

quote:

And noooooooooone has ever said that "everything not mentioned is ok with God." You made that one up yourself.


If "masturbation is ok with God" only because "it's not mentioned," then everything else that's not mentioned must be "ok with God" as well.

Therefore, scriptural basis for pro-masturbation, must be more than "it's not mentioned- therefore God is alright with it."

The standard for allowing it must be higher than "no specific reference disapproving it."

Otherwise, it theologically opens the door for anything not specifically mentioned to be allowed. (ie. Abortion, Child abuse, Child molestation, pedophillia, torchure, shooting heroin, oral sex, anal sex... anything not specifically mentioned in scripture by name.)


By the same token, it isn't wrong just because it's not mentioned. Besides, no one is saying everything not mentioned is ok so I'm not even sure why you are stressing this point.



JamesPr -> My Opinion (9/30/2005 4:43:40 PM)

Why do you think God didn't mention "Proper Sex" much in the bible?

It's because "Proper Sex" is relative from person to person, and there is no definite right or wrong. It is up to yourselves to determine what is right and wrong for YOU, not anyone else.

Obviously, there are things such as looking at a girl enticing her to have sex with you, possibly getting her pregnant, while seriously putting a hamper on her ability to live life to the fullest, not just for herself but for her child.

I personally think what's wrong with a little fun with a girl if you both can handle it without making a big deal about it? I mean kissing, or other things that I won't get into that aren't sex itself.

You may not agree with me, that's fine. You may argue, that's fine. I don't care, it's what I think. Just accept the fact that I am entitled to my opinion, just as you are.



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wolfvanzandt -> RE: d (9/30/2005 6:34:46 PM)

quote:

If "masturbation is ok with God" only because "it's not mentioned," then everything else that's not mentioned must be "ok with God" as well.

Therefore, scriptural basis for pro-masturbation, must be more than "it's not mentioned- therefore God is alright with it."

The standard for allowing it must be higher than "no specific reference disapproving it."

Otherwise, it theologically opens the door for anything not specifically mentioned to be allowed. (ie. Abortion, Child abuse, Child molestation, pedophillia, torchure, shooting heroin, oral sex, anal sex... anything not specifically mentioned in scripture by name.)


Actually, ignoring that it is mentioned (if only by a blanket reference) in the Bible and is not condemned, the fact that it is not mentioned elsewhere is telling. There are reasons why it is relevant to masturbation while it is not with some of the other things you mentioned.

Abortion. I don't really want to go into that here because it would hijack this topic. But it's more complicated than most Christians are willing to admit. Although I do believe it is wrong, I do not believe that it's murder simply because of a very similar case given in Leviticus (I think) where an accidental assault on a woman causing her to lose her unborn child but to either lose or not lose her life leads to different penalties for the assalant. THis only near reference to abortion in the Bible is usually ignored in discussions in the Bible. I recognize that Chritians, when forming opinions about particular subjects are more interested in what their tradition says than what the Bible says.

Child abuse is covered in the Bible - certain physical discipline that would be concidered child abuse in today's society is not considered child abuse by the Bible. More extreme cases come into effect when laws about humanity at large is taken into consideration. There are laws, in other words, in the Bible that generalize to children simply because they apply to all humanity.

Again, the Bible is clear about adultry and fornication which would include child molestation and pedophilia but does not include masturbation because masturbation is not adultery or fornication.

Torture is covered by general laws governim=ng behavior between humans. Shooting heroin is clearly harmful to the indibidual and only a little less harmful to humanity as a whole but masturbation is beneficial.

Oral and anal sex - the Bible doesn't say anything about it so simply leave it alone. If a married couple wants to do those things, I can't see where the Bible has any problem with it.

But masturbation was a common activity in Biblical times and all other forms of common sexual immorality were condemned in the Bible. If masturbation was sexually immoral, there is no way it would have been left out. It's lack of mention is very telling.

quote:

It doesn't matter if the playboy is in one's mind or is being viewed with one's eyes -it's the same lust that focuses on both. Both are sin. Both are wrong.


But the "same lust" is not present. In masturbation, the fantasies do not necessarily involve and other real person. When Jesus comments on mental desire bing lust, he was speciifically talking about fixating desire on a real person. It absolutely makes a difference - it absolutely is different.

quote:

Sexual Fanticy in masturbation is always wrong.


Your opinoin, but support it.

quote:

Sexual fanticy serves no other purpose than to arouse oneself by lust, so that, self gratification may take place.


Even if that were true, support your opinion that it's wrong. All you've said here is that sexual fantasy leads to pleasure; therefore, it's wrong. You need to prove that.

quote:

Since when does something sinful have to harm other people?


That's not the ppoint that I was making. I'll let you figure that one out yourself. It isn't that hard.

You're making a lot of statements of opinion, WhatLoveIs, but you're not supporting them. I don't mind knowing your opnion, but if you want to say that what you believe is right, you have to demonstrate that.

quote:

I personally think what's wrong with a little fun with a girl if you both can handle it without making a big deal about it? I mean kissing, or other things that I won't get into that aren't sex itself.


I believe that the wrong in that is that a casual approach to relationships lead to expectations that, if not fulfilled, will cause harm. People don't "play arouns" without bonds being formed; therefore, it's irresponsible to "play around" without commitments being made first.

quote:

I just don't want to end up in a debate with the same people about one of those other subjects (ie. abortion, etc.) - and their entire arguement is the same thing, "not mentioned=ok.'


Actually, you are risking bringing up those very debates.



Jude3- -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (10/1/2005 8:33:39 AM)

Just for the record, I think its sickening that anyone can claim to be a Christian and endorse, support, and/or encourage M.



JamesPr -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (10/1/2005 10:24:39 AM)

For all we know Jesus may of masturbated.

You don't know, so why argue, or even care about it?

2 Timothy 2:23
Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.
2 Timothy 2:22-24 (in Context) 2 Timothy 2 (Whole Chapter)

How forceful are right words! But what doth your arguing reprove?
Job 6:24-26 (in Context) Job 6 (Whole Chapter)

What do arguments prove? Who's better at arguments?



Jude3- -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (10/2/2005 8:01:27 AM)

If you knew Him ,you would know He never did.


quote:

ORIGINAL: JamesPr

For all we know Jesus may of masturbated.

You don't know, so why argue, or even care about it?

2 Timothy 2:23
Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.
2 Timothy 2:22-24 (in Context) 2 Timothy 2 (Whole Chapter)

How forceful are right words! But what doth your arguing reprove?
Job 6:24-26 (in Context) Job 6 (Whole Chapter)

What do arguments prove? Who's better at arguments?



JamesPr -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (10/2/2005 8:55:59 AM)

I forgive you for judging how much I know Christ.

I shouldn't of participated in this stupid argument, because it produced a quarrel.



DaveW -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (10/2/2005 9:29:30 AM)

quote:

CJoel:
Just for the record, I think its sickening that anyone can claim to be a Christian and endorse, support, and/or encourage M.

JamesPr:
For all we know Jesus may of masturbated.

CJoel:
If you knew Him, you would know He never did.

Interesting position to take. So I "sicken" you, eh? Why? I can understand if you feel it is not right for you to do that, or that God has spoken to you on this. But this assumes that everyone functions in the kingdom in the exact same way. Clearly this is not biblical.

As to your statement about knowing Him, there is no biblical record of this one way or another. What are you basing your "knowledge" on? Doctrinal stance? Personal revelation? Neither are sufficient to support something as cold hard fact. The bible was not written by modern day western theologians. The NT was written mostly by 1st century middle eastern Jews. In fact, modern theologians are often in a quandry over how the writers got what they said out of the scripture references they used, and why they would pull together seemingly unrelated passages to make a point not obvious from either. Mark and Matthew do it all the time. In their records, Jesus Himself did it. Paul does it too, but less than the gospel writers. If you can answer how He did that, you might have a reason to say that you know Him. If not, your knowledge of Him is based on false assumptions.



DaveW -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (10/2/2005 9:47:19 AM)

I do not know if this is CJoel's position or not. But I know that many believe that Jesus never masturbated or married based on the idea that sex of any kind renders one ceremonially unclean. There is also a false understanding that being ceremonially unclean means sinful. Not so.

True, any activity involving ejaculation - including wet dreams would make one ceremonially unclean. It is also true that anything that included bleeding rendered one unclean. The worst kind of uncleanness was touching a corpse or any garment that had previously touched a corpse. This uncleanness could only be nullified by the ashes of a red heifer. We know that on several occasions Jesus laid his hands on a corpse, one time physically stopping a funeral procession by blocking the coffin. These would have all made Him unclean. As He was sinless, it is clear that being ritually unclean does not equal sin. This is a uniquely gentile intrepetation and totally false. Otherwise a woman is in sin one week of every month during her child bearing years, and it would be sin to have a baby. It is difficult to square that with the command to be fruitful and multiply. We have to sin to obey God's command?

Ancient orthodox/catholic theologians who held the view that unclean=sin had a problem to deal with. While Mary was concieved in an immaculate conception (no ritual uncleanness) and was a virgin when Jesus was conceived (no uncleanness there either), his birth would still render her and him unclean. Since she had to be also sinless until he was weaned, they devised a bit of sci-fi. Some how Jesus was teleported out of her abdomen and materialized outside her body. No stretching of the birth canal, no bleeding, no nothing. All I gotta say to that is "Beam me up Scotty!"

Point: ritual uncleanness does not equal sin. Jesus could be "unclean" (and I submit that He was often "unclean") and still not sin.



JamesPr -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (10/2/2005 10:06:21 AM)

DaveW, he believes what he believes and that is all right. I believe what I believe, and that is all right as well.

It's a relative question. I don't really understand relativity very well, thus I can't explain it very well, but here is an example that may make sense.

An example would be two people staring at a train where one person is at the back and another person is at the front. They're staring at the same train, just from different viewpoints.

You're worshipping the same God, you just have different opinions about the same God. Does that make either of your opinions wrong? Nope.



JamesPr -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (10/2/2005 10:50:34 AM)

Deleted, I don't think this is going anywhere, I shouldn't of even posted.



Jude3- -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (10/2/2005 1:06:17 PM)

And of course, you guys that practice M never, ever think of women while your doing it right? Strictly a biological function correct?



PolarBear -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (10/3/2005 12:06:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CJoel

Just for the record, I think its sickening that anyone can claim to be a Christian and endorse, support, and/or encourage M.

Now that's a bit disturbing, because I think you have to admit that Wolf, DaveW, and (hopefully) myself have presented enough Biblical reasons why it isn't necessarily sin. We all (I think) believe in a holy God who hates sin and take the Bible as His inerrent Word. If it was clearly a sin, we would not be saying what we are.

I realize some people can feel strongly against it, and that's OK, but implying that someone is a not a "true Christian" for taking a view that can fit within a conservative understanding of Scripture is not too cool.

Sort of like other issues ... some Christians are horrified that others drink alcohol, perhaps questioning their faith. I have been accused of "ignoring Scripture" for believing that the days of Creation are long periods of time, even though many great Hebrew scholars and ardent defenders of Biblical inerrency agree with me on that.

Point is, any interpretation of the words of the Bible that fits the facts and does not contradict other words of the Bible should be considered orthodox, and not divide true Christians. I believe that permitting masturbation in some contexts indeed does consistently fit the words of the Bible.

That's not to say it isn't a problem. I freely admit that I still struggle with it more than I like, not for the act itself, but because sometimes (not every time) I have thoughts that are at least borderline sinful. [:(]



JudeThree -> RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread (10/3/2005 12:43:05 AM)

All the more reason to stop doing it and more evidence that it is indeed sinful. Sex was designed to be shared with a partner (in marriage) so its only natural for somone engaging in M to think of another person. I honestly cannot imagine how anyone could perform the act of M without some type of visualization or imagination.


quote:

ORIGINAL: PolarBear

quote:

ORIGINAL: CJoel

Just for the record, I think its sickening that anyone can claim to be a Christian and endorse, support, and/or encourage M.

Now that's a bit disturbing, because I think you have to admit that Wolf, DaveW, and (hopefully) myself have presented enough Biblical reasons why it isn't

That's not to say it isn't a problem. I freely admit that I still struggle with it more than I like, not for the act itself, but because sometimes (not every time) I have thoughts that are at least borderline sinful. [:(]



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