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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 2:31:15 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 993
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
So even though God is the one who said that sabbath is HIS day, He changed His mind? Then the scriptures must be wrong when David said thy word is percect and settled in heaven forever (Psalms 119:103).
I'm sorry to see you don't read all of the threads here in the forums because I don't really want to get into that all over again about what we both would agree has changed in the law and which makes the 'unchanging law' argument meaningless. There are numerous changes to the law--the law that you and others are so sure hasn't, and cannot change. It's not a good defense for continuation of the literal Sabbath.
You have to shake this Hebraic mindset so you can see the fallacy of so many arguments you cling to. I know it's not going to be easy. It seems once a person is ensnared by this doctrine it takes a profound event to shake them loose--like what it took for David to see the truth about what God is really looking for far and above mere outward and literal expressions of worship.
You claim the Old Covenant is still intact and literally binding, but even you have to realize that you do not keep it to the letter as a direct result of Christ's work on the cross. That's why I say all this really comes down to a denominational struggle about how much of the literal law we should be using in our external worship of God. It's not a matter of 'all or nothing'. It's a matter of how much of the whole will we keep.
I say it doesn't matter anymore. God has made it clear what we are to be walking according to the letter of the Spirit, not the law. We have been set free from the external restraints of the law to focus on what really counts--Christlike character. We are all free to pattern our external worship and meeting styles anyway we want to and instead focus on the higher purpose of building each other up into the image of Christ.
If you are in a Church that talks endlessly about the externals, and the right way to meet together instead of teaching what kind of people we ought to be then you probably need to find another church, because they are not properly preparing you to meet Christ. Imitating Christ means being the kind of person He is, not following OT requirements for external worship.
"Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. (Eph. 5:1-2)
Until 'church' becomes a means to an ends for you--instead of it being an end in and of itself--then you will struggle accepting the NT freedom from the restraints of literal, external requirements for worship. Like David learned, worship of God (or any 'god' for that matter) is a matter of the heart, not the external trappings of our worship. But external trappings can deceive a person into thinking they've really worshipped God satisfactorily when in fact they have not.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
We who keep sabbath are doing the same things that are being doen on Sunday. Just doing what the bible says that's all. Leviticus 23:3 says that this is a holy convecation along with being a day of rest. It was changed by man, not God.
P.S. Good to see you again SB! 
I logged on to post that very scripture, but I see you beat me to it. I won't mention his name but there is another law-keeper in these threads who separates the requirement for meeting together and the day of rest. But like all other squabbles about how to keep the literal law you'll have to take it up with your fellow adherants. The only thing I'll argue for was that both meeting together and not working were indeed requirements of the weekly Sabbath under the Old Covenant.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 8:10:23 PM
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sudzer
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Ez_3: Amen, it also says in Rev. Blessed is he who keeps the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus. I believe scripture is talking all 10 not 9. Also if you go back into early church history you will see that many where marytered for keeping the Sabbath on Sat. instead of Sun. For the catholic church had decreed that the Sabbath should be keeped on Sun. their thinking being that all christians whould keep Sun as a holy day. As Constantine put it so that they did not keep a feast of the one's who murdered Jesus. Blessing Sudzer
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 8:15:01 PM
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sudzer
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Who is man to change what God has ordained. He will requite this upon their heads. I believe that God the Father, through His Holy Spirit is showing his church knowlege of the truth and what is pleasing to Him. We have been decieved by many doctirnes ordained by men as Commandment of God. May the Lord show us what is pleasing to Him in all things. Blessings Sudzer
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 9:58:20 AM
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jbow
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From: Dixie
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The Sabbath is no longer a day, not to a Christian. Christians are crucified with Christ and those who have died have ceased from their labors. If we deny our self, take up our cross, and follow Him then we enter into a rest. We no longer work, we have passeed from death into life and every moment of our life is the Sabbath.
Cannan is a picture of the Sabbath.
We are living in Cannan now, if indeed we are crucified with Christ, if indeed we be in Christ.
J
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 10:12:43 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
The Sabbath is no longer a day, not to a Christian. Christians are crucified with Christ and those who have died have ceased from their labors. If we deny our self, take up our cross, and follow Him then we enter into a rest. We no longer work, we have passeed from death into life and every moment of our life is the Sabbath.
Cannan is a picture of the Sabbath.
We are living in Cannan now, if indeed we are crucified with Christ, if indeed we be in Christ.
Amen and amen to that. I know alot of you write that you don't believe in the works as far as for salvation. But in your heart your say you do. Has nothing to do with the extra laws that rabbis were giving out at that time. But it was the work of what Jesus Christ did on the cross which did it all for me.
Now someone will right that I believe in breaking the law. So be it you will never understand, just like the ones who the Messiah was talking to in the first century.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 10:20:34 AM
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A_crucified_man
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Jesus Christ is the Sabbath and if you're in Him, you've fulfilled it. Any day you set aside for the Lord is between Him and you - going to church on any given day doesn't save you.
He did it all for us at Calvary - nothing missing, nothing broken, and it is finished.
_____________________________
Derek
John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease."
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 1:41:31 PM
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LBolt
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Sudzer, tag your it! Fight the good fight, brother!! LOL
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 8:32:22 PM
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sudzer
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Hey brother how are you, been looking for you in some of the threads. So I am tagged lol. Your turn, try tongues, been in there. May God bless you and those of your household. Sudzer
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2008 8:36:39 PM
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sudzer
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Regarding the Sabbath, What does scriputure say, not what you have been taught or what you have listen to, but what does God the Father and Jesus the Son say about the Sabbath. Dust of the old testiment and start there. There is one thing that is truth, God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow He never changes, we do. Shabbot Shalom. Sudzer
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/10/2008 7:53:50 PM
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LBolt
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Unfortunately, alot of our brothers and sisters have been deceived! Adam's first wife was tricked in the garden of Eden and sadly, the Second Adam's wife has been deceived as well! Sudzer, a lot of people are stuck! Truth will demand change and some people aren't willing to change. Some won't admit that they are wrong. A whole lot will spiritualize things away. It's nothing wrong with seeing the "sod" mystery realm of the Word of God, but let's not forget the "pashat" realm.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2008 1:10:15 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1066
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quote:
A whole lot will spiritualize things away. It's nothing wrong with seeing the "sod" mystery realm of the Word of God, but let's not forget the "pashat" realm.
Gee not to be sarcastic or rude. But I remember Jesus talking to a woman at a well and told her that it will come a time that those who worship God must do it in spirit and in truth.
So I have been deceived, when I die I'm going to hell. Because I didn't sit my butt down on the seven day. Or follow all of the statues to a perfect tee.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2008 2:58:09 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 993
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
A whole lot will spiritualize things away. It's nothing wrong with seeing the "sod" mystery realm of the Word of God, but let's not forget the "pashat" realm.
Gee not to be sarcastic or rude. But I remember Jesus talking to a woman at a well and told her that it will come a time that those who worship God must do it in spirit and in truth....
Yes, a direct example of the spiritual replacing the literal. And this is just one example of real change that came with the New Covenant that some refuse to acknowledge as being possible.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/11/2008 4:09:44 PM
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LBolt
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My problem with your position is that there is no scripture to support your view. We have shown with history why we have a Sunday Sabbath. Blog you brought a good article in the council of Nicea??? which showed the RCC change of scripture. The RCC itself admits they changed the Sabbath to Sunday and that Prostestants follow suit. Different ones admitted that there was no Biblical precedence or directive telling us to do so and yet you want to pan it off as being "ceremonial, legalistic or ritual."
You or nobody else in this world can usurp or circumvent the word of God! It has stood for all eternity and will continue to stand. Regardless of the man-made theologies we come up with.
The "every day is the Sabbath theology" is blown out of the water as well. Like I said before, there is not one scripture in the Bible that supports your position. It was Jesus' custom to keep Sabbath and it was Paul "manner" to keep Sabbath as well. And you know what, it'll be my custom to keep it and I have a whole lot of scripture to support it as well. Gen. 2:1-3; Exo. 16:23-29;20:8-12; Exo. 31:14-16; Exo. 35:2-3; Lev. 23:1-15;24:8; Deut 5:14; 2 Chronicles 23:8; Neh. 9:14; Isa. 56:2,6; 58:13; 66:23; Jer. 27:21-27;Ezek. 46:1-12; Amos 8:5; Matt. 12:1-12; Matt. 24:20; Mark 2:23-28*;3:2-4; Luke 4:16***;Luke 4:31***;Luke chapters 6,13,14,23; John chapters 5,7,9, 19; Acts chapters 1,13,15,16,17,18; Col. 2:16 (when taken in proper context!!); Heb. 4:1-12
And there are many, many more!
Seeing that we have such a mighty cloud of scriptures...let's us rethink our position and make the appropiate changes to our lives to conform with scripture rather than scripture conforming to our theology!
< Message edited by LBolt -- 3/11/2008 4:43:01 PM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/12/2008 10:58:51 AM
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mcleod
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Lbolt,
quote:
You or nobody else in this world can usurp or circumvent the word of God! It has stood for all eternity and will continue to stand. Regardless of the man-made theologies we come up with.
I can help but notice that you wrote "word of God", in your last message. The thing I notice is when Jesus walked the face of the earth. He would say "you have heard or it is written. Not that those were the word of God, but scriptures or writtings. For he was the Word of God who spoke to Moses On the mountain and gave him the laws. He shall be the one who will last forever and ever.
I would also like you to think about that day the fourth command. In which you say is so scared to keep on the seven day. Do you have your wife make you something to eat? Then you have failed in this command. I could go on and on how people who worship that day and miss the mark on that day. But that is why Jesus came and took care of all of that. When you put your trust in him then everyday is a sabbath. Please I know Ihave writen it as possibile rude and not mean to. But You guys who utterly think that "if I do something like watch my days and a few other things then God will be pleased in me. That is on the idea that is a works type salvation.
< Message edited by mcleod -- 3/12/2008 11:32:03 AM >
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/14/2008 11:51:26 AM
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bjay0801
Posts: 144
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Lbolt,
quote:
You or nobody else in this world can usurp or circumvent the word of God! It has stood for all eternity and will continue to stand. Regardless of the man-made theologies we come up with.
I can help but notice that you wrote "word of God", in your last message. The thing I notice is when Jesus walked the face of the earth. He would say "you have heard or it is written. Not that those were the word of God, but scriptures or writtings. For he was the Word of God who spoke to Moses On the mountain and gave him the laws. He shall be the one who will last forever and ever.
I would also like you to think about that day the fourth command. In which you say is so scared to keep on the seven day. Do you have your wife make you something to eat? Then you have failed in this command. I could go on and on how people who worship that day and miss the mark on that day. But that is why Jesus came and took care of all of that. When you put your trust in him then everyday is a sabbath. Please I know Ihave writen it as possibile rude and not mean to. But You guys who utterly think that "if I do something like watch my days and a few other things then God will be pleased in me. That is on the idea that is a works type salvation.
Is this the fruit of the Spirit? Where is it written that we cannot eat on the Sabbath? noone is worshipping the 4th commandment, we justt try to keep it. That's all. Either it is the word of God or not. Either the the Spirit of the Lord helps us walk like Him or not. noone that I no of is sitting down counting out which commandment they have kept that day. That would be ridiculous. Noone is trying to work for salvation; if that's the case, then we are condemned already. Now we do "works" because we are saved, as James said, show me your salvation with out your works and I'll show you my salvation by my works. I go to church on the sabbath because it's in the bible, not because I'm trying to be saved. Do you pray? That's a work. You go to church. That is also a work. Do you honor your parents? That's a work. Are doing those things to be saved? I don't think you are. You do them because you love the Lord. I love the Lord therefore I do my best to honor Him.
_____________________________
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2008 11:04:21 PM
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LoveYourEnemies
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I've read some of this thread, but being new here, there is no way I'll be able to read 109 pages, and 2715 postings anytime in the near future, and by the time I read them all, there would be another 50 pages added on...so I'll just make a few comments and hope I'm not being redundant to someone else.
EDIT: My apologies...I put up two postings in a row, and both are a bit longer than I expected when I started this. Feel free to break it down into smaller pieces for replying.
On this past page, I see people commenting about how we now keep the spirit of the law instead of the letter of the law. I've seen this argument many times in the past, and it is posted as if the spirit of the law is a better, easier path. Jesus defined the spirit of the law as a much harder road to follow. The letter says not to commit adultery, the spirit says that he who even thinks about it has committed adultery already. The letter says not to kill. The spirit says that he who hates his brother is guilty of breaking this commandment. The spirit of the law is a tougher standard than the letter.
So we set aside the commandment regarding the Sabbath, because we now walk in the spirit of the law??? That's what I'm hearing. Correct me if I'm wrong. Paul says that grace doesn't set aside the law, he says it establishes it.
SpongeBlog wrote the following:
quote:
We have been set free from the external restraints of the law to focus on what really counts--Christlike character. Christ like character is one who walks according to all the the Father commanded. Hello??? Anyone miss this?
Let me ask...what did Jesus set us free from? He set us free from sin. He didn't set us free to sin. To say we are free from the restraints of the law is to say we are free to break that law, to sin. Why can the Christian now sin when the non-Christian can't?
The law defines sin...sin is the transgression of the law. Now people say the law has been set aside. Excuse me. If that is so, then there is no longer anything to define sin. We can all do as we please. I can sleep with the Pastor's wife, and if he complains, I can shoot him dead...and I can steal his car to go to work on the Sabbath after I did all that, while using God's name in vain on my way there. Oh, and don't forget, I gotta pull over and worship that tree that I think is so majestic above all others before I get to work. Anyone see the absurdity in all of that? The 4th commandment is no different from all the rest.
If we set aside the law, we are no longer under grace. We wouldn't need grace, as there would be no more sin without law. Sin IS the transgression of the law. If the law was abrogated as some have proposed, no one in the NT needs a Savior, for none of us could have ever sinned since there would be no law to define sin. If we can't sin, why then do we need grace?
I'll add a post to finish this thought, as I am sure I will run out of characters.
< Message edited by LoveYourEnemies -- 3/16/2008 11:40:09 PM >
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2008 11:32:33 PM
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LoveYourEnemies
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I remember having a lot of trouble understanding the law many years ago. So many people seeing so many different clauses and escape hatches, and theories, my head was swimming. Then I ran across Gal. 5, and a huge light came on. I'll share what I learned from that chapter. I'm sure some of you will disagree.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
I bolded two areas above. I think these are very important.
Vs. 16. If we are led of the spirit, we walk according to vs 22-23. Against such there is no law. But there is a law against the works of the flesh as found in vs 19-22.
If we walk according to the flesh we are under the law. If we walk according to the spirit, we are not under the law. Notice how important this is.
We are also told that we are not under the law but under grace.
Boom...a connection is made IMO.
If we walk according to the flesh, we are under the law, meaning we are under the condemnation of the law.
If we walk according to the spirit, there is no law against this, therefore we are not under the condemnation of the law...we are not under the law. And, if we are not under the law, then we are now under grace...because...we once sinned and walked according to the flesh, and now grace is applied. We ask for forgiveness, and grace is there. We are now under grace.
What then, shall we break the law. God forbid. Yet those of us who say that we should keep the law are now legalists. We aren't saying we should keep the law in order to be saved. We are saying that we keep the law because that is the New Covenant...God say in Jer. 31 that He would make a New Covenant with his people, and that He would write his law upon their heart and in their mind. This is repeated in Heb 8 as well.
Those who are under the New Covenant will have His law written upon their hearts...now, it is a joy to them to walk according to Gods Word, it is no longer a burden. In the Old Covenant, man tried to keep the law under his own power, he made the promise and couldn't keep it. In the New Covenant, the promise is of God, not of man. Man's power vs. the Power of God...the difference between the New and the Old Covenant.
In the New Covenant, man will walk in obedience to God's Word. The 2 great commandments Jesus gave...love God and love your neighbor, is summarized in the 10 Commandments. The first 4 Commandments deal with loving God, the last 6 deal with loving our neighbor.
These Commandments could never be set aside...none of them. To set them aside is to take the definition of sin away. Sin is the transgression of the law. If there is no law, there is no sin. If there is no sin, we don't need a Savior. Psalms tells us that God's law is perfect, converting the soul. If it's perfect, why then would it need to be set aside, only to be reinstated (except for the Sabbath)?
I'll be so bold as to tell you why. Time is our most important asset. Man does not want to give up any of his time. Yet God wants 1 day a week of our time. That is a day He gave us to spend time with Him, and a day for us to rest from our labors. And people will argue over that day. How sad.
And I have to ask...how is Jesus a Sabbath? He isn't a day. Shall we now rest from our labors 7 days a week. Now we are sluggards. I have a lot of trouble with the application of this phrase "Jesus is our Sabbath." Fancy words to help justify not giving to God that day He asks for, His Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for man, for the BENEFIT of man...not man for the Sabbath. There is a blessing in the Sabbath. Men don't want that blessing for some reason.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 2:01:43 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 993
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies
...So we set aside the commandment regarding the Sabbath, because we now walk in the spirit of the law??? That's what I'm hearing. Correct me if I'm wrong. Paul says that grace doesn't set aside the law, he says it establishes it.
If you walk in the Spirit (being patient, loving, kind, forgiving, gentle...) you will automatically fulfill and uphold the requirements of the law. What law can you be guilty of violating if you walk in all the traits of the Spirit? Walking in the Spirit is spelled out for us in Galatians and it doesn't include any outward ceremonial aspect of the Old Covenant. It's about character now, not deceitful and powerless outward religousity.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies
SpongeBlog wrote the following:
quote:
We have been set free from the external restraints of the law to focus on what really counts--Christlike character. Christ like character is one who walks according to all the the Father commanded. Hello??? Anyone miss this?
Christ was born and lived under the time of the law. Would we expect Him to do anything less than what the literal requirements of the Old Covenant were at this time? The law did not change until after His death and resurrection. There are some things that used to be required during the time of the law that simply aren't required anymore. Jesus kept them then because they were required then. His character is what we are to pattern our lives on, not His outward external worship of God which has changed now to internal worship 'in Spirit and in truth'.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies
Let me ask...what did Jesus set us free from? He set us free from sin. He didn't set us free to sin. To say we are free from the restraints of the law is to say we are free to break that law, to sin. Why can the Christian now sin when the non-Christian can't?
Before you get too involved in this thread be aware that this is about the outward requirements for worship under the law, not the requirements of the law that are already a direct expression of walking in the fruit of the Spirit in the NT. NOBODY here has said we are free to murder, steal, or lie, or whatever. This is about the external requirements for worship specified in the law--that means the Sabbath for this particular thread.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 9:34:19 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 993
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies
...Vs. 16. If we are led of the spirit, we walk according to vs 22-23. Against such there is no law. But there is a law against the works of the flesh as found in vs 19-22.
If we walk according to the flesh we are under the law. If we walk according to the spirit, we are not under the law. Notice how important this is.
We are also told that we are not under the law but under grace.
Boom...a connection is made IMO.
If we walk according to the flesh, we are under the law, meaning we are under the condemnation of the law.
If we walk according to the spirit, there is no law against this, therefore we are not under the condemnation of the law...we are not under the law. And, if we are not under the law, then we are now under grace...because...we once sinned and walked according to the flesh, and now grace is applied. We ask for forgiveness, and grace is there. We are now under grace.
No disagreement here. Few people actually understand what you've written here...I mean as far as knowing what walking in the Spirit really looks like, and that they have to actually be walking in the Spirit for this to be true.
Walking in the Spirit renders the law powerless to condemn a person as if it had been nailed to a cross. But Paul makes it clear what walking in the Spirit looks like. Outward worship requirements are not listed or even implied. In Colossians 2 Paul explains our freedom from the external law and moves us into what we should be doing in the Spirit in chapter 3. When read as a continous text it becomes clear what life in the Spirit looks like, and it doesn't include the outward worship requirements of the Old Covenant.
And Paul goes so far as to say don't let anyone judge you in regard to the (un)observance of those things anymore. I know you probably see the exact opposite, but it's easy to see he's talking about being judged about not observing those things when you examine it.
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ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies
What then, shall we break the law. God forbid. Yet those of us who say that we should keep the law are now legalists. We aren't saying we should keep the law in order to be saved. We are saying that we keep the law because that is the New Covenant...God say in Jer. 31 that He would make a New Covenant with his people, and that He would write his law upon their heart and in their mind. This is repeated in Heb 8 as well.
Some are legalists, but I don't broad stroke all Sabbath keepers into the legalist category. I personally give everyone the benefit of the doubt that they aren't doing it unto salvation until they tip their cards and show otherwise, which happens often. And it's certainly true that God's requirements are written on the heart of the NT believer now. But that doesn't negate the fact that some of those requirements have changed.
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ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies
Those who are under the New Covenant will have His law written upon their hearts...now, it is a joy to them to walk according to Gods Word, it is no longer a burden. In the Old Covenant, man tried to keep the law under his own power, he made the promise and couldn't keep it. In the New Covenant, the promise is of God, not of man. Man's power vs. the Power of God...the difference between the New and the Old Covenant.
It's not that simple. I can list several things that aren't the same anymore from the Old to the New. It's definately a new ball game. God didn't give us the Spirit in order to keep the letter of the law. He gave us the Spirit to be a different person who doesn't need to rely on external restraints of worship to relate to God sincerely and from the heart (as if those restraints could ever do that anyway).
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ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies
These Commandments could never be set aside...none of them. To set them aside is to take the definition of sin away. Sin is the transgression of the law. If there is no law, there is no sin. If there is no sin, we don't need a Savior. Psalms tells us that God's law is perfect, converting the soul. If it's perfect, why then would it need to be set aside, only to be reinstated (except for the Sabbath)?
I can list several things that we both would agree have changed in the law that you and others are so sure can't change. Things that are sin today can certainly be defined by the law, but the opposite of what you quote from John is not true: Transgression of the law is sin is not true anymore. Can you see the difference between the two? Some things simply aren't sin anymore so John would have been incorrect to say transgression of the law is sin. But that is how you and others are reading what he is saying when he is not saying that.
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ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies
I'll be so bold as to tell you why. Time is our most important asset. Man does not want to give up any of his time. Yet God wants 1 day a week of our time. That is a day He gave us to spend time with Him, and a day for us to rest from our labors. And people will argue over that day. How sad.
I know this is how you judge it from your point of view, but as a person matures in Christ they lay hold of ever-increasing spiritual revelation. I too once judged people for the liberties they took that I was sure they were not entitled to as Christians. But as I grew and entered into some myself I realized how wrong I was to judge them.
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ORIGINAL: LoveYourEnemies
And I have to ask...how is Jesus a Sabbath? He isn't a day. Shall we now rest from our labors 7 days a week. Now we are sluggards. I have a lot of trouble with the application of this phrase "Jesus is our Sabbath." Fancy words to help justify not giving to God that day He asks for, His Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for man, for the BENEFIT of man...not man for the Sabbath. There is a blessing in the Sabbath. Men don't want that blessing for some reason.
Until you have spiritual eyes to see you won't be able to grasp this. It's a spiritual understanding that requires you to have the courage to leave the box of the law keeping indoctrination to see. The limitation you have has been called the Hebraic mindset. And I think that is very accurate. The Jews are famous for failing to lay hold of spiritual truth with spiritual eyes and hearts. They have great difficulty operating outside of the literal. I'm convinced some people are simply wired from birth to relate to things in the way of the literal and have a problem grasping spiritual truth. It's the very resistance that both Paul and Jesus had to contend with. I understand their frustration completly.
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 11:51:19 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1066
Joined: 4/4/2006
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If you who teach that the we need to keep the literal law. Then stop and eating pork and shrimp or anything that God has said was detestable. Also don't have anyone do any physical labor on the seven day. You are as people who wear an clean outside garment on but inside you are full of much worse sins.
You do this stuff out of a command, not out of love and if you write that you don't. Then quit being so particular on the crossing the Tee's. The laws on which were to be written on our hearts was a love factor inside of us. Not if I got up a certain day and went somewhere and did this or that.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 12:17:48 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1066
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LBolt,
I couldn't help but notice that you a passage in your reply using a story where Jesus and the disciples where walking through a field on the seven day and began to picking and eating grain. Notice that their are two things which were broken laws in that story. First, going into some-one's land and taking grain without asking for it. Two, they actual, and this is why the others Rabbis got on Jesus case and the disciples was that they were doing physical labor on the seven day of the week.
At the end of Jesus speech, watch very carefully in what he said in verse 8. "For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." Notice that he didn't use day. For what reason would Jesus and the writer of the story leave day off?
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 3:28:53 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 941
Joined: 11/30/2007
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quote:
Then stop and eating pork and shrimp or anything that God has said was detestable.
I did. LOL
LBolt,
I couldn't help but notice that you a passage in your reply using a story where Jesus and the disciples where walking through a field on the seven day and began to picking and eating grain. Notice that their are two things which were broken laws in that story. First, going into some-one's land and taking grain without asking for it
According to Torah, I think Lev. 19, you were not to glean the entire field as it was reserved for the poor, widows, fatherless... The point was they were hungry and needed food. YHWH desire mercy, that's why David was considered innocent when him and his men were given some of the Shew Bread while they were running from Saul. This bread was appointed for the priests however David partook of it. So to answer the first part of your statement , no they were not stealing.
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Two, they actual, and this is why the others Rabbis got on Jesus case and the disciples was that they were doing physical labor on the seven day of the week.
Number 2 is already answered. Jesus nor His disciples broke God's Law. If He did He wouldn't have been a sinless sacrifice. We would all be doomed.
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"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Which is why I keep it. Lev. 23:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. 3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings...
Sabbath is on of the Feasts of the Lord.
Isa. 58: 13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Exo. 20:10 but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Deut. 5:14: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
Guess what, He is the LORD of the Sabbath!
It'll be around in the Millenial Kingdom, Isa. 66 so it future, It was around when he commanded it and in the beginning, Gen. 2 and apparently it was to be around in the end-time (Matt. 24:20-"But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day..)
It was, is and is to come! LOL
The question is will we obey His command?
This day is His day because He declared it as such and we rest on this day and convocate #1. because He says so and #2. it commerated the creation and Him resting on the 7th day.
< Message edited by LBolt -- 3/18/2008 10:12:50 AM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 3:56:49 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 941
Joined: 11/30/2007
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quote:
The limitation you have has been called the Hebraic mindset.
I found an interesting article in the latest edition of Time magazine. The title of the article said something to the effect, "The 10 Ideas Which are Shaping the World."
It chronicles technological changes, scientific, entertainment based and religious. The 10th idea that is was rather interesting. They say this having impact on major theological universities... It is the studying the life and teaching of Jesus from a Jewish perspective gaining a 1st and 2nd century understanding of the culture in which Christ was born!!
It's a very interesting article to say the least. I'm finding that a lot of people (scholars, theologians...) appreciate studying the Gospels as well as the word of God from a Jewish standpoint. Whether you like it or not, their is a spiritual shifting taking place and those who are brave enough, are breaking out of the Greek, Hellenistic mode of scripture understanding and drinking from our rich hebraic heritage!
Yes, Sabbath keeping is very much Hebrew! Just as well as saying "Amen" and "HalleluYah" which must of probably say!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 9:46:28 PM
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sudzer
Posts: 29
Joined: 2/13/2008
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We can go around this mountain, like the children of Isreal for 40 years, who by the way went around because of their disobedence to God, or we can take what scripture says and put it upon our hearts. We have been taught a Catholic tradition with all it's arguments and siffering of scripture to prove their point, or we can do some soul searching and pray for wisdom and revelation. LBolt, I too beleive that we are being drawn to our Hebrew tree. God is not mocked. The point being the the Sabbath was changed by the Catholic church period, there are no other arguments. Even the Catholic agree on this. The Jewish people have kept the LOrd's Sabbath the same for over 5000 years. But we keep the worship of the Sun God on Sunday because we are taught that this is so. No Scriptural base to the changing of the law at all. All the arguments can be summed up by reading why Constantine changed the Sabbath. He did not want to worship God and on the same day as the Jews because they killed Jesus. By the way Martin Luther keept the Sabbath on Sat. Just some history for you all. May The LOrd Our God open our minds to understanding the scriptures. Blessing Sudzer
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