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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/25/2008 2:30:09 PM
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Dred
Posts: 229
Joined: 10/11/2007
From: Alabama
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"One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God."
--Romans 14:5-6
If you observe the day for the Lord rather than under the compulsion of law, I rejoice with you.
"Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God."
--Galatians 4:1-6
“Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."
--John 8:34-36
quote:
The word "ordinances" is the Greek word "dogmas". Is God's Word filled with opinionated man-made teachings?
You can find a correct definition for the Greek word "dogma" here:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1378&version=nas
_____________________________
"We count any belief in Him, even the smallest belief, better than any belief about Him." --from Robert Falconer, by George MacDonald
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/25/2008 5:29:20 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 888
Joined: 11/30/2007
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I used the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. The implications from the text tells us that it was not referring to the inspired text of the Word of God. If you are implying this then you are wrong. The scriptures are God breath words. Not vain philosophy of man! Roman 14 has nothing to do with Sabbath or convocating at all. It's dealing with fast days and the eating of certain foods. One ate foods the Bible declared cleaned someone else ate only veggies. The KoG is not meat or drink but righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost...We are to love our brother of weaker faith and not offend them with our liberties.
BeJay, in the law thread discussed what "under the law" meant. I suggest you go there.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/25/2008 6:26:54 PM
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Dred
Posts: 229
Joined: 10/11/2007
From: Alabama
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quote:
I used the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.
Are you telling me you found in the lexicon which comes with your Strong's concordance a definition of the Greek "dogma" given to be "opinionated man-made teachings"? If so, I apologize for thinking you were careless in defining it. I'd be surprised to see that definition in a non-sectarian lexicon, especially considering the word's usage in the NT, but I don't claim to be a Greek scholar myself.
You will see or not see what you will in the scriptures I cited and you should honor what you honestly believe to be their meaning. If you disagree with me about anything, I am not one for fruitless disputing, but I would only encourage you to trust in the heart of the person we call Jesus Christ and do as He tells you. If we both do that, we'll both be proceeding in the right direction on all counts.
_____________________________
"We count any belief in Him, even the smallest belief, better than any belief about Him." --from Robert Falconer, by George MacDonald
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/25/2008 8:48:33 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 888
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I login in at a library which unfortunately I have to rely on my memory. The Strong's word dogma does not say "opinionated man-made teachings." The word "opinion" from an authority came up. Using the context from the rest of the text, I know it's referring to the rabbinic decrees as these were the "judaizers" Paul disputed with.
It strikes me as odd that the OT argues very emphatic that one should keep the Sabbath only for it to be "done away with" or "fulfilled therefore useless" in the NT. Most of the NT is a quote from OT writings.
BTW, I was witnessing today to a Jewish gentleman from Russia, not a religious person at all but not ignorant. He stated that the RCC has stripped the "Jewishness" of the Bible and has promoted a lot of anti-semitism, which is what a lot of Protestant has inherited.
He's very eager to go to Shabbat service (He and his fiance) because the fact we are teaching Jesus and Torah intrigues him. I really believe that when we as a BoC really began to rightly divide the scriptures, walk in Torah we'll cause our Jewish brethren to turn and see what going on! We already preach Jesus! That should not and will not cease. But as Rev. 12:17 says, "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ"
When we have that one, two punch combination, we'll be a more effective entity. With all that said, I contend that the Sabbath is for today, the future...to deny so is to deny the plain Word of God.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/26/2008 11:28:05 AM
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Dred
Posts: 229
Joined: 10/11/2007
From: Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I login in at a library which unfortunately I have to rely on my memory. The Strong's word dogma does not say "opinionated man-made teachings." The word "opinion" from an authority came up. Using the context from the rest of the text, I know it's referring to the rabbinic decrees as these were the "judaizers" Paul disputed with.
It's NT usage seems to indicate that it's primary meaning carries the idea of some kind of legal decree, such as when Ceasar decreed a census. That would seem appropriate to use of purely man-made rabbinic decrees, but it could be used of any sort of decree. It's usage in the context of the verse I mentioned does not at all seem to indicate some meaningless man-made decree carrying no weight with God:
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
I cannot imagine why we would have any need for an "opinionated man-made teaching", as you put it, to be taken out of our way by nailing it to the cross. Surely the atonement had to do with decrees that carried some weight with God. Do I have a debt needing to be canceled through the atonement resulting from my breaking a man-made rule which should never have been made?
quote:
It strikes me as odd that the OT argues very emphatic that one should keep the Sabbath only for it to be "done away with" or "fulfilled therefore useless" in the NT. Most of the NT is a quote from OT writings.
You probably meant to say "Much of the NT" rather than "most of the NT" which would certainly not be the case. I can understand how what you mentioned would seem odd, but I think one could have the same feeling from much that was set aside for the gentile believers in Acts 15. I can't imagine anything not mentioned there being considered implicit more than what the Jews traditionally expected of decent Gentiles (the Noahide Laws did not include the Sabbath, if I am remembering correctly).
quote:
BTW, I was witnessing today to a Jewish gentleman from Russia, not a religious person at all but not ignorant. He stated that the RCC has stripped the "Jewishness" of the Bible and has promoted a lot of anti-semitism, which is what a lot of Protestant has inherited.
Thanks for sharing that. I love the Jewish people and believe they still have a special place as a race before God (though they need Christ). The NT does not at all teach that Jews should lose their Jewishness when coming to faith in Christ. Christians have done them a great harm over the centuries by promoting such an idea. The only question in Acts 15 was whether the gentiles should become Jews in order to be Christians. It seems obvious that the Jewish Christians were still observant Jews; otherwise, there would have been no question about what to do with the Gentiles. But I'm getting off topic which is considered a great offense here.
quote:
He's very eager to go to Shabbat service (He and his fiance) because the fact we are teaching Jesus and Torah intrigues him. I really believe that when we as a BoC really began to rightly divide the scriptures, walk in Torah we'll cause our Jewish brethren to turn and see what going on! We already preach Jesus! That should not and will not cease. But as Rev. 12:17 says, "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ"
When we have that one, two punch combination, we'll be a more effective entity.
What is a BoC? I can certainly relate to your motives here and your desire to connect with our Jewish roots. I have the same desire, but am not sure how far I can or should go with that, being a gentile. Personally, I place the Sabbath with the festivals, dietary regulations, etc. They are ceremonial observances which have their substance in Christ. I can see observing them and have desire to do so in some cases, not out of duty or obligation, but to celebrate their substance which is Christ. Otherwise, my law is love because my life is Christ.
The substance, which is Christ, is certainly for all eternity, so I leave you with the last word.
quote:
With all that said, I contend that the Sabbath is for today, the future...to deny so is to deny the plain Word of God.
_____________________________
"We count any belief in Him, even the smallest belief, better than any belief about Him." --from Robert Falconer, by George MacDonald
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/26/2008 12:22:32 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 888
Joined: 11/30/2007
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BoC is my short-hand rendition of Body of Christ. LOL
The Context to which I was refering to was the 2nd chapter of Colosians. The parts where I bolded in the verse, appears to be referring to the oral law as this was a strong pervasive doctrine in 2nd Temple period. It's was also refered to as the "tradition of the elders" by Jesus in the Gospels. Plus gnostism crept in and it cause a lot of falsehoods to circulate among the ekklesia
quote:
I can see observing them and have desire to do so in some cases, not out of duty or obligation, but to celebrate their substance which is Christ. Otherwise, my law is love because my life is Christ.
Amen!! I respect you and your dialogue tremendously. I appreciate your diligence in the LORD.
I listened to Dr. Ted Broer a several months ago, who is a physician. He urges believers to it kosher because of the various health risks involved with eating pork, shrimp etc. He stated that eating shrimp was the equivilent to eating cockroaches! Yuck!! He stated that our diet is causing many heart related issues as well as other disorders. I believe YHWH desired us to have abundant life!!
There was a lady in another thread who testified that she had contracted Hepatitis (B?) from a blood transfusion prior to being married and did not know she had it. She stated that she refrain from sexual intercourse during her menstrual cycle out of obedience to Leviticus. Had she had had unprotected intercourse before it was discovered and treated she could have passed this disease to her husband. I believe God desires to protect us from a lot of things therefore, there are certain restrictions of sorts. We also must keep in mind that we have more sanitary practices today such as tampons...that do not require so strict of measures to be taken.
In Acts 15, it was the pharisees who came to faith in Jesus, that brought such contentions. A good study in Judiasm and the context tells me that this was regarding disputes concerning the oral law. In fact in Judiasm, one had to be baptized after their prescribed ritualistic way and keep oral law (which was regarded as the Law of Moses) and written Torah in order to be saved. I could elaborate more on this but will refrain... If you ever talk to an Orthodox Jew (Hasidic...) they will tell you that when the speak of "Law", it refers to both the written and oral law. It was and is today simply termed "the Law" or "the Law of Moses." Paul, being a Pharisee knew this very well. He even stated "concerning the law, that he was blameless..." in one of his epistles. He was a pharisees pharisee!! Concerning oral law he might have been blameless but concerning the written law all have sinned and fallen short...
That's why they ruled that our fathers was unable to keep it... The ruling was those 4 restrictions. It was understood that as the Torah was read on Sabbath they would learn more of God's word which will give greatly illumination as to how to live. Jesus said that His "yoke was easy and burden light" and John said that His "commandments are not grievous." A yoke was a rabbinic term meaning teachings, doctrine, interpretations and instructions. The Torah really is a lot easier than you think!
BTW, please pray that this young man will give his heart to Jesus (him and his fiance). Dred, I don't want to be a stumbling block of sorts for people to receive Jesus. It's not about Sabbath when it comes to Jesus. It's about you receiving Him into your heart first and foremost.
I know Dred, from your responses that you genuinely love souls and I know you will pray. God Bless
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/28/2008 11:38:47 AM
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jk99
Posts: 29
Joined: 5/24/2005
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Recently, I had a conversation with someone who implied to me that by not understanding that Saturday was the real Sabbath, that we as Christians were purposefully disobeying G**. I am not sure or quite fully understand this topic as much as I should. Does any one here have some references or can discuss this topic as it applies to this issue. My only comment to this person was we were free from such law and if a Saturday or a Sunday it seemed to matter little to me. Their reply was to say it was clearly G**’s law and one we should follow?
Is there a difference and if in fact it is cited as 1 of the 10 commandments then why don't we practice this and if so why is it a Sunday now when did it get switched?
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/28/2008 3:35:12 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 888
Joined: 11/30/2007
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Gosh jk99, there is a lot you present here. I can can given you some information, someone else from the other camp will give you some information, but it is up to you to do the research. Let me start by saying that Sabbath was established in the creation. Gen. 2:1-3. Yes it is in the 10 Commandments. No, it hasn't been amended.
Church history reveals that that the RCC under Constantine began to observe Sunday and other non-Bible traditions in order to convert more pagans to the faith who were unwilling to give up their practices. Growing anti-Semitism led to the changing of a lot of God's Word.
You'll pretty much get those who come from 3 camps. Those who believe Sabbath is for today, those who believe Sabbath is just for the Jews and those who believe that the Sabbath Commandment is not binding today having it's fulfilment in Christ. Of course some believe that everyday is the Sabbath because we have Christ.
I would suggest you do a little study of Judiasm, in order to get an understanding of the culture and mindset of the religious leaders in the times of Jesus.
I would study Jeremiah 31:31-41, Hebrews 7-8. Find out what the New Covenant is? I can tell you that Sabbath is for today and I know it is but you must search for the answers for yourself. Search the Scriptures, get a Strong concordance, do research on the Emperor Constantine and the Roman Catholic Church. Read our threads but do the research yourself. Attend a Messianic congregation and ask questions. But more than anything else, do your own independent study. I can tell you one thing someone else can tell you another but ultimately it's the Holy Spirit and your willingness to search that will give you the answers. Don't just take somebody else's word. Be a Berean and I promise you, you will see.
When you look at the 10 Commandments what wrong with it? If Paul called it "good" and "holy" why would it need to be done away with. Heb. 8 reveals that the problem was with the people and not the Law! The New Covenant is the Law written on our heart...
Well, take my above advise and do the research and I hope to hear from you again to see what you discern to be right.
P.S. This is not a salvation issue. You were saved when you accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior! This is an issue of right practice. God Bless!
Oh BTW, according to the accounts in Gen 1, a day is reckon from sundown to sundown. So Sabbath would officially begin on Friday sundown to Saturday sundown.
< Message edited by LBolt -- 3/28/2008 5:02:14 PM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/28/2008 4:12:18 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 888
Joined: 11/30/2007
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"Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever days she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The Church choose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in course of time added other days as holy days."
-John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies, vol. 1, p. 5, 1936
"Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday...Now the Church...instituted, by God's authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was made. We have, therefore, the same authority for purgatory as we have for Sunday."
-Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About, p. 136, 1927
"Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the Christian Sunday, I wish to draw your attention to the facts:
"1) That Protestants, who accept the Bible as the only rule of faith and religion, should by all means go back to the observance of the Sabbath. The fact that they do not, but on the contrary observe the Sunday, stultifies them in the eyes of every thinking man.
"2) We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith. Beside the Bible we have the living Church, the authority of the Church, as a rule of guide. We say, this Church, instituted by Christ to teach and guide man through life, has the right to change the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday. We frankly say, yes, the Church made this change, made this law, as she made many other laws, for instance, the Friday abstinence, the unmarried priesthood, the laws concerning mixed marriages, the regulation of Catholic marriages and a thousand other laws.
It is always somewhat laughable, to see the Protestant churches, in pulpit and legislation, demand the observance of Sunday, of which there is nothing in their Bible."
-Peter R. Kraemer, Catholic Church Extension Society, 1975
"We move from 'Sabbath' to the 'first day after the Sabbath', from the seventh day to the first day: the Dies Domini becomes the Dies Christi!...By contrast, the Sabbath's position as the seventh day of the week suggests for the Lord's Day a complimentary symbolism, much loved by the Fathers. Sunday is not only the first day, it is also 'the eight day', set within the sevenfold succession of days..."
-Pope John Paul II, Apostolic Letter, Dies Domini, Vatican, May 31, 1998
"When St. Paul repudiated the works of the law, he was not thinking of the Ten Commandments, which are as unchangeable as God Himself is, which God could not change and still remain the infinitely holy God."
-Our Sunday Visitor, Oct. 7, 1951
This is a little taste of what some Catholics have to say on the matter. I'll give some Protestant quotes.
Here's one from the great reformer Martin Luther in his commentary on Exodus 16:4, 22-30, in regard to Sabbath:
"Hence you can see that the Sabbath was before the the Law of Moses came, and has existed from the beginning of the world. Especially have the devout, who have preserved the true faith, met together and called upon God on this day."
-- This was translated from Auslegung des Alten Testament (Commentary on the Old Testament), in Sammtliche Schriften (Collect Writings), edited by J.G. Walch, Vol. 3, col. 950 [St. Louis edition of Luther's Works, 1880])
"Luther himself, while it is said believed in and practiced the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath, did not prescribe it in his articles of faith for his followers, in the copies that we now have access to. However, it has been said that in his original thesis, Luther advocated the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath, but that his colleagues objected on the grounds that it was an unpopular doctrine, which would have a tendency to repulse supporters of the Reformation who were not as pious as they should have been, but were of great assistance against the usurpations of the papacy."
-Dugger and Dodd, A History of the True Religion, pp. 196-197
"But, the moral law contained in the ten commandments, and enforced by the prophets, He (Christ) did not take away. It was not the design of His coming to revoke any part of this. This is a law which never can be broken...Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind, and in all ages; as not depending either on time or place, or any other circumstances liable to change, but on the nature of God and the nature of man, and their unchangeable relation to each other."
--John Wesley, The Works of the Rev. John Wesley, A.M., John Emory, ser. 25, vol. 1, p. 221
This only a little bit of quotes by well-known and not so well known men of God. It's interesting how they contradict themselves in deed.
By the way, Sponge, regarding an online Interlinear Bible, I haven't found a good link. My wife bought me one 2 years ago. It's called The Interlinear Bible, Hebrew, Greek and English. Sovereign Grace Publishers. It's pretty thick but I like it. It has the Strong's words over each word translated.
I'm going to post some more quotes.
"Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever days she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The Church choose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in course of time added other days as holy days."
-John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies, vol. 1, p. 5, 1936
"Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday...Now the Church...instituted, by God's authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was made. We have, therefore, the same authority for purgatory as we have for Sunday."
-Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About, p. 136, 1927
"Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the Christian Sunday, I wish to draw your attention to the facts:
"1) That Protestants, who accept the Bible as the only rule of faith and religion, should by all means go back to the observance of the Sabbath. The fact that they do not, but on the contrary observe the Sunday, stultifies them in the eyes of every thinking man.
"2) We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith. Beside the Bible we have the living Church, the authority of the Church, as a rule of guide. We say, this Church, instituted by Christ to teach and guide man through life, has the right to change the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday. We frankly say, yes, the Church made this change, made this law, as she made many other laws, for instance, the Friday abstinence, the unmarried priesthood, the laws concerning mixed marriages, the regulation of Catholic marriages and a thousand other laws.
It is always somewhat laughable, to see the Protestant churches, in pulpit and legislation, demand the observance of Sunday, of which there is nothing in their Bible."
-Peter R. Kraemer, Catholic Church Extension Society, 1975
"We move from 'Sabbath' to the 'first day after the Sabbath', from the seventh day to the first day: the Dies Domini becomes the Dies Christi!...By contrast, the Sabbath's position as the seventh day of the week suggests for the Lord's Day a complimentary symbolism, much loved by the Fathers. Sunday is not only the first day, it is also 'the eight day', set within the sevenfold succession of days..."
-Pope John Paul II, Apostolic Letter, Dies Domini, Vatican, May 31, 1998
"When St. Paul repudiated the works of the law, he was not thinking of the Ten Commandments, which are as unchangeable as God Himself is, which God could not change and still remain the infinitely holy God."
-Our Sunday Visitor, Oct. 7, 1951
This is a little taste of what some Catholics have to say on the matter. I'll give some Protestant quotes.
Here's one from the great reformer Martin Luther in his commentary on Exodus 16:4, 22-30, in regard to Sabbath:
"Hence you can see that the Sabbath was before the the Law of Moses came, and has existed from the beginning of the world. Especially have the devout, who have preserved the true faith, met together and called upon God on this day."
-- This was translated from Auslegung des Alten Testament (Commentary on the Old Testament), in Sammtliche Schriften (Collect Writings), edited by J.G. Walch, Vol. 3, col. 950 [St. Louis edition of Luther's Works, 1880])
"Luther himself, while it is said believed in and practiced the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath, did not prescribe it in his articles of faith for his followers, in the copies that we now have access to. However, it has been said that in his original thesis, Luther advocated the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath, but that his colleagues objected on the grounds that it was an unpopular doctrine, which would have a tendency to repulse supporters of the Reformation who were not as pious as they should have been, but were of great assistance against the usurpations of the papacy."
-Dugger and Dodd, A History of the True Religion, pp. 196-197
"But, the moral law contained in the ten commandments, and enforced by the prophets, He (Christ) did not take away. It was not the design of His coming to revoke any part of this. This is a law which never can be broken...Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind, and in all ages; as not depending either on time or place, or any other circumstances liable to change, but on the nature of God and the nature of man, and their unchangeable relation to each other."
--John Wesley, The Works of the Rev. John Wesley, A.M., John Emory, ser. 25, vol. 1, p. 221
This only a little bit of quotes by well-known and not so well known men of God. It's interesting how they contradict themselves in deed.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/28/2008 4:23:39 PM
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Dred
Posts: 229
Joined: 10/11/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline
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I have a question for you Lbolt (and others). Do you have some stipulation as to what constitutes breaking the sabbath? For example, if I say I am keeping my Sabbath because I engage in no tiresome work, but you see me riding my bicycle or taking my trash to the curb on Saturday, will you say I am a Sabbath breaker?
_____________________________
"We count any belief in Him, even the smallest belief, better than any belief about Him." --from Robert Falconer, by George MacDonald
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2008 12:44:38 AM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dred
"One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God."
--Romans 14:5-6
Romans 14 has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it is acceptable to ignore commandments of God. Verse one talks about "doubtful things". I'm sure we both realise that the Law of God is not something doubtful. Please, take a little time to look over the linked file below:
http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Rm%2014%20&%20Sabbath.pdf
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2008 12:49:18 AM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dred
I have a question for you Lbolt (and others). Do you have some stipulation as to what constitutes breaking the sabbath? For example, if I say I am keeping my Sabbath because I engage in no tiresome work, but you see me riding my bicycle or taking my trash to the curb on Saturday, will you say I am a Sabbath breaker?
I'm a Paramedic and I work on the Sabbath often. However, that is not a violation of the Sabbath because I am in a position to alleviate human suffering and perhaps save a life. However, if I were a construction worker it would be absolutely wrong for me to work on the Sabbath. If you are really interested in learning about the Sabbath and what someone like me believes I would like to recommend an excellent sermon series:
http://www.bethimmanuel.org/audio-archives.html
There are also other good sermon series at that link on Acts and Hebrews.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2008 12:58:51 AM
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iSERVEaJEW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Good to here from you Dred! In Leviticus 23, we are told to congregate on the Sabbath. I don't agree with the many rabbinical commands which are very legalistic. If you have to work due to job restraint, I wouldn't advise quitting my job. Just pray and believe you may have the day off.
Who are you going to obey - God or man? If your job isn't an acceptable one for the Sabbath then it is absolutely wrong to work that day. That isn't some Rabbinical command, that is the commandment of God.
http://www.bethimmanuel.org/audio-archives.html
I was thoroughly blessed by this sermon series on the Sabbath. Everyone I know who is pro-Sabbath shares my sentiment.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2008 10:41:07 AM
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LBolt
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God bless Jew, I believe you grow into it. It may be unwise to just up and quit your job. I'm a National Guardsman. I drill on weekends. I'm not a EMT worker. If I decide not to show up, I'd be considered AWOL and depending on certain work status could face possible jail time. This sounds to me that you are a little legalistic. Some people may not be able to get off or maybe trying to resolve work conflicts. I think YHWH knows and understands this.
First off, I would start by attending a service on Sabbath. BTW, I am pro-Sabbath just pro-realistic and believe in exercising common sense, IMO
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2008 11:58:30 AM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
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Do not call me legalistic. I am not passing judgement on you, I am merely relating the clear teaching of Scripture. If you think that you have an exemption from that "no work" commandment then that is between you, Him, and your community. To me, it sounds like you do have an exemption for military service.
I really think you should listen to that sermon series on the Sabbath. You might find that we're talking about the same thing, but in a different way.
http://www.bethimmanuel.org/audio-archives.html
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2008 12:03:24 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 827
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
God bless Jew, I believe you grow into it. It may be unwise to just up and quit your job. I'm a National Guardsman. I drill on weekends. I'm not a EMT worker. If I decide not to show up, I'd be considered AWOL and depending on certain work status could face possible jail time. This sounds to me that you are a little legalistic. Some people may not be able to get off or maybe trying to resolve work conflicts. I think YHWH knows and understands this.
First off, I would start by attending a service on Sabbath. BTW, I am pro-Sabbath just pro-realistic and believe in exercising common sense, IMO
You might say that what you have written is what YHWH is thinking. Yet he may give you this responce when you come to the white throne. No one can serve to masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and dispise the other. You can not serve both YHWH and money.
Not to say you serve money but again if you had to work on that day and it meant money in your back pocket. Then he could use that statement on you. For if you look at the story in Old testatment where in the wilderness they could only gather mana during the first six days. Then if they tried togather it on the seventh day it would rot on them. This why I say that this rules that are in the ten commandents are hard to keep as written.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2008 6:21:21 PM
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LBolt
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Hey Jew, I meant no harm. I have a buddy who is this boat and he has to go to work after service. Thank God that his scheduled just changed recently and he is off work on Sabbath. However, he didn't just quir his job or decided not to show up for work.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2008 6:27:36 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
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From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Hey Jew, I meant no harm. I have a buddy who is this boat and he has to go to work after service. Thank God that his scheduled just changed recently and he is off work on Sabbath. However, he didn't just quir his job or decided not to show up for work.
In Canada, we can go to our employer and ask for religious holidays off. I don't know the specifics of his situation, but if it wasn't halachically permissible for him to work on the Shabbat then he was sinning. If his only reason for working was to provide a paycheck for his family then is that right? If his work interferes with his keeping the Shabbat then he needs to find another job.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2008 6:34:47 PM
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LBolt
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It was back and forth with his employer, however some employers look after their bottom line. In the military, they may give you an alotted time (usually a couple off hours) for religious purposes. But the mantra is "the mission comes first."
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2008 6:42:50 PM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
It was back and forth with his employer, however some employers look after their bottom line. In the military, they may give you an alotted time (usually a couple off hours) for religious purposes. But the mantra is "the mission comes first."
Yeah, a military situation probably qualifies as halachically permissible. I'm a Paramedic and I work on the Sabbath too and it is halachically permissible for me to do so. I think the necessary training this soldier has to do on the Sabbath is permissible.
If you ever go to Jerusalem you will see police, soldiers, and ambulances about town on the Sabbath. However, Jewish businesses are almost always closed on the Sabbath and there aren't any buses running. The vast majority of the cars you see on the road are Arab taxis. The Jewish parts of the city shut down and it is beautiful.
Have you checked out the Sabbath sermon series?
http://www.bethimmanuel.org/audio-archives.html
< Message edited by iSERVEaJEW -- 4/1/2008 6:49:17 PM >
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 4/1/2008 7:40:33 PM
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LBolt
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I haven't had the oppty to listen yet but I will. quote:
The Jewish parts of the city shut down and it is beautiful. I bet it is. I'm currently looking for employment at the present moment. I guess you can say that I have a job. Trying to get one! Please pray for me.
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to | | |
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