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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/4/2008 11:27:54 AM
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mcleod
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Larry don't take me wrong and I hope that I don't take you wrong either. We do enter into a rest for that what the Lord Jesus Christ ask us to do. When he ask for us to take his yoke. Learn from him, but because I have taken his yoke doesn't mean the evil-one doesn't want me to fail in my battles for the good.
I heard yesterday on the SDA network where a preacher was talking about the parable of the wedding found in Matthew 22. Where the King ask his son to go invited alot of people to the wedding. So ifyou need you can read it.
But to get to the point of the matter he even stated that it was a faith with works. Which to top it off with was with who obeserved the sabbath day. Holy my God can you even think that your works are great and that he is going to say a job well done. Enter my coiurts with thanksgiving. When you probably didn't show compassion to a person who was down and out. When maybe the only thing you did in your life was meet on the seventh day of the week.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/4/2008 1:56:51 PM
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sunshinesoprano
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Just an interjection here...
This discussion often reminds me of the things we argue about in church....
The color of carpet, whether you wear a tie when you take up the offering.
Not to trivialize the importance of this, but come on!
Do you really think that Christ gave His life so that we'd fight over this stuff? Do you really think He would deny someone entrance to Heaven that accepted His gift because we were worshipping Him on the wrong day?
Get real.
_____________________________
Pure Heart-Fresh, Progressive Southern Gospel
Sing, laugh, love, PRAISE!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/4/2008 4:56:03 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Larry don't take me wrong and I hope that I don't take you wrong either. We do enter into a rest for that what the Lord Jesus Christ ask us to do. When he ask for us to take his yoke. Learn from him, but because I have taken his yoke doesn't mean the evil-one doesn't want me to fail in my battles for the good.
I heard yesterday on the SDA network where a preacher was talking about the parable of the wedding found in Matthew 22....
Mclead,
I appreciate the spirit/attitude with which you responded. I didn't really want to address this on the open forum because I was concerned about people interfering. I was afraid it would suddenly open up a new can of worms and an additional rabbit trail.
I have always taken Jesus' words concerning His "yoke" as being a reference to believing and trusting Him as Savior. Whether or not it is the same thing the author of Hebrews is talking about (in exactly the same sense), I'll not venture at this time.
The reason I believe what I do about Hebrews' rest concerns the immediate context of the 3rd and 4th chapters of Hebrews. I took you to mean that you thought it referred to heaven. Is that what you meant? If you didn't, please tell me so that I won't have a mistaken notion about your view.
The "rest for the people of God" in Hebrews 4:9 refers, I believe to the Jewish people, specifically to those who have not accept Jesus Christ as the author of a New Covenant. They would still be "people of God" in the sense that they were His people from the Old Covenant, which they still were clinging to in stubborn unbelief. Thus, the author of Hebrews draws a parallel to between the OT Jews who were reluctant to trust God obediently when God was leading them into the Promised Land. The time frame was when the Old Covenant was just starting.
The parallel in Hebrews is that the Jews of the NT Era were stubbornly faithless about entering the "New Covenant Promised Land" (to coin a new phrase, please bear with me). That's why I think Hebrews 3 & 4 are somewhat key to the books interpretation, (IMHO).
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/4/2008 4:59:53 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1854
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano
Do you really think that Christ gave His life so that we'd fight over this stuff? Do you really think He would deny someone entrance to Heaven that accepted His gift because we were worshipping Him on the wrong day?
Get real.
I'm here to learn and to discuss. The forums have allowed me to explore things and to better understand His word. If you don't like this venue, then you don't have to comment. To me, it's better than sitting around staring at the Bible having only my own thoughts which admittedly could very be wrong at times.
So far as I know, no one has suggested that heaven would be denied to anyone for the day on which they worship. Frankly, I have said that God is not displeased in the least and will not curse nor abandon anyone for worshiping on Saturday or Sunday.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/4/2008 6:58:50 PM
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GrahamCracker
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p.progress said in post 2925:quote:
But how about this. For those who desire to 'keep' the weekly sabbath, as they are persuaded they are to do and want to do...how about if those who DON'T keep this or DON'T want to keep this, let them stop bothering...
You almost had me there until I read this next part of your post. I certainly respect those who feel they should keep it, so long as they realize that it is their own subjective belief that compels them. We have had some in this post who believe those of us who don't observe the Saturday/Sabbath are somehow "cursed" by God. Somehow, they want to make it sound like they are not judging anyone.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/4/2008 9:06:36 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2345
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quote:
BT:
I don't feel I must keep Shabbat. I feel I am privileged to be premitted to. Also, I never said anyone else "must keep it too". I am merely stating that there a certain blessings and curses associated with the keeping of Shabbat and if one wishes recieve those blessings and avoid those curses, one should keep Shabbat. If you believe I am wrong, please do not keep Shabbat, for what is not of faith is sin. Until I am presented with Scripture (new or old) that invalidates those blessings and curses, I will put my faith in the commandment of Adonai.
GC:
Come off it! If someone is cursed by not doing it, then they are not obeying God. What other sense or nonsense can one make of it? That, frankly, is a proverbial fence sitter. Either stand up and say that you believe we have to or stand up and say that you believe we don't have to. <tongue in cheek>: Is we or ain't we?</tongue in cheek> We cannot possibly "be cursed" for not doing it and at the same time not "have to" keep it--ALL CHRISTIANS!!!
Dear BlueT, with all love, hope you dont think we ganged up on you here, but i personally wont let you get away with this statement without additional explanation  
Not out of desire to argue, but you thorougly intrigued me with this blessings/curses. I would love to know what you meant and why you think so. Esp the curses part. Elaborate, please.
quote:
I don't feel I must keep Shabbat. I feel I am privileged to be premitted to.
With all the true respect to this, God knows I am honest- most of my family, friends, relatives, and myself until recently do keep it( even some, sadly ,reach clinically idiotic levels in this)I never felt any special value in it ,since conversion that is.
Please, do elaborate even if briefly, how do you observe it? What is included ? You study scriptures, you don’t work, I presume do you do something else? I am trying to figure out what do people like you get from it that the rest dont see?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/4/2008 9:53:47 PM
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p.progress
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
p.progress said in post 2925:quote:
But how about this. For those who desire to 'keep' the weekly sabbath, as they are persuaded they are to do and want to do...how about if those who DON'T keep this or DON'T want to keep this, let them stop bothering...[/quote]
You almost had me there until I read this next part of your post. I certainly respect those who feel they should keep it, so long as they realize that it is their own subjective belief that compels them. We have had some in this post who believe those of us who don't observe the Saturday/Sabbath are somehow "cursed" by God. Somehow, they want to make it sound like they are not judging anyone.
I'm sorry GC, but what exactly did you mean by "You almost had me there until I read this next part of your post"? Did you mean that I almost altogether persauded you; or deceived you (or other); and then I perhaps blew it or showed my true colors or what, by saying the next part that you quote above? If so, what did I perhaps 'almost' persuade you in or 'almost' deceive you (or otherwise) about? I'm not baiting you or challenging you or anything like that, if you're wondering if I am. I truly am interested in what you meant there.
You say: "I certainly respect those who feel they should keep it, so long as they realize that it is their own subjective belief that compels them"...and then, "We have had some in this post who believe those of us who don't observe the Saturday/Sabbath are somehow "cursed" by God. Somehow, they want to make it sound like they are not judging anyone."
Let me comment about the last two sentences first.
I have not read alot of the posts in this forum and I haven't read much or any of yours - but I'll check now to see if I have...I see that I have read a few of yours I believe, but not clear on precisely where you are in all this discussion as yet. SO now let me comment on the last two sentences of yours:
I respect them too. If they see that they are to keep the sabbath holy, then by all means I have no quarrel with them...as long as they do not do as you say you yourself have observed with some (or many) who end up doing what you are speaking about. That is judging you or others for NOT observing or keeping the [7th day] sabbath, and declaring that God himself judges you for not keeping the sabbath...and that with a 'curse'.
Those who go about their personal routine of life, and 'keep' the sabbath unto God, out of their love and reverence to him, believing as they obviously do, that the 4th commandment was not destroyed, anulled, done away with, or set aside; but is still unexplicably and inextricably interwoven with the other nine commandments: such who do this, are not likely to be so grossly brutish and dull witted as to then go about foolishly and childishly judging others that they do not. Not when they must be reasonable enough to think as well, that those who do not 'keep' the sabbath 'as they do'; don't do so out of knowledge but out of ignorance. I am saying it as they think of the sabbath. I do not keep the sabbath anymore, for this reason: I am not fully persuaded that it is in force...it well may be, I am just not fully convinced. I do not agree or appreciate the attitude of those who judge and act superior on either side of this issue.
More to say but no time.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2008 6:35:40 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1854
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I like the name p.progress. I assume it is abbreviated from Pilgrim's Progress??
quote:
I'm sorry GC, but what exactly did you mean by "You almost had me there until I read this next part of your post"? Did you mean that I almost altogether persauded you; or deceived you (or other); and then I perhaps blew it or showed my true colors or what, by saying the next part that you quote above?...
Well. You had a paragraph about an interpretation of Romans 14 that you appeared to endorse. It was apparently something you read in a book. I even called it a "mangled interpretation." After I read it, I realized that you were advancing ideas for the purpose of discussion, not something you were endorsing.
What I meant is that I thought you were saying something that I eventually decided you were not saying.
quote:
I respect them too. If they see that they are to keep the sabbath holy, then by all means I have no quarrel with them...as long as they do not do as you say you yourself have observed with some (or many) who end up doing what you are speaking about. That is judging you or others for NOT observing or keeping the [7th day] sabbath, and declaring that God himself judges you for not keeping the sabbath...and that with a 'curse'.
They have declared themselves "not judging" but then saying that they believe God will curse those who fail to keep the Saturday/Sabbath and will bless those who do keep it. It amounts to how they define "judging." Frankly, it appears that they want to have their cake and to eat it too.
Likewise, I have taken to task those who believe that God changed the Sabbath to Sunday based either upon the practice of the early church in Acts or based upon church tradition. But those have not been numerous in the last 2-3 weeks that I have been writing in this thread.
quote:
...such who do this, are not likely to be so grossly brutish and dull witted as to then go about foolishly and childishly judging others that they do not. Not when they must be reasonable enough to think as well, that those who do not 'keep' the sabbath 'as they do'; don't do so out of knowledge but out of ignorance. I am saying it as they think of the sabbath. I do not keep the sabbath anymore, for this reason: I am not fully persuaded that it is in force...it well may be, I am just not fully convinced. I do not agree or appreciate the attitude of those who judge and act superior on either side of this issue....
My personal non-reliable estimate is about 50 per cent of those who believe they should keep the Saturday/Sabbath appear to feel that I should also. The other 50 per cent seem to live and let live. Of course, the more active discussion is with those who are more passionate and dogmatic about their opinions.
I seem to be in the minority. Spongeblog and I share similar views regarding the Sabbath, to wit that we are in the New Covenant now and that there is no day to which God obligates us. I would like to add that something because they feel I am inconsistent. It is that I must somehow have to almost a antinomian because I don't believe we are compelled by the Ten Commandments to keep the Saturday Sabbath. It is as though there is nothing in the NT regarding adultery, murder, lying and so forth. They have not leveled this charge directly to me, but it appears in their posts.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2008 9:30:35 AM
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Abishua
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The 7th day Sabbath is still very much in effect, and will be for all eternity. It was never changed or abrogated.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2008 9:56:43 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
The 7th day Sabbath is still very much in effect, and will be for all eternity. It was never changed or abrogated.
Woe I like people who don't read the books and make a written statement to the fact like the one above. Read Revelation 22 :1-5. Then tell me that seventh day will always happen.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2008 10:06:06 AM
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mcleod
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No Larry we are on the same page it's not like heaven here. Where there we will indeed encounter true rest.
What I believe is what God's words stated are one thing I find to be true and another thing what I can rest in. Now to say that because I have put my rest in him and there is not going to be anymore wars with evil. Then I am sadly mistaken and so is everyone else who has that line of thought.
Gee I didn't realise that Iwas under a curse. I thought as being a follower of the God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Would allow me to have peace with them. Paul you have deceived me in your letters. Please drop a message out the spirit world and get us who think that it is the Lords doing and not ours. Straighten around in these maters.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2008 11:00:38 AM
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p.progress
Posts: 150
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
I like the name p.progress. I assume it is abbreviated from Pilgrim's Progress??
Yes, it is. No book outside of the Word of God itself, that I have read, is as discriptive of the Christian experience and walk, along with its perils, solitude, serious and sober reminders for the reason to endure to the end then Bunyan's tale in the Pilgrim's Progress and his other works. I am, you are, a pilgrim and stranger here and a pilgrim in progress reaching towards the mark.
quote:
I'm sorry GC, but what exactly did you mean by "You almost had me there until I read this next part of your post"? Did you mean that I almost altogether persauded you; or deceived you (or other); and then I perhaps blew it or showed my true colors or what, by saying the next part that you quote above?...
Well. You had a paragraph about an interpretation of Romans 14 that you appeared to endorse. It was apparently something you read in a book. I even called it a "mangled interpretation." After I read it, I realized that you were advancing ideas for the purpose of discussion, not something you were endorsing.
What I meant is that I thought you were saying something that I eventually decided you were not saying.
No I don't endorse it, but neither can I properly or justly refute the explanation presented therein as yet. I need more light on that particular area of study to do either.
GrahamCracker, I really am only interested in the truth and the facts of the truth on this and all other questions relating to the revelation and teachings of the scriptures. I once 'kept' sabbath with my wife and children. I was convinced not so much at that time that the sabbath was to be 'kept' by believers as I had become thoroughly convinced through my studies that the first day of the week was not what I had been taught, absorbed and assumed it was, both from my surrounding western culture and then my associations within the professing (evanglical) Christian groups I once assembled with. I was challenged by someone to consider this question, and set out to 'prove them wrong'...because 'I knew' they were wrong...they had to be wrong, 'cause I was not being taught what they were claiming, not in my circles; and my circles had to be right, 'cause they were right about the nature of God, Christ and the Gospel. That is of course how we all are apt to think, without even really being conscious that we think so. I think at least here you would agree with me.
My path of study acted to cause me to brake through the 'fishbowl' mentality (concepts and paradigms) I had in that area. I never even thought to question what I had been taught and 'caught' (by osmosis) in the religious circles I had become affiliated with, accustomed and adapted myself to. I had gone down the same path in other areas of study and found myself having to adjust my thinking to become more in harmony with the teachings of scriptures to that which I had previously 'thought' was the teaching of scripture on this or that subject. But this area was not on the 'radar' so to speak - untill now (back then).
The short of it is this. After awhile I starting another inquire into whether or not the sabbath was TO BE KEPT. It had become clear that the Sunday dogma's were not supported by scripture; but I had jumped the gun - a natural reaction - and then assumed too much about the issues surrounding the sabbath, by too quickly moving into "Well then, we are to keep the sabbath day still". After some time I stopped to think it all through again, and it was then that I began to doubt the strength of the claims that the sabbath was for those under the new covenant.
To make this even shorter. I am still ready to examine any further light that can be shed upon this question, and ready also to embrace whatever may be the full truth in this area and on this question. I am not convinced either way...just in a holding pattern. Not at all double-minded, flittering from one wind to another wind and then back again.
And I don't expect the letters of the apostles or the gospels to come right out and declare unequivocally that the sabbath has been retained as a new testament commandment. It may be that there was not any call in any of the epistles to state it one way or the other, as numerous other issues WERE only addressed due to questions either being asked about things or the apostles had to correct some error or abuse or sin on the part of believers in this or that assembly. I think of the letters to the Corinthians, how I thank God they had so many issues to be addressed and questions to be answered, else we would never have been able to benefit and gain insight into the many things we can on account of Paul having to correct them. I only could wish they and other assemblies had A LOT MORE PROBLEMS and ISSUES to deal with, then perhaps we would have more letters and a much fuller and richer reservoir of answers to help us today to 'figure out' what is to be the will of God more precisely on carious matters. I realize that theses latter statements will trouble or even offend some.
My point though, is to bring up that I believe there are things that have not been addressed more fully, because they needed not at the time to be so thoroughly addressed. I am not comfortable 'reading between the lines', in an attempt to galvanize what saith the Lord on anything. If a passage is unclear, I look for those of simular nature that are clear to explain if possible what is left unclear elsewhere. But if I can't find such passages to help clarify another or others that are indeed less clear, then I have to 'keep the jury out' till I find that which can indeed clarify what I'm seeking clarification on. SO it is at this present moment with me regarding the 'keeping' of the sabbath for those who have entered the New Covenant. Maybe the problem is that the command was assumed to be one to be carried over, but they had not cultural paradigm then about that we have 0 that of a centuries long dogma that the first day, Sunday is the 'Christian Sabbath'. And so now we can't look to the scriptures to find this controversy being addressed and dealt with. Perhaps the sabbath is to be kept today (in grace by the Spirit, not as a law our flesh is commanded but can't rightly 'keep'), but not like others are claiming about it; and we can't 'see' this due to the cultural 'glasses' we've not yet come clear of. I don't know, I am though willing to see what ever be the will of God on this subject (and others). Meanwhile I don't fret myself over it, not in the least. I know that if it is for us, for me to discover I evitually will in God's good time. And meanwhile, I don't allow others to judge me, nor their judgments in not keeping it, disturb me. I merely ask any to show me how your explanation answers the questions that remain - and please, it better be good. Prove what what you are contending for. And be ready yourself to receive correction if your knowingly or unknowing misconstruing and misrepresenting a passage you're trying to use to prove your point. Done here. Sorry for the length.
Yes, a book that I believe to be the most compeling on the sabbath question I've read so far. It almost has me persuaded that the sabbath is something that was not done away with, or non-obligatory for those who have entered the new covenant with Christ. e a grace commandment as well
quote:
I respect them too. If they see that they are to keep the sabbath holy, then by all means I have no quarrel with them...as long as they do not do as you say you yourself have observed with some (or many) who end up doing what you are speaking about. That is judging you or others for NOT observing or keeping the [7th day] sabbath, and declaring that God himself judges you for not keeping the sabbath...and that with a 'curse'.
They have declared themselves "not judging" but then saying that they believe God will curse those who fail to keep the Saturday/Sabbath and will bless those who do keep it. It amounts to how they define "judging." Frankly, it appears that they want to have their cake and to eat it too.
Yes I understand. But for those that are sincerely not 'normally' condemning in nature, I do understand - from their perspective - that they can't help but believe they you and I are "cursed" and whatever else they think, if and when we don't 'keep' the sabbath as they believe all believers are to do. If they are 'judgmental' in a loving way, concerned for my soul, as I believe I am in some kind of peril, I appreciate that. These kind of people will not offend me by their perhaps misguided concern for me. I don't appreciate the other kind of judging that is condemning in nature...only God has that prerogative. When we judge is is to be with a desire to restore those we 'discern' to be out of the way. Done.
Likewise, I have taken to task those who believe that God changed the Sabbath to Sunday based either upon the practice of the early church in Acts or based upon church tradition. But those have not been numerous in the last 2-3 weeks that I have been writing in this thread.
Good, I say to others, show me the prove...and all the remaining and very important questions I have left - do so from the authority of the scriptures...show me something that I never perceived before that answers all these and you have my ear. Otherwise I am left in a believe the same or a simular poisition as you are GC.
quote:
...such who do this, are not likely to be so grossly brutish and dull witted as to then go about foolishly and childishly judging others that they do not. Not when they must be reasonable enough to think as well, that those who do not 'keep' the sabbath 'as they do'; don't do so out of knowledge but out of ignorance. I am saying it as they think of the sabbath. I do not keep the sabbath anymore, for this reason: I am not fully persuaded that it is in force...it well may be, I am just not fully convinced. I do not agree or appreciate the attitude of those who judge and act superior on either side of this issue....
My personal non-reliable estimate is about 50 per cent of those who believe they should keep the Saturday/Sabbath appear to feel that I should also. The other 50 per cent seem to live and let live. Of course, the more active discussion is with those who are more passionate and dogmatic about their opinions.
I seem to be in the minority. Spongeblog and I share similar views regarding the Sabbath, to wit that we are in the New Covenant now and that there is no day to which God obligates us. I would like to add that something because they feel I am inconsistent. It is that I must somehow have to almost a antinomian because I don't believe we are compelled by the Ten Commandments to keep the Saturday Sabbath. It is as though there is nothing in the NT regarding adultery, murder, lying and so forth. They have not leveled this charge directly to me, but it appears in their posts.
Thank you GC. Talk perhaps latter. May have question for you on the Romans 14 section. P.P.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2008 12:21:14 PM
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Abishua
Posts: 53
Joined: 8/2/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Woe I like people who don't read the books and make a written statement to the fact like the one above. Read Revelation 22 :1-5. Then tell me that seventh day will always happen.
Rev. 22:1-5 doesn't address the Sabbath.
Perhaps you should meditate on Isaiah 66:22-23:
"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD."
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2008 5:14:17 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
No Larry we are on the same page it's not like heaven here. Where there we will indeed encounter true rest.
Ok. So you don't believe that the "Sabbath rest" of Hebrews is heaven. That's a relief. My mistake.
quote:
What I believe is what God's words stated are one thing I find to be true and another thing what I can rest in. Now to say that because I have put my rest in him and there is not going to be anymore wars with evil. Then I am sadly mistaken and so is everyone else who has that line of thought.
Gee I didn't realise that Iwas under a curse. I never suggested nor do I believe that any Christian is under a curse, particularly not you nor I.
quote:
I thought as being a follower of the God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Would allow me to have peace with them. Paul you have deceived me in your letters. Please drop a message out the spirit world and get us who think that it is the Lords doing and not ours. Straighten around in these maters.
Sorry. I am a little confused about the above comment. ??? I am not sure what you said.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2008 6:16:12 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 941
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Hey, p.progress, I was just reading your last thread and have a few questions to ask you. Please do not take offense to these questions as they are obviously easy answers. Is the books of the Torah, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel the inspired Word of God? Yes or No.
Did the Apostles and early believers rely on it's contents for teaching and instruction? If so or not, give scriptures to back up your claim. Did Messiah preach and teach from any other source outside of the scriptures? If He kept the 1-3, 5-10 of the 10 Commandments in the New Covenant, why would the 4th Commandment need to be changed or be something optional?
What did the scriptures say about the Sabbath? What was Jesus' custom according to Luke 4? What was Paul "manner" according to Acts 17?
Here's the big one, does the NT supercede or "trump" the OT in you honest opinion? Is the OT good but not really necessary for instruction, reproof, doctrine...but we have something (NT) better?
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2008 10:02:50 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: p.progress
quote:
I like the name p.progress. I assume it is abbreviated from Pilgrim's Progress??
Yes, it is. No book outside of the Word of God itself, that I have read, is as discriptive of the Christian experience and walk, along with its perils, solitude, serious and sober reminders for...
I read the book some 30 years ago. I enjoyed it a lot. Few people read it anymore.
quote:
quote:
What I meant is that I thought you were saying something that I eventually decided you were not saying.
No I don't endorse it, but neither can I properly or justly refute the explanation presented therein as yet. I need more light on that particular area of study to do either.
We can pursue it in the course of discussion if you like. What I like about the forums is that I can bounce ideas off someone else and it encourages me to think more clearly. Sometimes, I abandon ideas that I thought were solid.
You done something that is rare. You wrote a long post that you made me read. Generally, I do not read lengthy posts. You raised a number of points that I will not address immediately because I like to write posts that are digestible in smaller chunks. However, as much as I would like to, I will not address every point you raise in your posts, just a few.
In post 2925, you saidquote:
I read and have this book somewhere 'The Law and the Sabbath', it had some good arguments to explain why Romans 14 was not speaking of the weekly Sabbath;...that is 'don't let anyone judge for NOT keeping the seventh day sabbath'. I see it this way, that the exhortation is not to let anyone judge you that you are not keeping the ceremonial numerous sabbaths called for in the Law that were apart from the weekly sabbath.
With regard to the book you mentioned. As I have read Romans 14, I feel the position you articulated is grossly out of context with Paul's intent. For example, Paul says in Romans 14:6--"He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God."
One who regards certain foods ritually and one who regards certain days as holy above other days are presented as parallel issues of conscience. Continuing to later in the chapter but in the same context, Paul says in verse 14 ---"I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean." I take that as Paul saying that no day is to be more esteemed than another day except to a man's conscience.
Contextually, Paul could not be saying that "all foods are clean" and then conversely say that no one should be caught not obeying the Sabbath. The interpretation you found goes entirely against the trend of the chapter. The term "let no man judge you" is an enigmatic turn of phrase to our ears, probably some sort of idiom. I would render it an equivalent to "Don't give in to those who judge you...."
His major points are with regard to the treatment of others. Paul treats either group as valuable members of Christ's body. If they are judged too harshly, their Christian walk could be destroyed. Those who hold certain days or certain foods in higher esteem are regarded as "weaker brethren." I believe verse one (vs.1) is saying that the weaker brethren's opinions should not be held to ridicule. The core of the issue in the chapter is how we should treat other people. I believe he is advocating flexibility in avoiding giving offense while not promoting the views that certain days are more special or certain foods are more clean. (Romans 14:13-14)
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 8/6/2008 7:08:28 AM >
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Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2008 10:17:02 PM
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p.progress
Posts: 150
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Hello LBolt, Thanks for the questions below in the quote section (2nd section). I don't know if I'll have sufficient time right now to answer them, or as I might normally like to...but we'll see. But I did want to reply quickly to you and thank you for asking...and no offence taken, especially the way I believe your approaching me. Thank you.
Let me go ahead and add beforehand a previous post of yours.
8/4/2008 8:12:27 AM
LBolt
Senior Member
Posts: 704
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
"What has helped me out considerably, is to realize that Jesus and Paul made reference to 2 Laws, the Torah of God or the "Commandment of God" and the Oral Law or the "Commandments of men."
"They both refuted the oral Torah extensively in the writings of the Gospels and the epistles. The let no man judge you in respect of holy day...very well could be a refute of the Talmud which has volumes of pages on how one is to observe the Sabbath. I noticed that Yahshua went out of His way to "break their Sabbath" in not giving any credence to it's dictates. Rather He choose to do good, heal and bless people."
Whats with all this Yahshua, Yeshua, Yesha 'stuff'? I am only being playful here, I hope it does not offend you, I truly mean no offence. I have heard others and know some personally who use the proper (or much more proper and correct) Hebrew pronunciation of Yahshua (Yeshua, Yesha, other) who I call Jesus, exclusively. I would use it, but it doesn't flow off my tongue so easily or with familiarity as does the admittedly (as far as I can tell) non-original and non-Hebrew name 'Jesus'. I don't know where you are in all this. I am not one to accept the claim that the name Jesus is sin or wrong to use to identify the Son of God, the son of David, ".......of Nazereth". But neither am I 'against' using what I believe to be the more natural and real pronunciation (or closest) for 'Jesus' - his Hebrew name.
I agree that Jesus did not literally 'break the Sabbath', but rather what was perceived to be rules surrounding the keeping of the Sabbath.
"It seems like you are doing your homework in the word, Elohim bless you study!!"
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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Report | Post #: 2924
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Hey, p.progress, I was just reading your last thread and have a few questions to ask you. Please do not take offense to these questions as they are obviously easy answers. Is the books of the Torah, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel the inspired Word of God? Yes or No.
Did the Apostles and early believers rely on it's contents for teaching and instruction? If so or not, give scriptures to back up your claim. Did Messiah preach and teach from any other source outside of the scriptures? If He kept the 1-3, 5-10 of the 10 Commandments in the New Covenant, why would the 4th Commandment need to be changed or be something optional?
What did the scriptures say about the Sabbath? What was Jesus' custom according to Luke 4? What was Paul "manner" according to Acts 17?
Here's the big one, does the NT supercede or "trump" the OT in you honest opinion? Is the OT good but not really necessary for instruction, reproof, doctrine...but we have something (NT) better?
Now 10:16pm: I ran out of time. So will try tomorrow [Weds.] to get back to answering the above questions.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2008 10:21:36 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2345
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
The 7th day Sabbath is still very much in effect, and will be for all eternity. It was never changed or abrogated.
dear Abishua,
if you dont mind, elaborate plz:
How do you keep Sabbath? What is included in/excluded from your routine? What do you do/ot do , how is that day differs for you from the other days?
As 'to the point' as possible, very practical, minus vague preacherese.
I would greatly appreciate it, i am not asking for the purposes of entertainment, but actually am getting somewhere with this.
thanks!
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2008 10:54:35 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2345
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: p.progress
Whats with all this Yahshua, Yeshua, Yesha 'stuff'? I am only being playful here, I hope it does not offend you, I truly mean no offence.
Dont pour salt on my wounds, my sunshine.
Just learn to deal with that sort of , annoying thing, out of love for our dearest Messianic brethren.
I addressed it in the post HERE. God and all our brothers in Christ deal with our weaknesses, we ought to return the favor.
I consider usage of hebraisms to be relatively innocent , even if on occasion confusing, due to difference in meaning that Judaism gives to some terms.
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/6/2008 4:56:43 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 993
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Woe I like people who don't read the books and make a written statement to the fact like the one above. Read Revelation 22 :1-5. Then tell me that seventh day will always happen.
Rev. 22:1-5 doesn't address the Sabbath.
Perhaps you should meditate on Isaiah 66:22-23:
"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD."
The point Mcleod is making is that there will be no moon and sun to mark off new moon's and Sabbaths. The Isaiah passage is figurative. If you are not convinced of that, compare Isaiah 66:19-21...
19 "...I will send some of those who survive to the nations—to Tarshish, to the Libyans and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece, and to the distant islands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory among the nations. 20 And they will bring all your brothers, from all the nations, to my holy mountain in Jerusalem as an offering to the LORD -on horses, in chariots and wagons, and on mules and camels," says the LORD. "They will bring them, as the Israelites bring their grain offerings, to the temple of the LORD in ceremonially clean vessels. 21 And I will select some of them also to be priests and Levites," says the LORD."
with...
Romans 15:15-16...
"15...because of the grace God gave me 16to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
We see that Paul himself saw the figurative nature of the Isaiah passage and understood his time and ministry as the fulfillment of that part of the prophecy in relation to the Gentiles. Even vs. 17 is figurative as well, and is based on vs. 3 of the same chapter.
With all this being true, why should we be sure the part of the prophecy you quote from Isaiah 66 is meant to be fulfilled literally? Especially since, as Mcleod has pointed out, there won't be a sun and a moon to mark time by. Which by the way is right from Isaiah 60:19-20...
"The sun will no more be your light by day, nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you, for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory.
20 Your sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more..."
The sun never setting, and the moon no longer waning is obviously figurative. Just more evidence to help us know that the Isaiah prophecies are to be understood in a largely figurative and illustrative way, not entirely literally. Same goes for Zechariah's prophecies. If you read the entire book of Zechariah, you see that so much of it is obviously figurative, not literal.
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/6/2008 8:57:08 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1066
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
What I believe is what God's words stated are one thing I find to be true and another thing what I can rest in. Now to say that because I have put my rest in him and there is not going to be anymore wars with evil. Then I am sadly mistaken and so is everyone else who has that line of thought.
Gee I didn't realise that Iwas under a curse.I never suggested nor do I believe that any Christian is under a curse, particularly not you nor I.
quote]
I thought as being a follower of the God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Would allow me to have peace with them. Paul you have deceived me in your letters. Please drop a message out the spirit world and get us who think that it is the Lords doing and not ours. Straighten around in these maters.
Sorry. I am a little confused about the above comment. ??? I am not sure what you said.
Larry
I'm am sorry to that wasn't address to you. It was to those you have put a yoke on our backs and say that sabbath is a day not the Lord Jesus Christ. So I am truly sorry for you to have to think that I was remarking back to you with them toughts.
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