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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2008 7:10:36 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 941
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quote:
Heb 4:4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5 And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest." 6 It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7 Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
It was this text that proved to me as clear as day that there was still a Sabbath day for us New Covenant folk! I dare not miss out in the blessing YAH has left me. It not out of an obligation but out of love I obey His word and experience this blessing.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2008 9:52:52 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2345
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quote:
By the way, if you are really interested in the benefits of Shabbat and how it can be done, I have started a thread in the misc. folder of the general forums.
looks like we can talk about it here now. Misc.folder has debates on celeb hair, acceptability of the red wedding dress, perks of cruises, tricks to use with car salesmen and similar lightweight chat. So Sabbath talk had a real chance to be turned into which brand of Kosher wine is less yucky and private definitions of what is considered allowable work . Before we know it people 'd be trying to poke each other's eyes out arguing "i am a better Sabbath keeper 'n you" That is curious and fun but essentially would be nothing but plain chat on denom.and personal Sab. oberv. preferences
On ways to keep Sabbath and legal, popular loopholes in it I can write the book, with enough anecdotal evidence to hold people’s attention. But how people do it, it’s their own business. It that deepens their relationship with God, more power to them.
What i would really like to see is Sabbath observer's opinion on what practical ways do they consider absolutely necessary and why. Appreciate your view so far on curses and blessings. At this point I would like to understand the views of the other side, so all additional opinions are welcome.L and Gyps, if you have a moment, do share your view on practical ways of sabbath keeping –preferably in the aspect I just mentioned.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2008 10:16:01 AM
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Odeliya
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The concept of love in the Scriptures is always, as far as I know, connected to actions in a relationship and not how one feels. The essense of Shabbat is the setting appart of a time for building charitable(loving) relationships. When we work we can not give our full attention to Adonai and others. Therefore, the primary blessing we receive from Shabbat is the development of community.
That is nice to set time, but again, I see it as a matter of personal preferences. Some people actually have to work to enhance the development of the charitable community. One doesn’t need to cease working on Sabbath to create loving relationship with God.
My sister is a pediatric nurse. When she was still fresh from college she worked for Doctors Without Borders as a volunteer in impoverished parts of Asia. She initially struggled with the fact that she’ll be working of Sabbath, but was assured by more then one rabbi and multitude of Scriptures that is more pleasing to God then if she neglects the call to go..
What about Mitzvah to fight if there is war on Sabbath?I heard from more then 1 american the wrong assumption that Orth-s supposedly don’t serve-no,even they can use that as legal excuse, many do. They are pain in the neck for the rest and usually grouped in their own brigades, but many readily do .Trust me that says a lot for the issue of Sabbath keeping.
Where I am getting at- do you agree that those who knowingly work on Sabbath are just as pleasing to God?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2008 12:35:00 PM
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p.progress
Posts: 150
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: p.progress
I see though that even a savvy poster like yourself GC, can still make mistakes...no put down, it makes you more human and that encourages me - I'm not 'BlueThread', but P. Progress (Scot)..that was my qoute.
Did you follow what I added in my above post? I'm editing it right now and will repost it below.
Opps! Edited the above post, so won't try to RE-POST it below. Please reread it (i.e. #2970).
Bye. P.P.
P.progress (Scott?),
I saw your post. I didn't have time to analyze it for clarity. It's late and I'll get back to you. In calling you BlueThread, I must have cut and pasted something inadvertently and too quickly. I didn't notice. Sorry.
Of course no problem.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2008 5:01:23 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 993
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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In accordance with the requirements of the law, eveyone who believes has entered into rest; a rest from sin that God has established.
In what way are we resting from sin, for sin continues this day. We may be resting from the fear of eturnal judgement, but for what purpose. To do Adonai's work, as Paul says, (Eph 2:10) "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
"We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. (Romans 6:2-7)
The next argument someone would most likely raise is you have to purposely obey to rest from sin. Which is exactly what I'm trying to say! The rest God wants us to enter into is the rest from sin He has provided for us in the Holy Spirit, not a meaningless day off from cutting the grass. Take a day off from sin (every day), not cutting the grass! That's the rest we have entered into and to which we must be faithful to. What's a day off from cutting the grass, but an illustration of this higher truth that has existed from the beginning.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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And everyone who believes has congregated with all His people in perfect meeting through the one common Spirit given to all.
Then why does Paul tell us, (Heb 10:25) "Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching."
We meet now to build each other up into the high calling of Christ-like character. We're not marking a score card that says we kept the law of congregating. If you read the verse just before the one you quoted you can see why we meet together, and it's not to fulfill a Sabbath requirement:
"24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. (Heb. 10:24-25)
Until meeting together becomes a means to an end, instead of the end itself, you will continue to relate to God in regard to meeting together in the sense of a now meaningless Sabbatical law.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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And He did it on the Day that was appointed from eternity past--the Day Christ was crudified.
That is Pesach, which we commemorate every year. Undoubtedly a Shabbat, but not the weekly Shabbat. And He stated that whenever we eat the
matzah(unleavened bread) and drink from the Kedosh Cup (Holy Cup), which we do each Pesach, we are to do so in rememberence of Him. This implies that we should keep doing it.
And to my knowledge, all Christians do that according to their denominational preference. According to your own argument, who are you to say how a person or Church must keep the Passover observance as long as they are keeping one? Communion is a Passover observance. Jesus said so.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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As a direct result of the work of Christ (not ours, like under the law) the requirements of the law were fulfilled for us when the way was opened for the giving of the Holy Spirit days later.
Yes,we are no longer required to keep the law, but do so out of gratitude and an understanding the man was not made for Shabbat, but Shabbat for man. Now we are open to receiving the Spirit of Adonai that has been poured out on all those who have been open to Him throughout the ages.
You just made the day of Pentacost a totally meaningless event. In fact you've made the writers of the NT liars with this statement.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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But what does going to Church on Saturday prove about that?
Congregating on Shabbat signifies that not only is one aware of Adonai's command to do so, but that he is willing to do as Adonai commands in that regard. As Yacov(James) tells us, (Jas 2:18) "Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."
Can we ignore all the scriptures that teach us that external worship proves absolutely nothing about a person? James and John both use actual works of compassion to illustrate the teaching that love is the evidence of faith, not obedience to the OT laws of worship. But I have to ignore that in order to subscribe to what you defend, that OT worship techiniques are what prove you have faith.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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Come on. Do you really want to defend the natural benefit of meeting and resting on a Saturday instead of Sunday?
No, I would defend the natural benefits of obeying what has been called the fourth commandment, which includes Shabbat.
That's doesn't answer the question. Do you want to defend the benefit of Saturday rest over Sunday rest or not? You're avoiding the context of our previous discussion. You're switching gears now and falling away from your intial argument that somehow there was an inherent value in the day of the week Sabbath is observed. Can we assume then that there is no inherent value in the actual day that a rest is observed, and that it's simply a matter of doing what God commanded for those who believe it should be observed?
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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Why would the Spirit of Adonai tell us to do something different from how Adonai told Moshe to do it?
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I've been trying to show everybody this for months now. We understand 'why' things are different now in the undebatable examples we have in animal sacrifice for sin and circumcision. This whole matter is understood by what we know about these two things. Both of those things have passed in favor of more important spiritual truth.
Opinions are fine, but I've tried really hard to defend my POV right from the scriptures themselves. Precendant carries tons and tons of weight. Paul depended on it to get through to stubborn Jews stuck in hard and fast law. What better way to make a point about the law but from the law itself? It's easily the most powerful and effective way to defend God's progression from fundamental truth to higher and more important truth to those stuck in the law.
Animal sacrifice and circumcision are the undeniable precedents for understanding other matters. God is most definately speaking different things to mankind today. The argument that God has to say the same things now that He did then is completely baseless in light of what we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that He is speaking different now.
This is just another way of saying, I am right and you are wrong and I'm tired of having to tell you that over and over again. Of course, your arguments regarding animal sacrifice and circumcision are debatable. As you just said, we have been debating them for months now, in the appropriate thread, and they have not stopped debate.
They are not debatable at all. Just because you stubbornly refuse to acknowlege that animal sacrifice and circumcision were replaced by new realities doesn't make the plain language of the Bible debatable. It's time to be honest and accept many, many truths you don't have the courage to acknowledge. Animal sacrifice and circumcision have passed in favor of greater truth. Only a dishonest person can not admit that.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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You missed it completely. I'm not bringing this up in regard to the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Here's the point tha you missed:
When Jesus told the apostles to avoid the leaven of the Pharisees they had no reason or excuse right off to think he was talking about anything other than literal leaven. It wasn't until they knew that He wasn't talking about literal leaven that they were now free to 'disobey' his original command to avoid literal leaven.
Your conclusion does not follow. He was telling them to avoid the additions that the Pharisees made to the Tanach(old testiment). Therefore, no conclusions regarding "literal leaven" can be made from this passage.
Stop ignoring the obvious to protect yourself. Until Jesus told them He wasn't talking about literal leaven they had an absolute obligation to avoid literal leaven. It's the same with the literal OT laws of worship. Until they understood they represented higher spiritual truths, people under the old covenant had to keep them. That's why we who do understand those higher spirutual truths in the New Covenant are free from the literal requirements of the law.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
As I have said above one proves his character by his actions as Yacov(James) says, (Jas 2:18) "Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." I believe Adonai is interested in both the spiritual and the physical, but as long as you cling to the Platonic mindset of spiritualism, you'll miss it.
I'm keeping good company with Peter...
"...make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:5-11)
Do you think for even a split second Peter is talking about works of OT worship? Well, of course you do. I often wonder if you people even read the NT, but it probably wouldn't make any difference anyway because of the veil of the law that you read it through. Seek the mind of Christ and put away this dependance on outward worship laws! They are not the obedience that shows the genuineness of one's faith. Wake up! Works of character prove your faith. Going to church and other methods of worship are only tools to help you fulfill the high calling of Christ-like character as revealed in the NT.
As we now know it wasn't the laws 'be circumcised' or 'observe Sabbath' that marked a person as a follower of God and a member of His household. To the shock and disbelief of everyone, it turns out the little known and ignored command 'love your neighbor as yourself' is the definitive proof that signifies your place in the family of God. Sabbath keeping and circumcision turned out to be only illustrations of that Royal Law. Christ is the epitome of that Royal Law.
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2008 6:05:02 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 941
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To comment further on the Hebrews 4 passage, since the believers met at the synagogue on Sabbath, it's very likely that the letter of Hebrews would have been read along with the Torah readings, this is why verse 7 says "today"...
We have to remember, that to own a scroll of the scriptures was very, very expensive requiring the slaughter of alot of sheep or cattle just to have the material to write on as well as having a scribe copy verbatim every word. Most likely this would have been read on Sabbath when the assembly gathered.
This verse does not support the "everyday is the Sabbath" teaching that many teach.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2008 9:12:22 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
It was this text that proved to me as clear as day that there was still a Sabbath day for us New Covenant folk! I dare not miss out in the blessing YAH has left me. It not out of an obligation but out of love I obey His word and experience this blessing.
LBolt,
You are taking it out of context. The verse is not saying that New Covenant people are obligated to observe the Saturday Sabbath. It is applying the term Sabbath as a prophetic metaphor for salvation. The author begins by applying the term "Sabbath Rest" to those Jews who refused to be obedient when entering the Promised Land of Canaan. Their continued disobedience prompted God to refuse to allow them into it.
He then applies the Sabbath Rest to the New Covenant, saying, in effect, that the New Covenant IS the Sabbath Rest. Anyone who has accepted Christ has entered the Sabbath Rest. It is a metaphor.
If you'll notice, He says "I swore in my wrath...they will not enter my rest." If we are obligated to keep the Sabbath in perpetuity, why in the world would He prevent people from doing so?
"We who have believed do enter that rest..." So everyone who has accepted Christ has fulfilled the obligation to keep the Sabbath or, more likely, has entered God's prophetic Sabbath Rest.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 8/12/2008 6:36:16 AM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/11/2008 9:39:00 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
...Though I am 'dead to the Law', this does not mean that the Law is 'dead' or done away or destroyed. The Law is still "good, holy and just"; .... I delight in the law, but find I cannot keep it, but do that which I don't want to do, and don't do what I do want to do...as Paul speaks of...in my flesh that is to be sure. As it is written, I as well as you and all...and am though now capable through the Spirit of Christ and God that lives in me to fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law.....
p.progress,
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Paul is NOT saying that we can start obeying the literal Mosaic Law when we accept Christ. His "delight" in the law was the law's work of leading him to Christ.
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I want to say this, and perhaps you have something to say to this here: But there were laws and commandments and statutes revealed to men BEFORE the 'Law' was given at Mt. Sinai....they may see that though NO LAW may have been plainly expressed, spoken of or laid out by some prophet or seer from God. There is nevertheless evidence in the accounts that point to the fact that a Law or command had been undoubtedly given. Else there would not have been the knowledge of the fact that to do certain things was to "sin" and do that which is "wicked" in the sight of God.
Sure. But exactly where. There was certainly a general knowledge of evil and wrong, through man's consciousness, but one might be hard pressed to get it expressed concretely. Paul himself said that he didn't know sin until the law. That is not to say there was no sin until the law.
The concepts of adultery and evil are further elaborated in the NT. The newer revelations are supposed to enlighten us about the older ones. If the New Covenant obligated us to observe the Saturday Sabbath, then I would certainly have to accept the general concept of the Sabbath obligation as implied in Genesis. But what the NT actually does is not to obligate us to observe the Saturday Sabbath by refraining from work, but it tells us that it symbolizes something far more important--Our Rest in Jesus Christ--the actual goal of all of these revelations, past and present.
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Now while it is true that the sabbath was GIVEN to Israel to "keep" at Mt' Sinai, in the commandments written in stone; the sabbath was actually given to them to keep some weeks or months beforehand - BEFORE they entered into the covenant at Sinai. BUT they were so disobedient and transgressed the things God said then that - and I think this is why it is said that the law entered because of trangression....
Well, if you want to get technical, the Law began to be inaugurated before they even left Egypt. The Passover, for example was done that way. The pivotal emphasis of Sinai was not intended to express that the Mosaic Law was present years or centuries before the time of Moses.
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Which covenant did not disannul the covenant made even way BEFOREHAND, to Abraham - the covenant by faith (some 430 years plus beforehand). It was speaking of what theologians call the Abrahamic Covenant. Paul said it had a continuity throughout and concurrent with the time frame as the Mosaic Covant. But that covenant was not the same Law as the Mosaic Covenant. I think you know that. The Law (Old Covenant) was made when the Jews left Egypt. See Jeremiah 31.
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I don't see that the sabbath was spoken of before Mt.Sinai - save JUST some months or so BEFORE Mt. Sinai, and at creation (Gen.2:1-3). I don't read of it being spoken of to Adam, Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or Joseph - BUT that does not mean that the LORD God DIDN'T give it to them. I say this because of the fact that it is clear that God in the Genesis scriptures says nothing (commands nothing) about sacrificing to him...the sacrificing of animals...or the sacrificing of not just 'any' and/or 'all kinds of animals, but specifically 'clean' animals - at least not to Adam, Abel, Noah that I read of. How is it that God could call the Sodomites (etc.) 'wicked' and 'sinners' [ge.13.13] - and destroy them for it...
Let's be careful about arguing from silence. It certainly indicates some things spoken by God but not written down. Exactly what the content of it was, I don't know. quote:
Where's the 'revelation'? And what of adultery? How did Joseph 'KNOW' that to lay with Potiphars wife was sin and wicked [ge.39.7-10]?
Jesus spoke of the union of a man and woman: "Let no man put asunder." I suppose to our thinking, it wasn't concrete enough. But Jesus used it to express God's will in marriage and by implication the sin of adultery. I take the pre-Mosaic accounts as informative concerning God's will. I do think God dealt with men more directly then, as He did to Abimelech. Eventually, men began to ignore God.
Exactly what expectations of men regarding the Saturday/Sabbath at that time, I don't know. We are not told. If God expects man to observe the Sabbath without respect to any limitations of Age or Dispensation, I would want something more clear. That's why I go to the NT for the most recent revelation from God. God could certainly tell me that the pre-Mosaic instruction was intended to obligate me to the Saturday Sabbath. He doesn't.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 8/11/2008 9:54:34 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 9:22:01 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 941
Joined: 11/30/2007
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quote:
LBolt,
You are taking it out of context. The verse is not saying that New Covenant people are obligated to observe the Saturday Sabbath. It is applying the term Sabbath as a prophetic metaphor for salvation. The author begins by applying the term "Sabbath Rest" to those Jews who refused to be obedient when entering the Promised Land of Canaan. Their continued disobedience prompted God to refuse to allow them into it.
He then applies the Sabbath Rest to the New Covenant, saying, in effect, that the New Covenant IS the Sabbath Rest. Anyone who has accepted Christ has entered the Sabbath Rest. It is a metaphor.
If you'll notice, He says "I swore in my wrath...they will not enter my rest." If we are obligated to keep the Sabbath in perpetuity, why in the world would He prevent people from doing so?
"We who have believed do enter that rest..." So everyone who has accepted Christ has fulfilled the obligation to keep the Sabbath or, more likely, has entered God's prophetic Sabbath Rest.
However, this letter was addressed to born again believers who already accepted Yahshua as Messiah! They already received salvation! There would be no need to admonish them to enter God's rest seeing that they already entered it. These verses are talking about Sabbath. Different ones say that the NT does teach on Sabbath...Hebrews does. We read into and "Jesus is our Sabbath" (and He is) so we don't need to keep the Sabbath day."
My friend, Yah would have to repent to all of our OT brethren who viloated Yah's word and were judged if He under this "dispensation" massaged away His teachings and instructions.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 10:56:45 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1066
Joined: 4/4/2006
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As I was writing in the Law thread I will continue on the Lord's Prayer.
We come in that passage where the Anointed one say to his disciples. Lead us not into temptation, but deliever us from the evil one.
Here we know that God cannot tempted nor is evil found in him what was it that Christ could possible trying to teach us here?
That when we have put our trust in him that he will guide our thoughts and that we can rest in his arms through our daily lifes. Which was also mention in that pray. Gives us this daily our daily bread. That Jesus also mentions that he was the bread of life.
The problem with this one event day. You will forget the other six days that you need to worship him also.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 11:00:46 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 993
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: online
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"13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. (Heb. 3:13)
It's clear that the author is not talking about a literal Sabbath day, but the period of time of the gospel that has gone out into the world.
'Today' is the day, the season, the time of the message of God's salvation to the world--the gospel--the good news of God's rest for mankind. This invitation to enter into God's rest ordained from the beginning of time is happening now, 'Today'. The warning is to not be found unbelieving and thus not enter in to the rest that God has made available in Christ.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 3:45:27 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 941
Joined: 11/30/2007
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My point is this, why would the author need to admonish believers to enter into salvation if they are already saved? There is no point here.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 4:39:07 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1066
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
My point is this, why would the author need to admonish believers to enter into salvation if they are already saved? There is no point here.
May I answer with a question. Were the children of Israel, children of God when they came to Jordan or not? This is where the lines have to meet to draw a parallel to what you are asking for.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 5:58:44 PM
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p.progress
Posts: 150
Joined: 12/23/2006
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quote:
p.progress, I'm not sure what you are saying here...
Sorry for that, if we could sit down with each other and speak, we'd be able to much more quickly learn how we each 'think' and 'define' our terms.
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...Paul is NOT saying that we can start obeying the literal Mosaic Law when we accept Christ. His "delight" in the law was the law's work of leading him to Christ.
Yes I agree with that. And no, I was not saying we could or should start obeying the literal law given to Moses - all that it contains, to be sure. In fact none of it - as it is not the new covenant I am 'under'. Yes the law is to lead Israel (all) to Christ, the end [fulfillment] of the Law.
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quote:
I want to say this, and perhaps you have something to say to this here: But there were laws and commandments and statutes revealed to men BEFORE the 'Law' was given at Mt. Sinai....they may see that though NO LAW may have been plainly expressed, spoken of or laid out by some prophet or seer from God. There is nevertheless evidence in the accounts that point to the fact that a Law or command had been undoubtedly given. Else there would not have been the knowledge of the fact that to do certain things was to "sin" and do that which is "wicked" in the sight of God.
Sure. But exactly where. There was certainly a general knowledge of evil and wrong, through man's consciousness, but one might be hard pressed to get it expressed concretely. Paul himself said that he didn't know sin until the law. That is not to say there was no sin until the law.
Exactly my opint. My point is that very few commandments were expressly stated in the Genesis narratives. The example of Cain and Abel highlights this: Nothing was stated by God anywhere that informs us when, what, why, where and how they were to offer sacrificies to God. We only know by reading the accounts that they must have been clearly and duly instructed at some point in time back then to do it according to the "due order". Hence we see that Cain failed to do so, and his offering was not accepted. Other examples I have given as well.
As for: quote:
...but one might be hard pressed to get it expressed concretely I would say I think what you would agree with me here, that not only "hard pressed", but impossible. For it is clear to see that the laws and commandments, statutes and precepts that were known before the law, were (in most cases) not expressed in the Genesis records.
I can only know that they must have been given by God (to some at least), by the few places in Genesis where there is evidence that he commnicated these; and also where internal narrative evidence points to this obvious conclusion. That there had to have been knowledge of the ways and commands of God among men (some at least), is to me certain. What, when, where and how I haven't the faintest clue, save by deduction - given the narrative acconts that point to what 'might have' or 'must have' been said.
quote:
...Paul himself said that he didn't know sin until the law. That is not to say there was no sin until the law.
"What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except..."
Not '...until the law', but "...but by the law". I realize you know this, but there was a time before the law was given and known, but it was way beofre Paul was born. Of course not 'until' Paul became knowledgeable of the law, did he know what sin was.
And that is another point to make, that sin was certainly in the world, even sin that was committed by men and women that was different than that of Adam and Eve's, or Cain's or the people at the Tower of Babel, or that of Sodom and the other cities surrounding it. The knowledge of sin comes by the knowledge of the Law; people had a knowledge of sin BEFORE the Law was given at Mt. Sinai (or the commands of the Passover in Egypt), they had a knowledge of sin and wickedness, because they had a knowledge of the Law of God - limited though he might have revealed it back then.
I am not arguing all this to prove that we are to keep the law - even as NT saints; but to make the point that here: That the commandment in the Decalogue to keep the sabbath holy, though not expressly stated to any one we can read of in the Genesis record (even Adam and Eve), does not mean that it was not revealed by God to people back then or not followed. We just don't know.
I am not trying to argue and somehow 'prove' here [from silence] that since there was in my view an obvious knowledge of God's laws and commandments BEFORE THE LAW was given at Mt. Sinai (and those in Egypt at the Passover, and those on their way to Mt. Sinai afterwards), that the people in Genesis did keep the Sabbath; or that we today are to follow the Law in keeping of the sabbath - who knows, I don't.
I don't know. I like you am not convinced that the sabbath was 'carried over' to the New Covenant. I am just not so convinced that it is not, and that the "every day" argument has as much weight and force as some or you think or appear to think it does.
Got to go. P.P.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 8:13:58 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 993
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
My point is this, why would the author need to admonish believers to enter into salvation if they are already saved? There is no point here.
The whole letter to the Hebrews is an exhortation to stay the course--to stay in and finish with the faith they started with:
"12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.
14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
15As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion." (Heb. 3:12-15)
And he goes on to tell us it is faith that brings us into the rest God has established. And just as the Israelites failed to enter in to their rest because of unbelief, so will we also not enter into the rest God has established (Christ) because of unbelief.
Canaan was the appointed place of safety and deliverance for the people of God. A sanctuary from the enemies all around them that would destroy them.
"...you will cross the Jordan and settle in the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, and he will give you rest from all your enemies around you so that you will live in safety." (Deut. 12:10)
So also Christ is our place of sanctuary from the enemy of sin all around. He is our inheritance that we enter into and find rest. Unbelief kept them out of their inheritance. Unbelief will keep us out of our inheritance, too. That's the point the author of Hebrews is making (probably Paul). Paul was especially effective at using the illustration we have in the Israelites to understand life in Christ. This is just another one of those.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 8/12/2008 8:27:52 PM >
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 9:58:55 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 941
Joined: 11/30/2007
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Amen!
I really believe Heb. 4 is not just refering to Christ as a "day" but a day that He specially gave to mankind from the beginning to physically and spiritually rest, convocate...
You are right this book is about staying the course seeing as though the Temple was to be dedstroyed and things would change drastically as history proves. They were being persecuted already and needed the encouragement. This was the answer I was looking for. I kept hearing that "salvation was the Sabbath rest" specifically implied in these passages and it is clearly not.
He was admonishing them to continue in the faith as taught and practiced by Yahshua and the disciples. He was and is our example of manner of life. He is the Master and Author and Finisher of our faith. As He was and is so are we to be.
Good night and God bless!! 
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 5:06:05 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1440
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
The concept of love in the Scriptures is always, as far as I know, connected to actions in a relationship and not how one feels. The essense of Shabbat is the setting appart of a time for building charitable(loving) relationships. When we work we can not give our full attention to Adonai and others. Therefore, the primary blessing we receive from Shabbat is the development of community.
That is nice to set time, but again, I see it as a matter of personal preferences. Some people actually have to work to enhance the development of the charitable community. One doesn’t need to cease working on Sabbath to create loving relationship with God.
My sister is a pediatric nurse. When she was still fresh from college she worked for Doctors Without Borders as a volunteer in impoverished parts of Asia. She initially struggled with the fact that she’ll be working of Sabbath, but was assured by more then one rabbi and multitude of Scriptures that is more pleasing to God then if she neglects the call to go..
What about Mitzvah to fight if there is war on Sabbath?I heard from more then 1 american the wrong assumption that Orth-s supposedly don’t serve-no,even they can use that as legal excuse, many do. They are pain in the neck for the rest and usually grouped in their own brigades, but many readily do .Trust me that says a lot for the issue of Sabbath keeping.
Where I am getting at- do you agree that those who knowingly work on Sabbath are just as pleasing to God?
That would depend on how one interprets work. Yeshua(Jesus) shows us in the examples of healing and gleaning that Adonai did not intend on us counting our steps or sitting in the dark staring at the wall on Shabbat. (Mt. 12:11) He said to them, ""If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." and Mr 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."
Therefore, I would say, bluethread not Adonai, that if a mitzvat(good deed) could only be done on Shabbat and one were to take for oneself only what was necessary for that day, that would be good. However, if one were to plan to do something on Shabbat that could be done on another day, that would not be appropriate.
The truly difficult question is when one is compelled to work, by circumstance or ones employer, for personal gain on Shabbat, what would one do. The blessing of living in a "self-sustaining" Torah community is that one would not be compelled to do so. However, the USA is in no way a Torah observant community.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 7:00:23 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1854
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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p.progress saidquote:
Exactly my opint. My point is that very few commandments were expressly stated in the Genesis narratives. The example of Cain and Abel highlights this: Nothing was stated by God anywhere that informs us when, what, why, where and how they were to offer sacrificies to God. We only know by reading the accounts that they must have been clearly and duly instructed at some point in time back then to do it according to the "due order". Hence we see that Cain failed to do so, and his offering was not accepted. Other examples I have given as well.
Should we accept from that that animal sacrifices were to continue because they sacrificed them prior to the Mosaic system? Should we practice circumcision prior to the Mosaic system?
I don't believe I am assuming very much when I read that "esteeming a day" was changed in the NT system.quote:
Exactly my opint. My point is that very few commandments were expressly stated in the Genesis narratives. The example of Cain and Abel highlights this: Nothing was stated by God anywhere that informs us when, what, why, where and how they were to offer sacrificies to God. We only know by reading the accounts that they must have been clearly and duly instructed at some point in time back then to do it according to the "due order". Hence we see that Cain failed to do so, and his offering was not accepted. Other examples I have given as well.
Not impossible, no.
quote:
Not '...until the law', but "...but by the law". I realize you know this, but there was a time before the law was given and known, but it was way beofre Paul was born. Of course not 'until' Paul became knowledgeable of the law, did he know what sin was.
A semantic point only. See Romans7:9. Paul's point was not about the application to the law chronologically to him in his time. It was about the application of the law to him when he became aware of it.quote:
...commandment in the Decalogue to keep the sabbath holy, though not expressly stated to any one we can read of in the Genesis record (even Adam and Eve), does not mean that it was not revealed by God to people back then or not followed. We just don't know.
I am not trying to argue and somehow 'prove' here [from silence] that since there was in my view an obvious knowledge of God's laws and commandments BEFORE THE LAW was given at Mt. Sinai (and those in Egypt at the Passover, and those on their way to Mt. Sinai afterwards), that the people in Genesis did keep the Sabbath; or that we today are to follow the Law in keeping of the sabbath - who knows, I don't. I don't know.
I like you am not convinced that the sabbath was 'carried over' to the New Covenant. I am just not so convinced that it is not, and that the "every day" argument has as much weight and force as some or you think or appear to think it does.
OK. I think we have common agreement there. How about going back to Romans 14? I just wanted to make sure we had some common background discussion. What is about Romans 14 that isn't convincing to you?
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Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 2:30:33 PM
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Bluethread
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 
But these words of the creator came to my mind; "Where their are two or three gather in my name their I am in the mist". 
Whoops I forgot my understanding person Odeliya. Who should if not already find a gentleman who will create peace and love in her life.