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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/26/2008 5:09:07 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1440
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Bluethread;
quote:
I do not believe I have added you can't do this and/or you can't do that to what the Scriptures say. If I have I hope you will give me specific examples so that I can clarify things. The fact is, I have had little opportunity to discuss how one would keep Shabbat due to this long running discussion over whether one should keep it or not.
You did when we got to talking about air-conditioners, remember?
It was you who brought up air-conditioners, not me. I just said I would make you comfortable. If this is regarding, stopping when one breaks a sweat when playing on Shabbat, I clearly said this is my house rule and therefore it is not binding on others. So, I am merely stating my house rules not Adonai's commands. I know of many "christians" who do not allow shoes in the house, are they adding to the Scriptures?
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I tought we was talking about what we are to do during the week. I believe if I am not mistaken you wrote that we could act kind a foolish as long as on the sabbath we got our act together. Which to that I said our good actions need to work seven days a week. Not just one.
I do not recall that interchange. You must have misheard me or me confused with someone else.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/26/2008 5:43:03 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1440
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
What is it about working, gathering manna, or gathering wood/ lighting a fire that doesn't have an element of survival about it?
Those things you have listed may have things in common, but the fact that one sees a commonalitity does not necessarily justify the conclusion that it is "The point of the literal Sabbath".
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I asked you for specifics and Scriptural justification and I received an "overall impression" and no reference to the Scripture whatsoever.
I assume you mean the Sabbath requirement after they entered the Land. The voice of God concerning Sabbath requirements changed and were relaxed because there was no more manna coming down from heaven--the centerpiece of the meaning of Sabbath established before they entered Cannan. But anyway...
"9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates." (Exd. 20:9-10)
14 " 'Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. (Exd. 31:14-15)
"3 Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day." (Exd. 35:3)
Good now we at least have something specific to discuss. How is it these are burdensome? Remember, impossible and burdensome are two different things.
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Let's look at when your employer schedules you to work on Saturday:
3 "There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD." (Lev. 23:3)
Do we comply with our employer in the name of 'doing good' (we both know it's okay to do good on Sabbath) and effectively end any meaningful and sacrificial compliance with the literal law, or do we trust God and not show up for work and retain the illustrative value of the literal Sabbath?
There is a third option, one can negotiate with one's employer going in as a condition of employment. Such negotiations are not uncommon for other reasons, physical handycap, multiple employers, etc. One can also work in one's own business.
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It's easy to see how resting from one's work in the days of ancient Israel may have carried much more consequence and represented much more of a trusting sacrifice than it does for us today. But I have yet to meet a messianic who won't go to his job when he's scheduled to on a Sabbath day. What kind of trusting sacrifice is that compared to what the ancient Israelites were required to comply with? I suspect it's unburdensome because you're not really keeping it and have found conveinient justification in the words of Jesus to get around it. That's my point.
I am sorry, if others are not up front with their employers. However, if the only employment at a particular time was bunny clubbing, what would you say to the unemployed member of the Humane Society?
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And look, I know these are real matters of conscience to some people. I don't want anyone to not go to work on Saturday if they feel convicted by what I'm sharing. That's not why I'm sharing this. Please go to work if you are supposed to this Sabbath!!!
Yes, and since they are matters of real consequence, one should work with one's employer to come up with alternatives.
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The truth is, the reasons messianics use for not making the potentially life altering sacrifices that the literal Sabbath requires, and instead justifying that work in the name of 'doing good', actually proves how obsolete, even meaningless it has become in the New Covenant, like literal circumcision. And that's okay, because you've got Jesus on your side on this one. You just don't realize it.
Weren't these considerations in the Babylonian captivity, yet you have suggested elsewhere that Daniel, Hananiah, Michel and Azariah would have had to keep Shabbat in order to be saved. Yes, man made circumstances can make many things difficult, but that does not mean they are burdensome in and of themselves. We can arrange things such that the requirements of Shabbat are not a burden.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 9/26/2008 6:07:35 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/30/2008 10:37:41 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1066
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I was reading in I believe Deuteronomy. Where Moses is retelling the children of Israel who are going into the promise land, of the laws. Where I thought I read in the passage that was mention about;" when you are to enter into the land I give you. You will find rest in it". To know I could be mistaken and reading something doesn't even exist. But I am counting on anyone out there to help me. Because I can't find it for the life of me.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 10/13/2008 11:06:16 AM
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micahsixeight
Posts: 75
Joined: 10/13/2008
From: Pittsburgh, PA
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I believe Paul is saying here that these traditions (food & drink taboos, new moon festivals, and sabbath day observance) all relate to the practice of true religion falsely or false religion truely (Is. 1: 12-14). Remember, pagans and Jews had their sabbath days. A careful study of what Fourth Command observance means and how it is invoked in God's word will reveal its on-going relevance even in the life of modern believers. The day has been changed to the first day of the week but it remains a requirement in principle and practice.
_____________________________
"But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.' -Jesus, Rev. 2: 4
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 10/17/2008 6:47:42 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1440
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quote:
ORIGINAL: micahsixeight
I believe Paul is saying here that these traditions (food & drink taboos, new moon festivals, and sabbath day observance) all relate to the practice of true religion falsely or false religion truely (Is. 1: 12-14). Remember, pagans and Jews had their sabbath days. A careful study of what Fourth Command observance means and how it is invoked in God's word will reveal its on-going relevance even in the life of modern believers. The day has been changed to the first day of the week but it remains a requirement in principle and practice.
Could you show me, in the Scriptures, where it was changed to the first day of the week?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 10/17/2008 9:00:43 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 941
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Micahsixeight,
Welcome to Crosswalk. You jumped right into the hot seat! LOL!
God bless!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 10/18/2008 10:27:29 AM
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micahsixeight
Posts: 75
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Thanks
This topic has been my passion and focus of study for over a decade and I really believe that reformation (revival) will not happen until the principle, as taught throughout the pages of Scripture, is understood and practiced.
I'm new to blogging so I may make mistakes. Please be patient and thanks again for the welcome.
_____________________________
"But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.' -Jesus, Rev. 2: 4
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 10/18/2008 10:47:21 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 941
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You what? You won't find one scripture in the Bible that says that Sabbath was changed from the 7th day to the first day of the week.
What Elohim wants from us is to live righteously toward Him and our fellow man. When we are doing each other wrong and show social indifference, our Sabbath keeping and festival celebrations are despised and loathed by YHWH.
However when we repent of the error of our ways, YHWH will delight in us and give us true rest. Sabbath is us resting in from our own works and trusting in Him. The physical Sabbath is a weekly reminder that we have ceased from our own works and we commerate His good work of creation. Yes Yahusha is our rest and it is because of our love and obedience to His word that those who keep Sabbath do so. Not out of obligation but willing obedience.
We have an obligatiion to love our fellow man as ourselves. When we do one without the other (Love God and love our neighbor), it is still unacceptable.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 10/18/2008 10:57:56 AM
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micahsixeight
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From: Pittsburgh, PA
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As you know there isn't a chapter and verse that can be referenced in support of the day change. Of course there isn't a citation to verify the doctrine of the trinity either but it's a basic tenet of the Christian faith.
The origin of sabbath is found in Gen. 2 where GOD (the Father) rested on the 7th day because His work of creation was complete (nothing has been created since). This is also the rationale behind 4th Commandment observance as presented in Ex. 20, i.e., the corporate body of God's people were required to join the Creator in His 7th day rest.
In the NT, the work of salvation for God's elect was accomplished by Christ on the cross. When that work was finished, God (the Son) was 'seated at the right hand of God' (Col. 3: 1). This 'rest' occured on the first day of the week. Christ's disciples certainly made the connection between the 4th Commandment and the finished work of Christ on the 1st day of the week and ever since then Christians have gathered on Sunday to worship their Savior.
How the day is observed is another topic. It is incumbant upon believers to properly sanctify the day for true worship, presenting ourselves to Him in accordance with His word. The Lord's day is a special day in which He has promised to be present for the sanctification of His people (Ex. 31: 13).
_____________________________
"But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.' -Jesus, Rev. 2: 4
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 10/19/2008 9:38:38 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 941
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The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. It didn't say it was made for the Jewish people.
Isaiah 56 the whole chapter deals with the Sabbath and the non-Jew. In fact in Isaiah 66:23, gives us a picture of the new heavens and new earth and us keeping Sabbath. Referring to the destruction of the Temple and the last days, Yahusha in Matthew 24:20-21 admonised His disciples to pray that there flight be not on the Sabbath. If the Sabbath was to change or be everyday then this advise would be somewhat useless. Yes, Israel today closes everything for Sabbath but He was talking to His disciples, which is for us today, because I see myself as a disciple.
Exodus 31:13-18 speaks of it as being an eternal covenant and the verse in Isa. 66:23 bears witness of it this because it is kept in the new heaven and new earth. Man and not God has rationalized and changed God's word by saying that "everyday is the Sabbath when you are in Christ" although I don't see them convocating with the saints or at least trying to get off work. They say it's been changed and cite Colossians as proof of this. When in reality this is a wrong interpretation of God's word. I can say more but suffice it to say...it has not changed, never has and never will. We, and I am just as guilty, have allowed the traditions of man to cloud and sear our conscience to the pure truth of God's word.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 10:12:40 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 993
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. It didn't say it was made for the Jewish people.
Isaiah 56 the whole chapter deals with the Sabbath and the non-Jew. In fact in Isaiah 66:23, gives us a picture of the new heavens and new earth and us keeping Sabbath.
From that same prophetic passage, Isaiah says this:
"17 "Behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed. (Isaiah 65)
This alone is why I don't think you can read the prophets literally. Paul says flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom. This passage is a complete contradiction to immortality being ushered in with he kingdom. Obviously, these passages have an overwhelming spiritual application, not a literal one. Or, like the Ezekiel's temple, they have to be understood as failed prophecies that were conditional on the Israelites themselves. I don't know the exact answer. I just know there's enough there to easily suggest the prophet is speaking figuratively and not wholly literal. The book of Revelation supports what I'm saying. John's visions lean way toward a more figurative understanding of the end-times.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Man and not God has rationalized and changed God's word by saying that "everyday is the Sabbath when you are in Christ" although I don't see them convocating with the saints or at least trying to get off work. They say it's been changed and cite Colossians as proof of this. When in reality this is a wrong interpretation of God's word. I can say more but suffice it to say...it has not changed, never has and never will. We, and I am just as guilty, have allowed the traditions of man to cloud and sear our conscience to the pure truth of God's word.
I submit to you that in all our learning there is something the very early church understand and embraced that we don't have written record of to completely understand. We just know Paul's letter's definately point to a shift away from literal OT worship.
And it's time for you to be honest about your summation of reformists sabbath keeping. You know very well we don't uphold any suggestion whatsoever that we are to rest 24/7, or that we should be meeting everyday of the week. And, so you don't misrepresent our view again, let me make it clear: Resting and congregating have been accomplished through the power and unity of the indwelling Spirit (respectively).
Like Christ's sacrifice satisfying the law of actual sacrifice for sin, so the Holy Spirit fulfills the life and death requirement for sabbath keeping given by God by sealing each of us with the Holy Spirit. The abiding Holy Spirit fulfills the lawful requirement 24/7, not according to an OT time table. And Paul goes into detail about what meeting together means for the NT church now that it has no salvic purpose whatsover anymore (it no longer being an evidence of saving faith). And those he speaks of have no need for a legislated restriction for a particular day or hour now that it has found fulfillment forever and always (24/7) in Christ by the Holy Spirit. Literal Sabbath keeping no longer hangs over our heads as a continuing and ongoing literal requirement that stood opposed to us--nailed to the cross with Jesus.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 10:51:22 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 941
Joined: 11/30/2007
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quote:
Or, like the Ezekiel's temple, they have to be understood as failed prophecies that were conditional on the Israelites themselves. I don't know the exact answer.
Whoa! This sounds like if it doesn't fit into your paradigm of thought, it must be figurative. This is very disturbing...I think a real honest gut/ heart check is appropiate here. When the word doesn't mean what it said and is to be viewed as a "failed prophesy" due to people.
This sounds very alarming to me. You really believe that this book inspired by God is a failed prophesy? Do you really believe that man failure is going to circumvent or obstruct the plans and purposes of God? Do you realize that God was going to destroy the Israelites in the wilderness and raise up seed for Moses to bring out just so that He can fulfill His covenant, which He swore by Himself because there was none other greater to swear?
The prophesies of these verses are as sure as I am breathing air. Even if certain people fail at a particular time, doesn't mean God's word will fail. He made an unconditional promise to Abraham, Issac, Jacob...David. There is no failure in God and there is no failure in His word. I've said it before we do err not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 6:47:16 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1440
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
Isaiah 66:20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed. (Isaiah 65)[/color]
This alone is why I don't think you can read the prophets literally. Paul says flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom. This passage is a complete contradiction to immortality being ushered in with he kingdom. Obviously, these passages have an overwhelming spiritual application, not a literal one. Or, like the Ezekiel's temple, they have to be understood as failed prophecies that were conditional on the Israelites themselves. I don't know the exact answer. I just know there's enough there to easily suggest the prophet is speaking figuratively and not wholly literal. The book of Revelation supports what I'm saying. John's visions lean way toward a more figurative understanding of the end-times.
Falacy: Multiple quotations from diverse authors in different context being treated as equivalent.
Inconsistant argument: Isaiah is seen figuratively because it is not optomistic enough. Ezekiel's vision seen as figurative because it is too optomistic.
quote:
I submit to you that in all our learning there is something the very early church understand and embraced that we don't have written record of to completely understand. We just know Paul's letter's definately point to a shift away from literal OT worship .
Fallacy: Presumed information not in evidence.
Inconsistant argument: Argument rejected based on information not in evidence followed by emphatic assertion of evidence without supporting documentation.
quote:
And it's time for you to be honest about your summation of reformists sabbath keeping. You know very well we don't uphold any suggestion whatsoever that we are to rest 24/7, or that we should be meeting everyday of the week. And, so you don't misrepresent our view again, let me make it clear: Resting and congregating have been accomplished through the power and unity of the indwelling Spirit (respectively).
Fallacy: impuning the integity of the inquirer simply because he may have misunderstood the argument.
quote:
Like Christ's sacrifice satisfying the law of actual sacrifice for sin, so the Holy Spirit fulfills the life and death requirement for sabbath keeping given by God by sealing each of us with the Holy Spirit. The abiding Holy Spirit fulfills the lawful requirement 24/7, not according to an OT time table. And Paul goes into detail about what meeting together means for the NT church now that it has no salvic purpose whatsover anymore (it no longer being an evidence of saving faith). And those he speaks of have no need for a legislated restriction for a particular day or hour now that it has found fulfillment forever and always (24/7) in Christ by the Holy Spirit. Literal Sabbath keeping no longer hangs over our heads as a continuing and ongoing literal requirement that stood opposed to us--nailed to the cross with Jesus.
Fallacies: setting up oneself as an authoritative representative without providing credentials, long winded repetition of ones point while not addressing a direct quote(diversion and propagandizing)
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 6:53:25 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 993
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
quote:
Or, like the Ezekiel's temple, they have to be understood as failed prophecies that were conditional on the Israelites themselves. I don't know the exact answer.
Whoa! This sounds like if it doesn't fit into your paradigm of thought, it must be figurative.
It doesn't fit into my paradigm when it contradicts the NT. Where does mortality fit into the kingdom of God as presented in the NT?
I'm not saying Ezekiel's vision and prophecy is false. I'm saying we must interpret his prophecy according to what we are taught by NT teachers. These OT prophecies must be understood in light of the NT, not the NT understood in light of the old. I say that because the language of the NT is not veiled. Paul talks very plainly about immortality, not mortality. This means either Ezekiel is speaking of another time and circumstance (which like the Temple he spoke of, was conditional on the response of the Israelites), or it's to be interpreted figuratively. I honestly don't know where his prophecy fits into NT theology. Is it absolutely figurative, or is it speaking of a time that could have been, or another time in history, or a blend of all of the above? I don't know. But one thing I do know--it doesn't fit, literally, with the NT description of the age to come. The age we hope for in Christ.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
This is very disturbing...I think a real honest gut/ heart check is appropiate here. When the word doesn't mean what it said and is to be viewed as a "failed prophesy" due to people.
Read it for yourself. The vision of the Temple was not fulfilled because the Israelites simply did not do what they were told to do through the prophet Ezekiel.
10 "Son of man, describe the temple to the people of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their sins. Let them consider the plan, 11 and if they are ashamed of all they have done, make known to them the design of the temple—its arrangement, its exits and entrances—its whole design and all its regulations and laws. Write these down before them so that they may be faithful to its design and follow all its regulations." (Ezek. 43:10-11)
The Israelites did not do as they were instructed. And like the old covenant itself, God has fulfilled his plan and purpose despite the failings of the Israelites. We now know the Temple where the Prince reigns and resides, and where holy sacrifices are made is the hearts and minds of his people, by the Holy Spirit. The prophecy was fulfilled, but, as usual, not according to the letter ("write these down for them" vs.11), but according to the Spirit.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
This sounds very alarming to me. You really believe that this book inspired by God is a failed prophesy?
'Book' is all too encompassing. There are prophecies and requirements in the OT that failed literally, but were fulfilled in a new way, spiritually.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Do you really believe that man failure is going to circumvent or obstruct the plans and purposes of God?
Literally, yes. The old covenant being revoked in favor of the new covenant is an example. What God couldn't do through the old because of man's failure and inadequacy, he has accomplished with the new.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Do you realize that God was going to destroy the Israelites in the wilderness and raise up seed for Moses to bring out just so that He can fulfill His covenant, which He swore by Himself because there was none other greater to swear?
Yes. Perfect example how God so often has fulfilled his plans not according to the 'letter'--the 'letter' you are so sure is iron clad and can never change literally.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
The prophesies of these verses are as sure as I am breathing air. Even if certain people fail at a particular time, doesn't mean God's word will fail. He made an unconditional promise to Abraham, Issac, Jacob...David. There is no failure in God and there is no failure in His word. I've said it before we do err not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God.
'Let God be true and every man a liar' as Paul says. God will fuflill his promises. You just don't understand they don't always get fulfilled the way we naturally expect--by the letter. There is so much proof of this that we can agree on if you'd just let go of your indoctrination. The requirement for animal sacrifice for sin is the premier proof of what I'm saying. Christ, a human being, is sufficient to replace the letter of the law regarding animal sacrifice for sin. And so much so that the whole system of animal sacrifice for sin (the old covenant) was made obsolete by his sacrifice. I didn't say it, Hebrews says it plainly. This is true of many literal things connected to the old covenant, the basis of which was the now defunct sacrificial order.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 7:16:53 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 993
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
Isaiah 66:20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed. (Isaiah 65)[/color]
This alone is why I don't think you can read the prophets literally. Paul says flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom. This passage is a complete contradiction to immortality being ushered in with he kingdom. Obviously, these passages have an overwhelming spiritual application, not a literal one. Or, like the Ezekiel's temple, they have to be understood as failed prophecies that were conditional on the Israelites themselves. I don't know the exact answer. I just know there's enough there to easily suggest the prophet is speaking figuratively and not wholly literal. The book of Revelation supports what I'm saying. John's visions lean way toward a more figurative understanding of the end-times.
Falacy: Multiple quotations from diverse authors in different context being treated as equivalent.
Inconsistant argument: Isaiah is seen figuratively because it is not optomistic enough. Ezekiel's vision seen as figurative because it is too optomistic.
quote:
I submit to you that in all our learning there is something the very early church understand and embraced that we don't have written record of to completely understand. We just know Paul's letter's definately point to a shift away from literal OT worship .
Fallacy: Presumed information not in evidence.
Inconsistant argument: Argument rejected based on information not in evidence followed by emphatic assertion of evidence without supporting documentation.
quote:
And it's time for you to be honest about your summation of reformists sabbath keeping. You know very well we don't uphold any suggestion whatsoever that we are to rest 24/7, or that we should be meeting everyday of the week. And, so you don't misrepresent our view again, let me make it clear: Resting and congregating have been accomplished through the power and unity of the indwelling Spirit (respectively).
Fallacy: impuning the integity of the inquirer simply because he may have misunderstood the argument.
quote:
Like Christ's sacrifice satisfying the law of actual sacrifice for sin, so the Holy Spirit fulfills the life and death requirement for sabbath keeping given by God by sealing each of us with the Holy Spirit. The abiding Holy Spirit fulfills the lawful requirement 24/7, not according to an OT time table. And Paul goes into detail about what meeting together means for the NT church now that it has no salvic purpose whatsover anymore (it no longer being an evidence of saving faith). And those he speaks of have no need for a legislated restriction for a particular day or hour now that it has found fulfillment forever and always (24/7) in Christ by the Holy Spirit. Literal Sabbath keeping no longer hangs over our heads as a continuing and ongoing literal requirement that stood opposed to us--nailed to the cross with Jesus.
Fallacies: setting up oneself as an authoritative representative without providing credentials, long winded repetition of ones point while not addressing a direct quote(diversion and propagandizing)
I see again you have no answers for what I bring up. This is a public forum, so you can share whatever you want, but it'd probably be better if you not participate unless you actually want to bring understanding instead of a critique of my style.
***remember, you are the one who was sure you could discuss this without stooping to this kind of character assasination.
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 10/20/2008 8:01:18 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1440
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Fallacies: setting up oneself as an authoritative representative without providing credentials, long winded repetition of ones point while not addressing a direct quote(diversion and propagandizing)
I see again you have no answers for what I bring up. This is a public forum, so you can share whatever you want, but it'd probably be better if you not participate unless you actually want to bring understanding instead of a critique of my style.
***remember, you are the one who was sure you could discuss this without stooping to this kind of character assasination.
If I can share whatever I want, wouldn't that include pointing out the falacies in ones arguments. You are free to point out how such statements are not falacious.
Ignoring the rules of proper argumentation and debate is not a writing style. It is a detriment to clear discussion. I was countering your statements, not you personally. So, this was not a personal attack.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 10/21/2008 11:32:00 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1657
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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*continued from a post in the General Faith section*
quote:
as long as I keep the Sabbath by attending church?
Attending church and keeping the Sabbath are not the same thing. They are separate commands, though attending church may be part of how you keep the Sabbath. The only way to keep the Sabbath is to set aside a day for rest, with the attitude of thankfulness and appreciation towards God.
Now, don't think "rest" means sitting around doing nothing (though it could). Think of it as... A break from your norm. For instance, if you usually work behind a desk, relatively sedentary for most of the day, then spend a day up and out, doing something active. If, on the other hand, your work is very physical (construction, auto repair, what have you), then you could very well spend the day relaxing in a manner you see fit - with a good movie, good book, or just hanging out with friends/family.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 10/21/2008 4:27:11 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1440
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
*continued from a post in the General Faith section*
quote:
as long as I keep the Sabbath by attending church?
Attending church and keeping the Sabbath are not the same thing. They are separate commands, though attending church may be part of how you keep the Sabbath. The only way to keep the Sabbath is to set aside a day for rest, with the attitude of thankfulness and appreciation towards God.
Now, don't think "rest" means sitting around doing nothing (though it could). Think of it as... A break from your norm. For instance, if you usually work behind a desk, relatively sedentary for most of the day, then spend a day up and out, doing something active. If, on the other hand, your work is very physical (construction, auto repair, what have you), then you could very well spend the day relaxing in a manner you see fit - with a good movie, good book, or just hanging out with friends/family.
I presume this is an opinion. On what do you base this opinion regarding "a break from your norm". The examples I see in the Scriptures do not appear to support this view.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 10/21/2008 4:32:12 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1657
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
I presume this is an opinion.
Everything is an opinion, since everything is based on human interpretation.
quote:
On what do you base this opinion regarding "a break from your norm".
The Sabbath was created for man, not man for the Sabbath; for starters.
quote:
The examples I see in the Scriptures do not appear to support this view.
Which examples would those be?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 10/21/2008 4:58:34 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1440
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
I presume this is an opinion.
Everything is an opinion, since everything is based on human interpretation.
Since you stated it in such aa authoritative manner, I was just wondering whether it was substantiated by a specific Scripture or had been established through rational concensus.
quote:
quote:
On what do you base this opinion regarding "a break from your norm".
The Sabbath was created for man, not man for the Sabbath; for starters.
I do not see that verse as saying the Sabbath defined by what men enjoy, but to provide a benefit to man. I believe the Creator knows better than I what is best for me.
quote:
quote:
The examples I see in the Scriptures do not appear to support this view.
Which examples would those be?
Two examples which appear to be related to gathering things for future use are the gathering of wood and manna. Also, the kindling of a fire. these are just a few that come to mind at the moment. I do not see a lot of detail regarding how to keep the Sabbath, but that does not mean we have no direction.
You statement regarding not doing one's ordinary work seems to be in line with the Scriptures, but that is not the only direction we have received. For example, we are told to have a convocation on the Sabbath.
I hope I can be excused for using an hebraism. I am finding the use of descriptive english phrases to be tedious.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 10/21/2008 10:24:18 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1657
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
Since you stated it in such aa authoritative manner, I was just wondering whether it was substantiated by a specific Scripture or had been established through rational concensus.
Both. : D
quote:
I do not see that verse as saying the Sabbath defined by what men enjoy, but to provide a benefit to man. I believe the Creator knows better than I what is best for me.
Oh sure, it certainly shouldn't just be a matter of what feels good for us. For example, that person with a sedentary job may enjoy spending their free time, say, sitting in front of a computer playing video games all day. But that would not provide a benefit for them. Like I said, God designed us to need rest, and that rest involves getting out and refreshing ourselves. I don't think that can be done by repeating the same thing, with a slightly different flavor, that we've been doing the other 6 days.
quote:
You statement regarding not doing one's ordinary work seems to be in line with the Scriptures, but that is not the only direction we have received. For example, we are told to have a convocation on the Sabbath.
Where is that directed in Scripture?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2008 9:09:11 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 993
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: online
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Can't forget this requirement...
"Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out." (Exodus 16:29)
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 10/22/2008 10:18:53 AM
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restinginHim
Posts: 432
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
You statement regarding not doing one's ordinary work seems to be in line with the Scriptures, but that is not the only direction we have received. For example, we are told to have a convocation on the Sabbath.
Where is that directed in Scripture?
Oooo, (hand up in the air)! I believe i actually know this one, please pardon me for intruding  . Leviticus 23:3 is the answer!
1 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘The feasts of the LORD, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts.
3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
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"As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love." John 15:9
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