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Fritzpw_Admin -> Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 2:05:12 PM)

Discuss the issues surrounding the Sabbath... from everything to the "right" day to worship corporately to how to honor the Sabbath to what Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man.

Discuss it all here.



Chief -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 3:35:30 PM)

I think it is best to start with the commandment.

Exodus 20:8-11

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.



gambit -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 3:49:48 PM)

And it's best to end it with Colossians 2:16.

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration, OR A SABBATH DAY".



bobservations -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 4:31:36 PM)

Chief said: (previous Sabbath thread on what day He was resurrected)
quote:

Sorry to disagree. It is not off-topic. The very resurrection of Jesus bears a lot to the institution of the Lord's day. It is very much part of the discussion. The day of His resurrection is pivotal.


Chief, I don't think that when Jesus resurrection took place has anything to do with when we should worship corporately. Our instructions from the Bible is to not forsake assemblying ourselves together. No day is specified. I think using the argument that we worship on the day of resurrection is skating on thin ice. Not that Sunday is a poor choice for Christians, but we have no scriptural proof that somehow it was santified as the Christian Sabbath or special day of worship.

John in Rev. 1:10 did say he he was in spirit on the Lord's Day, but no command or suggestion tell us when that really was or that we are to commemorate that day. boB



Chief -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 4:45:21 PM)

Bob,

Thanks for considering my last post to saintgrace.

Tell me, does the 4th commandment specify a date?



bobservations -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 5:16:03 PM)

Chief said:
quote:

I think it is best to start with the commandment.

Exodus 20:8-11

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


Very good point Chief. When we analyze the Commandment we first have to find out to whom God was talking to. Who was th recipient of the Command. Duet. 5 tells us it was to the Israelites only. No one including the servants and strangers were included. Only the Levites were to do any work on that day.

If the stranger wanted to keep the Sabbath he had to first be circumsiced. To know this law we have to jump ahead to the Laws of Moses. Without the Laws of Moses they would have had very little idea how God would have wanted them to honor His day. In this version of the Commandment God tell them about His creation and that He blessed the seventh day. We have to remember that after the fall of Adam and Eve nothing is recorded about the Sabbath until after the crossing of the Red Sea. The later version of the Commandment tells them the Sabbath was instituded to commerate the exodus from slavery in Egypt. Duet. 5 12-15. The Israelites were slaves in Egypt and Moses led them out of this bondage, so no one else was commanded to Keep the day holy.

Also, we have to remember that the Sabbath commandment is a ritual law sandwiched between nine moral laws. It was a law that God deemed important for the Israelites. The moral laws were known by man from the very beginning and have been included in the Royal Law that Jesus gave us in the New Covenant. The Commandment of Love.

Most Christians believe laws were nailed to the Cross. Most agree that at least the laws of Moses were. If we take these laws out of the picture, we have little foundation for Sabbath observance. The laws of Moses explain what God required for proper Sabbath observance.

Torah believers have very little New Testament scripture to stand on in light of the New Covenant. Peace, boB



bobservations -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 5:19:51 PM)

Chief ask:
quote:

Tell me, does the 4th commandment specify a date?


I believe it does Chief. Every seventh day.



bobservations -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 5:23:52 PM)

And the Jews will be quick to tell us that time has never been broken, so the present Sabbath day is still in the same time frame as the first one. boB



Chief -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 5:25:43 PM)

What are you afraid of? Isn't it true that the commandment had a specified day for keeping holy?



bobservations -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 5:26:27 PM)

Gambit, glad you are posting. I know the subject is dear to your heart. A good missionary project for the ones on the fence. boB



bobservations -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 5:29:39 PM)

I am not afraid of a a thing for my self, my friend. I am afraid that many will be decieved by those who would put unsuspecting Christians back under the Law.

My salvation is sure. Praise the Lord.



bobservations -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 5:36:24 PM)

Chief, do you agree with my post about not using the resurrection as a law for observing Sunday?



Chief -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 5:38:03 PM)

boB, are you saying that the 1st day replacing the 7th day specification is scipturally orphaned?



Chief -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 5:39:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bobservations

Chief, do you agree with my post about not using the resurrection as a law for observing Sunday?

I don't.



bobservations -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 5:46:01 PM)

Well tell us why.



bobservations -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 5:51:10 PM)

quote:

boB, are you saying that the 1st day replacing the 7th day specification is scipturally orphaned?


If that is how you would phrase it. We have no New Testament command to honor any specific day. The Sabbath was not anyplace transfered to any other day by the inspired writers of the Bible.



Chief -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 5:55:17 PM)

quote:

We have no New Testament command to honor any specific day.
The answer to that is both yes and no.

We are told by the Lord to honor no day as if they cannot be changed. However, as the Lord is the Lord of the Sabbath, it is only God who can change this specification. Would you agree?



bobservations -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 6:06:52 PM)

quote:

We are told by the Lord to honor no day as if they cannot be changed. However, as the Lord is the Lord of the Sabbath, it is only God who can change this specification. Would you agree?


I regret that I don't know where the scripture you are parapharasing in your first sentence.

As to the remainder of your statement, yes, He would be the only one to make this change. The beauty of it all is that the Gentiles were never required to observe the Sabbath, so He didn't have to change anything for us. The Jews who converted were not judged by the law after conversion. They may have remained dedicated to worshipping on the last day of the week, but it was no longer a requirement to do so.



Chief -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 6:42:04 PM)

quote:

It is not a paraphrase of any scriptures. It is a principle that we can derive from the authority of God. Do you think that God does not have the ability to
I was merely taking principles from Col 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" and Ga 4:10
"Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years." As applicable to the tentativeness of observed days in the OT and their applicability in the NT. Suffice it for now that we let this pass. We'll touch on this in a later date.

quote:

As to the remainder of your statement, yes, He would be the only one to make this change.
Good. Now, do you believe that the apostles would not allow any practice in the church to remain constant that are not inspired or allowed by the Holy Ghost?



bobservations -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 7:27:51 PM)

Chief said:
quote:

Good. Now, do you believe that the apostles would not allow any practice in the church to remain constant that are not inspired or allowed by the Holy Ghost?


I think you mean "would allow". Anything that would deter a Christian from commiting fully to Christ would certainly not be allowed. Remember the writings of the Apostles were under inspiration. Those writings are God's word to us through the inspired writers.



Chief -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 11:45:26 PM)

I meant what I wrote but it does not matter. We agree on the sense of what I wrote.

Now, the reason why I had to establish all those things is that I would like to know where we agree on and see how I best introduce to you scriptures that will help you in girding yourself with underscoring the resurrection of Jesus as the reason for the new day for the Christian Sabbath.

But before I go there I would like to establish a few principles that are embedded in the 4th commandment.

First, the principle of the ten commandments' continuation even in the New Covenant. Even though we are not under the bondage of the Law as Israel was, we are not children who are lawless. Lawless children are not God's children. However, the laws of God are now written in our hearts ingrained in us as now, part of our nature. We are not like Israel who were born into a nation and into a system of physical government. Our birth is spiritual and far more superior than that. The applications of the God's laws are spiritual also but since that is true it does not mean that we are not required of obedience. It is still required. What is different from Israel was that Christians have the heart for obedience.

When Jesus was here is slowly showed us how the law is spiritual in many ways. How it is not only obeyed externally but it must also be obeyed in the most hidden parts of our hearts. This is not possible for the nation of Israel. Murder is now applied to ill thoughts to another person, stealing must be replaced by giving, the sabbath must be observed with compassion, lust is committed also in the heart, covetousness is also present in those who do not want to depart with their riches.

Since this were opened up to us by the Lord and the apostles in their epistles I believe that the application of the Moral Law to the believer is far more excellent than the application they had in Israel. What makes it even more excellent is the presence of the Holy Ghost in every believer as his Governor and Teacher.

In summary of this first point the Moral Law still applies to the believer which is now known to have a deeper and spiritual application, granted with ease of observance due to a newer nature and where every believer is personally governed by God Himself, inwardly.

Do you think the above are acceptable?



WScott -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/12/2005 1:34:42 AM)

Well, I know I'm not an original party to this conversation, but I'd like to reply. No, I don't think some of the above is acceptable.

You cannot rip the 'moral law' out of the Old Covenant and try to apply it in the New Covenant. Hebrews 8 and 9 are very specific that the Old Covenant was what was on those tablets of stone and that it was flawed. It's gone, so there is nothing to apply or transfer.

A new law, sometimes referred to by Paul as 'the law of Christ', is what is operational today. Many of the standards taught in the New Testament are similar in nature but with a greatly expanded focus. Not killing is not enough---you must not hate enough to kill is what is required.

Finally, your last paragraph really disturbs me. It reminds me of the SDA idea that 'we are saved so that we might perfectly obey the law through the indwelling power of Christ.' Wrong, wrong, wrong! Our focus is not on a law, our focus is on Christ and growing closer to Him each day. We will NEVER be able to meet the standards of either the Old Covenant or New Covenant law by our actions. We can only meet them in a substitutionary fashion through what Christ has done for us and what we should be allowing Christ to do in us on a daily basis.



Chief -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/12/2005 2:09:28 AM)

Thanks for responding. Although I am trying to establish with Bob some our points of agreement I welcome your comments.

I will acknowledge your points and respond to them but I hope not to linger longer so that I could continue with my discussions with Bob. In which you are most certainly welcome to also comment, disagree or expand.

quote:

Hebrews 8 and 9 are very specific that the Old Covenant was what was on those tablets of stone and that it was flawed. It's gone, so there is nothing to apply or transfer.
The OT is flawed, I agree. But is the Moral law flawed. Maybe in the medium used but not in essence. Where do you think do the apostles write principles to believers regarding fornications, adulteries, lying, stealing, etc? Do you believe that the 10C were repealed? I do not think they were. They may have been written in stone in the Mosaic Covenant, but isn't that law written now in the tablets of our hearts? The law remained but just in different form of documentation (Heb 8:10).

quote:

A new law, sometimes referred to by Paul as 'the law of Christ', is what is operational today. Many of the standards taught in the New Testament are similar in nature but with a greatly expanded focus. Not killing is not enough---you must not hate enough to kill is what is required.
That is also what I meant. I do not know why you call it a disagreement. Please re-read my post. Hopefully it gets clearer the next time around.

quote:

Finally, your last paragraph really disturbs me. It reminds me of the SDA idea that 'we are saved so that we might perfectly obey the law through the indwelling power of Christ.' Wrong, wrong, wrong! Our focus is not on a law, our focus is on Christ and growing closer to Him each day. We will NEVER be able to meet the standards of either the Old Covenant or New Covenant law by our actions. We can only meet them in a substitutionary fashion through what Christ has done for us and what we should be allowing Christ to do in us on a daily basis.
I do not advocate an SDA position, WScott. You are indeed new to this forum. There was a forum called Sabbath vs Sunday and you will see where I stand. Besides, I am trying to explain to Bob how the 7th day Sabbath was changed by believers to the 1st day Sabbath (the Lord's Day).

I hope this made it clear. [;)]



yeshua_seven -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/12/2005 4:15:36 AM)

I believe the Sabbath was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. The Sabbath was not eliminated, but just fulfilled. Now every day is the Sabbath. The purpose of the Sabbath was to rest from our good works and fellowship with God. Thanks to Jesus, we rest in Him from all our works. "Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28-30). Jesus gives us rest from our works, because He already completed the work on the cross. We don't have to be under the burden of sin and death, for Jesus overcame sin and death. Now we just rest in Him. In the old covenant, the Sabbath was the seventh day, which is Saturday. In the new covenant, the Sabbath is everyday. It has nothing to do with going to church on this day or that day.

When lookinig at the Genesis account, notice how at the end of every day during the six days of creation, God said, "And the evening and the morning were the" first day, second day, third day, fourth day, fifth day, and sixth day, but notice He doesn't end the seventh day like that. That is because the Sabbath is to be continous. However, under the old covenant the Sabbath was held every Saturday as a foreshadow of Jesus first advent. In the new covenant, the Sabbath is now a continous seven days a week.

I realize my post may or may not seem too convincing to some, but I haven't studied the Sabbath enough to teach the truth of it to others clearly, but I have heard enough that brings me to believe that the Sabbath was fulfilled in Jesus, and therefore all days of the week are for resting from works. Jesus finished all the work up to and including His death on the cross.

Please keep in mind Romans 14 especially verse 23, "And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Let each person be convinced in His own mind. If anyone doubts that what I spoke of above is true, then keep the Sabbath on Saturday, or Sunday, or which ever day you are convinced it is. I am convinced in my own mind that the Sabbath is every day, for Jesus is our rest and He abides in us and we abide in Him.



bobservations -> RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread (7/12/2005 9:03:17 AM)

Boy, where do I start. Chief, I do understand where you are coming from and believe me I have studied and have come to a real understanding of what Jesus has done for His children. To keep from going through the whole thing again I would like to say that WScott is right on the mark. It would be well to study the scriptures with his thoughts in mind. Yeshua is also on the mark. I would differ in my belief that the Sabbath is every day now. I do agree that in Eden before sin the Sabbath had no ending. Now our Sabbath rest is in Christ. Hebrews makes that very clear. Weekly Sabbath keeping, what ever the day, is not taught or required for Christians. Sabbath in no way was transfered to Sunday. That is not scripturally sound doctrine. It is tradition of men.

Jesus gave us the New Covenant. It is a covenant of Grace. If we Love Him and our fellow man we will treat both from the two laws that Jesus gave us. Love god with all our heart and our fellow man as ourselves.

Either we recieve Jesus and abide in the New Covenat or we are judged by the law and it's demands. We can't have it both ways. Choose ye today.......



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