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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/25/2007 10:38:46 PM
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rosswell59
Posts: 1356
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quote:
Thus proving again where dispensationism leads. A denial of the all sufficience of the work of Christ
This is a complete mischaracterization. Calvinism BTW holds the wrong view of Christ's person in that it believes that he could have sinned but was restrained by the hypostatic union. This is very near heresy! Calvinism also denies the true work of the cross by imputing the righteous law keeping of Christ to the believer rather than the righteousness of God established on the cross.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/26/2007 3:56:20 AM
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sunofone
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I'm sorry to bring out the gavel and put on my robe; But anybody who can see this as anything other than heresy I will mark you as an heretic right with him unless and until I see you repent.I see no point in offering apologies or excuses for him.Let him do his own apologies.I think the responsibility for clearing this up is on him not his faithful followers or weak kneed folk that are afraid to judge clear cut statements that oppose the faith.I'm really upset at some who are not able to call a spade a spade
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/26/2007 4:09:31 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1980
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quote:
Ross:
Hagee denies that the Jews today need to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, just like every other sinner.
I didn't get that from what I saw but if he believes that he is really off. I wonder if he thinks Israel is being saved nationally now before the church is even raptured?
If Hagee can deny that Christ did indeed come as the Messiah of Israel, we should not be surprised that he can also deny that the Jew needs to be born again by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and repenting of his sins, including the denial of Jesus as his Lord and Messiah:
quote:
Yet, of additional and more serious concern is that Hagee reported to the Houston Chronicle that he believes that Jews already have a covenant with God and a relationship to God and do not need to come to the cross. Hearing this is startling. Hagee told the newspaper:
“I believe that every Jewish person who lives in the light of the Torah, which is the word of God, has a relationship with God and will come to redemption.”9
The Houston Chronicle article further reported:
“John Hagee, fundamentalist pastor from San Antonio and friend of Israel, is truly a strange fish. ... The man has a mission. He’s out to attack anti-Semitism. He also believes that Jews can come to God without going through Jesus Christ.”10
The Houston newspaper then quoted Hagee’s own shocking words: “I’m not trying to convert the Jewish people to the Christian faith.”
And further revealed:
“In fact, trying to convert Jews is a ‘waste of time,’ he said. ‘The Jewish person who has his roots in Judaism is not going to convert to Christianity. There is no form of Christian evangelism that has failed so miserably as evangelizing the Jewish people. They (already) have a faith structure.’ Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha’i, needs to believe in Jesus, he says. But not Jews. Jews already have a covenant with God that has never been replaced by Christianity, he says.”11
9. “San Antonio fundamentalist battles anti-Semitism,” Houston Chronicle, April 30, 1988, sec. 6, pg. 1.
10. Ibid.
11. Ibid.
http://www.pfo.org/jonhagee.htm
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/26/2007 6:04:42 AM
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rosswell59
Posts: 1356
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Thanks Ezra,
That settles it for me.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/26/2007 10:30:45 PM
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softrain
Posts: 143
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Jesus Christ gave himself as our personal Savior and Messiah. The Jews were looking for a "King" Messiah to save their "nation". Only a few understood...
_____________________________
Psalm 18:28 For you will light my lamp, Yahweh. My God will light up my darkness.
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/27/2007 1:02:30 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1980
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quote:
ORIGINAL: softrain
Jesus Christ gave himself as our personal Savior and Messiah. The Jews were looking for a "King" Messiah to save their "nation". Only a few understood...
Which is no excuse since Yeshua (Yeho-shua) means "Jehovah our Salvation", and thus His name signifies "He shall save His people FROM THEIR SINS" (Mt. 1:21). Every Jew would know the meaning of Yeshua.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/27/2007 2:22:20 PM
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cajunhillbilly
Posts: 176
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
quote:
Thus proving again where dispensationism leads. A denial of the all sufficience of the work of Christ
This is a complete mischaracterization. Calvinism BTW holds the wrong view of Christ's person in that it believes that he could have sinned but was restrained by the hypostatic union. This is very near heresy! Calvinism also denies the true work of the cross by imputing the righteous law keeping of Christ to the believer rather than the righteousness of God established on the cross.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
I know of No Calvinist who believes that Jesus could have sinned. I studied at Westminster Seminary and was taught that Jesus was sinless and could not sin.. Where are you getting your info? Also it is both the active and passive work of Christ that is imputed. Both His active obedience AND the work on the cross. Gee wizz. If you are going to attack Calvinism, at least attack what it actually believes.
_____________________________
"A Stargate. You know, kind of a ring thing. Comes with a dialer. You hit some symbols. The lights come on. It spins around. And then it flushes sideways" Jack O'Neill on Stargate SG1
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/28/2007 11:32:15 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 2798
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
Every Jew would know the meaning of Yeshua.
This is a point well taken.
If we want to witness to our Jewish friends, we need to
use His appropriate Hebrew name. Jesus is not a Hebrew
name and has no meaning to a Hebrew. So in their minds,
we at best bring them "another Jesus."
Yeshua tells them plenty with just His name.
HaShem = name. They use that term a lot referring to God (YHWH).
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/29/2007 9:53:02 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1993
Joined: 2/26/2006
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The problem is that the Jews were looking for the conquering hero and king in their Messiah, but instead got the suffering servant of Isaiah. Fact is, Jesus was both because His kingdom is not of this world.
The Jews missed that. Hagee misses that. Dispensationalists miss that.
When Jesus says, "it is finished" from the cross, He means that 'it is finished'. The kingdom is being ushered in. This is why he does not answer completely the disciples just before he leaves in Acts 1. He wants them to see that His kingdom is now. Matt. 28:18 mentions that Jesus has all power on Heaven and Earth. He is the messiah of all peoples, both Jew and Gentile, regardless of any rapture heresies, where supposedly Israel is supposed to be saved during the tribulation. Sorry, but today is the day of salvation and Jesus is the Messiah of both the Jews and Gentiles, then and now. When Jesus returns, His kingdom will be complete according to Revelation.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/29/2007 8:36:16 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 2798
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I saw Hagee yesterday and they ran that add, but guess what?
lol. That part you posted was edited out.
Was it a time issue? Well, we could give him the benefit of the doubt.
But I bet he's been receiving some flack about it.
I've been seeing more and more heresy the last few months.
I was reading a report that sounded okay until they got to the
part that Jesus died for the sins of the fallen angels.
Oops, that report slipped into the trash can. lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/29/2007 8:46:33 PM
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rosswell59
Posts: 1356
Joined: 3/25/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger
The problem is that the Jews were looking for the conquering hero and king in their Messiah, but instead got the suffering servant of Isaiah. Fact is, Jesus was both because His kingdom is not of this world.
The Jews missed that. Hagee misses that. Dispensationalists miss that.
When Jesus says, "it is finished" from the cross, He means that 'it is finished'. The kingdom is being ushered in. This is why he does not answer completely the disciples just before he leaves in Acts 1. He wants them to see that His kingdom is now. Matt. 28:18 mentions that Jesus has all power on Heaven and Earth. He is the messiah of all peoples, both Jew and Gentile, regardless of any rapture heresies, where supposedly Israel is supposed to be saved during the tribulation. Sorry, but today is the day of salvation and Jesus is the Messiah of both the Jews and Gentiles, then and now. When Jesus returns, His kingdom will be complete according to Revelation.
When did the lions start laying down with lambs and swords get beaten into plowshares? Did I miss that?
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/30/2007 12:24:52 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1980
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quote:
The problem is that the Jews were looking for the conquering hero and king in their Messiah, but instead got the suffering servant of Isaiah. Fact is, Jesus was both because His kingdom is not of this world.
The Jews missed that. Hagee misses that. Dispensationalists miss that.
Dispensationalists don't miss that. They simply put it in the correct time-slot.
The suffering Servant came to usher in the New Covenant and the Church Age. During the Church Age Christ's Kingdom is "not of this world" in that "the god of this world" is still allowed to have some sway until the coming of the Antichrist.
Following that, Christ will come back to this earth "in power and great glory" to crush the Antichrist and to literally establish His Kingdom on earth. There will be a literal Millenium (1000 year reign), followed by His eternal Kingdom on earth.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/30/2007 2:14:01 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1073
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eh geeze..... This seems to be devolving into another dispensationalism argument. I do not agree with dispensationalism... nor 100% with any other school of thought for that matter. It is quite obvious that the Jews did "miss it" with Jesus... in that Jesus was and is their prophesied Messiah. Had the Jews recieved Him as such, I am sure that a couple of things would have happened. (1) The Romans would have executed Jesus as a seditionist. (2) The Jews would have apostasized just the same. The reason for this is because God loves the entire world, not just the Jews. In His mercy, God prophesied that the Messiah would be beaten and killed for the sins of the whole world (check out Daniel 9, Isaiah 52-54). So no matter how it happened, eventually Jesus would have been killed by the Romans... at the urging of the Jews, or at the objections of the same. Now, because the Messiah had also been prophesied as destroying the enemies of Israel, this would have caused untold thousands to fall away from their faith just the same. There is a seperation in the Bible between the two roles of the Messiah, namely, destroying the sins and injustices of the world, and destroying the enemies of God's people. So Jesus is and is not the Jewish Messiah. He is the Messiah of men's souls, but He will not be the physical rescuer of the Nation of Israel until He returns to the earth in Revelation 19.
So whilst Hagee may have some good ideas in his theology, he has a very poor way of saying them in a 30 second soundbyte. Personally, I'm thoroughly unimpressed by the basic idea of dispensationalism in that it doesn't fully line up with reality. There is a quiet revival happening in the Messianic community, not only within Israel but around the world as well. Currently, there are somewhere around 20,000 Messianic Jews in Israel, and that number is growing steadily. If we are currently in the Church Age, this shouldn't be... but it is.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/30/2007 7:16:41 AM
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rosswell59
Posts: 1356
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Yes, it's sad to see that some have used the Hagee error as an excuse to bash dispensationalism. You can take any doctrinal position good or bad and taken to extremes will always result in error so such criticism is not only unfair but is just simply wrong.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/30/2007 8:48:00 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1993
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
quote:
ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger
The problem is that the Jews were looking for the conquering hero and king in their Messiah, but instead got the suffering servant of Isaiah. Fact is, Jesus was both because His kingdom is not of this world.
The Jews missed that. Hagee misses that. Dispensationalists miss that.
When Jesus says, "it is finished" from the cross, He means that 'it is finished'. The kingdom is being ushered in. This is why he does not answer completely the disciples just before he leaves in Acts 1. He wants them to see that His kingdom is now. Matt. 28:18 mentions that Jesus has all power on Heaven and Earth. He is the messiah of all peoples, both Jew and Gentile, regardless of any rapture heresies, where supposedly Israel is supposed to be saved during the tribulation. Sorry, but today is the day of salvation and Jesus is the Messiah of both the Jews and Gentiles, then and now. When Jesus returns, His kingdom will be complete according to Revelation.
When did the lions start laying down with lambs and swords get beaten into plowshares? Did I miss that?
Yours in Christ,
Ross
Um...not yet. 
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/30/2007 8:50:22 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1993
Joined: 2/26/2006
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Hagee is only spouting off what the Jews believe and preach in their synagogues anyway. If you talk to any orthodox Jew, he will tell you the exact same thing that Hagee is saying. Seems to me that Hagee's friendship with Jews is overriding what the Bible actually says.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/30/2007 10:35:19 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 2798
Joined: 4/13/2005
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We are told to "bless" the nation Israel.
Yet, Hagee leading the way, millions in funds are given
to the sect that teaches the children "against" the Messiah.
Those funds would better be served by Jewish ministries
proclaiming the gospel. There is merit in blessing all Jews,
but the only real blessing is to find the Messiah.
We have done a poor job trying to "christianize" the Jews.
If I were a Jew I would run from a "christian" or a "Jesus follower."
Since it has been the "christian nations" that want to annihilate them.
But now the right approach is being made and Israelites are coming
to their Messiah. Many gentiles are recognizing we serve "their" Messiah.
The times of the Gentiles are rapidly winding down. God's plans are playing
out before our very eyes. Most will "wonder" what happened as they have
in millennia past.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/30/2007 8:35:26 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1073
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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quote:
Then He hasn't set up the kingdom yet.
Yours in Christ, Ross, this may seem like semantics, but He has and He hasn't. The principle I'm working with is "Now, but not yet". There is the "now" in that the Spiritual kingdom IS here. People are getting redeemed from their sins and being renewed in the inner man. People are getting healed, delivered, and, yes, set free. Since these are all signs of the Kingdom (IE, the Kingdom of Heaven) being active in the world, to say that the Kingdom is not here at all is a misnomer... that is one of the main faults of Pre-millenial dispensationalism. However, there is the physical Kingdom (often referred to as the Millenial Kingdom, or the Kingdom of God) also... the one referred to by Isaiah when he talks about the lions and the lambs. So to say that the Kingdom is here in fullness is also a misnomer... one that is propogated mainly by post-millenialism and cessationism. Since both are right and both are wrong, it right answer must include both of them. So He HAS and HAS NOT set up the kingdom... just like the idea of Jesus being the Jewish Messiah... He IS and IS NOT currently. I hope this clarifies my opinion at least a little bit. If anyone is confused, the essence is "Now, but not yet".
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/30/2007 8:49:16 PM
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rosswell59
Posts: 1356
Joined: 3/25/2006
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Adam,
I agree that we are in the kingdom in mystery form but antidispensationalists deny the earthly kingdom promised to Israel altogether and that is what I was addressing.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/30/2007 8:54:53 PM
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rosswell59
Posts: 1356
Joined: 3/25/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger
Hagee is only spouting off what the Jews believe and preach in their synagogues anyway. If you talk to any orthodox Jew, he will tell you the exact same thing that Hagee is saying. Seems to me that Hagee's friendship with Jews is overriding what the Bible actually says.
That explains a lot. It's his friendship which he is adjusting his scripture to not dispensationalism even though it makes him more favorable to the Jews than he would be if he didn't believe it.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/30/2007 8:58:18 PM
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rosswell59
Posts: 1356
Joined: 3/25/2006
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Just to give an example of how a doctrinal stance can lead to wrong conclusions, a replacement theologian could adopt the position that the Jews should be wiped out since God has forsaken them. This would be just as bad as what Hagee is saying.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/30/2007 10:17:55 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1073
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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quote:
I agree that we are in the kingdom in mystery form but antidispensationalists deny the earthly kingdom promised to Israel altogether and that is what I was addressing. Thanks Ross, makes sense... I was worried we were dispensing with the "now"...quote:
Just to give an example of how a doctrinal stance can lead to wrong conclusions, a replacement theologian could adopt the position that the Jews should be wiped out since God has forsaken them. This would be just as bad as what Hagee is saying. Too true... helped add to the mess that was Christianity during World War 2
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/31/2007 4:55:39 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1993
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rosswell59
Adam,
I agree that we are in the kingdom in mystery form but antidispensationalists deny the earthly kingdom promised to Israel altogether and that is what I was addressing.
Yours in Christ,
Ross
anti-dispensationalists...cute...that's as bad as the pro-abortion folks (should I call them anti-life) calling us pro-life folks, anti-abortionists...
Anyway, there is no separate kingdom for the "Israel" you're talking about. The church is Israel (both Jewish and Gentile believers). That's not replacement, that's scripture according to Romans 11.
Anyway, I think we can all agree that Hagee is truly speaking heresy, correct?
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah - 10/31/2007 10:23:16 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 2798
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
Anyway, I think we can all agree that Hagee is truly speaking heresy, correct?
Agreed.
I think if we fully understood the "Olive Tree Theology" (Romans 9-11)
We would find we all have "some" truth, but we're mostly wrong,
as Adam pointed out. It {IS} and it {ISN'T}.
No wonder we have so much confusion. LOL.
Hagee has been in error for some time even before the latest ride he's on.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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