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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 4:32:01 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1959
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
He said
"Jesus don't love you" in that same speech. To those children, sorry but he can keep that nonsense.
I refuse to listen to anyone like that. Some one has to teach them the language of the Bible.
We should not be teaching them that"Jesus don't love them"
I've learned that you cannot partake of the Lord's table and the table of devils.
Tracy,
If, in the same speech about blacks progressing themselves by education, he blasphemed Christianity (essentially "Jesus don't love you" is blasphemy), then I have to take your point as a caution we should heed.
Thanks. I concede the point with a few provisions.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 5/26/2008 5:15:02 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 6:28:37 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
I don't personally care what anyone's dialect is, I still maintain that every American should be able to communicate using proper English. To refuse to or to be unable to is simple laziness and lack of education.
I agree!
But what is a proper american english? It is slang off the King's English. Then we have our own slang, dialect. Do we not teach our children , of course we do. Should people in the south not consider theirselves americans or speaking proper english because I did'nt hear anyone down there speaking "proper" and then when I went to New York City, I don't think I heard it there proper.
What is proper? Where do you learn how to speak it?
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 7:22:03 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
Proper English has correct pronunciation, precise spelling and grammatical rules. It is taught in schools and should be reinforced at home.
According to who? Who says it should be reinforced at home? It is taught at schools as far as I know.
quote:
Case in point: fixing to
"Fixing to" is not proper English. Proper English is "about to." As in, I am about to continue writing this post. Where I live, I hear "fixing to" about a hundred times a day. Everyone says it. (Except for me. ) Everyone knows what it means. That doesn't make it proper English.
quote:
So anyway, the point it that whether your dialect is Southern English, or Boston English, or Chicano English, or Ebonics...there is no reason you shouldn't be able to communicate in proper English. And it certainly isn't racist to expect that, even though I've heard plenty of arguments in that direction.
I never said it was racist. I hear toooo many whites not speaking proper english to claim it is color.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 7:29:48 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3865
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
I hear toooo many whites not speaking proper english to claim it is color.
I totally agree.
_____________________________
Feel free to tell me what you think about this.
"In one century, we went from teaching Greek and Latin in lower schools to teaching remedial English in colleges."
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 8:00:30 PM
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tracydolls
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I did'nt go thru all his speeches. Maybe mixed up the "Jesus don't love you" with Naacp, have to look. but real quick
Part of the speech from Naacp that day.
http://www.eightcitiesmap.com/transcript_bc.htm
"""The church is only open on Sunday. And you can’t keep asking Jesus to ask doing things for you (clapping). You can’t keep asking that God will find a way. God is tired of you (clapping and laughing). God was there when they won all those cases. 50 in a row. That’s where God was because these people were doing something. And God said, “I’m going to find a way.” I wasn’t there when God said it… I’m making this up (laughter). But it sounds like what God would do (laughter). ""'
no maybe this ok with you but not me.
Bill has his reward.
< Message edited by tracydolls -- 5/26/2008 8:08:16 PM >
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/26/2008 8:12:00 PM
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tracydolls
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Do I think kids should be educated? YES.
This system is not working. These kids are going crazy.
They are hardly learning and what they do learn (Evolution and the lies like Columbus "discovered"america) is nonsense.
How to change it?
I said on another thread: Bring the nuns back and some grandparents.
Butt-whippin's
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2008 8:37:05 AM
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lexie
Posts: 3149
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From: Toronto
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quote:
According to who? Who says it should be reinforced at home? It is taught at schools as far as I know.
Reinforcing it at home doesn't necessarily mean speaking it at home though. In our home, some patois is spoken, but we still teach our children the fundamentals of grammar, proper spelling and to speak proper English when outside of the home or with people who don't speak patois.
I do definitely agree though, that this isn't a colour thing, this is a lack of education and a lack of parenting thing, that people no longer speak proper English when needed.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/29/2008 12:59:16 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1959
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
According to who? Who says it should be reinforced at home? It is taught at schools as far as I know.
Tracy,
Efforts toward greater flexibility in English Standard is being made in public schools even as we speak. This has been going on for some time. The effort at not enforcing stardardization is based on the desire to not undermine their self esteem. Used to be, the educated were able to set the standard for what clear English was supposed to.
Obviously, we have to make allowances for colloquial English. Good sound English cannot be enforced at the individual household level. But educated people should speak standard English. If we deviate too far, we would not be able to communicate intelligibly with one another.
In schools and academic circles. Ebonics is really outside the norm. There aren't really any rules and for that reason people debate whether or not it is legitimately a dialect. For example, "be" and "is" are interchangeable.
Nonstandard southern speech does not make any pretense as being just as OK as Ebonics. I was educated and I do not speak a consistent southern colloquial dialect, nor even a good southern accent.
People who cannot spell because they say "fire" like "far" should not be excused as if it doesn't matter. I am not saying that people cannot pronounce words differently because of their vowels. But there are those who cannot write a decent sentence or who cannot spell simple words because they spell them like they say them.
You might note that 80% of my posts are been reedited after my inital post. Many of them are edited several times because of grammatical or spelling mistakes. I do consider a lot of our conversation here to be colloquial. But I do judge the content of other people's posts, in part, based on their grammar. If they are habitually poor spellers or cannot tell when to capitalize a sentence, then I have to consider them of to be of limited education.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 5/29/2008 1:21:33 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 5/29/2008 10:05:28 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3522
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From: my mom by God
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quote:
If we deviate too far, we would not be able to communicate intelligibly with one another.
This is a huge problem.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/3/2008 12:07:17 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
If they are habitually poor spellers or cannot tell when to capitalize a sentence, then I have to consider them of to be of limited education.
Well then I have a very limited education because I often don't take the time to correct my bad grammer, or capitalize a sentence.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/3/2008 12:53:48 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1180
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Well then I have a very limited education because I often don't take the time to correct my bad grammer, or capitalize a sentence.
There's a difference between being a lazy typer and not knowing how to writer correctly. I know many people in real life who are well-educated, well-spoken, etc., but when I get an e-mail from them or talk to them via Instant Messenger, it's a mess! I know that they could write properly if they wanted to, but they choose not to, for whatever reason.
In the same way, I'm sure there are some people out there who write the way they do because they don't know any better. I think this happens all across the board, with race, age, gender, and even "level of education." Heh, just watching an episode of Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader? let's me know some Ph.D. holders don't remember the basics of grammar. ; )
However, I would not say grammar shoud be the measuring line for how we judge someone's education. Some people are just poor writers, but they may be great at math. Or they may be great at art. There are any number of ways to measure someone's intellect, and grammar is certainly not the best or only one.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/3/2008 5:41:40 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1959
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
If they are habitually poor spellers or cannot tell when to capitalize a sentence, then I have to consider them of to be of limited education.
Well then I have a very limited education because I often don't take the time to correct my bad grammer, or capitalize a sentence.
We should. Without attempting to criticize or to be personal, there were a few sentences you wrote that I couldn't interpret.
MrFribbles said
quote:
There's a difference between being a lazy typer and not knowing how to writer correctly. I know many people in real life who are well-educated, well-spoken, etc., but when I get an e-mail from them or talk to them via Instant Messenger, it's a mess! I know that they could write properly if they wanted to, but they choose not to, for whatever reason.
IMHO, they should.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/4/2008 12:51:50 PM
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landabee
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From: Central Florida
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
Landabee posted a link to this blog over in CE and I think it's interesting:
http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2008/05/refuse-to-listen-to-black-anger.html
Prolly should say: don't let the title dissuade you from reading there.
It is a white man in America's views regarding black/white relations in the US.
It is fascinating reading. I don't agree with all that he has to say, but it is very thought provoking.
Stella, what did you find interesting?
_____________________________
"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/4/2008 2:18:47 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 3865
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quote:
ORIGINAL: landabee
Stella, what did you find interesting?
Well, first was this:
quote:
Because black people have long had to study white people if they want to be safe and successful, and because white people rarely have to study black people if they want to be safe and successful, whites have a harder time understanding blacks than blacks have understanding whites.
I'm not sure if by study he means, study in school or not, but I distinctly remember studying many successful black people in school. I can name a whole slew of them and I once did a report on George Washington Carver.
This:
quote:
White people also usually have a hard time realizing that black people don't see the world the same ways that they do, so white people often get confused, dismissive, or frustrated when black people insist that they experience the world differently, and therefore see it differently.
I understand intellectually when it comes to a group. But among my friends of all colors, I've discovered more often that we see the world 99% the same way. We have had very common experiences and have way more in common than not.
And this:
quote:
They may not realize it (middle-class ones, especially), but white people often insist that discussions be conducted in their way, and not in someone else's way. Their calm, rational way, that is, and not another group or culture's more emotionally engaged way.
Again I wonder if he's talking about as a group, because the most volatile, irrational people in my life have always been white.
Anyway, I think it's an interesting essay and I could point out some other things, but I'm sure my reading of this article is also colored by the childhood I spent as a minority and my parents who have always insisted that God created all people equal and demonstrating they believed as much by making sure we had all kinds of people in our lives.
_____________________________
Feel free to tell me what you think about this.
"In one century, we went from teaching Greek and Latin in lower schools to teaching remedial English in colleges."
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/5/2008 6:47:56 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1804
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quote:
We should. Without attempting to criticize or to be personal, there were a few sentences you wrote that I couldn't interpret.
Can you interpret Paul 100%?
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/5/2008 10:22:39 AM
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SuspenseWriter
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I'll say this and bow out. I in 2003 I retired from twenty-five years in the insurance business, where I was an executive vice-president (big whoop, I know, but hear me out). Although I didn't hire and fire directly, I was friends with those who did. And I can't tell you how many times in the boardroom I'd hear one of my fellow execs say to another (paraphrased), "well, it came down to two really good candidates; both of them are recent college grads, and their grades are excellent. But I ended up hiring X simply because she spoke better."
You see, what the corporations won't tell hires is that Ebonics, or heavy New Yawk accents, or Southern-ese, or any of it, will--absent some really big plus a person brings to the table--sometimes keep that person from rising above a certain level with the firm. Why? Because in the eyes of those who can make those promotions happen, Ebonics and other lazy speech makes a person sound stupid.
So are they stupid? I dunno. But in the corporate world, perception is reality. And if you have one person saying, "we be gwine downtown," and another who saying "we'll be going downtown," guess who gets the promotion?
_____________________________
John Robinson
writer of suspense...obviously!
www.johnrobinsonbooks.com
http://www.johnrobinsonbooks.com/my-journal/
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/5/2008 3:03:36 PM
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lexie
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From: Toronto
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stellaluna,
I completely hear what you are talking about. My parents raised me in a similar way. We grew up in a very multi-cultural area, and never were we taught that anyone there was any different from the other. I spent my high school years as the minority, and I think that very greatly coloured my perceptions when it comes to what that blogger was speaking about.
However, then I started to see the world beyond my family and my neighbourhood, and it was pretty interesting. I experienced blatant racism from the police a few times because of the colour of the skin of my friends. I experienced and witnessed blatant racism from my in laws, as well as in the church. And from that, I started to feel an anger. And believe me, it was only through Jesus that I was able to control that, and not let people get to me.
I don't know that I necessarily agree with everything the blogger wrote. I get the trends he is seeing, but we all have to be careful not to apply the trends to everyone, no matter what race we are, or what trend it is. The term "collective black anger" really has me thinking, especially in light of some things I have been seeing in my current neighbourhood, I'm just not sure what it has me thinking (lol...I wrote a huge long post and then deleted it myself.)
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 6/5/2008 5:33:04 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1959
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
We should. Without attempting to criticize or to be personal, there were a few sentences you wrote that I couldn't interpret.
Can you interpret Paul 100%?
Paul wasn't educated in American English and I wasn't educated in Koine Greek. So we don't have a common language.
Obviously there are going to be challenges in reading messages between people. But the difficulty in interpreting shouldn't be grammatical or educational. But if they are educational, we shouldn't be oblivious to that fact. People whose regular language is Ebonics do have the opportunity to speak and learn Standard English. The fact that they don't avail themselves of the opportunity means that they will suffer the consequences. Like it or not, they will be seen as not fully educated.
Indeed, they are not.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 6/5/2008 6:48:32 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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) Everyone knows what it means. That doesn't make it proper English. 
