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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 3:45:26 PM
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lw9
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quote:
zamdad: Not another thread on nudism. This topic seems to pop up about once a year. Seems that, all too frequently, they are brought forth by someone with an agenda. They are disguised as innocent questions to get people eager for conversation to have a dicey topic to talk about.
Ah... must be that time of year once again when some people's thoughts turn to communal nudity. 
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 4:03:48 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
And you seem to believe there is no such thing as a sincere Christian naturist. I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise. (I do understand your reluctance to trust people, though) Although I agree that we can't ultimately know the deep down motivations and thoughts of a person, that doesn't preclude the possibility that two different people might have two different sets of motivations and thoughts. So, although I might be blind to the evil in some, you seem to be blind to the good in others.
You're right, I don't believe there is such thing as a sincere naturist. I also don't believe Christian and naturist can coexist in a sentence together. I can understand you're wanting to give people the benefit of the doubt, but at what cost? If the "lifestyle" doesn't line up with scripture, at what cost are you willing to pay until they "prove otherwise?" Having worked with people as I have I do see the good in them. I'm always looking for the good. But, I'm not going to turn a blind eye to the bad when the bad places risk to others as well as the person concerned. While you're giving them the benefit of the doubt, you're allowing them to risk their salvation and, quite possibly, expose others to danger.
_____________________________
You can't strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
A. Lincoln
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 4:07:43 PM
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gengwall
Posts: 215
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
You're right, I don't believe there is such thing as a sincere naturist. I also don't believe Christian and naturist can coexist in a sentence together. I can understand you're wanting to give people the benefit of the doubt, but at what cost? If the "lifestyle" doesn't line up with scripture, at what cost are you willing to pay until they "prove otherwise?" Having worked with people as I have I do see the good in them. I'm always looking for the good. But, I'm not going to turn a blind eye to the bad when the bad places risk to others as well as the person concerned. While you're giving them the benefit of the doubt, you're allowing them to risk their salvation and, quite possibly, expose others to danger.
Exactly how does the lifestyle not line up with scripture? What possible effect could this have on someone's already obtained salvation? What possible additional danger could there be in these communities that doesn't already exist in our blighted world of "Desparate Housewives" and the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue (amongst the less pornographic media out there)?
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DOGBERRY on posters:
They have committed false report;
moreover, they have spoken untruths;
secondarily, they are slanders;
sixth and lastly, they have belied;
thirdly, they have verified unjust things;
and, to conclude, they are lying knaves
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 4:22:43 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1207
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quote:
gengwall: Exactly how does the lifestyle not line up with scripture?
Are ya kidding?
1 Tim 2:9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
Got any scriptures regarding the early nude church??
And what does Desperate Housewives and Sports Illustrated have to do with how Christians are told to look and behave according to God's word? You are basically saying that because the world is so drenched in sex, we might as well go nude cause it's no worse than the world. Bad reasoning, bad logic.
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 4:30:36 PM
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gengwall
Posts: 215
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From: MN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
gengwall: Exactly how does the lifestyle not line up with scripture?
Are ya kidding?
1 Tim 2:9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
Got any scriptures regarding the early nude church?? Fisrt of all, we aren't talking about a nude church. Secondly, I pointed out early on that public nudity in certain circumstances was not uncommon, and that in all likelyhood, Jesus was even baptised naked. Paul's advice to Timothy is well taken, but it did not address how women were to be clothed at all times in their public life. (In fact, Paul was dealing with a specific kind of woman and their specific kind of behavior.) The reality is that nowhere does the bible say that public nudity is inherently and invariably sinful. The circumstances and context define what is sinful and what isn't.
quote:
And what does Desperate Housewives and Sports Illustrated have to do with how Christians are told to look and behave according to God's word? You are basically saying that because the world is so drenched in sex, we might as well go nude cause it's no worse than the world. Bad reasoning, bad logic.
I was responding to the specific claim that a naturist community "expose('s) others to danger". My point is that it doesn't expose one to any more danger than our sex saturated world does. In fact, considering the purposeful de-emphasis on sexuality in these communities, I would say that it has the potential to be a much healthier environment than most of us our immerssed in on a daily basis.
_____________________________
DOGBERRY on posters:
They have committed false report;
moreover, they have spoken untruths;
secondarily, they are slanders;
sixth and lastly, they have belied;
thirdly, they have verified unjust things;
and, to conclude, they are lying knaves
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 4:53:01 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
Exactly how does the lifestyle not line up with scripture? What possible effect could this have on someone's already obtained salvation? What possible additional danger could there be in these communities that doesn't already exist in our blighted world of "Desparate Housewives" and the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue (amongst the less pornographic media out there)?
Like I said, Gengwall, you seem to be seeing what you want to see here. I agree with the other poster who said you seem to be saying, "If you can't beat em, join em."
LIke I asked you, why would someone expose their family/children to a nudist camp? What's the motivation for becoming part of a nudist community? Where does the interest in nudism come from? If someone is totally uncomfortable in clothing, why not be naked at home? Why share this fixation with a group of others?
quote:
I pointed out early on that public nudity in certain circumstances was not uncommon, and that in all likelyhood, Jesus was even baptised naked. Paul's advice to Timothy is well taken, but it did not address how women were to be clothed at all times in their public life. (In fact, Paul was dealing with a specific kind of woman and their specific kind of behavior.) The reality is that nowhere does the bible say that public nudity is inherently and invariably sinful. The circumstances and context define what is sinful and what isn't.
Yet, this entirely misses the point of a community that is based on lack of clothing. What's the motivation? Seems to me that the puropse and context of nudism is based on something other than righteousness.
quote:
My point is that it doesn't expose one to any more danger than our sex saturated world does. In fact, considering the purposeful de-emphasis on sexuality in these communities, I would say that it has the potential to be a much healthier environment than most of us our immerssed in on a daily basis.
I would say that your desire to see only the good would allow you to be duped. Why would any parent expose their children to nudism knowing that there are going to be perverts looking at them sexually? Whay would any man who desires to see more nude women ask his wife to join a nudist camp knowing that there are going to be other men commiting adultery in their minds? The deemphasis of sexuality is a ruse. It's meaningless words geared to get you to see what they want you to see. Playing on yours and others deire to see only the good in others knowing that we don't want to be judged as judgmental.
_____________________________
You can't strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
A. Lincoln
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 5:00:35 PM
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lw9
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quote:
gengwall: Fisrt of all, we aren't talking about a nude church.
Then just as now, it's the people who *are* the church. No matter where they go and no matter where they are, Christians are the church, so my comment wasn't limited to meeting on Sunday inside a building.
quote:
The reality is that nowhere does the bible say that public nudity is inherently and invariably sinful. The circumstances and context define what is sinful and what isn't.]
And where is this acceptance of communal public nudity among believing adults in the Bible? Feel free to post those verses. The Bible has several examples describing the shame of being uncovered, starting with Adam and Eve.
In regards to the affect we have on others, if a person is dressed modestly and someone still lusts after them, shame on the person doing the lusting. If a person is immodestly clothed - or not clothed at all - and someone lusts after them, shame on BOTH of them.
quote:
I was responding to the specific claim that a naturist community "expose('s) others to danger". My point is that it doesn't expose one to any more danger than our sex saturated world does.
Your reasoning still seems to end at the same place: It's no worse or any more dangerous than what the world participates in, so go ahead.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 4/11/2008 5:12:31 PM >
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Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 5:07:54 PM
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gengwall
Posts: 215
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Like I said, Gengwall, you seem to be seeing what you want to see here. I agree with the other poster who said you seem to be saying, "If you can't beat em, join em."
LIke I asked you, why would someone expose their family/children to a nudist camp? What's the motivation for becoming part of a nudist community? Where does the interest in nudism come from? If someone is totally uncomfortable in clothing, why not be naked at home? Why share this fixation with a group of others? I'll ignore your ignoring of the scriptural question for now.
Many people raise their families to have a more natural and unsexualized view of the human body, even if they don't go to the extent of seeking out a community to live in. There is nothing wrong with teaching your kids that the human body does not have to be and only be viewed through a sexual lens. Even my father, who was a doctor, brought us up this way.
The interest in nudism (in a non-pervert) comes from a desire to return to the Edenic state where we came from. All of us desire a return "to the garden". Some are more capable of making the journey and have traveled further down the road than others.
Many naturists do go primarily unclothed at home. But, when they are looking for a vacation or other diversion, they want to seek an environment they have grown comfortable in.
You presume a fixation where none necessarily exists. The naturist would claim it is you who have the fixation based on some satan induced shame where God intended none to exist.
quote:
Yet, this entirely misses the point of a community that is based on lack of clothing. What's the motivation? Seems to me that the puropse and context of nudism is based on something other than righteousness. Why so? Certainly it might be based in unrighteous motivation but there is no reason it must be based in unrighteous motivation. People are capable of having differing views, attitudes, motivations, and behaviors than you or the people you deal with in your work. Nakedness for nakedness sake is righteously neutral. It is neither good nor evil on its face. As such, it can be either good or evil in its observance, depending on circumstance and context.
I bring up biblical examples of acceptable public nudity not to equate them to a naturist resort, beach, or community, but to simply point out that there is no definative right or wrong. The cases of acceptable public nudity are not intended to be an exhaustive list of acceptable circumstances. Other potentially acceptable circumstances are possible.
quote:
I would say that your desire to see only the good would allow you to be duped. Why would any parent expose their children to nudism knowing that there are going to be perverts looking at them sexually? Whay would any man who desires to see more nude women ask his wife to join a nudist camp knowing that there are going to be other men commiting adultery in their minds? The deemphasis of sexuality is a ruse. It's meaningless words geared to get you to see what they want you to see. Playing on yours and others deire to see only the good in others knowing that we don't want to be judged as judgmental.
Again, you presume too much and observe too little. Not only can a group of people coexist in an environment where none of them view the innocent display of the human body in a sexual manner, but the covering up of the human body does very little to prevent perverts and adulterers from getting their thrills.
I do think it rather funny that we speculate to our wits end on the effect growing up with a naturist mindset and interacting with a naturist community will have on young minds, but then we let our daughters and wives dress (and even act) like whores even in church and don't think for one second the impact that might have. Seriously, we have a lot more perversion going on in clothed society today, where ogglers and "mind adulterers" go uninvestigated, unchecked, and unchallenged, than naturists have in their environments where even the slightest hint of impropriety is cause for sensorship and expulsion from the community.
< Message edited by gengwall -- 4/11/2008 5:29:06 PM >
_____________________________
DOGBERRY on posters:
They have committed false report;
moreover, they have spoken untruths;
secondarily, they are slanders;
sixth and lastly, they have belied;
thirdly, they have verified unjust things;
and, to conclude, they are lying knaves
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 5:35:49 PM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
Posts: 26353
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Here, but subject to change . . . stay tuned!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
Many people raise their families to have a more natural and unsexualized view of the human body, even if they don't go to the extent of seeking out a community to live in. There is nothing wrong with teaching your kids that the human body does not have to be and only be viewed through a sexual lens. Even my father, who was a doctor, brought us up this way. No there isn't. But to turn a blind eye to reality and expect the rest of the world to think similarly is naive and possibly even dangerous.
quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
The interest in nudism (in a non-pervert) comes from a desire to return to the Edenic state where we came from. All of us desire a return "to the garden". Some are more capable of making the journey and have traveled further down the road than others. No one can return to Eden any more; no matter how much they might want to or even think they are making such journey. It simply isn't possible anymore; and hasn't been since Adam and Eve were cast out of it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
Many naturists do go primarily unclothed at home. But, when they are looking for a vacation or other diversion, they want to seek an environment they have grown comfortable in. That's not necessarily true. I used to walk around my house unclothed, and I never wanted to go find other people so we could walk around naked with each other. Additionally, after earning what I have about someone who is a naturist, I now prefer to cover up even when I'm by myself.
quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
quote:
I would say that your desire to see only the good would allow you to be duped. Why would any parent expose their children to nudism knowing that there are going to be perverts looking at them sexually? Whay would any man who desires to see more nude women ask his wife to join a nudist camp knowing that there are going to be other men commiting adultery in their minds? The deemphasis of sexuality is a ruse. It's meaningless words geared to get you to see what they want you to see. Playing on yours and others deire to see only the good in others knowing that we don't want to be judged as judgmental.
Again, you presume too much and observe too little. Not only can a group of people coexist in an environment where none of them view the innocent display of the human body in a sexual manner, but the covering up of the human body does very little to prevent perverts and adulterers from getting their thrills. RE: the bolded part . . . I have already shown that this isn't always true.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 5:41:39 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
Secondly, I pointed out early on that public nudity in certain circumstances was not uncommon, and that in all likelyhood, Jesus was even baptised naked. Paul's advice to Timothy is well taken, but it did not address how women were to be clothed at all times in their public life. (In fact, Paul was dealing with a specific kind of woman and their specific kind of behavior.) The reality is that nowhere does the bible say that public nudity is inherently and invariably sinful. The circumstances and context define what is sinful and what isn't.
Early in this thread it was pointed out that Lev 18 among other passages clearly forbid exposing oneself. Given that, it is highly unlikely that Yeshua would have undergone a public mikvah(baptism) in the nude. If He did, such s blatent violation of Torah would have been mentioned somewhere. Also, if I accept your "circumstances and context" argument, on what basis does one evaluate those circumstances and context.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/11/2008 10:27:41 PM
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zamdad
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Gengwall, three is currently another thread about sex offenders in the church. One common these keeps recurring in that thread. Discernment. We need to be discerning to protect our selves, our families and our neighbors from harm. Your posts on this topic lack discernment. While you might want to see the good in people all the time, you seem to be turning a blind eye to the dark side of humanity which often disguises itself as light.
_____________________________
You can't strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
A. Lincoln
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/15/2008 10:43:06 PM
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Ad-Imaginem-Dei
Posts: 41
Joined: 3/31/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
gengwall: Exactly how does the lifestyle not line up with scripture?
Are ya kidding?
1 Tim 2:9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
Got any scriptures regarding the early nude church??
And what does Desperate Housewives and Sports Illustrated have to do with how Christians are told to look and behave according to God's word? You are basically saying that because the world is so drenched in sex, we might as well go nude cause it's no worse than the world. Bad reasoning, bad logic.
Your use of 1 Timothy 2:9 is not as sure as you might think. I posted about that here:
http://forums.christianity.com/fb.aspx?m=3263714
Let me ask you this... is that verse the only "clear" verse you can point to regarding "modesty"... or making sure that we keep dressed at all times?
The issue of "what do I do with my nude body?" has been a question that every human being that has ever lived must face. In light of that reality, I find it rather remarkable that God seems to be so silent about it.
It's interesting that God never tells men that they must never see any woman's body but their wife's.
It's interesting that God never tells a woman to never let any man see her body except her husband.
Historians tell us that in ancient Egypt, children went nude until the age of 12 or so, and then thereafter, workers and slaves commonly went nude. God's Law, given immediately after the exodus, explicitly prohibits many of the wicked activities which characterized the nations that surrounded the people of Israel. Yet, we find no clear clear instructions on making sure that you bathe in private or walk around your homestead adequately clothed.
What we do find in Scripture is a law requiring that if a person borrows something from his neighbor, leaving his cloak as a security deposit, that the one who made the loan must return that cloak by nightfall so he would have some covering while he slept. In fact the Scriptures specifically say that it is his only covering.
quote:
Ex. 22:26-27a "If you ever take your neighbor's cloak as a pledge, you are to return it to him before the sun sets, for that is his only covering; it is his cloak for his body. What else shall he sleep in?..." (NASB)
Instead of forbidding a man to take his only covering to use as a security deposit, the law allows him to do that, but not for the loan officer to keep it over night. Evidently, for the man to go with no covering during the day was not forbidden. Evidently God was more concerned that a person's body be warm by night than that it be unseen by day.
Are we not in danger of adding to God's Word when we declare absolutes which cannot be found in the Words of God Himself?
That is a mistake I would rather avoid.
AID
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/15/2008 11:02:32 PM
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lw9
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Ad-Imaginem-Dei:
So... for your first two posts as a new member you decided to make a bee line for the nudie thread and set us all straight on how we are actually the ones adding and twisting scripture to our own puritanical purposes? lol!
quote:
... I find it rather remarkable that God seems to be so silent about it.
He's not been silent at all.
quote:
Historians tell us that in ancient Egypt, children went nude until the age of 12 or so, and then thereafter, workers and slaves commonly went nude.
And we are looking to the ancient Egyptians... why?
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In fact the Scriptures specifically say that it is his only covering.
Ex. 22:26-27 automatically means to you that the man went nude all day? Apparently it couldn't possibly mean that he had nothing warm to cover himself up with at night... ya know, cloak being the equivalent of a coat and all. Interesting.
Just wondering, but are you a nudist?
< Message edited by lw9 -- 4/15/2008 11:11:25 PM >
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Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/15/2008 11:29:04 PM
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Ad-Imaginem-Dei
Posts: 41
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
The interest in nudism (in a non-pervert) comes from a desire to return to the Edenic state where we came from. All of us desire a return "to the garden". Some are more capable of making the journey and have traveled further down the road than others. No one can return to Eden any more; no matter how much they might want to or even think they are making such journey. It simply isn't possible anymore; and hasn't been since Adam and Eve were cast out of it.
Rose, do you find that assertion stated anywhere in Scripture? Are we ever instructed to abandon as "unattainable" anything (or everything) that was true in the Garden?
Yes, I would agree that this side of heaven, we will not be able to know the fullness of purity and wholeness that characterized the relationships found in the Garden, but that should not keep us from seeking to pursue that purity and wholeness.
For example, man's relationship with God was forever altered at the Fall. Yet we surely should pursue purity and wholeness in our relationship with God... with all our hearts... never settling for "good enough."
The relationship between a man and his wife was forever damaged at the Fall. Yet we surely should pursue purity and wholeness in our relationship with our spouse. It's hard work, and we'll never be perfect at it, but we most certainly should try.
Jesus Himself referenced the pre-fall relationship between a man and wife when he answered the pharisees who asked Him about divorce. "...from the beginning, it was not so..." He said (JN. 19:8 KJV). In other words, the model for marriage today is still the pre-fall reality and purpose found in the Garden.
How can we be sure then that a perfect return to "naked and unashamed" is simply impossible to attain and therefore should not even be attempted?
Perhaps you are correct, but I would appreciate seeing more biblical content than you provided to make your case.
AID
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/15/2008 11:38:00 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11636
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quote:
For example, man's relationship with God was forever altered at the Fall. Yet we surely should pursue purity and wholeness in our relationship with God... with all our hearts... never settling for "good enough."
Somehow, running around with a bunch of naked people does not strike me as a good way to pursue purity and wholeness in our relationship with God....
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/15/2008 11:57:07 PM
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Ad-Imaginem-Dei
Posts: 41
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Ad-Imaginem-Dei:
So... for your first two posts as a new member you decided to make a bee line for the nudie thread and set us all straight on how we are actually the ones adding and twisting scripture to our own puritanical purposes? lol!
And I care deeply about the truth and "rightly dividing" the Word of Truth. I have been doing some indepth study of the meaning of the Imago Dei. I have found that many times people have presumed all sorts of things in reference to our bodies which simply are not stated in Scripture. I have come to question assertions which are not based on the clear and correct interpretation of God's Word.
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... I find it rather remarkable that God seems to be so silent about it.
He's not been silent at all.
Then please tell me where and how God tells us to be ashamed of our bodies as He made them? Where does He command us to keep them covered at all times?
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Historians tell us that in ancient Egypt, children went nude until the age of 12 or so, and then thereafter, workers and slaves commonly went nude.
And we are looking to the ancient Egyptians... why? I must not have made myself clear, I apologize. I was not at all suggesting that Ancient Egypt is the model for our attire today. I was simply pointing out that the Israelites must have been very accustomed to the openness to nudity that characterized their host nation.
My point is this... Many of the laws found in the OT were given to set God's people apart from their neighbors. Yet not once do we find that the Israelites were commanded to spurn the practices of open nudity found in Egypt. Could we even remotely suggest that it was an oversight on God's part? God did not directly address it. He could have, and he should have, but He didn't. Can you explain why? I cannot... except to wonder if perhaps He is not so opposed to it as we have become in 21st century America.
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In fact the Scriptures specifically say that it is his only covering.
Ex. 22:26-27 automatically means to you that the man went nude all day? Apparently it couldn't possibly mean that he had nothing warm to cover himself up with at night... ya know, cloak being the equivalent of a coat and all. Interesting.
It is a clear indication of the scarcity of clothing in biblical times. It points to a very different cultural reality than we live in today. I'm simply taking it for exactly what it says. "It is his only covering" On what basis should we presume that "only" doesn't mean "only"?
quote:
Just wondering, but are you a nudist?
I am a follower of Jesus and a biblicist. Nothing more.
AID
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/16/2008 12:21:12 AM
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Ad-Imaginem-Dei
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
quote:
For example, man's relationship with God was forever altered at the Fall. Yet we surely should pursue purity and wholeness in our relationship with God... with all our hearts... never settling for "good enough."
Somehow, running around with a bunch of naked people does not strike me as a good way to pursue purity and wholeness in our relationship with God....
Yet, when we read Genesis 1, we find that, evidently, that was God's original intent. Do we have clear evidence to the contrary?
It's pretty clear that Adam and Eve did not reject nudity until they also rejected "purity and wholeness." If there's any obvious correlation here, it is to be found between sin and the rejection of nudity -- the exact opposite of what we have come to believe today.
The feeling of "needing clothes" did not come from God, but was instead the direct result of sin. It sprung from a mind that rebelled against God... or perhaps even it came directly from the mouth of Satan (God's question to Adam was, "WHO told you that you were naked?"). Furthermore, it seems that God's question indicates that He was not pleased with their discomfort with how He made them.
Must we persist in that same discomfort? Is that really God's will for us now? If so, when did God's perspective on a person's unclothed body change? Does He ever actually tell us that?
AID
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/16/2008 1:07:59 PM
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gengwall
Posts: 215
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MN
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ad-Imaginem-Dei
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
quote:
For example, man's relationship with God was forever altered at the Fall. Yet we surely should pursue purity and wholeness in our relationship with God... with all our hearts... never settling for "good enough."
Somehow, running around with a bunch of naked people does not strike me as a good way to pursue purity and wholeness in our relationship with God....
Yet, when we read Genesis 1, we find that, evidently, that was God's original intent. Do we have clear evidence to the contrary?
It's pretty clear that Adam and Eve did not reject nudity until they also rejected "purity and wholeness." If there's any obvious correlation here, it is to be found between sin and the rejection of nudity -- the exact opposite of what we have come to believe today.
The feeling of "needing clothes" did not come from God, but was instead the direct result of sin. It sprung from a mind that rebelled against God... or perhaps even it came directly from the mouth of Satan (God's question to Adam was, "WHO told you that you were naked?"). Furthermore, it seems that God's question indicates that He was not pleased with their discomfort with how He made them.
Must we persist in that same discomfort? Is that really God's will for us now? If so, when did God's perspective on a person's unclothed body change? Does He ever actually tell us that?
AID
Two different Hebrew words are used for Genesis 2 and Genesis 3 even though both are translated "naked". The have significantly different meanings.The Genesis 2 word means a simple state of undress. The Genesis 3 word means to be "exposed" in a metaphorical sense, as in, "their sinful nature was exposed to them".
Although I disagree with a lot of Matthew Henry's commentary on the fall, I feel he eloquently captures the full meaning of this Hebrew word translated naked and its impact and application to the first couple:
quote:
Shame seized them unseen, v. 7, where observe, (1.) The strong convictions they fell under, in their own bosoms: The eyes of them both were opened. It is not meant of the eyes of the body; these were open before, as appears by this, that the sin came in at them. Jonathan’s eyes were enlightened by eating forbidden fruit (1 Sa. 14:27), that is, he was refreshed and revived by it; but theirs were not so. Nor is it meant of any advances made hereby in true knowledge; but the eyes of their consciences were opened, their hearts smote them for what they had done. Now, when it was too late, they saw the folly of eating forbidden fruit. They saw the happiness they had fallen from, and the misery they had fallen into. They saw a loving God provoked, his grace and favour forfeited, his likeness and image lost, dominion over the creatures gone. They saw their natures corrupted and depraved, and felt a disorder in their own spirits of which they had never before been conscious. They saw a law in their members warring against the law of their minds, and captivating them both to sin and wrath. They saw, as Balaam, when his eyes were opened (Num. 22:31), the angel of the Lord standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand; and perhaps they saw the serpent that had abused them insulting over them. The text tells us that they saw that they were naked, that is, [1.] That they were stripped, deprived of all the honours and joys of their paradise-state, and exposed to all the miseries that might justly be expected from an angry God. They were disarmed; their defence had departed from them. [2.] That they were shamed, for ever shamed, before God and angels. They saw themselves disrobed of all their ornaments and ensigns of honour, degraded from their dignity and disgraced in the highest degree, laid open to the contempt and reproach of heaven, and earth, and their own consciences. Now see here, First, What a dishonour and disquietment sin is; it makes mischief wherever it is admitted, sets men against themselves disturbs their peace, and destroys all their comforts. Sooner or later, it will have shame, either the shame of true repentance, which ends in glory, or that shame and everlasting contempt to which the wicked shall rise at the great day. Sin is a reproach to any people. Secondly, What deceiver Satan is. He told our first parents, when he tempted them, that their eyes should be opened; and so they were, but not as they understood it; they were opened to their shame and grief, not to their honour nor advantage. [my emphasis]
_____________________________
DOGBERRY on posters:
They have committed false report;
moreover, they have spoken untruths;
secondarily, they are slanders;
sixth and lastly, they have belied;
thirdly, they have verified unjust things;
and, to conclude, they are lying knaves
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/16/2008 7:56:55 PM
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Ad-Imaginem-Dei
Posts: 41
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
[...Although I disagree with a lot of Matthew Henry's commentary on the fall, I feel he eloquently captures the full meaning of this Hebrew word translated naked and its impact and application to the first couple:...
Genwall,
While I have to agree that that is a very eloquent piece you quoted, I can't help but think that it gives Adam and Eve way too much "credit" for understanding what had just transpired.
If we believe in the doctrine of depravity (which I do), then we have to say that it was at the moment of having disobeyed God that Adam and Eve became depraved of mind.
Think for a moment how catastrophic that must have been, and how confusing it must have been. One moment, they know no sin, no broken fellowship, no shame, no distrust, no unkindness, nothing of the many ways we experience the effects of depravity on our hearts and minds... then a moment later, they literally cannot think straight any more. They were confused and afraid and ashamed and self-centered... and -- I would suggest -- completely clueless about the ramifications of -- or cure for -- what had just happened.
Did they understand their nakedness metaphorically at that moment? How could they have instantly acquired this tremendously deep comprehension and theological understanding? As I consider the context of the narrative, I can only conclude that they were scared witless (quite literally!). They knew that everything was different and that God was walking to meet them, and that this wasn't going to go well at all.
Where did Adam come up with the word "naked" anyway? In a world where no one wears clothes and no one had ever worn clothes, such a term would have no reason to even exist (remember that the phrase "naked and unashamed" was written well after the fact as a commentary on what the reality had been). He must have made the word up at that moment, or else someone else (Satan) invented the word to cause Adam to consider his nakedness to be "the problem." I think we would all agree that at the moment, the nakedness was NOT the problem. Adam's heart was.
No, Adam and Eve were more confused and out of their minds than they had ever been in their lives. Attributing so much metaphorical understanding to their plight at the moment is simply not realistic. They put on fig leaves because all they knew was that something was terribly wrong, and God was coming... they had to do something. When He arrived, they didn't just hide their genitals, they hid themselves. If they had truly understood their situation, they would have skipped the fig leaves and cast themselves on the mercy of God. Instead, they serve as a clear example of how NOT to respond to your sin before God.
AID
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RE: Nude Resorts or Beaches - 4/16/2008 10:04:04 PM
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keepitreal
Posts: 52
Joined: 12/21/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ad-Imaginem-Dei
quote:
ORIGINAL: gengwall
[...Although I disagree with a lot of Matthew Henry's commentary on the fall, I feel he eloquently captures the full meaning of this Hebrew word translated naked and its impact and application to the first couple:...
Genwall,
While I have to agree that that is a very eloquent piece you quoted, I can't help but think that it gives Adam and Eve way too much "credit" for understanding what had just transpired.
If we believe in the doctrine of depravity (which I do), then we have to say that it was at the moment of having disobeyed God that Adam and Eve became depraved of mind.
Think for a moment how catastrophic that must have been, and how confusing it must have been. One moment, they know no sin, no broken fellowship, no shame, no distrust, no unkindness, nothing of the many ways we experience the effects of depravity on our hearts and minds... then a moment later, they literally cannot think straight any more. They were confused and afraid and ashamed and self-centered... and -- I would suggest -- completely clueless about the ramifications of -- or cure for -- what had just happened.
Did they understand their nakedness metaphorically at that moment? How could they have instantly acquired this tremendously deep comprehension and theological understanding? As I consider the context of the narrative, I can only conclude that they were scared witless (quite literally!). They knew that everything was different and that God was walking to meet them, and that this wasn't going to go well at all.
Where did Adam come up with the word "naked" anyway? In a world where no one wears clothes and no one had ever worn clothes, such a term would have no reason to even exist (remember that the phrase "naked and unashamed" was written well after the fact as a commentary on what the reality had been). He must have made the word up at that moment, or else someone else (Satan) invented the word to cause Adam to consider his nakedness to be "the problem." I think we would all agree that at the moment, the nakedness was NOT the problem. Adam's heart was.
No, Adam and Eve were more confused and out of their minds than they had ever been in their lives. Attributing so much metaphorical understanding to their plight at the moment is simply not realistic. They put on fig leaves because all they knew was that something was terribly wrong, and God was coming... they had to do something. When He arrived, they didn't just hide their geni | | |
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