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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/26/2007 5:22:27 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3241
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
Status: offline
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quote:
Never listen to the nay-sayers who believe it's their "duty" to cleanse the church from all the wrongs they mistakenly read into everything and everyone around them.
And never, ever listen to those who don't follow the Scriptures concerning this sort of thing:
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. -I John 4
quote:
IHOP is definately NOT part of the latter rain movement and Mike Bickle definately says that he is not a prophet.
If you do any research whatsoever on Mike Bickle, you will find he is like the proverbial leopard who has never really changed his spots...he's still into a lot of the same things he was before he took all the heat over the Kansas City Prophets fiasco, he just calls it something else.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/26/2007 6:30:37 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1501
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
Never listen to the nay-sayers who believe it's their "duty" to cleanse the church from all the wrongs they mistakenly read into everything and everyone around them.
And never, ever listen to those who don't follow the Scriptures concerning this sort of thing:
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. -I John 4
quote:
IHOP is definately NOT part of the latter rain movement and Mike Bickle definately says that he is not a prophet.
If you do any research whatsoever on Mike Bickle, you will find he is like the proverbial leopard who has never really changed his spots...he's still into a lot of the same things he was before he took all the heat over the Kansas City Prophets fiasco, he just calls it something else.
I've done better than that. I've read his books, I've been to his conferences and I've actually listened to him first hand. Unlike others who tend to only listen to gossip and who use scripture wrongfully, thinking that they are being good bereans. Yes, test the spirits - which is exactly what we need to do when we hear the "castigating accuser of the brethren spirit" that comes out of many who are on these forums. Definately test the spirits.
_____________________________
MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/26/2007 6:35:40 PM
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ServantPrincess
Posts: 49
Joined: 5/15/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: ServantPrincess
I apologize if i'm a bit off tangent here but do you honestly believe the office of the prophet ceased to exist?
Yes.
Convenient excuse...
quote:
Mercy me! Your response is based on.......?
Scripture. Eph 2:20 is one example.
Not so convenient misinterpretation....narrow at best. Do provide other Scripture that directly say which offices have 'ceased to exist'. Tenous deductions do not apply.
quote:
Please list all the other offices you believe to have ceased.
Apostle
I don't want to take this thread off topic. If you wish to discuss this further I would suggest starting another thread.
Or you can check out this thread
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/26/2007 8:16:49 PM
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floydette
Posts: 1107
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
yasou,
You would do better to do your own research. Go to the IHOP site, read their literature and talk to people, like Adam, who attend.
IHOP is a wonderful place and you will get negative remarks that aren't true from the many people on this site who really have no understanding whatsoever of the supernatural or how God moves through and speaks to people. IHOP is definately NOT part of the latter rain movement and Mike Bickle definately says that he is not a prophet.
IHOP is a place whose focus is JESUS, period. I'm not sure how you think it's not the right focus. They believe in creating a place where worship and prayer ascend to God 24/7. It's an awesome thing and I believe truly creates an atmosphere where God's glory can come down and reside.
Never listen to the nay-sayers who believe it's their "duty" to cleanse the church from all the wrongs they mistakenly read into everything and everyone around them. Look at IHOP's teachings for yourself. I don't believe you'll find anything that contradicts scripture. It's blessed a lot of people and their ONE THING conferences are truly spirit-filled events that have changed the lives of loads of youth.
After reading this, it would be interesting to see based on who has attended IHOP/read Bickle's books, or heard him speak vs those who have not. And then compare it to those who have not. Who has been blessed by IHOP's ministry? I am betting on the people who have experienced the move of God through this ministry. Just my guess. Am I correct? Have any of the naysayers been to IHOP?
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/26/2007 10:01:10 PM
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sue244
Posts: 315
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
yasou,
You would do better to do your own research. Go to the IHOP site, read their literature and talk to people, like Adam, who attend.
IHOP is a wonderful place and you will get negative remarks that aren't true from the many people on this site who really have no understanding whatsoever of the supernatural or how God moves through and speaks to people. IHOP is definately NOT part of the latter rain movement and Mike Bickle definately says that he is not a prophet.
IHOP is a place whose focus is JESUS, period. I'm not sure how you think it's not the right focus. They believe in creating a place where worship and prayer ascend to God 24/7. It's an awesome thing and I believe truly creates an atmosphere where God's glory can come down and reside.
Never listen to the nay-sayers who believe it's their "duty" to cleanse the church from all the wrongs they mistakenly read into everything and everyone around them. Look at IHOP's teachings for yourself. I don't believe you'll find anything that contradicts scripture. It's blessed a lot of people and their ONE THING conferences are truly spirit-filled events that have changed the lives of loads of youth.
After reading this, it would be interesting to see based on who has attended IHOP/read Bickle's books, or heard him speak vs those who have not. And then compare it to those who have not. Who has been blessed by IHOP's ministry? I am betting on the people who have experienced the move of God through this ministry. Just my guess. Am I correct? Have any of the naysayers been to IHOP?
You know this argument never makes sense to me. Do I need to try drugs before I say that its a bad idea. Do I need to get a DUI before I can say that drinking and Driving is bad? Or can I just point to studies of what drugs can do to you, or how drinking can impare your judgment in driving? It seems like only with in the church do we have this idea that you have to try something and get burned before you can say that its bad, and then even if you have tried it yourself and got burned according to this argument no one else could take your word for getting burned, they have to try it themselves so that they can say its bad and so on and so on.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/26/2007 10:04:50 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1136
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
yasou,
You would do better to do your own research. Go to the IHOP site, read their literature and talk to people, like Adam, who attend.
IHOP is a wonderful place and you will get negative remarks that aren't true from the many people on this site who really have no understanding whatsoever of the supernatural or how God moves through and speaks to people. IHOP is definately NOT part of the latter rain movement and Mike Bickle definately says that he is not a prophet.
IHOP is a place whose focus is JESUS, period. I'm not sure how you think it's not the right focus. They believe in creating a place where worship and prayer ascend to God 24/7. It's an awesome thing and I believe truly creates an atmosphere where God's glory can come down and reside.
Never listen to the nay-sayers who believe it's their "duty" to cleanse the church from all the wrongs they mistakenly read into everything and everyone around them. Look at IHOP's teachings for yourself. I don't believe you'll find anything that contradicts scripture. It's blessed a lot of people and their ONE THING conferences are truly spirit-filled events that have changed the lives of loads of youth.
After reading this, it would be interesting to see based on who has attended IHOP/read Bickle's books, or heard him speak vs those who have not. And then compare it to those who have not. Who has been blessed by IHOP's ministry? I am betting on the people who have experienced the move of God through this ministry. Just my guess. Am I correct? Have any of the naysayers been to IHOP?
I dont have to have leprosy to know I dont want it. I dont have to spend time with homosexuals to know they are in sin. I dont have to get into a car wreck to know that seat belts save lives. Should i go on?
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/26/2007 10:41:49 PM
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Digrieze
Posts: 40
Joined: 8/26/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
After reading this, it would be interesting to see based on who has attended IHOP/read Bickle's books, or heard him speak vs those who have not. And then compare it to those who have not. Who has been blessed by IHOP's ministry? I am betting on the people who have experienced the move of God through this ministry. Just my guess. Am I correct? Have any of the naysayers been to IHOP?
I don't know if you'll call me a "naysayer" after this, but I doubt you'll consider me a "true believer" in IHOP either.
I spent about 11 years in a "Vineyard Association" church, beginning shortly after the incident that others have referred to as the "Kansas City Prophets" occured. However, I didn't become aware of it until shortly before the end of my association with the Vineyard (the AVC was VERY good about keeping such things quiet within their churches). Conferences at other churches were highly encouraged, and while I never made "the pilgramage to Toronto" (after hearing about the worshipers barking like dogs and slithering around like snakes it was not an accidental ommission), I did make it to Kansas City for a Vineyard Music Group conference while both Mike Bickle AND the church were still associated with the Vineyard. Later after Bickle left his church and started IHOP I attended a service there and later went back for a "training session" on "prophetic worship and music", an interest I had held onto since seminary hebrew class and translation practice on I Chronicles. The following observations are based on that experience (In addition to reading Bickle's books).
First, the worship was impressive in its' sincerity and simplicity. The musicians were refreshingly talented, something I find a rarety in a church world where mediocrity seems acceptable, and the worshipers were intent on worshiping God, not gossiping about their neighbors or balancing their checkbooks before the offering. Bickle's message was simple and direct and encouraged biblical principles. That was the good part.
Next, the not so good part. The worship songs were well done by the band, but rather vapid and empty of biblical truth ("Get On The Bus"? Oh, please!). The same criticism for the messages. The principles may have been biblical, but it would have been better to here more of the bible asociated with it, still, those were the "seeker friendly" years when everyone was enraptured with Willow Creek so "Bible-Lite" was disappointing, but not unexpected. Unfortunately when I returned for the "training", which would have been appropriate for Bible content, I found the same thing held. Heavy on experience, low-cal on the Bible content, not much meat at all. I was in the class with a pastor who had attended a Bible College, and we both noticed that they were quite willing to ignore biblical passages that gave them problems. I remember what the "worship leader" for the class said (because I wrote it down). He said "that was true for the biblical times, Jesus, and the apostles, but that's why God gave us the spirit of prophecy (note the small letters, my choice) to give us a better and more complete revelation of His will to go past what was written in the Bible." Incidently, I don't believe that, and neither did several others there that knew their Bible, but for those that didn't it was like feeding candy to the baby, they ate it until their teeth rotted.
It was my time there and at another Vineyard church that brought me to investigate the "latter rain" theology. I believe that was the basis of what was taught while I was there, and after reading up on John Wimbers' interactions with "the Kansas City Prophets", probably why he "asked them to leave" the Vineyard.
I believe that while I visited there many of the worshipers were sincerely reaching out for God. In that situation God does not refuse people, even if their leadership is faulty on their biblical teaching. On the other hand the lack of a biblical foundation is going to stunt that growth. The children may "feel good" on milk, but they'll never mature without meat from the Word.
I hope this puts some perspective on the "true believers" vs. "naysayers". The truth is somewhere in the middle (as always).
_____________________________
My hope, my wish, my prayer is that you find the life that Jesus created you to live and has hidden within Himself so in living that life you may have a uniquely intimate communion with Him. (Col.3:1-4)
Yours in the love of Jesus
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/26/2007 10:57:47 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1136
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: online
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quote:
He said "that was true for the biblical times, Jesus, and the apostles, but that's why God gave us the spirit of prophecy (note the small letters, my choice) to give us a better and more complete revelation of His will to go past what was written in the Bible."
I think you just hit one major nail on the head. This is a major point that many many churches of the charismatic/pentecostal flavor get wrong. Many (please note that I am not saying all) believe that prophecy today can bring us new revelation, beyond the bible, and that simply is not a biblical position to take. If IHOP as a whole still believes in this type of understanding for prophecy, then more so the reason to be very cautious about this group.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/27/2007 1:21:55 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3036
Joined: 6/8/2005
Status: offline
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Who/what arequote:
the infamous Kansas City Prophets
(By the way, I had all kinds of pictures dancing in my head, one being the food police ministering to people in those IHOP restaurants. Their ads always show such syrupy, sweet, fat-ladened foods that I think they should have such a food-police ministry that helps those people.)
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/27/2007 1:22:28 AM
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SD456
Posts: 1501
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
yasou,
You would do better to do your own research. Go to the IHOP site, read their literature and talk to people, like Adam, who attend.
IHOP is a wonderful place and you will get negative remarks that aren't true from the many people on this site who really have no understanding whatsoever of the supernatural or how God moves through and speaks to people. IHOP is definately NOT part of the latter rain movement and Mike Bickle definately says that he is not a prophet.
IHOP is a place whose focus is JESUS, period. I'm not sure how you think it's not the right focus. They believe in creating a place where worship and prayer ascend to God 24/7. It's an awesome thing and I believe truly creates an atmosphere where God's glory can come down and reside.
Never listen to the nay-sayers who believe it's their "duty" to cleanse the church from all the wrongs they mistakenly read into everything and everyone around them. Look at IHOP's teachings for yourself. I don't believe you'll find anything that contradicts scripture. It's blessed a lot of people and their ONE THING conferences are truly spirit-filled events that have changed the lives of loads of youth.
After reading this, it would be interesting to see based on who has attended IHOP/read Bickle's books, or heard him speak vs those who have not. And then compare it to those who have not. Who has been blessed by IHOP's ministry? I am betting on the people who have experienced the move of God through this ministry. Just my guess. Am I correct? Have any of the naysayers been to IHOP?
You know this argument never makes sense to me. Do I need to try drugs before I say that its a bad idea. Do I need to get a DUI before I can say that drinking and Driving is bad? Or can I just point to studies of what drugs can do to you, or how drinking can impare your judgment in driving? It seems like only with in the church do we have this idea that you have to try something and get burned before you can say that its bad, and then even if you have tried it yourself and got burned according to this argument no one else could take your word for getting burned, they have to try it themselves so that they can say its bad and so on and so on.
Hi Sue,
I think the difference between going to a Jesus-centered worship house like IHOP and doing drugs, is one is a sin and the other lifts up Jesus and glorifies Him. That's a big difference. Also the difference between those who have gone first hand to hear their teachings and go to their conferences and those who haven't ? One has first hand experience of what's happening there and the other has only gossip and wild accusations from questionable heretic-hunting websites that cast accusations against any who have experienced things in the Spirit that they never have. That's a huge difference in my opinion. We need to be very, very careful when listening to people who have the voice of the accuser of the brethren.
No one denomination or church is perfect. You can find just as many innaccuracies in a baptist church that leaves out the Power of God in their teachings as you will find in churches that teach the Power of God. Some have experienced IHOP and been under their teachings and felt that they grew tremendously and loved it, while others felt they didn't grow at all and eventually moved on. I think the answers are a mix and somewhere in the middle. But never are we to pass judgement on precious born-again believers who love Jesus simply because we READ somewhere that they are heretics without ever knowing that brother or speaking to him personally. Teaching bible LITE, so to speak, is not heretical or worthy of disowning a fellow brother. I don't believe that Mike Bickle teaches bible Lite stuff, though. Perhaps the experience of that previous poster was in a time when, as he stated, more churches were seeker sensitive. That isn't how it is now, though.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 11/27/2007 1:41:16 AM >
_____________________________
MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/27/2007 2:18:25 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1155
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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Seeing as how I try to remain level-headed... this is probably going to be a legnthy response....quote:
The fact that Mike Bickle identifies himself and others as Prophets qualifies to me as a big error. Mike does not identify himself as a Prophet. A teacher, yes... part of the end-times prayer movement, yes... A Prophet of any standing? Far from it. That is what we call a "misnomer"... I'm sure you are quite familiar with the term. Now, I might be willing to discuss the matter of the Office of a Prophet in a different thread, but I believe I take issue with your definition of the same.quote:
Just FYI but that Forerunner School is non-accredited. Meaning that for all practicality that the degree is worthless. Sorry if this steps on toes, but I can not see how anyone could be fooled into spending money for a Bachelors degree that currently no other institution outside of IHOP would recognize (ie no M.Div, no Lay Ministry in other denominations, ect). I read the website faqs on Forerunner HERE and frankly the mentality that Accreditation is a hindrance scares me That is a misuderstanding of the mentality of Forerunner. The twelve apostles were believed to be "uneducated" (Acts 2), so the idea of accreditation is mostly for the benefit of the unsaved. Myself, I can see great benefit to taking four years of my life to spend studying the Bible and praying... even if the piece of paper doesn't impress a deacon board. FSM is currently in process of becoming accredited (not sure where they are IN the process, but they are in it), but they are not seeking it as a primary focus of the school... because it is a manmade stamp of approval. What is much more important to the school's faculty is that the alumni come out prepared and equipped to run after God, and teach others to do the same... not necessarily to become pastor of a megachurch. It's that simple. Were the school designed to produce denominational pastors, then yes... it is quite scary that they aren't desperate for accreditation. However, the school is more focused of getting the students to love God more... how you get a rubber stamp of education on that, I don't know. There is so much more to being a human than having everyone think you are awesome... the end-times will teach us that much (I hope).quote:
No, IHOP is not WoF, but it is (despite Mr Bickle's denials) a Latter Rain church. Actually, we are not a church, but a prayer ministry. Oh, and for the heck of it, we are not associated with the Latter Rain movement... influenced by? Somewhat, but not a part of. Now, to be specific, latter rain is a Biblical Term... even though the movement had its quirks. For example, we do agree with the LR eschatology of post-trib rapture and pre-millenial return of Christ, but we do not in any way endorse the "Manifest Sons of God" schlock.quote:
How often do people like myself have to explain our FIRST HAND experience in these matters. I might well ask you the same question. I am a staff member at the International House of Prayer. I am here, witnessing the goings on around the missions base 7 days a week. From this standpoint, I have much more experience that is actually "FIRST HAND" (as you are so adamant in pointing out) than yourself about what IHOP is trully all about. Not to make a big deal out of whatever you feel you know (or that I feel I know for that matter), because pulling rank really doesn't impress anyone as much as we think it does.quote:
I suppose you would have been against people listening to Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and others who first tried to press the Catholic church to reform itself then, after they saw that it would not, separate from it to restore biblical truths and avoid errors. I will point out that Luther and Calvin did not want to seperate from the Catholic church, but to purify it. The problem being that many of the reformers and their followers were drummed out of the church (excommunicated being the proper term), so it looked like they seperated themselves, but they didn't actually.quote:
If you do any research whatsoever on Mike Bickle, you will find he is like the proverbial leopard who has never really changed his spots...he's still into a lot of the same things he was before he took all the heat over the Kansas City Prophets fiasco, he just calls it something else. Guilty until proven innocent..........? If you really don't believe that a man can do something good after being in something disgraced, how can you believe that men can be saved at all?quote:
After reading this, it would be interesting to see based on who has attended IHOP/read Bickle's books, or heard him speak vs those who have not. And then compare it to those who have not. Who has been blessed by IHOP's ministry? I am betting on the people who have experienced the move of God through this ministry. Just my guess. Am I correct? Have any of the naysayers been to IHOP? As noted earlier, I am a Fire in the Night internship alumnus and a staff member at the International House of Prayer. I have attended 4 of the 6 OneThing conferences, and read two of Mike's several books. From this, I know that the man doesn't travel much anymore because his main calling is to be in the prayer room (and I am witness to the man showing up in the prayer room at 6 AM no less than three days a week). I know that he preaches a brand of Eschatology that we have come to term "Apostolic Premillenialism"... I also know that he does extensive Bible study and intercession, and is teaching people to live the Sermon on the Mount lifestyle. If there is a problem with that, oh that I had such a problem.quote:
If IHOP as a whole still believes in this type of understanding for prophecy, then more so the reason to be very cautious about this group. To put that fear to rest, no, IHOP does not endorse this line of thinking. There is such a thing as getting revelation ON the Bible and WITHIN the Bible (ie, the Song of Solomon being an allegory of how God feels about the church, or connecting the ideas of God's love and God's jealousy being one and the same), but not in adding to it. The current Modus is that the there is new understanding of the Bible that comes from tagging one passage to another that we might not have thought of. This is the revealing of what is already in the Bible that we never noticed, and not adding to scripture (like the Apocrypha).quote:
I think the difference between going to a Jesus-centered worship house like IHOP and doing drugs, is one is a sin and the other lifts up Jesus and glorifies Him. **hears angels singing the Hallelujah Chorus** It is quite true, I have sat in several meetings in my time here, and I have heard much that directly contradicts people that argue against the merits of the House of Prayer. So really the difference is that I know what Mike actually says and doesn't say for myself, whereas someone who hasn't been here knows only what their friend or website told them. It's funny... we always trust people who seem to agree with us that they are reporting everything accurately and factually. It's to be expected on the one hand, but on the other, the true spirit of the Bereans was that they searched to find out if what they were being told was true. While I can appreciate the need to hold on to doctrines that we have been taught for a long time, if that doctrine turns out to be wrong, we have the potential to be devastated by holding on to it too tightly. I know beyond shadow or turning (today, anyways) that I am where I need to be for right now. Until God tells me otherwise, I am going to stay put right here.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/27/2007 8:49:51 AM
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floydette
Posts: 1107
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
yasou,
You would do better to do your own research. Go to the IHOP site, read their literature and talk to people, like Adam, who attend.
IHOP is a wonderful place and you will get negative remarks that aren't true from the many people on this site who really have no understanding whatsoever of the supernatural or how God moves through and speaks to people. IHOP is definately NOT part of the latter rain movement and Mike Bickle definately says that he is not a prophet.
IHOP is a place whose focus is JESUS, period. I'm not sure how you think it's not the right focus. They believe in creating a place where worship and prayer ascend to God 24/7. It's an awesome thing and I believe truly creates an atmosphere where God's glory can come down and reside.
Never listen to the nay-sayers who believe it's their "duty" to cleanse the church from all the wrongs they mistakenly read into everything and everyone around them. Look at IHOP's teachings for yourself. I don't believe you'll find anything that contradicts scripture. It's blessed a lot of people and their ONE THING conferences are truly spirit-filled events that have changed the lives of loads of youth.
After reading this, it would be interesting to see based on who has attended IHOP/read Bickle's books, or heard him speak vs those who have not. And then compare it to those who have not. Who has been blessed by IHOP's ministry? I am betting on the people who have experienced the move of God through this ministry. Just my guess. Am I correct? Have any of the naysayers been to IHOP?
It is an interesting path many of you choose to take by reading this post. I did not say that you must experience IHOP in order to "believe" or whatever you'd like to call it. I question the fact that many people talk out of no-experience. I know many people that are very blessed by the worship music that comes out of IHOP and they have never attended. Yet, the Spirit of God moves through that music.
I believe that if you had attended there, or experienced a portion of the ministry you would most likely have a different attitude from the one that stands at the side and looks from afar.
We have a local prayer ministry that is an offshoot of IHOP in a nearby town. It has been fabulous to watch and entire community of God develop in this area. Is it because of IHOP? No, not solely. However it is an important part of the preparation that God has done, and the transformation that has happened in this area. The idea of worshipping and praying before God constantly - what a great atmosphere for God's presence to be revealed.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/27/2007 10:02:06 AM
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sue244
Posts: 315
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
quote:
ORIGINAL: floydette
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
yasou,
You would do better to do your own research. Go to the IHOP site, read their literature and talk to people, like Adam, who attend.
IHOP is a wonderful place and you will get negative remarks that aren't true from the many people on this site who really have no understanding whatsoever of the supernatural or how God moves through and speaks to people. IHOP is definately NOT part of the latter rain movement and Mike Bickle definately says that he is not a prophet.
IHOP is a place whose focus is JESUS, period. I'm not sure how you think it's not the right focus. They believe in creating a place where worship and prayer ascend to God 24/7. It's an awesome thing and I believe truly creates an atmosphere where God's glory can come down and reside.
Never listen to the nay-sayers who believe it's their "duty" to cleanse the church from all the wrongs they mistakenly read into everything and everyone around them. Look at IHOP's teachings for yourself. I don't believe you'll find anything that contradicts scripture. It's blessed a lot of people and their ONE THING conferences are truly spirit-filled events that have changed the lives of loads of youth.
After reading this, it would be interesting to see based on who has attended IHOP/read Bickle's books, or heard him speak vs those who have not. And then compare it to those who have not. Who has been blessed by IHOP's ministry? I am betting on the people who have experienced the move of God through this ministry. Just my guess. Am I correct? Have any of the naysayers been to IHOP?
You know this argument never makes sense to me. Do I need to try drugs before I say that its a bad idea. Do I need to get a DUI before I can say that drinking and Driving is bad? Or can I just point to studies of what drugs can do to you, or how drinking can impare your judgment in driving? It seems like only with in the church do we have this idea that you have to try something and get burned before you can say that its bad, and then even if you have tried it yourself and got burned according to this argument no one else could take your word for getting burned, they have to try it themselves so that they can say its bad and so on and so on.
Hi Sue,
I think the difference between going to a Jesus-centered worship house like IHOP and doing drugs, is one is a sin and the other lifts up Jesus and glorifies Him. That's a big difference. Also the difference between those who have gone first hand to hear their teachings and go to their conferences and those who haven't ? One has first hand experience of what's happening there and the other has only gossip and wild accusations from questionable heretic-hunting websites that cast accusations against any who have experienced things in the Spirit that they never have. That's a huge difference in my opinion. We need to be very, very careful when listening to people who have the voice of the accuser of the brethren.
No one denomination or church is perfect. You can find just as many innaccuracies in a baptist church that leaves out the Power of God in their teachings as you will find in churches that teach the Power of God. Some have experienced IHOP and been under their teachings and felt that they grew tremendously and loved it, while others felt they didn't grow at all and eventually moved on. I think the answers are a mix and somewhere in the middle. But never are we to pass judgement on precious born-again believers who love Jesus simply because we READ somewhere that they are heretics without ever knowing that brother or speaking to him personally. Teaching bible LITE, so to speak, is not heretical or worthy of disowning a fellow brother. I don't believe that Mike Bickle teaches bible Lite stuff, though. Perhaps the experience of that previous poster was in a time when, as he stated, more churches were seeker sensitive. That isn't how it is now, though.
SD I mean this with all respect, but by your very defenition you have a voice of the accuser of the brethren. You are saying in my understanding that those who try to be like the breanens and test what is being taught against the scripture, are heresy hunters. So you are codeming them for judging when that is what you are doing to them.
Now I have not come to a solid conclusion yet on this based on study but I have a guess as to where I will land based on what other people in here I respect are saying.
Don't always asume that people who condem these things have no 'experience' with the Holy Spirit or with anything of the chrasmatic vain. I went to a very chrasmatic 'Christian' school for 6 years. I know all about those things first hand, yet I draw my conclusion on them not on experience, but on scripture. Personally for me experience holds no weight for me since it is so subjective.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/27/2007 10:55:33 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1487
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Mike does not identify himself as a Prophet. A teacher, yes... part of the end-times prayer movement, yes... A Prophet of any standing? Far from it.
"...After the death of Branham in the early fifties and the demise of the Latter Rain movement, Cain apparently went into self-imposed exile for years. In recent years he reappeared, linking himself to the Kansas City prophets with Mike Bickle and Bob Jones as the leading resident prophets. Among these self-designated prophets, Cain was given a special place of recognition because of his nearly always-accurate clairvoyant ability to see things that no one else could."
quote:
...but we do not in any way endorse the "Manifest Sons of God"
Defnition of MSOG:
- "IMMORTALIZATION" (a state of perfection or sinlessness)
- "RESTORATION" of the offices of "APOSTLES AND PROPHETS," who are not to be questioned in any way.
- Absolute Authoritarianism - It is imperative that the people do not judge teachers, regardless of doctrine.
- "MANIFEST SONS OF GOD" - Attainment of "godhood."
- Sonship comes through "HIGHER REVELATION"
- Extreme fear and guilt for those who do not move forward to perfection in order that the Kingdom of God be established.
Compare that to what Mike Bickle and others teach:
"...Paul Cain, Mike Bickle, Rick Joyner, and Bob Jones have taught the Latter Rain teaching of the "Manifest Sons of God." This teaching simply affirms that in the last days:
- a "new breed" of believers would attain to immortality and conquer the last enemy of death.
- Latter-Rain prophets look forward to the appearance of an end-time glorification of a remnant church which will become perfected and thus qualify for immortality here upon the earth prior to Christ's return. In fact, they believe, prior to the Lord's physical return, Jesus comes again spiritually and invisibly to a corporate body of believers. God's glory re-inhabits His temple, referring to the endtime new breed of believers.
- The prophetic movement teachers identify this great endtime company as the "Manchild" of Revelation 12, which will rule and reign the nations with a rod of iron.
- This indestructible and immortal company become impregnated with the presence of the "Christ" and they will put all things under their feet."
< Message edited by Soxfan -- 11/27/2007 11:11:06 AM >
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/27/2007 11:02:49 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3036
Joined: 6/8/2005
Status: offline
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Wow, Sox. That's some scary stuff. It sounds a little like some of the stuff some of the leaders in my old church thought of themselves. The regular people often just smiled at that.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
A tree's fruit is obvious; you have to look harder for the worm hole.
G-d has only one natural Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/27/2007 11:50:40 AM
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floydette
Posts: 1107
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Mike does not identify himself as a Prophet. A teacher, yes... part of the end-times prayer movement, yes... A Prophet of any standing? Far from it.
"...After the death of Branham in the early fifties and the demise of the Latter Rain movement, Cain apparently went into self-imposed exile for years. In recent years he reappeared, linking himself to the Kansas City prophets with Mike Bickle and Bob Jones as the leading resident prophets. Among these self-designated prophets, Cain was given a special place of recognition because of his nearly always-accurate clairvoyant ability to see things that no one else could."
quote:
...but we do not in any way endorse the "Manifest Sons of God"
Defnition of MSOG:
- "IMMORTALIZATION" (a state of perfection or sinlessness)
- "RESTORATION" of the offices of "APOSTLES AND PROPHETS," who are not to be questioned in any way.
- Absolute Authoritarianism - It is imperative that the people do not judge teachers, regardless of doctrine.
- "MANIFEST SONS OF GOD" - Attainment of "godhood."
- Sonship comes through "HIGHER REVELATION"
- Extreme fear and guilt for those who do not move forward to perfection in order that the Kingdom of God be established.
Compare that to what Mike Bickle and others teach:
"...Paul Cain, Mike Bickle, Rick Joyner, and Bob Jones have taught the Latter Rain teaching of the "Manifest Sons of God." This teaching simply affirms that in the last days:
- a "new breed" of believers would attain to immortality and conquer the last enemy of death.
- Latter-Rain prophets look forward to the appearance of an end-time glorification of a remnant church which will become perfected and thus qualify for immortality here upon the earth prior to Christ's return. In fact, they believe, prior to the Lord's physical return, Jesus comes again spiritually and invisibly to a corporate body of believers. God's glory re-inhabits His temple, referring to the endtime new breed of believers.
- The prophetic movement teachers identify this great endtime company as the "Manchild" of Revelation 12, which will rule and reign the nations with a rod of iron.
- This indestructible and immortal company become impregnated with the presence of the "Christ" and they will put all things under their feet."
Could you include your citations? Recent ones would be great. Thanks.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/27/2007 12:12:09 PM
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yasou_ray
Posts: 13
Joined: 11/24/2007
Status: offline
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Thanks Sox for your most recent post.
Thank you to everyone for your replies.
This is scary stuff. Everything I have read so far seems to be quite the mix of religions, from Jehovah's Witness to Unitarianism. The teachings seem to be obsessed with the end times, mostly the millennial reign.
Here is some of what I have found so far:
There was one speaker who was bragging that they were “teaching 6 y/o children how to have the gift of Prophesy.” (YOU CANNOT TEACH A GIFT.)
Mike Bickle teaches that the Kingdom is already here. (Jehovah’s Witness. I have yet to see mention of a literal Heaven. It’s all about the 1000 year reign here on earth.)
At Jesus’s return, He will NOT appear across the earth simultaneously. Instead, His return will be a global procession that will take time. (Apparently He is not omnipresent?)
God will not release His authority without their night and day prayer room. (So basically, it’s up to them. They hold all the power. This is the purpose of the 24/7 prayer room.)
They believe Jesus is God incarnated. But, they also believe God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are 3 separate entities. (Isn’t this a contradiction? Reincarnation happens after death.)
My research does seem to back up what Sox posted, very humanistic stuff.
They do seem to be targeting the young people. It does seem to be nothing short of intellectual brain-washing.
I beg of all of you who support this organization, measure what they are teaching against what the BIBLE teaches, not what we on here say or ANYONE else! Pray for discernment! Get a good concordance and use it.
I do not want to argue or debate with anyone. Please, Search for the Truth.
My research does continue, my 20 y/o son wants to go to KC and do their internship. Yes, it is personal. Pray for my research, for me and for my son. I will be spreading the word. We need to unveil this cult.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/27/2007 12:53:25 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3241
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
Never listen to the nay-sayers who believe it's their "duty" to cleanse the church from all the wrongs they mistakenly read into everything and everyone around them.
And never, ever listen to those who don't follow the Scriptures concerning this sort of thing:
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. -I John 4
quote:
IHOP is definately NOT part of the latter rain movement and Mike Bickle definately says that he is not a prophet.
If you do any research whatsoever on Mike Bickle, you will find he is like the proverbial leopard who has never really changed his spots...he's still into a lot of the same things he was before he took all the heat over the Kansas City Prophets fiasco, he just calls it something else.
I've done better than that. I've read his books, I've been to his conferences and I've actually listened to him first hand. Unlike others who tend to only listen to gossip and who use scripture wrongfully, thinking that they are being good bereans. Yes, test the spirits - which is exactly what we need to do when we hear the "castigating accuser of the brethren spirit" that comes out of many who are on these forums. Definately test the spirits.
SD, I just connected some dots and now have a better understanding of the basis of your beliefs and where you are coming from. I saw your post in another thread where you revealed the church you are affiliated with. I googled it and what I found was very enlightening:
Your church description is..."a company of dreamers, pursuing the dream of His Kingdom and will, on earth as it is in heaven. We are a community of believers on a journey discovering the heart of God for His Church; a gathering of friends that have decided that Worship is our priority and Living in Community is our privilege. We are a people called to transform the culture around us, not reflect it; destined to determine its history, not display it."
I also see that your leader calls himself a Prophet and "has written several books, Approaching the Heart of Prophecy, Prophecy and Responsibility, A Divine Confrontation... Birth Pangs of the New Church and Developing Your Prophetic Gifting, and eight interactive journals, Beholding and Becoming, Towards a Powerful Inner Life, The Language of Promise, The Nature of God, Hiddenness and Manifestation, Crafted Prayer, God's Keeping Power, and Living in Dependency and Wonder."
Then I clicked on the Links to the "Friends" of your church and listed there between other self proclaimed prophets and Toronto Blessing proponents was Bob Jones:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
...After the death of Branham in the early fifties and the demise of the Latter Rain movement, Cain apparently went into self-imposed exile for years. In recent years he reappeared, linking himself to the Kansas City prophets with Mike Bickle and Bob Jones as the leading resident prophets. Among these self-designated prophets, Cain was given a special place of recognition because of his nearly always-accurate clairvoyant ability to see things that no one else could."
As I said, this gives me greater insight into where you are coming from, SD. Thanks for sharing this information.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 11/27/2007 1:07:02 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1157
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
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Hi yasou_ray:
First off... WELCOME TO THE FORUM! Your discernment is greatly appreciated and we need many more like you.
Something that might be helpful to you is to read up on the source of this mess, which is the Latter Rain movement [also called 'Kingdom Theology' and 'Dominionism']. Soxfan gave a great overview of the MSOG, and if you'd like to understand where it came from, I highly recommend starting HERE with a series of in-depth articles called 'The Doctrine of Demons', part | | |
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