RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (Full Version)

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martyfran -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/9/2007 3:11:29 PM)

quote:

Well, considering that RC's believe the Pope is infallible, what would there be to forgive?


Actually, to say that the pope is infallible does not mean that the pope is without sin. To say that the pope is without sin, would be to say that he is impeccable.



Lurker -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/9/2007 11:12:39 PM)

And this is news how?

Indulgences haven't ever gone away, nor should they. There have been abuses however and those should be addressed and ended. Now, with that said, here's a brief primer on indulgences
Here's a nice article from a Catholic POV that answers myths and misunderstandings of what an indulgence is and more specifically, what it is not.
Want to know some other ways to get an indulgence? Try this article.
One interesting one that may surprise many here is this one, "A partial indulgence is granted the Christian faithful who read sacred Scripture with the veneration due God's word and as a form of spiritual reading. The indulgence will be a plenary one when such reading is done for at least one-half hour."
The relevant sections from the Catechism on indulgences can be found here.

Rather than simply argue based on misunderstandings of the concept, perhaps it might be a tad more fruitful to discuss what the Church actually teaches, rather than what some people want to believe it teaches.



Odeliya -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/10/2007 12:09:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:

Well, considering that RC's believe the Pope is infallible, what would there be to forgive?

Actually, to say that the pope is infallible does not mean that the pope is without sin. To say that the pope is without sin, would be to say that he is impeccable.


We are not saying Pope can guess lottery numbers, predict the World Cup winners and manufacture enough will power to refuse the 3rd piece of pie.
He sins, and not all he says is perfect.

But CC claims that Pope's doctrine is always right and that is what we are debating.
Lurker, appreciate the links and already studied them and my honest opinion that the idea is unbiblical. That is why i jokingly suggested to organize a local, American "Lourdes" of sorts.
It should not be difficult. [;)] But will be just as profitable [:D]



martyfran -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/10/2007 7:35:29 AM)

quote:

We are not saying Pope can guess lottery numbers, predict the World Cup winners and manufacture enough will power to refuse the 3rd piece of pie.
He sins, and not all he says is perfect.


The poster made a comment about needing forgiveness, only sinners need forgiveness. So the poster had no clue about what inallibilty meant.



earthless -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/10/2007 10:57:58 AM)

Lurker,

No, thanks. I will stick to the Bible for what is true.



Soxfan -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/10/2007 11:46:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lurker
Rather than simply argue based on misunderstandings of the concept, perhaps it might be a tad more fruitful to discuss what the Church actually teaches, rather than what some people want to believe it teaches.


As earthless has noted, I would rather discuss what the BIBLE actually teaches. And I can say with confidence that paying bribes to buy your way to Heaven is not in the Bible. If I recall, belief in Jesus Christ as your savior takes care of that. And last I checked, salvation was FREE.

Wonder if the vatican is getting a "cut" from Priceline or Expedia. [;)]



Odeliya -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/10/2007 4:39:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: martyfran
The poster made a comment about needing forgiveness, only sinners need forgiveness. So the poster had no clue about what inallibilty meant.


I dont think Kat D was clueless about the issue at all; rather think that she was sarcastic.

Indulgences is a doctrine, it is related to salvatoin. So if Pope is infallible (alw. presents the right doctrine) he shouldn't be pedaling the idea that by doing some travelling to Lourdes we cut our purgatory time.

I agree with Earthless and Soxfan,
what we believe is that Jesus paid for all sins; we enter heaven with His righteousness, not ours, so whole concept of Purg. and Indulg. is contrary to the Bible.
I am willing to consider otherwise. But the argment has to be something better then demagoguery from NewAdvent.



Kat_D -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/10/2007 5:45:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: martyfran

quote:

We are not saying Pope can guess lottery numbers, predict the World Cup winners and manufacture enough will power to refuse the 3rd piece of pie.
He sins, and not all he says is perfect.


The poster made a comment about needing forgiveness, only sinners need forgiveness. So the poster had no clue about what inallibilty meant.

The "poster" knew exactly what it means (being an ex-Catholic) and started to post in response; thought better of it because "she" knew it was a hopeless cause, so "she" deleted "her" post![:D]



lw9 -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/10/2007 5:49:32 PM)

quote:

Lurker: Rather than simply argue based on misunderstandings of the concept, perhaps it might be a tad more fruitful to discuss what the Church actually teaches, rather than what some people want to believe it teaches.


That is the fallback position I see RCC defenders hiding behind every time someone questions Roman Catholic doctrine. Yes, I have studied the doctrine in depth and compared it with the Bible. Yes, I understand what they are teaching. The RCC has posted it's beliefs clearly, complete with detailed explanations for all to see, and continues to uphold those beliefs. So, unless the RCC is actually lying about their beliefs in their own teachings, then I will take them at their word.

So, no... my disagreement with RCC doctrine is not a misunderstanding.



tony.nz -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/10/2007 6:10:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

I have been a little perplexed at the reasoning behind the announcement; possibly the Pope's cousin has a Snow Cone stand near shrine at Lourdes.

Thanks
RC


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Must pay for all those damages claims somehow. I am sure they own more of Lourdes than a Snow Cone stand.

BTW, speaking of scams. I read an excellent response, from one person to a "ministry" who wrote to her, saying that God had ordered him to build a $10million dollar sanctuary, and suggesting that if she donated $1000, she would receive a "100 fold" return.

Apparently she wrote back, suggesting therefore that if he sent her a check for $10,000, then he would get his $10 million. Apparently quickly got her off the mailing list. I thought that was worth sharing.



martyfran -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/10/2007 6:42:23 PM)

quote:

Funny,... ONLY Jesus forgives sin.

Yet, the RCC has the audacity to claim they do.


Yeah, the church has the audacity to read scripture and interpret it. Read John 20:22.



earthless -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/10/2007 6:43:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: martyfran

quote:

Funny,... ONLY Jesus forgives sin.

Yet, the RCC has the audacity to claim they do.


Yeah, the church has the audacity to read scripture and interpret it. Read John 20:22.

quote:

John 20:22


22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

What does that have to do with indulgences? With making merchandise of men?

It must also be stated that there is not a single scriptural example of, or teaching about, an apostle or church leader doling out an “indulgence” to a fellow believer.

Not one!

From its foundation to its summit the whole structure of the doctrine of indulgences is unfounded biblically.



Lurker -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/10/2007 6:46:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

Lurker,

No, thanks. I will stick to the Bible for what is true.


Me too. In fact it was because I read the bible coupled with prayer that I decided to become Catholic. :) I'll say it again here, I have never found another church denomination more in love with Christ and the scripture than Catholicism. :D.



earthless -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/10/2007 6:58:35 PM)

I laughed out loud, seriously.



lw9 -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/10/2007 7:10:03 PM)

quote:

Lurker: I'll say it again here, I have never found another church denomination more in love with Christ and the scripture than Catholicism.


You are only kidding yourself with that comment. If the RCC loved Christ and His word, they would have kept His word rather than contradict it at every turn. If the RCC loved Christ, they would lead people to Christ instead of away from Him and into vain works. If the RCC loved Christ, they would not deny His full atonement of sins on the cross. But instead... it's a trip to Lourdes for the Roman Catholic to reduce their time in purgatory.



earthless -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/10/2007 7:15:11 PM)

lw9,

And the real kicker here - if we're all honest with each other and ourselves - nothing in Scripture backs the act or concept of indulgences. Nothing. So for someone to make such a statement in a thread of thinking adults is sheer absurdity.



Lurker -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/10/2007 10:20:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lw9

quote:

Lurker: I'll say it again here, I have never found another church denomination more in love with Christ and the scripture than Catholicism.


You are only kidding yourself with that comment. If the RCC loved Christ and His word, they would have kept His word rather than contradict it at every turn. If the RCC loved Christ, they would lead people to Christ instead of away from Him and into vain works. If the RCC loved Christ, they would not deny His full atonement of sins on the cross. But instead... it's a trip to Lourdes for the Roman Catholic to reduce their time in purgatory.


I've yet to find any credible instance of the Catholic Church contradicting Christ's word. Trust me, I've tried. I started out trying to "save" some Catholic friends of mine from "Romanism." In the end, they helped save me from hubris and helped me grow closer to Jesus. :)

Every liturgy I attend, be it the Roman rite Mass or the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is filled with scripture. Almost all the chants, the readings, the responses are scriptural. The scripture is read to the people who give thanks to the Lord for it at every service. Every Sunday I hear the words, "Wisdom! Be attentive!" called out before a reading of the Gospels. In examining the history of the Church, I find sinners indeed, but I also find countless saints who's devotion to the Lord are so inspirational I want to weep from joy. Reading the scriptures fills me with true joy. And I find it a wonderous testament to His love for us that to this day, the Church He established so long ago is still here, despite our sinful natures' attempts to despoil it. :)



Lurker -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/10/2007 10:31:59 PM)

So it seems to me that many of the claims are that the Church doesn't have the authority to issue indulgences. Perhaps then this thread should be reworked into a pre-existing thread on Church authority? If there is a thread that is....

For me, I trust in the words of Our Lord when He told Peter, "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 16:19) In Catholic teaching, we hold the Popes to be the successors to Peter and consequently, as Peter's successors they also have the authority to bind and loose in Jesus' name. Now, if one wanted to argue about the role of the Pope and whether or not they are indeed the successors to Peter, I'd think that we'd best head to the "Why do we need a Pope?" thread in the Christian Doctrine forum.

It can be seen then that the concepts of indulgences would be an example of Peter's successor exercising their authority to bind and loose. So if one doesn't accept the idea of a Pope having authority, then naturally one would not accept indulgences. But if one does feel that there's sufficient scriptural evidence behind the concept of the Papacy, then the idea behind indulgences makes scriptural sense. :)



brillstreet -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/11/2007 9:56:41 AM)

Why, with all the good the Pope and the Catholic Church do in the world is this the story that finds its way onto the site? Is it because it fits into a stereptype of what the Church is about ?

The Pope has worked with world leaders to try to address war and poverty, genocide and indifference to suffering acorss the globe. The Church directs billions of dollars in charitable work from feeding the hungry to helping decrease infant mortality, building housing ans schools for the poor, etc., etc. And the most relevant story that makes the site is one about indulgences. I think we're missing the forest for the trees here.



lw9 -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/11/2007 10:33:44 AM)

quote:

brillstreet: Why, with all the good the Pope and the Catholic Church do in the world is this the story that finds its way onto the site? Is it because it fits into a stereptype of what the Church is about ?


Are you suggesting that we should overlook and ignore aberrant doctrine within a church because they do good works? Any organization can do good works, and many in fact do - Christian and non-Christian alike - so what does that have to do with anything?

Outward appearances of good works does nothing to justify or change the inner corruption of the RCC.



stephanos -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/11/2007 11:23:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lw9

quote:

brillstreet: Why, with all the good the Pope and the Catholic Church do in the world is this the story that finds its way onto the site? Is it because it fits into a stereptype of what the Church is about ?


Are you suggesting that we should overlook and ignore aberrant doctrine within a church because they do good works? Any organization can do good works, and many in fact do - Christian and non-Christian alike - so what does that have to do with anything?

Outward appearances of good works does nothing to justify or change the inner corruption of the RCC.


Corruption is in EVERY Christian denomination. It is a result of sin. No Christian denomination is perfect and ALL have flaws INCLUDING corruption in the leadership and structure of their leadership.

Unless you who attack the RCC are willing to use the SAME language towards the SBC, PCUSA, United Methodists, Assemblies of God, Church of Christ, Baptist General Conference, Anglican/Episcopal, Lutheran and every other denomination here in America and across the world; I suggest you shut your mouth in terms of salvation or the need to be "born again". Do we have disagreements about doctrine? Yes! But the bible is quite clear. The ONLY requirement for salvation is a belief in Christ Jesus as God in the flesh who came to this earth to be a living sacrifice for our sins, and that He rose from the grave, defeating death and sin for those who believe in Him. NO WHERE in the bible does it say you have to believe in a particular denomination, or believe in particular secondary doctrines.

This is one of the BIGGEST problems I have with the Protestant church. Many look at the faults of the RCC, but refuse to look in their OWN church. You claim corruption elsewhere, but what in HIS name are you doing about the corruption in YOUR OWN CHURCH!



JesKlu -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/11/2007 11:30:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lw9

quote:

Lurker: I'll say it again here, I have never found another church denomination more in love with Christ and the scripture than Catholicism.


You are only kidding yourself with that comment. If the RCC loved Christ and His word, they would have kept His word rather than contradict it at every turn. If the RCC loved Christ, they would lead people to Christ instead of away from Him and into vain works. If the RCC loved Christ, they would not deny His full atonement of sins on the cross. But instead... it's a trip to Lourdes for the Roman Catholic to reduce their time in purgatory.



Amen, I agree to that. The Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory is pretty much saying that Jesus' death on the cross wasn't good enough. Why else would they say go to Lourdes to reduce your time in purgatory.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



lw9 -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/11/2007 12:17:15 PM)

Stephanos:

quote:

Unless you who attack the RCC are willing to use the SAME language towards the SBC, PCUSA, United Methodists, Assemblies of God, Church of Christ, Baptist General Conference, Anglican/Episcopal, Lutheran and every other denomination here in America and across the world; I suggest you shut your mouth in terms of salvation or the need to be "born again".


You've apparently missed many of my 1196 posts, because I've never shied away from examining ANY church scripturally and discussing valid errors, including the church I attend. I have publically stated my disagreements with a few of their teachings. My faith is in Christ, not the local church, therefore if someone brings a valid scriptural criticism against a church, I am more than willing to discuss and accept it if it's true.

I can't speak for every one of those denominations you mentioned - and I don't think this is the thread to discuss our issues with other denominations - but I know that many of them [perhapse even all] affirm Christ's full atonement on the cross, affirm salvation in Christ alone, affirm Christ as our sole intercessor, do not point people into works salvation, and affirm sola scriptura. We're not talking about minor differences in beliefs. We are talking about the major core beliefs of the Christian faith, and therefore we are talking about LIFE AND DEATH.

If you are offended by what's been said about the RCC, then perhaps you need to take a deeper look into the doctrinal issues we are bringing up, because all we're pointing out is the truth.

quote:

This is one of the BIGGEST problems I have with the Protestant church. Many look at the faults of the RCC, but refuse to look in their OWN church. You claim corruption elsewhere, but what in HIS name are you doing about the corruption in YOUR OWN CHURCH!


You are perfectly free to start as many threads as you want to discuss any issues you might have with protestant churches, you know? I certainly don't have a problem with that. Bringing things out into the light and examining/discussing through scripture is always a good thing.

I've never, ever said that any church is without error. BUT if a church adheres to the core Christian beliefs, preaches the Biblical gospel message, and keeps sound doctrine and practices, then they are leading people to Jesus Christ. Any additions, changes, or perversions to that gospel message will lead people astray and away from salvation, and unfortunately, the RCC has proven through it's own doctrine and practices that it is leading people astray.



Ezra -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/11/2007 3:15:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Acts29

I have tried to connect the two together but I can't make the connection.

What does Lourdes have to do with purgatory? I don't get it. BTW How many indulgences does the Roman Catholic Chruch have?

I personally do not believe in purgatory. But I have family members who are Roman Catholic. I do understand their concept of purgatory. But this does not make any sense to me.


The connection is very simple. If your salvation is based upon your own good works + various sacraments + whatever you wish to add ( regardless of what Christ accomplished) then a pligrimage to Lourdes is at the top of the list.

Any evangelical Christian who thinks that Rome has changed should take another good hard look at this religion.



Odeliya -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/11/2007 4:55:30 PM)

What we have so far -we, anti-indulgences people claimed that Ind. are unscriptural.
We asked our highly respected Catholic camp to help, they came with possible replies:

Brillstreet : Popes and CC go a lot of good for humanity.
Stephanos : Look at yourself! Protestant churches stink on many levels.
Lurker : If one accept Pope's authority then he would accept indulgences.

I agree wholeheartedly with all three of you!
However all these 3 opinions give zilch Scriptural explanation why In. are needed.
Neither 1)bad protestants, 2) CC's good deeds, no 3) Pope Binding and Loosing is a remote proof of it.
Actually the last one sounds like a name for a B movie, if anything [sm=icon_smile_blush.gif]

Pope has no right to bind or loose anyone's salvation...



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