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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/11/2007 4:57:26 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Bringing things out into the light and examining/discussing through scripture is always a good thing.
Oh.
Words of wisdom!
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/11/2007 5:23:10 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
Pope has no right to bind or loose anyone's salvation...
Actually, purgatory has nothing to do with whether or not one is saved.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/11/2007 5:40:44 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
Pope has no right to bind or loose anyone's salvation...
Actually, purgatory has nothing to do with whether or not one is saved.
But it sure does have a lot to do with what does not exist.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/11/2007 6:05:55 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
But it sure does have a lot to do with what does not exist.
Of course, purgatory's existence is not dependent upon your opinion.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/11/2007 6:12:03 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
But it sure does have a lot to do with what does not exist.
Of course, purgatory's existence is not dependent upon your opinion.
You're absolutely right, it is not. It is dependent on truth and if we claim to be Christians, our litmus test for truth, for absolutes, is the Bible.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/11/2007 6:28:48 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
But it sure does have a lot to do with what does not exist.
Of course, purgatory's existence is not dependent upon your opinion.
You're absolutely right, it is not. It is dependent on truth and if we claim to be Christians, our litmus test for truth, for absolutes, is the Bible.
Actually, the bible does not claim that it is the sole rule of faith. Also, the bible tells us nothing about what books belong in the bible. My bible is different that yours and there is nothing in the bible that will tells us which one of us is right.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/11/2007 6:30:28 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
But it sure does have a lot to do with what does not exist.
Of course, purgatory's existence is not dependent upon your opinion.
You're absolutely right, it is not. It is dependent on truth and if we claim to be Christians, our litmus test for truth, for absolutes, is the Bible.
Actually, the bible does not claim that it is the sole rule of faith. Also, the bible tells us nothing about what books belong in the bible. My bible is different that yours and there is nothing in the bible that will tells us which one of us is right.
So then you accept the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price? Gospel of Thomas, etc etc? And if I write a book tomorrow and claim it is Word of God, you will accept that too?
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/11/2007 6:35:25 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
So then you accept the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price? Gospel of Thomas, etc etc? And if I write a book tomorrow and claim it is Word of God, you will accept that too?
No, I didn't say that I would accept anything. I have a Church and the Church has authority. Jesus gave Peter the power to bind and loose. So when my church says what the bible is, it has the authority to do so. When you claim that the book you read is the bible, you are basing it on your opinion and nothing else. Either that, or you are using what has been traditionally accepted as scripture by protestants. If I am wrong, please cite me the verse that lists the books of the bible.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/11/2007 6:49:05 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
So then you accept the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price? Gospel of Thomas, etc etc? And if I write a book tomorrow and claim it is Word of God, you will accept that too?
No, I didn't say that I would accept anything. I have a Church and the Church has authority. Jesus gave Peter the power to bind and loose. So when my church says what the bible is, it has the authority to do so. When you claim that the book you read is the bible, you are basing it on your opinion and nothing else. Either that, or you are using what has been traditionally accepted as scripture by protestants. If I am wrong, please cite me the verse that lists the books of the bible.
How could I do that when you take a Scripture and want to apply it to an organization (the RCC) that did not come into existence till several centuries after said Scripture.
Peter was not the first pope. But both you and I have gone too far already - as there already is an established one stop thread for Catholicism and its discussion.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/11/2007 6:56:44 PM
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earthless
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Another thing.. what really irks me about the entire concept of purgatory is that the RCC/Catholicism teaches that believers incur debts that must inevitably be discharged in Purgatory "before the gates of heaven can be opened." While Purgatory is not equivalent to a second chance for unbelievers, it is nonetheless decidely unbiblical.
First, the doctrine of Purgatory undermines the sufficiency of Jesus Christ's atonement on the cross. Scripture declares that Christ through "one sacrifice . . . had made perfect forever those who are being made holy" (Hebrews 10:14; Hebrews 1:3).
Thus, we can rest assured that Jesus received in His own body all the punishment we deserved, absolutely satisfying the justice of God on our behalf (Romans 3:25-26; 2 Corinthians 5:19, 21; 1 Peter 3:18; 1 John 2:2). When Jesus cried out from the cross, "It is finished!" (John 19:30) He was in effect saying, "The debt has been paid in full."
Futhermore, Roman Catholicism clearly undermines the seriousness of sin by forwarding the notion that there are venial sins that can be atoned for through temporal punishment in Purgatory.
In reality, as the Bible makes clear, all our transgressions and iniquities are sins against a holy eternal God (Psalm 51:4). And as such, they rightly incur an eternal rather than a temporal debt (Ezekiel 18:4; Matthew 5-7; Romans 6:23; James 2:10).
Finally, while Purgatory was officially defined by the Council of Florence (1439) and officially defended by the Council of Trent in the late 16th century, nowhere is Purgatory officially depicted in the canon of Scripture.
As The New Catholic Encyclopedia readily acknowledges, "the doctrine of Purgatory is not explicitly stated in the Bible."
Thus, Catholicism is forced to appeal to the traditions of the fathers rather than the testimony of the Father - who through His Word has graciously provided salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, on account of Jesus Christ alone (Romans 4:2-8; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8-9).
All of this (and more) is akin to the child that receives the most amazing gift at Christmas and yet is not satisfied with it, finds it lacking, and invents cardboard boxes full of empty promises to fill holes in their life that they have invented.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/11/2007 7:50:32 PM
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kmangel
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Getting back to the question, how does going to Lourdes provide any benefit spiritually? Isn't faith in Christ what is required? Where does a trip to Lourdes equal faith in Christ? It may inspire a person, yes, but affect a person in a spiritual way? And if it can benefit a person spiritually, why limit the time to visit Lourdes? What is there now that won't be there later and wasn't there, say last month or years ago? What is different about Lourdes now?
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/11/2007 8:06:35 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kmangel
What is different about Lourdes now?
This: http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/7966/popehx9.jpg
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/11/2007 8:10:04 PM
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Stephanos
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Wow...I defend the RCC and I automatically am labeled as a member of the RCC. Typical of the bias protestant hate for the RCC that sickens me. Does it shock you people that I, a 5-point Calvinist, would stand by and defend someone with wholly different theological views than mine. Does it shock you that a member of a SBC church preparing to go to a SBC seminary would speak up to defend ungodly attacks on my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ?
I fully agree that indulgences are wrong. Indulgences were one of the primary griefs that the great reformer Martin Luther had against the RCC. But could it be possible that we can condemn the theology with out condemning the believer. Is that not what Christ Jesus would do? Do you really think that Jesus is sitting in heaven saying "Well you believe me to be your savior, BUT you also believe this so you are going to hell!" If you believe that, then it is YOU my friends who are in the most error here. The RCC has many many beliefs that I would fight against. But ANY member of that church who says that Christ Jesus, God in the flesh, died on the cross for the remission of our sins so that we may approach the glory of God; THEY I will call my friends and brothers and sisters in Christ. I KNOW I will see Mother Theresa and Pope John Paul II worshiping our Creator in Heaven when my time comes. Them and millions of other faithful catholics.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/11/2007 8:16:49 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
I KNOW I will see Mother Theresa and Pope John Paul II worshiping our Creator in Heaven when my time comes. Them and millions of other faithful catholics.
Umm.... if good works makes anyone a Christian, then we must also regard a friend of mine, a communist and an atheist, to be a true Christian as well, for he, though unknown to the media, has dedicated his life to help the poor.
Yet he would be the first to refuse the name 'Christian.'
Works alone do not make anyone a Christian. Clearly, we must consider what a person believes as well as what he does, or, in other words, the proper motives for their works.
The Jews also were very zealous in their religion, yet the apostle Paul did not consider them saved because their religion was 'not according to knowledge' and they attempted to make themselves right with God by their works while refusing to rely on Christ for salvation.
Still, one may argue, 'Mother Theresa believed in Christ and her works are the evident proof of her faith.'
Maybe. Maybe not.
If mother Theresa believed in Christ alone without depending on her works for justification, she was a true Christian, for the Scriptures say that a person 'is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ' (Galatians 2:16).
Her good works would be the evidence of genuine faith in Christ, as James say: 'I will show you my faith by my works' (James 2:18).
If that is so, it is confusing why Mother Theresa remained a faithful member of the Roman Catholic Church which officially teaches that personal good works are not merely the evidence but also the cause of personal righteousness for justification.
In that case, the Roman Catholic Church would curse the poor nun: 'If anyone says that the righteousness received is not preserved and even increased before God though good works, but that such works are merely the fruits and signs of the justification obtained, and not also the cause of its increase, anathema sit' (Trent, On Justification, canon 24).
On the other hand, if Mother Theresa depended on her good works for salvation, she was not a true Christian, for the Bible clearly states:
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast (Ephesians 2:8,9).
God has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began (2 Timothy1:9).
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us (Titus 3:5).
So what is my verdict? God knows! What we know for certain are the principles by which God justifies or condemns Mother Theresa and every one of us.
There is a far more important question for us than to speculate on whether Mother Theresa was a true Christian or not. God is her judge, 'for the LORD does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart' (1 Samuel 16:7).
He knows her motives as well as her actions. What is of greater concern to us is our own salvation. Am I a true Christian?
A false Christian is one who 'believes' in Christ and yet depends, at least in part, on his own works for salvation. His 'good' works are the fruit of pride and unbelief. A true Christian is one who believes in Christ and does not depend on his own works for salvation. His good works are the evidence to living faith.
Moreover, a true Christian is eager to let everyone know that Jesus is the only way to heaven. It is sad that Mother Theresa neglected this, the greatest work of all.
She wrote: 'There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God. I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic.'
It's true: there is one God; it is just as true that there is one Mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus! Muslims and Hindus are not saved without Christ, whether they are "better" people than us or not.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/11/2007 9:27:32 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
I KNOW I will see Mother Theresa and Pope John Paul II worshiping our Creator in Heaven when my time comes. Them and millions of other faithful catholics.
Umm.... if good works makes anyone a Christian, then we must also regard a friend of mine, a communist and an atheist, to be a true Christian as well, for he, though unknown to the media, has dedicated his life to help the poor.
Did Stephanos say anything about their works by themselves making them a christian? Now, perhaps Stephanos is impressed by their fruit, but let me remind you what he said:
quote:
But ANY member of that church who says that Christ Jesus, God in the flesh, died on the cross for the remission of our sins so that we may approach the glory of God; THEY I will call my friends and brothers and sisters in Christ.
He did not claim that their works made them a christian.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/11/2007 10:21:19 PM
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Odeliya
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Stephanos,
this thread is about indulgences, Pope, Lourdes and Pope’s current shenanigan.
It is not about salvation status of Catholic brethren or Protestant shortcomings. If you wish to express your opinions related exclusively to those there are threads for it.
Nobody here is showing hate toward Catholics, or questioning their salvation.I know some incredibly devoted catholic people, who love Jesus.
We are talking here about a particular Catholic doctrine we disagree with and we are offering critique of that doctrine.
So your posts were unrelated to the topic of the thread.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/11/2007 10:55:27 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1120
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Stephanos,
this thread is about indulgences, Pope, Lourdes and Pope’s current shenanigan.
It is not about salvation status of Catholic brethren or Protestant shortcomings. If you wish to express your opinions related exclusively to those there are threads for it.
Nobody here is showing hate toward Catholics, or questioning their salvation.I know some incredibly devoted catholic people, who love Jesus.
We are talking here about a particular Catholic doctrine we disagree with and we are offering critique of that doctrine.
So your posts were unrelated to the topic of the thread.
Really?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Earthless
A false Christian is one who 'believes' in Christ and yet depends, at least in part, on his own works for salvation. His 'good' works are the fruit of pride and unbelief. A true Christian is one who believes in Christ and does not depend on his own works for salvation. His good works are the evidence to living faith.
"False Christian" is quite clear.
And I believe that my objections to the hate for the RCC is very related to this topic. As long as Protestants attack catholic doctrines by saying that those beliefs lead away from salvation, then I will speak up and out against such unbliblical accusations. I say unbiblical because the bible says that the ONLY requirement for salvation is thus..."that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, YOU SHALL BE SAVED..." -Romans 10:9
This is the ONLY thing that matters in salvation. Works play NO part. Even if you believe they are required, the bible is quite clear that that does not matter. ONLY belief in Christ Jesus matters. The bible is clear that if you believe you ARE SAVED!
That is why I get so upset with people who attack the RCC. Because MANY DO say that because RCC teaches some things that means that anyone following those must not be saved. The idea of works and indulgences are evident of this attitude to RCC members. The idea of a "false Christian" because of works is not based in scripture. Scripture is clear that belief is what sets true Christians from false Christians. ANYONE who believes in their heart that Jesus is Lord and God raised him fromt he dead, is saved. It does not matter if they believe in error that they must also do works for God to ensure what they believe the fact they believe is enough for God.
I have no problem talking about the errors of the doctrine itself. But I am sickened by the obvious anti-Catholic rhetoric that always pops up when you talk about these issues.
You want to talk about indulgences. Is there much a difference between the Pope offering indulgences from protestant pastors from laying guilt trips on the members to give more offerings. How many sermons do we hear about how "God will bless those who give"? Is this so different? Yes the doctrine of purgatory is wrong, and yes claiming that if you buy certain indulgences to avoid it is wrong. But so are overt guilt trips trying to squeeze every last dime from the congergation. I am not talking just WOF/Prosperity preachers, I am talking about "We need ten thousand more to build the new education center! Look in your heart and see if God wants you to give! Remember God blesses those who give!" I ask again is that so different? I think those with out logs in their eyes can see that indeed it is not that different.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/11/2007 11:47:18 PM
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lw9
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quote:
Stephanos: This is the ONLY thing that matters in salvation. Works play NO part. Even if you believe they are required, the bible is quite clear that that does not matter. ONLY belief in Christ Jesus matters. The bible is clear that if you believe you ARE SAVED!
And here's the million dollar question: Believe in WHAT??
No one can have it both ways. People either have faith in the savior Jesus Christ, which means belief in His full atonement on the cross for their sins, or they have faith in their works and therefore attempt to become their own savior. The two are mutually exclusve. Bottom line: The RCC leads people to have faith in works, Mary, purgatory, indulgences, the pope, mother church, saints, idols, the rosary, non-Biblical sacraments, etc. And that is incompatible with the Biblical truth.
A Roman Catholic has every opportunity just like anyone else to read their Bibles, hear the truth, and receive saving faith. So yes, there can be believers sitting in the RCC, but it will be in spite of RCC teachings, not because of them. Once a Roman Catholic sees the Biblical truth and has their eyes opened by God, I would say they will not be able to sit comfortably in the Roman Catholic Church for very long.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/11/2007 11:59:29 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Stephanos,
this thread is about indulgences, Pope, Lourdes and Pope’s current shenanigan.
It is not about salvation status of Catholic brethren or Protestant shortcomings. If you wish to express your opinions related exclusively to those there are threads for it.
Nobody here is showing hate toward Catholics, or questioning their salvation.I know some incredibly devoted catholic people, who love Jesus.
We are talking here about a particular Catholic doctrine we disagree with and we are offering critique of that doctrine.
So your posts were unrelated to the topic of the thread.
Really?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Earthless
A false Christian is one who 'believes' in Christ and yet depends, at least in part, on his own works for salvation. His 'good' works are the fruit of pride and unbelief. A true Christian is one who believes in Christ and does not depend on his own works for salvation. His good works are the evidence to living faith.
"False Christian" is quite clear.
Earthles post you quoted came in response to your accusations, not caused them
And allow me to say again- faults of Protestant churches do not justify unbiblical doctrines of Catholicism. We cant lower the bar and not criticize because "everyone does it".. This is a dangerous road to moral relativism...
And i know it's dangers - i attend the state school.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 12:06:35 AM
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photoman52beta
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It is pretty upsetting to see some of the posts here. Christianity is about Love, how does one persuade the other without it?
There is only one that deserves our hostility.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 12:19:34 AM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1120
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
Stephanos: This is the ONLY thing that matters in salvation. Works play NO part. Even if you believe they are required, the bible is quite clear that that does not matter. ONLY belief in Christ Jesus matters. The bible is clear that if you believe you ARE SAVED!
And here's the million dollar question: Believe in WHAT??
No one can have it both ways. People either have faith in the savior Jesus Christ, which means belief in His full atonement on the cross for their sins, or they have faith in their works and therefore attempt to become their own savior. The two are mutually exclusve. Bottom line: The RCC leads people to have faith in works, Mary, purgatory, indulgences, the pope, mother church, saints, idols, the rosary, non-Biblical sacraments, etc. And that is incompatible with the Biblical truth.
A Roman Catholic has every opportunity just like anyone else to read their Bibles, hear the truth, and receive saving faith. So yes, there can be believers sitting in the RCC, but it will be in spite of RCC teachings, not because of them. Once a Roman Catholic sees the Biblical truth and has their eyes opened by God, I would say they will not be able to sit comfortably in the Roman Catholic Church for very long.
So where does it end? There are people who say that if you believe in infant baptism then you are not a Christian since that teaches a false baptism one not of/in Christ Jesus, so they are not saved. There are people who say that arminian believers are going to hell because they do not believe in the true Christ Jesus because they believe it is a choice, and that is part of the "works" system. Where does it end.
I will say it again, Paul in Romans is very clear, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, YOU SHALL BE SAVED...". Anyone who believes that is saved. Period. End of argument. Case closed.
Why is it so hard for people to just focus on the theological error, and not bring the salvation of the person into question. If the words of Paul are not enough for you, and you feel you have to add to them requirements of salvation, then I weep for you. For you are in just as much error as you claim the RCC is.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 12:40:10 AM
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bttggreg
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quote:
If I am wrong, please cite me the verse that lists the books of the bible.
I found it in the book of Index (just after preface and before Genesis).
In all seriousness, though, I would like to interject that Christ himself, without a doubt, stood against the Jewish "religion" of His time. But He said of Nathanael (a Jew) "Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit".
It is what is in us, not our label that Christ examines.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 12:58:38 AM
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lw9
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Stephanos:
quote:
Why is it so hard for people to just focus on the theological error, and not bring the salvation of the person into question.
I don't really understand where you are getting the idea that I am condemning Roman Catholics and that I hate them. It's because I care about them that I tell the truth on things like this. I condemn RCC teachings without a doubt, but I'm not condemning the people. I maintain, and have always maintained, that IF a person has true faith in Christ, they are saved, period, no matter which church they happen to sit in... or don't sit in. But true faith does not include faith in vain works and making yourself your own savior, so IF a Roman Catholic is relying on the RCC system of works for salvation... big trouble.
All of this aside, there is no justification on earth for the RCC's false teachings, and these are major errors leading people astray. They do not teach the truth, and I'm truly sorry that you don't seem to be getting that part.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 7:25:14 AM
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Lurker
Posts: 742
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
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ORIGINAL: lw9
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Lurker: I'll say it again here, I have never found another church denomination more in love with Christ and the scripture than Catholicism.
You are only kidding yourself with that comment. If the RCC loved Christ and His word, they would have kept His word rather than contradict it at every turn. If the RCC loved Christ, they would lead people to Christ instead of away from Him and into vain works. If the RCC loved Christ, they would not deny His full atonement of sins on the cross. But instead... it's a trip to Lourdes for the Roman Catholic to reduce their time in purgatory.
Amen, I agree to that. The Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory is pretty much saying that Jesus' death on the cross wasn't good enough. Why else would they say go to Lourdes to reduce your time in purgatory.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
O_o
Do you even understand the concept of purgatory?
That said, why not go to Lourdes to help pray for others who are like the ones Paul spoke of in 1 Corinthians? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15).
And it's obvious that there IS another state that isn't hell, but it isn't heaven either. Jesus spoke of it when He mentioned the sinners who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32). Obviously we can infer that there are some sinners who WILL be forgiven either in this age or the next. But one can't escape hell, and once they're in heaven, they've already been forgiven. So where exactly will these people here go? For me, the only biblically sound concept is that there is a place where one who still will be forgiven in the next age will be saved, but only as through fire.
But I digress, we're veering off into stuff better left to the Purgatory thread.
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Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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