RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence

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Lurker -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 7:27:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Odeliya What we have so far -we, anti-indulgences people claimed that Ind. are unscriptural. We asked our highly respected Catholic camp to help, they came with possible replies: Brillstreet : Popes and CC go a lot of good for humanity. Stephanos : Look at yourself! Protestant churches stink on many levels. Lurker : If one accept Pope's authority then he would accept indulgences. I agree wholeheartedly with all three of you! However all these 3 opinions give zilch Scriptural explanation why In. are needed. Neither 1)bad protestants, 2) CC's good deeds, no 3) Pope Binding and Loosing is a remote proof of it. Actually the last one sounds like a name for a B movie, if anything [sm=icon_smile_blush.gif] Pope has no right to bind or loose anyone's salvation... Err, yes he does. We see the instance of Jesus passing on this authority to Peter when He established Peter as the head of the Church in Matthew 16. "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 16:19). As Peter's rightful successor, they inherit the authority granted to the office.

earthless -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 8:13:32 AM)
When you love someone you tell them the truth. Especially when it has to do with eternal consequences.

kmangel -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 8:49:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lurker That said, why not go to Lourdes to help pray for others Location of prayer is not what is important. Where ever we are and when ever it occurs, God speaks to our heart to pray and that's when we should pray. Some may be called to taking a trip to Lourdes, but how about the people who would like to go but can't? They wouldn't be penalized in some way, will they? Again, I don't understand why Lourdes would be given any special spiritual benefit over any other place in the world. It's not the location in space that matters, is it, but rather the condition of one's heart--no matter where the person is in the world. However, some people may be beating themselves up over their inability to do something like go to Lourdes, feeling they are missing out on something spiritual.

Fritzpw_Admin -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 10:38:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephanos quote: ORIGINAL: Odeliya Stephanos, this thread is about indulgences, Pope, Lourdes and Pope’s current shenanigan. It is not about salvation status of Catholic brethren or Protestant shortcomings. If you wish to express your opinions related exclusively to those there are threads for it. Nobody here is showing hate toward Catholics, or questioning their salvation.I know some incredibly devoted catholic people, who love Jesus. We are talking here about a particular Catholic doctrine we disagree with and we are offering critique of that doctrine. So your posts were unrelated to the topic of the thread. Really? Really really. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: Earthless A false Christian is one who 'believes' in Christ and yet depends, at least in part, on his own works for salvation. His 'good' works are the fruit of pride and unbelief. A true Christian is one who believes in Christ and does not depend on his own works for salvation. His good works are the evidence to living faith. "False Christian" is quite clear. And I believe that my objections to the hate for the RCC is very related to this topic. Actually, it is off-topic. If you feel someone has violated the terms of service please use the report link instead of making it an issue in the thread. Please do not reply to this message within the Community. Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns. Please do not send me PMs regarding this message. Messages which disregard the words in red will be removed without warning and the poster may also be banned.

Fritzpw_Admin -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 10:40:53 AM)
To everyone, Lourdes, Pope authority, Indulgences, Purgatory, Sin, and Salvation are all acceptable topics to be discussed here in light of the Pope's newsworthy pronouncement. Discussing the hatred of Chrisitans towards other Christians is off-topic and disruptive to this thread. Plenty of ways to keep this thread on-topic, please do so. Please do not reply to this message within the Community. Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.cm with questions, comments, or concerns. Please do not send me PMs regarding this message. Messages which disregard the words in red will be removed without warning and the poster may also be banned.

martyfran -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 11:06:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kmangel quote: ORIGINAL: Lurker That said, why not go to Lourdes to help pray for others Some may be called to taking a trip to Lourdes, but how about the people who would like to go but can't? They wouldn't be penalized in some way, will they? Certainly, going to Lourdes is not the only way to obtain a plenary indulgence. There are many ways to obtain such an indulgence. For example, one can obtain a plenary indulgence by devoutly reading scripture for a half hour. What the Pope is doing is adding one option to a list of many options, so to answer your question, no, nobody will be penalized in any way if they don't go to Lourdes.

Kat_D -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 12:19:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: martyfran quote: ORIGINAL: kmangel quote: ORIGINAL: Lurker That said, why not go to Lourdes to help pray for others Some may be called to taking a trip to Lourdes, but how about the people who would like to go but can't? They wouldn't be penalized in some way, will they? Certainly, going to Lourdes is not the only way to obtain a plenary indulgence. There are many ways to obtain such an indulgence. For example, one can obtain a plenary indulgence by devoutly reading scripture for a half hour. What the Pope is doing is adding one option to a list of many options, so to answer your question, no, nobody will be penalized in any way if they don't go to Lourdes. As a former Catholic, this is the kind of stuff that kept me from knowing Jesus...who He truly is; what He actually did for me on the cross, and that "it (was) finished" there. I lived in fear that I'd never be able to obtain enough indulgences or do enough works and my complete focus became escaping the fires of hell and having enough credits to slide into purgatory...Oh, whooopeee! Because I became blinded by all their dogma and false doctrine, I completely missed Jesus Christ. Thank God that I eventually became so burdened, I left that church. It gave me the opportunity to have my eyes opened and finally see Him as He really is and I was set free!

Soxfan -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 12:40:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lurker Err, yes he does. We see the instance of Jesus passing on this authority to Peter when He established Peter as the head of the Church in Matthew 16. "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 16:19). As Peter's rightful successor, they inherit the authority granted to the office. The fact that your first sentence is 100% incorrect, renders the rest of your statement moot. quote: ORIGINAL: martyfran Certainly, going to Lourdes is not the only way to obtain a plenary indulgence. There are many ways to obtain such an indulgence. For example, one can obtain a plenary indulgence by devoutly reading scripture for a half hour. What the Pope is doing is adding one option to a list of many options, so to answer your question, no, nobody will be penalized in any way if they don't go to Lourdes. What a sad and empty way to have a relationship with Almighty God [&o]

martyfran -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 1:10:03 PM)
quote: As a former Catholic, this is the kind of stuff that kept me from knowing Jesus...who He truly is; what He actually did for me on the cross, and that "it (was) finished" there. I lived in fear that I'd never be able to obtain enough indulgences or do enough works and my complete focus became escaping the fires of hell and having enough credits to slide into purgatory...Oh, whooopeee! Because I became blinded by all their dogma and false doctrine, I completely missed Jesus Christ. Thank God that I eventually became so burdened, I left that church. It gave me the opportunity to have my eyes opened and finally see Him as He really is and I was set free! Well, as a former Baptist, let me just say that I met the fullness of Jesus Christ in the Catholic Church. If I were to go to Lourdes, the pilgrimage would draw me closer to Jesus Christ. I would be careful about generalizing from yourself, i.e. you had no relationship with Jesus Christ as a Catholic, therefore, nobody can have a relationship with Jesus Christ as a Catholic.

Kat_D -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 1:17:41 PM)
quote: I would be careful about generalizing from yourself, Right back atcha![sm=aside.gif]

martyfran -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 1:27:51 PM)
quote: Right back atcha! I didn't make a generalization, I made a response to your generalization. Unless of course, you want to deny you made a generalization and claim that what you really meant is that the you weren't close to Jesus Christ in the Catholic Church, but that is only you and others experience may be different. Is that what you were implying?

earthless -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 1:29:42 PM)
Why all the need for man made rules and empty (even insulting to God) traditions? There is no need for a system like the RCC, none! Jesus paid the full price for that to be ended with and here humans go and setup an even worse system.

martyfran -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 1:32:04 PM)
quote: Why all the need for man made rules and empty (even insulting to God) traditions? There is no need for a system like the RCC, none! Jesus paid the full price for that to be ended with and here humans go and setup an even worse system. Why the need for rules? Because Jesus gave the church the power to bind and loose. Or do you deny that? Are you saying that the church that Jesus founded has no authority?

rcjames -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 1:39:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: martyfran quote: Why all the need for man made rules and empty (even insulting to God) traditions? There is no need for a system like the RCC, none! Jesus paid the full price for that to be ended with and here humans go and setup an even worse system. Why the need for rules? Because Jesus gave the church the power to bind and loose. Or do you deny that? Are you saying that the church that Jesus founded has no authority? I am saying that the Church that Jesus founded is not the Roman Catholic Church. Why indulgences? Make a trip to Lourdes, then live your life how ever you want to and expect to go to Heaven? Thanks RC

Kat_D -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 1:40:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: martyfran quote: Right back atcha! I didn't make a generalization, I made a response to your generalization. Unless of course, you want to deny you made a generalization and claim that what you really meant is that the you weren't close to Jesus Christ in the Catholic Church, but that is only you and others experience may be different. Is that what you were implying? [:D][:D][:D][:D]

earthless -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 3:01:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: martyfran quote: Why all the need for man made rules and empty (even insulting to God) traditions? There is no need for a system like the RCC, none! Jesus paid the full price for that to be ended with and here humans go and setup an even worse system. Why the need for rules? Because Jesus gave the church the power to bind and loose. Or do you deny that? Are you saying that the church that Jesus founded has no authority? Jesus did not found the RCC organization. An organization that did not come into existence till centuries after the fact. a) the Church is the global/universal body of believers. & b) no church seen/depicted in the New Testament resembles what the RCC is.

brillstreet -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 3:15:15 PM)
I can't begin to refute the misconceptions and wrong headed perceptions of the Catholic Church that I've read here. They're too numerous. The most obvious is the impression that the Church forgives sins. It does not, nor does it claim to since Catholic teaching, like the Bible, says that only God can forgive sins. Not the Pope, not Bishops or priests - God. Is that clear enough? What pasters here seem to fail to realize is that the Catholic Church wasn't founded in recent memory with only the Bible as a guide. The Catholic Church has a lineage that reaches back to Christ and the Apstles. During the first century of the Church's developement they it was led by people with direct links to the living Christ and His Disciples. The Church is the product of 20 centuries of inspired ministering in the name of Christ. Its rites reach back 2 millenium amd encompassw the experiences of peoples and societies that we can't understand in our modern context, yet the ancient forms of worship remain to enrich us today. There's a deep history involved in Catholic worship that might seem strange to modern nelievers, but unfamiliarity shouldn't breed contempt, especially from fellow Christians.

earthless -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 3:16:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brillstreet I can't begin to refute the misconceptions and wrong headed perceptions of the Catholic Church that I've read here. They're too numerous. The most obvious is the impression that the Church forgives sins. It does not, nor does it claim to since Catholic teaching, like the Bible, says that only God can forgive sins. Not the Pope, not Bishops or priests - God. Is that clear enough? cc: The RCC & the Pope

earthless -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 3:17:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brillstreet The Catholic Church has a lineage that reaches back to Christ and the Apstles. No, it does not. Historical fact is evident of that even to the staunchest atheist. quote: ORIGINAL: brillstreet but unfamiliarity shouldn't breed contempt, especially from fellow Christians. According to the RCC (Council of Trent) - we (non-Catholics) are not Christians and are not saved nor right.

brillstreet -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 3:18:07 PM)
I can't believe I'm reading fellow Christians disparaging the possibility of miracles, namely Lourdes. Is it because it involves the Mother of God? Is it becasue its Catholic in nature? Surely, God is capable of anything, including letting small children see Mary and effecting cures in a holy place. Do you have to stick your fingers in the holes in His hands and feet and your hand into His side to believe?

earthless -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 3:19:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brillstreet I can't believe I'm reading fellow Christians disparaging the possibility of miracles, namely Lourdes. Is it because it involves the Mother of God? Is it becasue its Catholic in nature? Surely, God is capable of anything, including letting small children see Mary and effecting cures in a holy place. Do you have to stick your fingers in the holes in His hands and feet and your hand into His side to believe? Christians, according to the Bible, are called to test all things in light of Scripture. To be like the Bereans and when we do so - the RCC is found not only lacking, but in many instances in downright stark contradiction and blasphemy to Jesus Himself.

brillstreet -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 3:22:59 PM)
The Catholic Church doesn't maintain that you are not Christians. It maintains that you are not a true Church in the sense that Christ founded one Church, not many. Protestanism and its descendants are offshoots of the Catholic Church, founded at least 15 centuries after Christ gave the keys to Peter. The Church does not maintain that salvation is out of the reach of other Christians, however.

martyfran -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 3:23:07 PM)
quote: I am saying that the Church that Jesus founded is not the Roman Catholic Church. That is of course, your very fallible opinion. Unless you want to claim infallibility. quote: Why indulgences? Make a trip to Lourdes, then live your life how ever you want to and expect to go to Heaven? No. An indulgence doesn't let you do whatever you want and still go to heaven. Perhaps you should learn about what an indulgence actually is. quote: Thanks RC You're welcome.

brillstreet -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 3:24:58 PM)
What, specifically is lacking at Lourdes? What? No photos? We are supposed to test, but not to the point of cynicism. Some things are meant to be taken on faith, a principle the Bible also expresses.

brillstreet -> RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence (12/12/2007 3:33:56 PM)
What would the Church be that Christ founded? He told Peter His Church would be built upon him and it is to Peter that the Catholic Church traces its lineage. In 106 AD St Ignatius wrote a letter using the word Catholic in describibg the Church. It is the oldest surviving reference. It could have been in use earlier, but there is no record. Still, that was only 40 years after the death of Peter. The earliest Christians recognized themselves as part of the Catholic, meaning universal, Church. I'm not going to argue with them or Scripture.

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