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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 3:34:02 PM
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Soxfan
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Dear Mr. pope,
With all due respect, your pope-ness, money is a little tight this time of the year. Yet I want to make sure I pay my bribes...er indulgences, to avoid the dreaded purgatory. Sounds like a place I want to avoid, even if it doesn't exist in the Bible. You know the Bible, right? It's that 66 chapter book that contains the true inspired Word of God. I know you try to not let it get in the way of your man-made dogma and traditions.
Can't I just look for and pray to an image of Mary in a sandwich, or the bark of a tree, or a stain on a highway underpass and skip the trip to Lourdes?
You know how air travel is these days. What a hassle!
Give my best to Mary and the saints.
Sincerely,
Soxfan
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 3:48:57 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: brillstreet
He told Peter His Church would be built upon him
I would encourage you to study that passage in Scripture (not RC dogma), I think you will find that Christ was talking about the declaration that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
(Mat 16:15) He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
(Mat 16:16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
(Mat 16:17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 16:18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God is the foundation for the Church.
Also do a study on the name Peter (petros meaning a piece of a rock; a pebble) and the rock (Petra, meaning a mass of rock) that Christ stated is what the Church will be built on.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 4:05:44 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: brillstreet
I can't believe I'm reading fellow Christians disparaging the possibility of miracles, namely Lourdes. Is it because it involves the Mother of God? Is it becasue its Catholic in nature? Surely, God is capable of anything, including letting small children see Mary and effecting cures in a holy place.
I am not questioning children's visions of Mary for a single second. What I am against is treating something that should have been just a curious, nice occurence, reason for some additional reminder about our Lord for those kids, if they really think they saw her - and turning it into a idolatrious shrine that is being milked and exploited in a terrible fashion.
Do we really think Mary wants all that Lourdes hoopla and shrine worship? If she does, she is not the woman I think she is. Mother of Jesus needs no cheap publicity.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 4:39:14 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
That is of course, your very fallible opinion. Unless you want to claim infallibility.
cc: The Pope & the RCC
The irony!
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 4:41:01 PM
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earthless
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And an FYI to all..
The Council of Trent (and other RCC law) have never been refuted or denounced by the RCC. Hence, it is part of what they hold to be true. And in those tenets we find a lot of things that the basic Catholic apologetic will pretend is either:
a) no longer in effect
or
b) never was held to be such
Lies.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 4:52:49 PM
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kmangel
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
Certainly, going to Lourdes is not the only way to obtain a plenary indulgence. There are many ways to obtain such an indulgence. For example, one can obtain a plenary indulgence by devoutly reading scripture for a half hour. What the Pope is doing is adding one option to a list of many options, so to answer your question, no, nobody will be penalized in any way if they don't go to Lourdes.
However, in the person's mind he/she might feel they are missing out by not going to Lourdes itself in the coming year. Perhaps they didn't save enough for this trip. After all, this particular indulgence only just became known to people recently and people have only one year to make this particular pilgrimage. So for the Catholic believer who hasn't already set aside money and time to go, I can see guilt setting in. Oh, the person can do something else in place of going to Lourdes, but does second best ever really satisfy the longings of the heart? And then if a person does happen to go to Lourdes, there is a recommended order associated with visiting the site. So what happens if a person doesn't follow the order precisely? Does it really even matter if he views A before B? And by matter, I mean in a spiritual way. Yes, it may make the story clearer to a person if he views certain aspects of the site before another--but to God, does He care one way or the other?
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 4:57:17 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 565
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
And an FYI to all..
The Council of Trent (and other RCC law) have never been refuted or denounced by the RCC. Hence, it is part of what they hold to be true. And in those tenets we find a lot of things that the basic Catholic apologetic will pretend is either:
a) no longer in effect
or
b) never was held to be such
Lies.
Or that the person who is representing what was said at trent was not conveying the true meaning behind what was said.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 5:14:32 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
And an FYI to all..
The Council of Trent (and other RCC law) have never been refuted or denounced by the RCC. Hence, it is part of what they hold to be true. And in those tenets we find a lot of things that the basic Catholic apologetic will pretend is either:
a) no longer in effect
or
b) never was held to be such
Lies.
Or that the person who is representing what was said at trent was not conveying the true meaning behind what was said.
The text is plain as day. The Council of Trent anathematized any person that claims to be a Christian but is not a member/submits to the RCC. Or better said, to any Christian that disagrees with any detail of RCC doctrine.
Something which has never been recalled, canceled, etc.. Considering that and a lot more, it is at best ignorant and at worst deceitful for a Catholic to say that non-Catholics are Christians just like they are, according to the context of the RCC.
Many different editions of the "Catholic Encyclopedia" confirm these curses and there is a ritual for the Pope to do this.
The following from an article I have in my stack of RCC notes:
quote:
The declarations and anathemas of the Council of Trent have never been revoked. On the contrary, the decrees of the Council of Trent are confirmed by both the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965) and the official "Catechism of the Catholic Church" (1992).
The documents of the Second Vatican Council cite the Council of Trent as an authority for doctrinal statements, both in the text and in the notes. The "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church" states that the Second Vatican Council "proposes again the decrees of" three previous councils, one of which is the Council of Trent. The "Decree on the Training of Priests" says that the Second Vatican Council continued the work of the Council of Trent.
The "Catechism of the Catholic Church" was written for the purpose of summarizing the essential and basic teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. It was approved by Pope John Paul II in 1992 and the English translation was released in 1994. It has numbered paragraphs, and has been published in many languages.
The Council of Trent is mentioned in seventy-five paragraphs of the "Catechism". It is always mentioned in a positive, authoritative way. Some paragraphs mention it two or three times. Paragraph 9 of the "Catechism" says that the Council of Trent was the origin of Catholic Catechisms. The other 74 paragraphs in the "Catechism" which mention it cite the Council of Trent as an authoritative source which supports their doctrinal statements. Source: Mary Ann Collins - Catholic Concerns
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 5:17:41 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
Source: Mary Ann Collins - Catholic Concerns
Now there is an unbiased source of information!
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 5:28:11 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
Source: Mary Ann Collins - Catholic Concerns
Now there is an unbiased source of information!
Way to ignore the contents of the Council of Trent. That remains for Catholics that want to pretend it doesn't to address.
Unless you want to say that Mary Ann Collins wrote the Council of Trent.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 5:33:00 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
Unless you want to say that Mary Ann Collins wrote the Council of Trent.
Are you claiming that Mary Ann Collins is an unbiased commentator on the Council of Trent?
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 5:36:39 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
Unless you want to say that Mary Ann Collins wrote the Council of Trent.
Are you claiming that Mary Ann Collins is an unbiased commentator on the Council of Trent?
The language/tenets that I am speaking of stand on their own accord. Unless you want to disagree with what it says and then disagree with centuries of RCC affirmation of it?
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 5:40:16 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
The language/tenets that I am speaking of stand on their own accord. Unless you want to disagree with what it says and then disagree with centuries of RCC affirmation of it?
If you are interested in understanding what the Council of Trent says, are you saying that Mary Ann Collins is an unbiased interpreter of the Council of Trent? You didn't answer my question. So the question is, is she unbiased, yes or no?
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 5:45:43 PM
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lw9
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quote:
martyfran: Now there is an unbiased source of information!
According to the Roman Catholic Catechism and Vatican documents, the decrees made at the Council of Trent have never been revoked or repented. They are still upheld to this day. The Roman Catholic Catechism is actually a product of those decrees:
RCC Catechism: 9 "The ministry of catechesis draws ever fresh energy from the councils. The Council of Trent is a noteworthy example of this. It gave catechesis priority in its constitutions and decrees. It lies at the origin of the Roman Catechism, which is also known by the name of that council and which is a work of the first rank as a summary of Christian teaching. . . ."12 The Council of Trent initiated a remarkable organization of the Church's catechesis. Thanks to the work of holy bishops and theologians such as St. Peter Canisius, St. Charles Borromeo, St. Turibius of Mongrovejo or St. Robert Bellarmine, it occasioned the publication of numerous catechisms. LINK
RCC Catechism: 192 Through the centuries many professions or symbols of faith have been articulated in response to the needs of the different eras: the creeds of the different apostolic and ancient Churches,8 e.g., the Quicumque, also called the Athanasian Creed;9 the professions of faith of certain Councils, such as Toledo, Lateran, Lyons, Trent;10 or the symbols of certain popes, e.g., the Fides Damasi 11 or the Credo of the People of God of Paul VI.12 LINK
Dogmatic Constitution on the church, lumen gentium solemnly promulgated by holiness pope Paul VI, Nov 21, 1964
51. This Sacred Council accepts with great devotion this venerable faith of our ancestors regarding this vital fellowship with our brethren who are in heavenly glory or who having died are still being purified; and it proposes again the decrees of the Second Council of Nicea,(20*) the Council of Florence (21*) and the Council of Trent.(22*) LINK
Decree on priestly training, optatam totius proclaimed by his holiness pope Paul VI, Oct 28, 1965
The Fathers of this holy synod have pursued the work begun by the Council of Trent. While they confidently entrust to seminary administrators and teachers the task of forming the future priests of Christ in the spirit of the renewal promoted by this sacred synod, they earnestly exhort those who are preparing for the priestly ministry to realize that the hope of the Church and the salvation of souls is being committed to them. LINK
Constitution on the sacred liturgy. Pope Paul VI, Dec 4, 1963
The dogmatic principles which were laid down by the Council of Trent remaining intact (40), communion under both kinds may be granted when the bishops think fit, not only to clerics and religious, but also to the laity, in cases to be determined by the Apostolic See, as, for instance, to the newly ordained in the Mass of their sacred ordination, to the newly professed in the Mass of their religious profession, and to the newly baptized in the Mass which follows their baptism. LINK
Constitution on divine revelation, Pope Paul Vi, Nov 18, 1965
Therefore, following in the footsteps of the Council of Trent and of the First Vatican Council, this present council wishes to set forth authentic doctrine on divine revelation and how it is handed on, so that by hearing the message of salvation the whole world may believe, by believing it may hope, and by hoping it may love. LINK
Like it or not, Roman Catholics MUST deal with the very ugly contents of the Council of Trent.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 5:47:28 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
The language/tenets that I am speaking of stand on their own accord. Unless you want to disagree with what it says and then disagree with centuries of RCC affirmation of it?
If you are interested in understanding what the Council of Trent says, are you saying that Mary Ann Collins is an unbiased interpreter of the Council of Trent? You didn't answer my question. So the question is, is she unbiased, yes or no?
Every single human being on this planet is biased. We all have our biases and yes she is biased against the RCC, as am I.
What is being discussed here (or what I am trying to get you to discuss) is the actual Council of Trent. And its many areas which speak of people like me, a Christian, not being such in its eyes. And that not only am I not a Christian, but I am cursed. I am declared anathema by the RCC.
The Vatican affirms what I and others have been saying here.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 5:56:11 PM
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lw9
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Council of Trent, 25th session, Decree concerning indulgences:
"Whereas the power of conferring Indulgences was granted by Christ to the Church; and she has, even in the most ancient times, used the said power, delivered unto her of God; the sacred holy Synod teaches, and enjoins, that the use of Indulgences, for the Christian people most salutary, and approved of by the authority of sacred Councils, is to be retained in the Church; and It condemns with anathema those who either assert, that they are useless; or who deny that there is in the Church the power of granting them."
Well, there I go being all anathema and condemned to hell by the RCC again. For those who aren't aware, this is the ritual performed to proclaim someone anathema:
"In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: "Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment." Whereupon all the assistants respond: "Fiat, fiat, fiat." The pontiff and the twelve priests then cast to the ground the lighted candles they have been carrying, and notice is sent in writing to the priests and neighbouring bishops of the name of the one who has been excommunicated and the cause of his excommunication, in order that they may have no communication with him." Source: Catholic Encyclopedia
1. Where can I find this very pagan-like ritual in the Bible?
2. Where can I find indulgences in the Bible?
3. Where can I find the Biblical apostles proclaiming anathema on others for rejecting non-Biblical concepts such as indulgences?
4. Where can I find any church or person in the Bible claiming the literal power [like Christ] to judge and condemn people to hell in the Bible?
Just wondering.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 12/12/2007 6:37:36 PM >
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 8:24:02 PM
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jman4God777
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I think as protestants, we are to unknowledgeable on the Catholic church and its traditions (I also think way to many Catholics are aswell.)
But, we think, how could they even think such an un"biblical" thing?
I recently had a friend convert to the Greek Orthodox church, and they, as well believe in the "Church" and it's authority. They believe that the Bible isn't the only fact, they believe in other things or "oral traditions" in the church. They think that if God could preserve the unadulterated Bible, why not an unadulterated Church. Honestly, with Psalm 131 I must admit I don't know everything, and pray that in time God will show me my ecclesastical question's answers.
Unfortunatly I've more knowledge on the Catholic church, than most (95%) of Catholics I've met. I don't make opinions just cause "thats what my Pastor says". When I say what I do, it's becuase I've been I guess "openminded, but Open minded to Christ first. I say things to share the insight I've had. I don't say I believe it though. Surely not. I think we should learn about what makes other "religions" or "faiths" different, but only so when we are given a chance to speak to these other people, we can be well eqiupped. But, be first equipped with the Word!!!
This is just my perogative. (And my perogative is so not authority!, but please take time in comprehending it.)
cj
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 8:24:58 PM
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earthless
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Many of us here are former Catholics.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/12/2007 10:59:14 PM
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martyfran
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quote:
What is being discussed here (or what I am trying to get you to discuss) is the actual Council of Trent. And its many areas which speak of people like me, a Christian, not being such in its eyes. And that not only am I not a Christian, but I am cursed. I am declared anathema by the RCC.
Since you want to talk about anathema, perhaps you should learn about what it means. The following will give you information about anathema:
What anathema means
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/13/2007 12:28:53 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2399
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
What is being discussed here (or what I am trying to get you to discuss) is the actual Council of Trent. And its many areas which speak of people like me, a Christian, not being such in its eyes. And that not only am I not a Christian, but I am cursed. I am declared anathema by the RCC.
Since you want to talk about anathema, perhaps you should learn about what it means. The following will give you information about anathema:
What anathema means
Funny how you defend against this "biased" source that eartless was using with www.catholic.com.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/13/2007 5:35:27 AM
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martyfran
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quote:
Funny how you defend against this "biased" source that eartless was using with www.catholic.com.
Don't you think that if you are interested in learning about what anathema means from a Catholic point of view, shouldn't you learn it from a Catholic source?
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/13/2007 7:41:59 AM
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Acts29
Posts: 476
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fritzpw_Admin
quote:
Trips to Lourdes to cut time spent in purgatory
Pope Benedict XVI is offering relief from purgatory to Roman Catholics who travel to Lourdes over the next year, the Vatican said yesterday.
Pilgrims to the shrine in south-west France will receive "plenary indulgences" from the Pontiff, which the Church says reduce the time spent being "washed" of sin after death. The indulgences will be available from this weekend until Dec 8, 2008.
Read the rest...
I had thought the catholic church had gotten away from offering indulgences... guess I was wrong.
Please use this thread to discuss the topic of indulgences.
New Indulgence related articles:
* Pope OKs plenary indulgence for Lourdes' 150th anniversary
Here are some links to other catholic topics:
I do not mean to be disrespectful but I find this indulgence thing hillarious. I am not arguing anything regarding purgatory, healings or anything else that may have taken place at Lourdes. It is regarding indulgences you can receive by making a trip to Lourdes. It is funny to me.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/13/2007 8:09:41 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6205
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
What is being discussed here (or what I am trying to get you to discuss) is the actual Council of Trent. And its many areas which speak of people like me, a Christian, not being such in its eyes. And that not only am I not a Christian, but I am cursed. I am declared anathema by the RCC.
Since you want to talk about anathema, perhaps you should learn about what it means. The following will give you information about anathema:
What anathema means
Seems like a reversal of the Council of Trent - yet - the RCC has not reversed it.
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/13/2007 8:16:17 AM
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martyfran
Posts: 565
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quote:
Seems like a reversal of the Council of Trent - yet - the RCC has not reversed it.
Or perhaps, you misunderstood the meaning of what the Council of Trent said?
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RE: Pope Announces New Indulgence - 12/13/2007 8:47:37 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
Seems like a reversal of the Council of Trent - yet - the RCC has not reversed it.
Or perhaps, you misunderstood the meaning of what the Council of Trent said?
I know how to read and comprehend English enough to know what a statement is saying. Your link's attempt of explaining away the meaning of the Council of Trent on anathema's reminded me of Bill Clinton's "it depends on what the definition of is.. is."
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