RE: Mormonism?

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landabee -> RE: Mormonism? (8/21/2006 6:34:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: harvesthoney quote: ORIGINAL: brideoffire My aunt married a man who is a high priest in the mormon church and he regularly chases women and frequents bars but they have 5 children and live on a farm wih livestock but the mormon church owned EVERYTHING! I am a Mormon and I don't know of any case or family where the Mormon church owns EVERYTHING. You may have to provide more details on such an accusation. Now, I will agree that not all Mormons live up to the standards the LDS church teaches and if this is true and he does live on church property and elicites such behavior, you should report him immediately to LDS church authorities or pm me his name and where he lives and I will do it. It is a TOS violation to disclose personal information about a person without their consent. 7. You will not ask chat or forums users for the phone number, physical, email or instant message or other identifying information of a third party that is not present, nor provide such information if asked. Both the one asking for such information and the one supplying it will be viewed as violating this rule. I'm not a moderator. But I thought that it should be mentioned to avoid problems.

kmangel -> RE: Mormonism? (8/21/2006 6:58:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ScenesterForGOD But Ive been studying different religions because I figure if Im gonna evangelize, then I might as well know at least a little about other religions. Mormonism is really big here in Missouri, so I figure I might as well start with that. If anyone can give me any websites or something about mormonism and any of their ideas on anything really, that would be amazing. Thanks so much in advance. Getting back to the original question, I would like to respond that when witnessing to people who are Mormons, focus on what they believe saves them--the righteousness of Christ alone or their own self-righteousness? We could focus on all the doctrine we disagree with, doctrine we see as being totally ridiculous in our eyes, but it seems to me it would be better to focus on Who saves us--Christ--and how He gives us His righteousness. God can take it from there. I was saved with a lot of false doctrine myself (not from a cult but false nonetheless) and God didn't waste any time teaching me. He's still teaching me! Ask the Mormon if perfection is an attenable goal. A Mormon will be, from my understanding anyway, striving to reach perfection in this life. If he thinks he can reach perfection, though difficult that may be, then what precisely is sin? Does he have a soft, watered down attitude about sin? Does he consider all misdeeds sin, or only substantial misdeeds? We all sin, no matter how inconsequential we think what we do is, God sees sin for what it truly is. We are all destined to spend eternity in outer darkness (eternal hell) if left to ourselves to overcome. None of us have the ability to be good enough to be saved. And if they think they can make it, then either they have a very high opinion of themselves or they are totally clueless about sin and their utter hopelessness. Sin is missing the mark and it doesn't take a "huge" sin to cause us to miss the mark.

tony.nz -> RE: Mormonism? (8/21/2006 7:04:06 PM)
Just thought I would add that God is not glorified by the book of mormon. He is not glorified by fairy stories, even fairy stories told by big shiny fairies with funny names. The problem with it and all the other false "witnesses" to God that are out there, is that some people just say, why bother, who knows who is telling the truth?

harvesthoney -> RE: Mormonism? (8/22/2006 12:02:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tony.nz Just thought I would add that God is not glorified by the book of mormon. He is not glorified by fairy stories, even fairy stories told by big shiny fairies with funny names. The problem with it and all the other false "witnesses" to God that are out there, is that some people just say, why bother, who knows who is telling the truth? This might get me in trouble but......Have you bothered to read the BOM?

harvesthoney -> RE: Mormonism? (8/22/2006 12:25:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kmangel ORIGINAL: ScenesterForGOD But Ive been studying different religions because I figure if Im gonna evangelize, then I might as well know at least a little about other religions. Mormonism is really big here in Missouri, so I figure I might as well start with that. If anyone can give me any websites or something about mormonism and any of their ideas on anything really, that would be amazing. Thanks so much in advance. If you go to the "LDS church" thread mentioned in a previous post...The LDS church is big in a lot of western states. California, Arizona, Idaho, and Nevada. I mention these so if anyone wants to rehash this thread again in those places, there is no need. quote: Ask the Mormon if perfection is an attenable goal. A Mormon will be, from my understanding anyway, striving to reach perfection in this life. KJV Matt 5:48 might have something to do with it. And no, Mormons do not believe one can reach perfection in this life. It is through the Atonement and repentence we hope to have our sins blotted out at the time of judgement. KJV Acts 3:19.

harvesthoney -> RE: Mormonism? (8/22/2006 12:30:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: landabee quote: ORIGINAL: harvesthoney quote: ORIGINAL: brideoffire My aunt married a man who is a high priest in the mormon church and he regularly chases women and frequents bars but they have 5 children and live on a farm wih livestock but the mormon church owned EVERYTHING! I am a Mormon and I don't know of any case or family where the Mormon church owns EVERYTHING. You may have to provide more details on such an accusation. Now, I will agree that not all Mormons live up to the standards the LDS church teaches and if this is true and he does live on church property and elicites such behavior, you should report him immediately to LDS church authorities or pm me his name and where he lives and I will do it. It is a TOS violation to disclose personal information about a person without their consent. 7. You will not ask chat or forums users for the phone number, physical, email or instant message or other identifying information of a third party that is not present, nor provide such information if asked. Both the one asking for such information and the one supplying it will be viewed as violating this rule. I'm not a moderator. But I thought that it should be mentioned to avoid problems. Thanks for the warning. Honestly, I didn't expect Bride to take up the challenge anyway.

tony.nz -> RE: Mormonism? (8/22/2006 2:03:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: harvesthoney quote: ORIGINAL: tony.nz Just thought I would add that God is not glorified by the book of mormon. He is not glorified by fairy stories, even fairy stories told by big shiny fairies with funny names. The problem with it and all the other false "witnesses" to God that are out there, is that some people just say, why bother, who knows who is telling the truth? This might get me in trouble but......Have you bothered to read the BOM? Yep.

kmangel -> RE: Mormonism? (8/22/2006 9:55:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: harvesthoney quote: Ask the Mormon if perfection is an attenable goal. A Mormon will be, from my understanding anyway, striving to reach perfection in this life. KJV Matt 5:48 might have something to do with it. And no, Mormons do not believe one can reach perfection in this life. It is through the Atonement and repentence we hope to have our sins blotted out at the time of judgement. KJV Acts 3:19. You use the word hope. What is your definition of hope? Is it you hope as in knowing with assurance that your sins are blotted out because of Christ or hope as in hoping God will forgive you, but you don't really know for sure? The word hope as we usually use it means "wishful thinking", not a confident assurance of something happening. So are you confident that you are saved right now or not? Are you working towards making yourself righteous enough for God to save you or do you already know you are saved, sins and all?

harvesthoney -> RE: Mormonism? (8/22/2006 10:42:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kmangel quote: ORIGINAL: harvesthoney quote: Ask the Mormon if perfection is an attenable goal. A Mormon will be, from my understanding anyway, striving to reach perfection in this life. KJV Matt 5:48 might have something to do with it. And no, Mormons do not believe one can reach perfection in this life. It is through the Atonement and repentence we hope to have our sins blotted out at the time of judgement. KJV Acts 3:19. You use the word hope. What is your definition of hope? Is it you hope as in knowing with assurance that your sins are blotted out because of Christ or hope as in hoping God will forgive you, but you don't really know for sure? The word hope as we usually use it means "wishful thinking", not a confident assurance of something happening. So are you confident that you are saved right now or not? Are you working towards making yourself righteous enough for God to save you or do you already know you are saved, sins and all? My definition of hope is....the wanting of a desired outcome. So, I hope that through the Atonement and repentence that I will be found worthy to enter Gods presence after judgement. Am I saved now? I don't know, I hope so. I will leave that for God to decide when the time comes. Hopefully, the sins will be blotted out by then. Unfortunately life happens and I strive to do my best every day. Yes, I fall short, so I do my best to make amends.

harvesthoney -> RE: Mormonism? (8/22/2006 10:50:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tony.nz quote: ORIGINAL: harvesthoney quote: ORIGINAL: tony.nz Just thought I would add that God is not glorified by the book of mormon. He is not glorified by fairy stories, even fairy stories told by big shiny fairies with funny names. The problem with it and all the other false "witnesses" to God that are out there, is that some people just say, why bother, who knows who is telling the truth? This might get me in trouble but......Have you bothered to read the BOM? Yep. I recede

kmangel -> RE: Mormonism? (8/22/2006 11:34:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: harvesthoney My definition of hope is....the wanting of a desired outcome. So, I hope that through the Atonement and repentence that I will be found worthy to enter Gods presence after judgement. Am I saved now? I don't know, I hope so. I will leave that for God to decide when the time comes. Hopefully, the sins will be blotted out by then. Unfortunately life happens and I strive to do my best every day. Yes, I fall short, so I do my best to make amends. A lot of people think that God's requirements for us to go to heaven are to live a good life, help others, keep the ten commandments, and lots of other good things. You are hoping that by striving to do your best every day and making amends for the wrongs you do, that God will decide to blott out your sins. That's what religion is--a set of do's and don'ts. Religion depends on our ability to reach up and touch God through our own good works. It's hoping that God will find us worthy to enter God's presence. But the truth is we can't be good enough. The problem is that God requires perfection. "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavently Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48 I know for a fact I'm not perfect, as I believe you realize, too, in that you know you fall short, yet the Bible says if we are ever to become acceptable to God, we must be absolutely perfect. No one alive is perfect, so if we are ever going to know God here and now and live with Him in heaven forever, there has to be another way. God says we can have hope, hope that is for today and for always, even though we still sin. If religion is not the way, do you know what is?

crankius -> RE: Mormonism? (8/22/2006 3:07:02 PM)
Mormon doctrine fails to understand salvation by grace through Christ alone. When God examines us for salvation, it is not us He will examine. If He looked upon you or I in any way, we would be condemned. Even if we could live perfectly, we stand condemned, because of �one man�s offense�. We are marked with sin, which is darkness, and in God there can be no darkness. We are condemned in the law. quote: Romans 5:17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. When being examined for salvation, it is purely the righteousness of Christ which is imputed to our account, like a ledger from a bank. Our righteousness will always result in debt, which cannot be paid by us. Christ has placed His righteousness into our account, that we may appear before God free of condemnation. Romans 3: 21-24 explains how we receive righteousness from our faith in Christ. It is through faith that His righteousness is imputed to us, �This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.� We must completely accept that the gift of God�s grace, in Jesus Christ, is the only sufficient way that God has made for us to have everlasting life with Him. It is a gift, given by grace. Good works are the result of that grace. Good works are not in any way cooperating with that grace to earn us a place in heaven. No man ever enters heaven by the �will of the flesh� or the �will of man�. quote: John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Mormon doctrine teaches that the blood of Christ is not sufficient.

Bro_Shane -> RE: Mormonism? (8/22/2006 4:33:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crankius Mormon doctrine fails to understand salvation by grace through Christ alone. When God examines us for salvation, it is not us He will examine. If He looked upon you or I in any way, we would be condemned. Even if we could live perfectly, we stand condemned, because of �one man�s offense�. We are marked with sin, which is darkness, and in God there can be no darkness. We are condemned in the law. quote: Romans 5:17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. When being examined for salvation, it is purely the righteousness of Christ which is imputed to our account, like a ledger from a bank. Our righteousness will always result in debt, which cannot be paid by us. Christ has placed His righteousness into our account, that we may appear before God free of condemnation. Romans 3: 21-24 explains how we receive righteousness from our faith in Christ. It is through faith that His righteousness is imputed to us, �This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.� We must completely accept that the gift of God�s grace, in Jesus Christ, is the only sufficient way that God has made for us to have everlasting life with Him. It is a gift, given by grace. Good works are the result of that grace. Good works are not in any way cooperating with that grace to earn us a place in heaven. No man ever enters heaven by the �will of the flesh� or the �will of man�. quote: John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Mormon doctrine teaches that the blood of Christ is not sufficient. Excellent post, excellent.

harvesthoney -> RE: Mormonism? (8/22/2006 6:30:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kmangel quote: ORIGINAL: harvesthoney My definition of hope is....the wanting of a desired outcome. So, I hope that through the Atonement and repentence that I will be found worthy to enter Gods presence after judgement. Am I saved now? I don't know, I hope so. I will leave that for God to decide when the time comes. Hopefully, the sins will be blotted out by then. Unfortunately life happens and I strive to do my best every day. Yes, I fall short, so I do my best to make amends. A lot of people think that God's requirements for us to go to heaven are to live a good life, help others, keep the ten commandments, and lots of other good things. You are hoping that by striving to do your best every day and making amends for the wrongs you do, that God will decide to blott out your sins. That's what religion is--a set of do's and don'ts. Religion depends on our ability to reach up and touch God through our own good works. It's hoping that God will find us worthy to enter God's presence. But the truth is we can't be good enough. The problem is that God requires perfection. "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavently Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48 I know for a fact I'm not perfect, as I believe you realize, too, in that you know you fall short, yet the Bible says if we are ever to become acceptable to God, we must be absolutely perfect. No one alive is perfect, so if we are ever going to know God here and now and live with Him in heaven forever, there has to be another way. God says we can have hope, hope that is for today and for always, even though we still sin. Can't agree more. quote: If religion is not the way, do you know what is? Don't get the question.

harvesthoney -> RE: Mormonism? (8/22/2006 6:44:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crankius Mormon doctrine fails to understand salvation by grace through Christ alone. Mormon doctrine does understand salvation by grace through Christ...after all we can do. This just happens to be one of the many differences between LDS doctrine and Christian beliefs. quote: Mormon doctrine teaches that the blood of Christ is not sufficient. I have been taught in the LDS church that it is.

crankius -> RE: Mormonism? (8/22/2006 6:53:06 PM)
The contradiction in these statements is obvious. Examine them closely. Either Christ's blood is sufficient, or it needs a little help from you.

tony.nz -> RE: Mormonism? (8/22/2006 9:03:11 PM)
Who can say, they have done all they can do? If I fail to do something I could have done today, then I have fallen short. Yes- I know I can repent. But that doesn't change the fact that I have fallen short. And what if I am unaware of my sin? What then is the standard? 50%?, 75%? 95%? What is a "genuine attempt", and who knows if it would reach God's standard? If I tried to claim 100%, you would know that I am a liar. And, anything less, I fear would not do. "saved by grace through faith" is contradicted and nullified by "after all we can do". The fact is, there is nothing we can do to justify salvation. If there was, then there would be something we could "boast" about - Ephesians 2:8-9. Yes, we try to walk in 'the works prepared beforehand"- Eph 2:10, these are the fruits of our salvation, however they are in no way the roots.

kmangel -> RE: Mormonism? (8/23/2006 9:00:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: harvesthoney quote: If religion is not the way, do you know what is? Don't get the question. Relationship. That's what the Christian faith is all about. It is not a denomination or a creed. It is not a list of do's and don'ts. It is a personal relationship with God. This relationship doesn't rely upon our ability to reach up and touch God through our own good works, but rather it depends on God's willingness to reach down and touch us though His love. I once was taught an illustration when I was new in the faith: Imagine that there is a field that is about to be leveled by a bulldozer. A huge anthill is about to be destroyed. Imagine that I owned the field and I loved those ants and wanted to save them from the sure destruction coming their way. How would I do that? I could simply stand over the anthill and yell down to them that I loved them and want them to move so as not to be destroyed. I'm sure the only thing that would do would be to make the ants drive deeper into their anthill, trying to get away from my voice. But, if I changed myself into an ant and then communicated my love for them as well as the danger they were in, that may be a more effective way of getting my message across. God became a man. The Bible tells us that "Word became flesh and lived for a while among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:14 God wants to have a relationship with us but our relationship is broken by sin. Sin both separates us from God and from others. And the problem gets even more compounded when we understand the character of God. He is Perfect Father. "I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with loving-kindness." Jeremiah 31:3 God loves us regardless of our sin. The Bible also tells us God is the Perfect Judge. "Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong." Habakkuk 1:13 God is absolutely just, righteous and holy. The problem here is that on one hand God is the Perfect Father. He loves us and wants to have a personal relationship with us. On the other hand He is the Perfect Judge whose very nature is too pure to tolerate sin. What are we to do then? It can't be that we just do more good works than bad and perhaps God'll be merciful. His perfect nature as Judge wont allow any sin to exist. We must be perfect in every way, shape and form and I, as I know you know, too, am not perfect and never will be. That's a very hopeless place to find oneself, isn't it?

harvesthoney -> RE: Mormonism? (8/23/2006 10:15:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crankius The contradiction in these statements is obvious. Examine them closely. Either Christ's blood is sufficient, or it needs a little help from you. I don't see a contradiction. Are we not expected to be obedient to Gods laws and commandments, and follow his example?

kmangel -> RE: Mormonism? (8/23/2006 10:39:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: harvesthoney quote: ORIGINAL: crankius The contradiction in these statements is obvious. Examine them closely. Either Christ's blood is sufficient, or it needs a little help from you. I don't see a contradiction. Are we not expected to be obedient to Gods laws and commandments, and follow his example? Do you think what we do, even in following God laws and commandments, will be done perfectly? God requires perfection. "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavently Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48

crankius -> RE: Mormonism? (8/23/2006 12:34:32 PM)
The real question is, �How is one justified before God?� Is it by works? Then woe is us. quote: James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. Is it possible for anyone to be declared righteous by observing the law? quote: Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. Not one person on the earth can have works which outweigh their sins. quote: Psalms 130:3 If you, O Lord, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand? Not one person is righteous before the Lord! quote: Psalms 143:2 Do not bring your servant into judgment, for no one living is righteous before you. The Mormons are like Israel, trying to pursue righteousness by the law, instead of faith in the �stumbling stone�. quote: Romans 9:31-32 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." And the Mormons have stumbled upon Christ, because they worship an image of Christ rather than the true Christ. I praise God for the blood shed on the Cross by Christ. It is through faith in His redeeming blood that I can be justified. It is that blood which marks me, like the Passover, as being declared righteous through Christ alone. quote: Romans 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Harvesthoney, you can�t possibly claim to be greater than Abraham. Even he could not be justified by his works. For the Mormon who considers their works to be part of what brings them justification, they are actually only incurring more debt. quote: Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

lexie -> RE: Mormonism? (8/23/2006 5:04:25 PM)
I want to thank those who have posted websites with further information. I finished reading a book on Mormonism (false teachings) the other night and then went to the LDS for more information. I didn't find the website to be sufficient. Then I ran into two "elders" and they will be calling me next week to come over to my place and talk. I am in the process of preparing. I've got a loooong list of questions. BTW, I have read the Book of Mormon, twice. quote: I think that what you need to be wary about is that Mormons will often ask you to "pray over" the Book of Mormon, or whatever, and seek a sort of "spiritual witness' to all of this. I told my two Mormon friends everything I believed about Jesus Christ. Then I asked them to tell me why, according to them, I am wrong. The only answer they could give me was to pray to God for the truth. I went home and prayed to God thanking him for giving me the real truth - the Bible and Jesus Christ! The big issue I have right now is the issue of race. The Book of Mormon teaches that those who didn't want to believe were cursed with black skin. Those who did believe were made "fair and delightsome." This has been mentioned a few times in the Book of Mormon. Yet when I questioned my friends on this one, the answer I got was "well Gladys Knight is a member of my LDS church in Las Vegas!" Didn't quite give me the sufficient answers I need. According to them, my husband and child are cursed. However, from what I have read, if my husband and child convert, they will be given white skin! And my friends can try and tell me its not true, which they did, but its in their book so either their book has lied to them, or they are trying to change their book to fit the times and neither sits well. Either way, I will continue to research in preparation for their visit. If anyone has any good places to start conversation with them, let me know. By the way, my goal is not to convert them, but to learn more as well as to challenge them to look beyond their church, they way they want to challenge me to do the same.

tony.nz -> RE: Mormonism? (8/23/2006 5:43:23 PM)
Hi Lexie. I think reading through this thread, and the links provided, would be a good start. I think a major stumbling block for them is the fact fact they have "prayed over" the BOM, or whatever, and recieved some sort of spiritual witness, therefore it must be true. And, I must say, some christians also stop at this point. The problem, as I have pointed out, is that all sorts of people with different contradictory faiths, who are almost always sincere, have done the same thing. There is nothing unique in the mormon experience. However, the Spirit of God confrms and does not contradict the Word of God. They say that the bible has been altered, so that no one knows what it originally said. This is the claim of nearly every cult, and allows them to introduce any teaching which contradicts the bible. You need a firm grounding on why this is not true. I think the poster who mentioned that they have stumbled over "the stone of stumbling" and "rock of offence" also raises an excellent point. At the end of the day, it all hangs on the identity of Jesus Christ. If Jesus is a created being, and the brother of satan, LDS may be the true faith. If, however, He is God, and co-equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit, they are wrong. They follow a false Christ. I was reading through John last night, and marvelling as to how anybody could misunderstand His claims as to His identity. The Jews certainly didn't. This site also has some good background on who is Jesus. The truth is grounded upon the question "who do you say I am?". God bless.

harvesthoney -> RE: Mormonism? (8/23/2006 6:04:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kmangel quote: ORIGINAL: harvesthoney quote: ORIGINAL: crankius The contradiction in these statements is obvious. Examine them closely. Either Christ's blood is sufficient, or it needs a little help from you. I don't see a contradiction. Are we not expected to be obedient to Gods laws and commandments, and follow his example? Do you think what we do, even in following God laws and commandments, will be done perfectly? God requires perfection. "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavently Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48 So being saved makes one perfect?

landabee -> RE: Mormonism? (8/23/2006 6:18:50 PM)
Romans 3:10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; From a previous thread, I posted the following: quote: Romans 12:1 Therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, I urge you to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God; this is your spiritual worship. As Christians, we do not count on our works for our salvation. As I said before, they are nothing but filthy rags. Jesus Christ did it all. But as a worship of the true Jesus that paid the debt that would could not, we thank Him and worship Him in our lives�specifically how we live our lives. That is why we do all that we can do. His grace is sufficient to save.

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