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RE: Mormonism? - 1/9/2008 9:03:34 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 512
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: offline
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quote:
In other words, it makes no sense for the Book of Mormon to be written in the same language style as the King James Bible unless it was the attempt of a fake trying make his fiction sound holy.
Eutychus,
You are absolutely correct. According to mormon beliefs, centuries before the birth of Christ, a family of Jews left Israel and traveled to South America. The BoM is the record of this people and their descendents, that included a visit from the resurrected Jesus and culminated in a great war that led to their extermination. If these events were true (obviously they are not), then these stories would be written in their native tongue, which is Hebrew, and the various dialects that would have developed over the years. When JS translated the stories from the gold plates they were written on, he would have translated into the his language. This is how translation works. The KJV was translated from Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Latin into the language they spoke. When Martin Luther translated the Bible, he did so into his language - German. Jerome translated the Bible into the language of his day - Latin.
According to mormon beliefs, JS translated the BoM word for word. The stories vary, but one of the more well known accounts has Smith looking at the plates, a word would highlight and remain that way until Smith's [translation assistant] correctly recorded the translated word. This method suggests that either God or the ancient jews spoke KJ english. The fact is that JS made the kind of mistake we might expect someone with a limited education to make. He claimed to be making an inspired translation, but he ended up translating one obsolete language into another. That said we know that JS did not have divine inspiration when he supposedly tranlated, because he claimed to translate a papyri with egyptian hieragliphics into the book of Abraham. Interestingly enough, that also ended up in KJ english. More than a hundred years later, historians found the original papyri that Smith translated, and with an ability to read egyptian hieragliphics that wasn't available in Smith's day, they proved that his translation was utterly false. In fact, if my memory serves me, scholars tell us that Smith translated 52 words from a symbal tht reprensented the equivalent of a single consenant.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/9/2008 10:09:59 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 1698
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kmangel
Harvesthoney,
How does one worship someone (Jesus) but not pray to Him? Isn't prayer a part of worship?
I know that you addressed this to harvesthoney, so I hope you don't mind if I comment. I left the LDS church an incredibly long time ago, but I still almost always pray to the Father in Jesus name. I also worship Christ. I have no problem singing to Him. "Jesus, I adore You, lay my life before You..." and "My Jesus, I love Thee..." are some examples. The only time I address Jesus in prayer is in a moment of panic. I can't explain that. I have never, to my recollection, prayed to the Holy Spirit. I do believe in and worship the Triune God.
Some LDS worship only the Father (they quote, "to us there is but one God"); some worship Father and Son; some worship Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
Please look at my previous post and see the different statements of Neal A. Maxwell in 1981 and Boyd K. Packer in 1984.
“We Worship the Father... In an official interpretation of Moses 1:6, the First Presidency (Joseph F. Smith, Anthon H. Lund, And Charles W. Penrose) said: ‘But the sole object of worship, God the eternal Father, stands supreme and alone...’
To read my previous post:
PLEASE CLICK HERE
< Message edited by Ephesians4_32 -- 1/9/2008 10:33:44 PM >
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/9/2008 10:24:29 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2918
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
Living in Utah, I am familiar with the rejection of Mormon Doctrine by church members. They say that it contains error, or is innaccurate in places, but that is not the real reason; for in sixteen years of asking I have not found even one mormon who could point to a single error, inaccuracy, or misrepresentation of doctrine. The real problem is that while McConkie was attempting to provide a useful study tool for members; creating the mormon version of a topical bible had devastatingly unintended consequences. Spelling out mormon doctrines, and placing them side by side, revealed the contradictions. Groups that minister to mormons used McConkie's book to demonstrate how mormonism could not be true.
If you run into someone that says he or she disagrees with McConkie, or that McConkie was just expressing his opinions; ask for specific examples. As I said, not one person in over a decade and a half have offered up even one example. If someone actually does give and example, then read it and compare McConkie's description to official mormon doctrine. You can be certian that you will not find any discrepencies. If the person does not provide any examples, then offer to go through the book looking for discrepencies between McConkie's descriptions and official mormon theology. At the end of each entry, ask whether or not it is accurate, or if it is just an opinion. It won't take long before you both realize where the exercise is going.
I know this post was a few back, but it really highlights something I've experienced in 10 years of living on the Western Slope of Colorado, which certainly doesn't have as many Mormons as Utah, but has a pretty significant population.
It's been my experience that many Mormons (not all Mormons but it seems a fairly large number) have a very limited knowledge of Mormon doctrine. I've had countless conversations with Mormons, and unless they are men on mission, they really cannot speak to the fine points of their written doctrine, and even the missionaries are too programmed to get into anything too much. One thing that seems consistent among people who cling to this religion is that they have a great need to be accepted and apparently Mormons give them enough acceptance that they remain. I don't know if my experience is indicative of Mormons in general, but it seems to be for a chunk of them in Northwest Colorado.
_____________________________
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/10/2008 1:09:23 AM
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figmentPez
Posts: 2063
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
quote:
ORIGINAL: figmentPez
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
We have a different doctrinal opinion on the nature of God. Your doctrine says that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are "three in one". So when you worship God you are also are worshipping Jesus.
You still don't understand Christian doctrine, do you? When Christians worship God, we are worshiping Jesus Christ. There is no "also". We worship Jesus Christ because He is God. The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God, yet they are not three gods, but only One God. I am fully aware that Christians worship Jesus, but you fail to realize why Christians worship Jesus. Christians really and truly believe that only God is worthy of worship, because of who He is, and that the Son of God is eternally God, deserving that worship.
Believe it or not I do understand what you believe. I just happen to believe differently.
quote:
quote:
LDS doctrine says God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings. We worship God as the Father, and Jesus Christ as the Savior and Redeemer of the world. So, we worship both.
So, if you worship both, and you believe that Jesus is not God, then why does God say to worship God alone? Why is it acceptable for you to worship this "jesus christ" you say is not God, when scripture says to worship God and no other. That's idolatry and polytheism.
ibid
If you understood what I believe, then you wouldn't misrepresent it in your statements.
Second, you can't just claim "I just happen to believe differently" in regards to the worship of multiple beings. God is very clear. There is ONE God, and we are to worship God alone, and none other. This is what scripture declares to be true. If you acknowledge that Mormons worship multiple beings, then you admit polytheism, and you admit to worshiping a God that is not the God of the Bible, is not the God of Abraham, not the God of Moses.
_____________________________
I make this challenge to all Christians:
Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/10/2008 1:58:45 AM
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apologist1948
Posts: 27
Joined: 11/19/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
quote:
ORIGINAL: kmangel
quote:
ORIGINAL: harvesthoney
I pray to Hevenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ. HF is the Creator of my spirit and Jesus is the Redeemer of my flesh. I am indebted to both.
Would you ever pray to Jesus directly?
Heavenly Father is whom I pray to.
Do you believe that St. Stephen was in error in the 8th Chapter of the Book of the Acts of the Apostles?
I quote,
8:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (KJV)
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/10/2008 7:56:53 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
I know this post was a few back, but it really highlights something I've experienced in 10 years of living on the Western Slope of Colorado, which certainly doesn't have as many Mormons as Utah, but has a pretty significant population.
It's been my experience that many Mormons (not all Mormons but it seems a fairly large number) have a very limited knowledge of Mormon doctrine. I've had countless conversations with Mormons, and unless they are men on mission, they really cannot speak to the fine points of their written doctrine, and even the missionaries are too programmed to get into anything too much. One thing that seems consistent among people who cling to this religion is that they have a great need to be accepted and apparently Mormons give them enough acceptance that they remain. I don't know if my experience is indicative of Mormons in general, but it seems to be for a chunk of them in Northwest Colorado.
I think your experience is true not just for Mormons but across the religious spectrum. I've read that most people today, especially the 20 & 30 somethings, don't care about doctrine but want the feelings of being accepted, loved and part of a caring group. To me it is scary that doctrine carries so little weight, because many cults are atuned to emotionally connecting with anyone showing an interest (as even we should be). I met a woman who became a Mormon because they helped her when she was new to a community and having financial difficulties. She felt loved by them because nobody from other churches bothered to even welcome her to town.
While there are exceptions, most of the members of cults I've met are warm, caring, and likeable. They are sincere but sincerely wrong.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/10/2008 8:36:23 AM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
Status: offline
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Greetings ScenesterForGod!
Please notice that Joseph Smiths testimony about what the angel 'moroni's instructions were that he was not to show anyone the 'golden' plates, yet he showed them to a lot of family members and associates who signed that they had seen them. Also, there is no dated documentation, historically, which would pre suppose that Joseph Smith's material is supported by historical knowledge nor is there any evidence of the existence of the book until it was 'revealed' to Joseph Smith personally.
The fact that he willfully disobeys the angel speaks of false prophet status. His story doesn't add up, then. Therefore, we can exclude the texts from any serious belief status.
What was wrong with the original 66 books that we were given? After the canon of Scripture is set, there is no need for any addition to Doctrine.
They do, however, say that they believe in the spiritual gifts that God gives through his Holy Spirit to believers. I notice, however, that it is more of a title to be thrown around in the Church Governance.
3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
6But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
Matthew 20:25
Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.
Mark 10:42
Jesus called them together and said, "You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.
Luke 22:25
Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors.
Revelation 2:15
Likewise you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ScenesterForGOD
Hey, Im new here so Im sorry if this isnt the right place to post this.
But Ive been studying different religions because I figure if Im gonna evangelize, then I might as well know at least a little about other religions. Mormonism is really big here in Missouri, so I figure I might as well start with that.
If anyone can give me any websites or something about mormonism and any of their ideas on anything really, that would be amazing. Thanks so much in advance.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/29/2008 11:05:18 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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When I saw the story yesterday about the death of Mormon president Gordon B. Hinckley, the words of Jesus about the rich man came to mind, "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away..."
Hinckley spent 97 years as a devoutly religious man, all of it wasted. And under his tenure, another 4 million have joined in on the same journey away from God and Truth.
Sad. Very sad.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/29/2008 12:12:54 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
Status: offline
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Greetings! If the other Churches would go door to door like the Mormons, these 4 million would have had the opportunity to hear the Gospel of Grace.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
And under his tenure, another 4 million have joined in on the same journey away from God and Truth.
Sad. Very sad.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/30/2008 6:21:09 PM
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somemormonguy
Posts: 16
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
If these events were true (obviously they are not)
What is funny here, is that you make an assumption about something the rest of your post shows you know nothing about. I'm not going to preach my doctrine here, but at least get your "facts" correct.
quote:
then these stories would be written in their native tongue, which is Hebrew
Not even one sentence in, and already you make a mistake. It wasn't Hebrew, it was Egyptian. It says so on the VERY first page in the second verse. Obviously you find yourself entiled to make assumptions about a book you've clearly never read. I wonder what would happen if people took the same approach to the Bible? I'm not saying you have to believe, agree, or even tolerate it. Just be knowledgeable about the subject you are critiquing so no one can accuse you of ignorance.
quote:
According to mormon beliefs, JS translated the BoM word for word.
No. Incorrect. Translation is impossible to perform perfectly. Do you know two or more languages like I do? It isn't easy, and it is impossible to produce a perfect translation. The Bible cannot even claim that, let the other shoe drop would you?
quote:
The stories vary, but one of the more well known accounts has Smith looking at the plates, a word would highlight and remain that way until Smith's [translation assistant] correctly recorded the translated word.
No. The IDEA had to be conveyed. The Book of Mormon could only be translated into the language that exsisted in Joseph's mind. David Whitmur had that same mentality as you do, which is why he had problems with Jospeh going back and doing grammer and spelling corrections. He assumed it was word for word, however, the idea or message was what needed to be conveyed, and the way Joseph phrased it was of secondary importance. This is made clear in the accounts given by Oliver Cowdry, and Martin Harris, and of course Jospeh himself.
quote:
This method suggests that either God or the ancient jews spoke KJ english.
Again, you don't understand the translation process. This only shows that the people who translated the Bible spoke in KJ english. The Hebrew must be changed (sometimes entire phrases must be re-worded because it doesn't exsit or is impossible to say in KJ english) so that the person reading it can understand it.
quote:
The fact is that JS made the kind of mistake we might expect someone with a limited education to make. He claimed to be making an inspired translation, but he ended up translating one obsolete language into another. That said we know that JS did not have divine inspiration when he supposedly tranlated, because he claimed to translate a papyri with egyptian hieragliphics into the book of Abraham. Interestingly enough, that also ended up in KJ english. More than a hundred years later, historians found the original papyri that Smith translated, and with an ability to read egyptian hieragliphics that wasn't available in Smith's day, they proved that his translation was utterly false. In fact, if my memory serves me, scholars tell us that Smith translated 52 words from a symbal tht reprensented the equivalent of a single consenant.
Read my previous comments, you must concede then that the Bible translations are un-inspired. The New Testament alone contains more errors than there are words in it.
Again, I don't mind if you disagree with my beliefs, but just know what you're talking about before you go cut, copy, and paste off some anti-mormon site.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/30/2008 6:26:39 PM
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somemormonguy
Posts: 16
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
When I saw the story yesterday about the death of Mormon president Gordon B. Hinckley, the words of Jesus about the rich man came to mind, "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away..."
Hinckley spent 97 years as a devoutly religious man, all of it wasted. And under his tenure, another 4 million have joined in on the same journey away from God and Truth.
Sad. Very sad.
So you think he will go to hell? Do you know the good things that man did throughout his life? Did you bother to read? Do you even care? I got a scripture for you:
By their fruits ye shall know them.
Gordon B. Hinckley didn't sit in front of a computer all day telling others what disqualified them from being christian, he lived the life of a christian. Maybe something to consider? If your beliefs are so important, what are you doing here? Do what prophetica says and get out there and preach. Or do you think you've done enough by insulting a good man's name?
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/30/2008 6:38:01 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6204
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: somemormonguy
So you think he will go to hell?
If he died without being born-again, yes. Considering he was president of one of the largest cults in the world. A religion that preaches a jesus, a god, a gospel absolutely foreign to those revealed in Scripture, the Bible.. one can safely say that his odds of having been born-again are scarce.
quote:
ORIGINAL: somemormonguy
Do you know the good things that man did throughout his life?
The Bible plainly states that our good works are like filthy rags unto God. We cannot ever earn salvation or do enough "good" things to get salvation.
Ephesians2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God . not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works." From faith proceeds our works.
Titus 3:5 says, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us through the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Spirit."
God has given only one way for man to come to him. He became the way for us to come by the crucifixion of Christ. Accomplishing what man could not. All we have to do is abandon our own deeds to be accepted by him.
So what works must you do to receive salvation? NONE
You must Believe (have faith) in the gospel, receiving his love gift to us. Its simple yet profound.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/30/2008 6:45:19 PM
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A_crucified_man
Posts: 164
Joined: 12/11/2007
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: somemormonguy
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
When I saw the story yesterday about the death of Mormon president Gordon B. Hinckley, the words of Jesus about the rich man came to mind, "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away..."
Hinckley spent 97 years as a devoutly religious man, all of it wasted. And under his tenure, another 4 million have joined in on the same journey away from God and Truth.
Sad. Very sad.
So you think he will go to hell? Do you know the good things that man did throughout his life? Did you bother to read? Do you even care? I got a scripture for you:
By their fruits ye shall know them.
Gordon B. Hinckley didn't sit in front of a computer all day telling others what disqualified them from being christian, he lived the life of a christian. Maybe something to consider? If your beliefs are so important, what are you doing here? Do what prophetica says and get out there and preach. Or do you think you've done enough by insulting a good man's name?
What fruits of the Holy Spirit did his life display? He couldn't because he wasn't born-again.
Jesus said in John 14:6 that no man comes to Father but by Him - He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
No man can make it to heaven without believing on the Lord Jesus Christ - His death, burial, and resurrection. Only Jesus can give us eternal life.
Romans 10:9-10 clearly states this, v.9 "That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and shall believe in your heart that God has raised from the dead, you shall be saved." v. 10 "For with the heart man believes unto Righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto Salvation." This clearly points to the Cross and the bodily resurrection of Christ from the dead - it is so simple that a child can understand and believe the Gospel that saves.
_____________________________
Derek
John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease."
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/30/2008 8:17:15 PM
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somemormonguy
Posts: 16
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
If he died without being born-again, yes. Considering he was president of one of the largest cults in the world. A religion that preaches a jesus, a god, a gospel absolutely foreign to those revealed in Scripture, the Bible.. one can safely say that his odds of having been born-again are scarce.
Well, you've demonstrated you're incapable of rational thought...the very fact you've used the word cult shows that the rest of what you have to say is irrational because cult being applied to the Mormon church is irrational. In 58 pages of this terrible excuse for thought provoking discussion, the Mormon church has been repeatedly attacked, mis-represented, mis-understood, taken out of context, and/or falsified intentionally or out of ignorance. Again, I don't mind disagreement with my beliefs, but for crying out loud you people are making fools out of yourselves.
And once again, I am being told my beliefs are completly foreign to the Bible. What do you know about it? Show me where. Don't tell me what you heard from a friend of a friend of your aunt's pastor about mormon underwear. Tell me where it says in the Bible:
There are no more prophets
There can be no more revelation
There are no more apostles
There is no need of authority
There can be no more scripture
Deal with the basics, and then if you want to talk about Kolob, we'll talk about Kolob. Show me where I'm wrong on these points first. Tell me why I should accept your interpretation of it, how do you know without a prophet? If it is by the spirit, why are your promptings different from other christian's promptings? Why should I accept the Nicene creed as authoritative? How is it in Harmony with the Bible? How do you reconcile the differences? Tell me, preach to me. I want to know. But DO NOT post responses acting like a bunch of children rocking back and forth, frothing at the mouth, hands to your ears, screaming cult!
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/30/2008 8:25:59 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6204
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: somemormonguy
Well, you've demonstrated you're incapable of rational thought
Because of the absolute truth of Scripture that I presented? That's akin to faulting a math teacher for saying 2 + 2 = 4.
quote:
ORIGINAL: somemormonguy
...the very fact you've used the word cult shows that the rest of what you have to say is irrational because cult being applied to the Mormon church is irrational.
No, it's a factual statement. Mormonism is a cult/off-shoot of biblical Christianity. Joseph Smith himself toted such statements himself in laying his foundation for his religion.
quote:
ORIGINAL: somemormonguy
In 58 pages of this terrible excuse for thought provoking discussion, the Mormon church has been repeatedly attacked, mis-represented, mis-understood, taken out of context, and/or falsified intentionally or out of ignorance. Again, I don't mind disagreement with my beliefs, but for crying out loud you people are making fools out of yourselves.
Ironic and funny when you consider that many of those posting here are ex-Mormons and some even in high positions of leadership within the LDS.
quote:
ORIGINAL: somemormonguy
And once again, I am being told my beliefs are completly foreign to the Bible. What do you know about it? Show me where. Don't tell me what you heard from a friend of a friend of your aunt's pastor about mormon underwear. Tell me where it says in the Bible:
There are no more prophets
There can be no more revelation
There are no more apostles
There is no need of authority
There can be no more scripture
Great questions and many which, had you read the 58 pages you cited, would see they have been covered.
quote:
ORIGINAL: somemormonguy
Deal with the basics, and then if you want to talk about Kolob, we'll talk about Kolob. Show me where I'm wrong on these points first. Tell me why I should accept your interpretation of it, how do you know without a prophet? If it is by the spirit, why are your promptings different from other christian's promptings? Why should I accept the Nicene creed as authoritative? How is it in Harmony with the Bible? How do you reconcile the differences? Tell me, preach to me. I want to know. But DO NOT post responses acting like a bunch of children rocking back and forth, frothing at the mouth, hands to your ears, screaming cult!
No problem, let's start with one item so that we can keep the discussion legible and flowing, yes? Cool.
In addressing the question of apostles and prophets today, we must carefully define our terms.
Certainly the church today needs church planters, missionaries, or leaders who act as pastors over other pastors. Fortunately, when some people say that the church needs "apostles" today, that's all that they mean. And while the usage of the term "apostle" is not biblical, certainly the church does need such persons.
Likewise, when some people say that the church needs "prophets" today, they mean that the church needs Spirit-filled leaders who can inspire the church with a vision for its mission, or who can challenge the church to deeper commitment to Christ.
And again, while this many not be the most biblical use of the term "prophet," there can be no doubt that the church does need such persons.
On the other hand, if by "apostles" and "prophets" one means Christian leaders of the same kind as the twelve apostles or the apostle Paul, they are clearly mistaken.
There are no church leaders today whose authority cannot be questioned, or through whom new doctrinal revelations are given to the church, or whose teachings must be accepted by all Christians.
The New Testament teaches that the apostles of Christ were persons to whom Christ appeared after His resurrection and whom He commissioned to be His personal spokesmen (Acts 1:21-26; 5:32; 1 Corinthians. 9:1; 15:8).
Ephesians 2:20 and 3:5 teach that the apostles and prophets had foundational offices through which Christ established the church as the newly constituted people of God, a church in which both Jews and Gentiles make up the singular body of Christ.
Clearly many men today who claim to be apostles have taken upon themselves authority over other people which has not been given to them by God. Additionally, they are making prophetic utterances which they falsely claim to be divinely inspired.
Tests For False Prophets
The Bible gives us two tests for detecting false prophets:
And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Deuteronomy 18:21-22
The first test for a false prophet is his accuracy. True prophets were 100% accurate. Not 95% or even 99%, but 100%. True prophets were controlled by God, so they never missed. If a prophet missed even one time, that "prophet" was a "false prophet".
Those who claim to be prophets today miss all the time. The amazing thing, however, is that even though they predict things that do not come to pass, they do not lose their following. In the Old Testament they would have lost their life. God so despised false prophets that in the verse prior to our last text, He instituted the death penalty for them.
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deuteronomy 18:20
Those within/from the LDS/Mormon church have all failed this test. Some scores of times, that is
There is a second test for false prophets:
If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deuteronomy 13:1-3
In this case, what the false prophet predicts comes to pass, but he is still a false prophet. God will sometimes allow this to test
people to see if they love him with all their heart. The test this time is in the message the prophet gives.
Does it line up with scripture? Does it lead us into truth and following the God of the Bible? Or does it lead us into following after a false god or into ERROR.
Some of the greatest doctrinal heresy today comes from the mouths of those who claim to be prophets. We test these so-called prophets by examining whether or not what they teach lines up with the Bible.
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try (test) the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world 1 John 4:1
It is the doctrine that is taught that is the test of the spirit behind the prophet. The Bible warns us that in the last days, many shall be deceived by evil spirits.
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 1 Timothy 4:1
So then, there are two tests for false prophets. First, a prophet has to be 100% accurate. If they miss even once they are a false prophet. Secondly, a prophet must speak according to sound doctrine. Their message may not contain doctrinal error. It must lead people in the way of truth and after the true God of the Bible.
All LDS/Mormon prophets fail this second test - they preach items which are absolutely contrary to what is revealed in the Bible.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/30/2008 10:47:14 PM
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somemormonguy
Posts: 16
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: earthless
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Because of the absolute truth of Scripture that I presented? That's akin to faulting a math teacher for saying 2 + 2 = 4.
You applied them incorrectly. James 2:24, explicitly teaches that faith alone is NOT sufficient for salvation: "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." The Greek phrase ouk ek pistewV monon means "not by faith alone." This is what the Bible teaches: salvation by "faith alone" directly and explicitly contradicts the New Testament, which says that salvation is NOT by faith alone. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17), and if dead, it is clearly not sufficient for salvation. In fact, even Paul states that even if he had "all faith" but lacked charity, he would be nothing (1 Cor. 13:3), and concludes that among faith, hope, and charity, charity is the greatest (1 Cor. 13:13). The idea that faith alone is sufficient is simply not what the Bible teaches. Now show me where I'm wrong.
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No, it's a factual statement. Mormonism is a cult/off-shoot of biblical Christianity. Joseph Smith himself toted such statements himself in laying his foundation for his religion.
Such statements? Like the ones you didn't provide when making your argument? Seriously, not off to a good start.
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Ironic and funny when you consider that many of those posting here are ex-Mormons and some even in high positions of leadership within the LDS.
And yet they STILL are incapable of summarizing my beliefs correctly. And, while reading some of them, it was painfully obvious that some of them were never associated with the mormon church in the first place. Just one of those things to make your argument sound stronger, certainly you've heard of that?
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Great questions and many which, had you read the 58 pages you cited, would see they have been covered.
No they weren't, just as they weren't in your post:
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In addressing the question of apostles and prophets today, we must carefully define our terms.
No we don't. "Apostle" is an anglicized form derived from the Greek apostolos, meaning literally "one who is sent," and connoting an envoy or official messenger, who speaks and acts by the authority of one superior to himself. Period. Don't try to read anymore into it than you have to. That's it.
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Certainly the church today needs church planters, missionaries, or leaders who act as pastors over other pastors. Fortunately, when some people say that the church needs "apostles" today, that's all that they mean. And while the usage of the term "apostle" is not biblical, certainly the church does need such persons.
Apostle is not biblical? Are you kidding?
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Likewise, when some people say that the church needs "prophets" today, they mean that the church needs Spirit-filled leaders who can inspire the church with a vision for its mission, or who can challenge the church to deeper commitment to Christ.
I don't care what people mean to say. When I say we need prophets I mean this:
The word "prophet" comes from the Greek prophetes, which means "inspired teacher." Although neither the Greek term nor its Hebrew equivalent, nabi, initially required the function of foretelling, all prophecy looks to the future. Since the Lord has chosen some of his servants to be foretellers--to disclose, sometimes in specific terms, momentous events that are to occur--the predictive element often overshadows other implications of the word in the minds of some.
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And again, while this many not be the most biblical use of the term "prophet," there can be no doubt that the church does need such persons.
Maybe this is what you meant to say about apostles. Anyhow, then you concede they are necessary? Where are they then?
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On the other hand, if by "apostles" and "prophets" one means Christian leaders of the same kind as the twelve apostles or the apostle Paul, they are clearly mistaken.
There are no church leaders today whose authority cannot be questioned, or through whom new doctrinal revelations are given to the church, or whose teachings must be accepted by all Christians.
That's what I've meant the whole time. See above. You haven't backed up anything in this paragraph from the scriptures. Where Am I mistaken according to the Bible? Why are there no leaders today who receive revelation? Here are my scriptures:
"Despise not prophesyings."
-- Paul, in 1 Thessalonians 5:20
"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city..."
-- Jesus Christ, in Matthew 23:34
"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."
-- Amos 3:7
"no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron" (Hebrews 5:4)
Where does your pastor get his authority by the way?
Other scriptures relating to authority: Tim. 4:14; 2 Tim. 1:6; Mark 13:34; Matt. 10:1; 1 Kings 19:16,19 with 2 Kings 2:12-15; Acts 8:17 and Acts 19:13-16.
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The New Testament teaches that the apostles of Christ were persons to whom Christ appeared after His resurrection and whom He commissioned to be His personal spokesmen (Acts 1:21-26; 5:32; 1 Corinthians. 9:1; 15:8).
Yeah true...
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Ephesians 2:20 and 3:5 teach that the apostles and prophets had foundational offices through which Christ established the church as the newly constituted people of God, a church in which both Jews and Gentiles make up the singular body of Christ.
Yeah...
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Clearly many men today who claim to be apostles have taken upon themselves authority over other people which has not been given to them by God. Additionally, they are making prophetic utterances which they falsely claim to be divinely inspired.
True...
Tests For False Prophets
quote:
The Bible gives us two tests for detecting false prophets:
And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Deuteronomy 18:21-22
The first test for a false prophet is his accuracy. True prophets were 100% accurate. Not 95% or even 99%, but 100%. True prophets were controlled by God, so they never missed. If a prophet missed even one time, that "prophet" was a "false prophet".
Those who claim to be prophets today miss all the time. The amazing thing, however, is that even though they predict things that do not come to pass, they do not lose their following. In the Old Testament they would have lost their life. God so despised false prophets that in the verse prior to our last text, He instituted the death penalty for them.
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deuteronomy 18:20
All true...
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Those within/from the LDS/Mormon church have all failed this test. Some scores of times, that is
Scores of times huh? Like the examples you didn't include in your post...again. Gimme one, just one little example to back that statement up. Please pretty please!!!! Because I got a ton where Joseph got it right. I'm not sure I can cite them though, those rules and all...if I get permission I will be happy to do so.
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There is a second test for false prophets:
If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deuteronomy 13:1-3
In this case, what the false prophet predicts comes to pass, but he is still a false prophet. God will sometimes allow this to test
people to see if they love him with all their heart. The test this time is in the message the prophet gives.
Does it line up with scripture? Does it lead us into truth and following the God of the Bible? Or does it lead us into following after a false god or into ERROR.
Some of the greatest doctrinal heresy today comes from the mouths of those who claim to be prophets. We test these so-called prophets by examining whether or not what they teach lines up with the Bible.
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try (test) the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world 1 John 4:1
It is the doctrine that is taught that is the test of the spirit behind the prophet. The Bible warns us that in the last days, many shall be deceived by evil spirits.
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 1 Timothy 4:1
So then, there are two tests for false prophets. First, a prophet has to be 100% accurate. If they miss even once they are a false prophet. Secondly, a prophet must speak according to sound doctrine. Their message may not contain doctrinal error. It must lead people in the way of truth and after the true God of the Bible.
True...
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All LDS/Mormon prophets fail this second test - they preach items which are absolutely contrary to what is revealed in the Bible.
And yet, nothing to back up the claim...HOW are the teachings of Jospeh Smith contrary to the Bible? Show me. Give me a doctrine, and show me according to the Bible where it's wrong. You've somehow managed to not answer a single question from my list. Anyone else care to try? Remember, back your arguments up from the scriptures.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/31/2008 7:47:05 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: somemormonguy
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ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
When I saw the story yesterday about the death of Mormon president Gordon B. Hinckley, the words of Jesus about the rich man came to mind, "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away..."
Hinckley spent 97 years as a devoutly religious man, all of it wasted. And under his tenure, another 4 million have joined in on the same journey away from God and Truth.
Sad. Very sad.
So you think he will go to hell? Do you know the good things that man did throughout his life? Did you bother to read? Do you even care?...
That you would ask such a question proves your lack of understanding about Jesus Christ, the Gospel, or salvation.
Besides, if one bases his hope of heaven on a lie, as all Mormons do, the only consequence is hell. Unless you are some kind of universalist who thinks all religions lead you to heaven by different means. And to be plain, Mormonism is a false religion.
Today, Hinckley is wishing he could come back to warn Latter Day Sinners deceived by Mormonism not to come where he is.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/31/2008 7:52:19 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: somemormonguy
Gordon B. Hinckley didn't sit in front of a computer all day telling others what disqualified them from being christian, he lived the life of a christian. Maybe something to consider? If your beliefs are so important, what are you doing here? Do what prophetica says and get out there and preach. Or do you think you've done enough by insulting a good man's name?
GB Hinckley never knew what it means to be a Christian. He was a false prophet of a fales religion that pretends to represent Christ.
And if YOU measure Christianity by absence online, then what are YOU doing here, huh? That is such a lame attack...
You have no idea what I do for my Lord outside these forums but let me say again that DOING doesn't save you or anyone else. One of the basic errors of mormonism is the notion that human effort gains any kind of merit towards salvation or heaven.
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RE: Mormonism? - 1/31/2008 8:54:50 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6204
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
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ORIGINAL: somemormonguy
Scores of times huh? Like the examples you didn't include in your post...again. Gimme one, just one little example to back that statement up. Please pretty please!!!!
Here are just a few examples of failed prophecies spoken by Mormon leaders, etc.. And as we both agreed, one false prophecy makes the speaker a false prophet. The following are seven prophecies by Joseph Smith.
These are taken from official Mormon sources - either the LDS scriptures or the History of the Church (HC), a seven volume history published under the authority of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Each are given in context and cited directly from the original source. Where they are known, subsequent historical events relevant to the prophecy are noted.
Prophecy # 1 - The Coming of the Lord
President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. . . . it was the will of God that they should be ordained to the ministry and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh — even fifty six years should wind up the scene. (History of the Church, Vol. 2, page 182).
This prophecy was spoken by Joseph Smith in 1835, and recorded by Oliver Cowdery. The fifty-six years were passed by 1891.
Prophecy # 2 - David W. Patten to go on a mission
Verily, thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto the world. (Doctrine & Covenants 114:1)
This prophecy was made on April 17, 1838. David W. Patten died in October of 1838 and thus never went on a mission the following spring.
Prophecy # 3 - The United States Government to be overthrown in a few years
I prophecy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left for their wickedness in permitting the murder of men, women and children, and the wholesale plunder and extermination of thousands of her citizens to go unpunished (History of the Church, Vol. 5, page 394).
Joseph Smith made this prophecy in May 6, 1843. However, the United States Government did not redress any of the wrongs committed against the Mormons in Missouri, and now over 150 years later, the U.S. Government still stands.
Prophecy # 4 - Congress to be broken up as a government
While discussing the petition to Congress, I prophesied, by virtue of the holy Priesthood vested in me, and in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that, if Congress will not hear our petition and grant us protection, they shall be broken up as a government, and God shall damn them, and there shall be nothing left of them — not even a grease spot. (Millennial Star, Vol. 22, p. 455. See also History of the Church (HC), vol. 6, p. 116, though when this prediction was incorporated into the official history, Mormon Church leaders decided to leave out the "grease spot" part.)
The petition was not heard nor was protection granted (Deseret News, Vol. 1, p. 59). Yet, Congress was never broken up and continues to function to this day. It is interesting that the compilers of History of the Church, added an editorial note in an attempt to soften or explain this prophecy. They state that: "This prediction doubtless has reference to the party in power; to the ‘government’ considered as the administration;" (note, p. 116).
According to the note in HC, this means the Democratic Party, which was in control at the time. However, the prediction is that "Congress shall be broken up as a government" and Congress is made up of representatives from both parties. The Saints were making an appeal to the General Government, not to the Democratic Party, a point made by a summary statement in the left margin beside this prophecy as it is recorded in HC.
Prophecy #5 - Finding Treasure in Salem, Massachusetts
This prophecy is recorded in Doctrine & Covenants Section 111. The introduction to this prophecy, found at the beginning of Section 111 states:
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Salem, Massachusetts, August 6, 1836. HC 2:465-466. At this time the leaders of the LDS Church were heavily in debt due to their labors in the ministry.
1. I, the Lord your God, am not displeased with your coming this journey, notwithstanding your follies.
2. I have much treasure in this city for you, for the benefit of Zion, and many people in this city, whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of Zion, through your instrumentality.
3. Therefore, it is expedient that you should form acquaintance with men in this city, as you shall be led, and as it shall be given you.
4. And it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city into your hands, that you shall have power over it, insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts; and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours.
5. Concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them.
No treasure was ever discovered, nor did Salem ever fell into the hands of the Mormons.
Prophecy #6 - Pestilence, Hail, Famine & Earthquake to Destroy the Wicked
And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nation; pestilence, hail, famine, and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land, to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country.
The people of the Lord, those who have complied with the requirements of the new covenant, have already commenced gathering together to Zion, which is in the state of Missouri; therefore I declare unto you the warning which the Lord has commanded to declare unto this generation, remembering that the eyes of my Maker are upon me, and that to him I am accountable for every word I say, wishing nothing worse to my fellow-men than their eternal salvation; therefore, "Fear God, and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come." Repent ye, repent ye, and embrace the everlasting c | | |
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