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RE: Mormonism? - 8/2/2008 5:22:04 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4468
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I ask them questions and they answer and we discuss the Bible.
I like to bring up any of these topics:
Justification
Propitiation
Imputation
Atonement
I find these topics allow us to discuss the differences between the Mormon Christ and the Christ of the Bible.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/4/2008 4:26:42 PM
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Piff.
Posts: 35
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
I ask them questions and they answer and we discuss the Bible.
I like to bring up any of these topics:
Justification
Propitiation
Imputation
Atonement
I find these topics allow us to discuss the differences between the Mormon Christ and the Christ of the Bible.
Hello,
could you elaborate on the mormon perspective on each of the above referenced topics?
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/4/2008 7:22:20 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 514
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Piff.
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
I ask them questions and they answer and we discuss the Bible.
I like to bring up any of these topics:
Justification
Propitiation
Imputation
Atonement
I find these topics allow us to discuss the differences between the Mormon Christ and the Christ of the Bible.
Hello,
could you elaborate on the mormon perspective on each of the above referenced topics?
Justification: while we christians use the terms "justification" and "atonement" interchangeably (justification is one, if not the central aspect of the atonement) according to LDS doctrine justification is differnent than atonement. Mormons are justified by their obedience to the "gospel principles" of the LDS church, i.e. temple works, tithing, and so on.
Propitiation: propitiation is similar if not identical to atonement, so I this answer will cover both. The Biblical use of atonement refers to the reconciling of lost sinners to the one Holy God by means of faith in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross and His subsequent resurrection (also called salvation). According to LDS doctrine, atonement (salvation) is different than justification. To understand how this works, it is necessary to understand that mormon doctrine makes a distinction between salvation and eternal life. Salvation (atonement) provides a resurrected body for everyone. It doesn't matter what the person believes or does - or what religion he practices - this resurrection is provided for everyone. Without this salvation, our spirits would be doomed to spend eternity in a bodiless state. The atonement (resurrection) is provided through the mormon jesus shedding his blood for us; not on the cross, but when he sweat blood in the Garden of Gethsemene. Mormons consider the cross to be repugnant- a method of capital punishment (which is why their wards and stake houses do not have crosses on their roofs).
Atonement (salvation = resurrection) is different than justification. Justification is the means to eternal life. Eternal life refers to where (and maybe, how, we spend eternity). In Mormon doctrine, everyone goes to one of three levels of heaven. Good, gospel principle obedient members of the LDS church, go to the highest level of heaven. Therefore, where a person spends eternity (the degree of justification) is determined by the level of commitment and obedience (works of the law) a person has and does.
Imputation: Mormons don't believe anything, other than the resurrection, is imputed to us. People are to earn their righteousness before God, and Mormon's hope that their righteousness will develop to the point that the men will eventually become a god of their own planet some day.
I admit I am probably making this more confusing than it really is, but I hope it helps in some way.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/5/2008 11:34:51 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4468
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Piff.
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
I ask them questions and they answer and we discuss the Bible.
I like to bring up any of these topics:
Justification
Propitiation
Imputation
Atonement
I find these topics allow us to discuss the differences between the Mormon Christ and the Christ of the Bible.
Hello,
could you elaborate on the mormon perspective on each of the above referenced topics?
Hi Piff.
Mushhead answered the question very well! Good post. Mushhead has a superior understanding of mormon terminology!
All of these terms point to the correct Biblical doctrine on Christ, and therefore illuminate the Biblical errors in mormon theology regarding salvation in Christ.
I'll share with you a bit from the scriptures on these topics---
Justification: In mormon theology, as Mushhead pointed out, justification is quite different from the Biblical definition.
They will often use this passage from their writings: 2 Nephi 25: 23 " For we labor diligently to write, to persuade out children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”
See that? They think they are saved by grace, after they have done all that they can do. Meaning, they do all they can, and Christ makes up the difference. [yet even their saved means something different than the scriptural understanding!]
The problem with this is that Romans teaches us that we are justified apart from our works, by faith alone in Christ. By seeking to be justified by their works at all, they are bringing damnation upon themselves.
Romans 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Ro 3:20a Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:4-5 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Propitiation: Christ actually takes the wrath of God for sin upon Himself on the cross, becoming the propitiation for our sin. Those who do not believe on Christ alone for their salvation still have God’s wrath upon them and stand condemned.
2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Hebrews 2:17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Joh 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
Imputation: On the cross, Christ takes the punishment for our sin upon Himself, and as we believe on Christ for our salvation, His righteousness is imputed to us so that we might be credited with His righteousness. So, according to scripture, Christ not only took God’s wrath for our sin, but He also imputes to us His righteousness, that we might not only be clean from sin, but also stand in righteousness before God (Christ’s righteousness).
2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Romans 4:23-25 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
Atonement: Scripturally, only Christ is qualified to atone for our sin, because only He is unblemished. We are not in any way qualified to atone for our sin. When mormons seek to be right with God by their works, believing that Christ makes up the difference, they are in essence stating that Christ’s blood shed on the cross is not completely sufficient to atone for our sin, and that their works are sufficient to atone in part for their sin.
1 Peter 1:18-19 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
Mushhead, please feel free to clarify or correct anything I've stated...
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/5/2008 11:37:53 AM
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Piff.
Posts: 35
Joined: 7/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piff.
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
I ask them questions and they answer and we discuss the Bible.
I like to bring up any of these topics:
Justification
Propitiation
Imputation
Atonement
I find these topics allow us to discuss the differences between the Mormon Christ and the Christ of the Bible.
Hello,
could you elaborate on the mormon perspective on each of the above referenced topics?
Justification: while we christians use the terms "justification" and "atonement" interchangeably (justification is one, if not the central aspect of the atonement) according to LDS doctrine justification is differnent than atonement. Mormons are justified by their obedience to the "gospel principles" of the LDS church, i.e. temple works, tithing, and so on.
Propitiation: propitiation is similar if not identical to atonement, so I this answer will cover both. The Biblical use of atonement refers to the reconciling of lost sinners to the one Holy God by means of faith in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross and His subsequent resurrection (also called salvation). According to LDS doctrine, atonement (salvation) is different than justification. To understand how this works, it is necessary to understand that mormon doctrine makes a distinction between salvation and eternal life. Salvation (atonement) provides a resurrected body for everyone. It doesn't matter what the person believes or does - or what religion he practices - this resurrection is provided for everyone. Without this salvation, our spirits would be doomed to spend eternity in a bodiless state. The atonement (resurrection) is provided through the mormon jesus shedding his blood for us; not on the cross, but when he sweat blood in the Garden of Gethsemene. Mormons consider the cross to be repugnant- a method of capital punishment (which is why their wards and stake houses do not have crosses on their roofs).
Atonement (salvation = resurrection) is different than justification. Justification is the means to eternal life. Eternal life refers to where (and maybe, how, we spend eternity). In Mormon doctrine, everyone goes to one of three levels of heaven. Good, gospel principle obedient members of the LDS church, go to the highest level of heaven. Therefore, where a person spends eternity (the degree of justification) is determined by the level of commitment and obedience (works of the law) a person has and does.
Imputation: Mormons don't believe anything, other than the resurrection, is imputed to us. People are to earn their righteousness before God, and Mormon's hope that their righteousness will develop to the point that the men will eventually become a god of their own planet some day.
I admit I am probably making this more confusing than it really is, but I hope it helps in some way.
Thanks for the reply. do you know where I can find information on the bolded print?
Also the use of the term "Mormon Jesus" has confused me a bit, do they actually teach a completely different Jesus or do they just teach a different interpretation of the Biblical Jesus?
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/5/2008 11:45:08 AM
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Piff.
Posts: 35
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haha, yes to which one?
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/5/2008 11:46:12 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4468
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Here is some helpful information on the mormon understanding of atonement.
quote:
Both Christians and Mormons speak of Christ's atonement, but the atonement means different things to both parties. Christians have looked to the cross of Calvary as the place where this grand act of reconciliation took place; Mormonism, on the other hand, has emphasized the Garden of Gethsemane.
On page fourteen of his book, "Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson," the thirteenth president of the LDS Church stated it was in the Garden of Gethsemane that Christ "suffered as only as God would suffer, bearing our griefs, carrying our sorrows, being wounded for our transgressions, voluntarily submitting Himself to the iniquity of us all, just as Isaiah prophesied."
He further stated on that same page: "It was in Gethsemane that Jesus took on Himself the sins of the world, in Gethsemane that His pain was equivalent to the cumulative burden of all men, in Gethsemane that He descended below all things so that all could repent and come to Him" (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pg.15).
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/5/2008 11:47:27 AM
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crankius
Posts: 4468
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Piff.
haha, yes to which one?
Both. By straying from the Biblical Christ, they are teaching a different Jesus.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/5/2008 11:53:31 AM
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Piff.
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Joined: 7/24/2008
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right... well, what i was referring to by "a different Jesus" was more of a physical thing.
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/5/2008 12:13:55 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4468
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Yes, a different Jesus. Their Jesus was with the spirit people, and a brother of satan, before he came to earth. This is in their book of Moses.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/5/2008 12:16:19 PM
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Piff.
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hmm... interesting.
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/5/2008 2:50:41 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 514
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From: Kearns
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quote:
Yes, a different Jesus. Their Jesus was with the spirit people, and a brother of satan, before he came to earth. This is in their book of Moses.
Piff,
The mormons believe that god the father is one of many gods who was once a man like us. Though they don't speculate on the details, they believe this god had a mother and father and lived a life very similar to ours. He committed sin, needed redemption from his planet's savior, followed the gospel priniciples of his god's church. He eventually suffered physical death, was resurrected, and continued to progress in righteousness until he qualified to be the god of this planet. They believe the god the father is an exalted man eternally existing in his physically resurrected body, he and his wife or wives procreated in the spirit realm and conceived many spirit children. These spirit children are just that, spirit; they do not have physical bodies. We are those children.
According to mormon doctrine, we existed as the spirit children of the father in something the mormon's refer to as "the pre-existance." Jesus was the first born of all the spirit children. In that sense, the mormon's believe that their jesus is our eldest brother. Lucifer was another of the spirit children. Mormon doctrine does not reveal if lucifer was the second born or if he came much later. Therefore, jesus and lucifer are brothers.
The mormons teach that the goal of our existance is to progress in knowledge and wisdom. This development is limited without the experience of a physical body. So God, chose or created a planet, and then made physical bodies for his children to inhabit. In this scenerio, sin is essential. Mormon's teach that Satan was not lying to Eve in the Garden, instead he was doing God's bidding. They also teach that before the father started inhabiting the earth with his children, a council was convene to determine the best form of redemption. Lucifer suggested a plan where he came as savior and forced people to repent and obey; Jesus offered the plan the mormon's currently teach. Obviously, the father rejected lucifer's plan, which caused lucifer to rebel - convincing a third of the spirit children to follow him.
Understanding all that, the mormon's use Christian terminology, but that have utterly unBiblical defintions:
Trinity: The Biblical definition of this term is: one and only one God who simeoultaneously exists in three distinct persons - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Also described as three in one.
Mormon's teach that god is triune. However, instead of one god that exists in three persons, they believe that the members of the godhead are three seperate individuals (as seperate as any three people) who are only a trinity because of their shared agenda.
Jesus: The Bible says that Jesus is God; Jesus is eternal without beginning or ending of days; therefore Jesus always existed as God and will always be God.
Mormon's teach Jesus is not eternal. He was created (or maybe better said, he was conceived by the father and his wife) and only later earned the position of god.
Virgin Birth: The Bible teaches that Mary was a virgin before and after Jesus was concieved. He was born to a virgin. The Holy Spirit supernaturally caused Mary to become pregnant.
Mormon's also teach the virgin birth. Their doctrine more commonly refers to this event as the "immaculant conception" because they teach that jesus was concieved when the father (who is an exalted man in a resurrected, but physical body) had physical relations with Mary. There is much to explain about this teaching (many mormon's are unaware of it), but I will put that off for another time.
As you can see from this description of their doctrine, as well as the previous description of how and where their jesus provided atonement, there is little the mormon jesus has in common with the historical jesus other than their names.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/5/2008 3:44:02 PM
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davemiller7
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Excellent commentary, mushhead and crankius. You're 100% right, as I had learned it.
-Dave
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/5/2008 6:23:53 PM
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Piff.
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Thanks for the response mushhead. Very interesting read.
Could you point me to where I can find these teachings?
If you don't mind my asking, were you affiliated with their church once upon a time?
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/5/2008 6:50:40 PM
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crankius
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Piff,
If you don't mind my asking, why are you so interested in the false mormon theology?
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/5/2008 7:00:08 PM
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Piff.
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I don't mind at all... because it's interesting to me.
Not to disrespect anyone, but I'm the type of person that likes to see things for themselves... which is why I keep asking for pointers on where I can look to find this information.
Judging by the amount of responses this thread has gotten so far, I'd say I'm not the only one interested in this topic.
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/5/2008 7:18:45 PM
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crankius
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The Mormon Research Ministry site I linked earlier has excellent information.
Here is a direct link to the newest version of the book of mormon, and here is a link to selections from their books of Moses and Abraham.
I recommend that you be well-versed in your Bible.
--Edit to add a couple more links.
< Message edited by crankius -- 8/6/2008 12:24:44 AM >
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/5/2008 7:21:17 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 514
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
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quote:
ORIGINAL: landabee
Mushhead, thank you! You rock. 
You just gave me another post to add to my files for reference.
Your explanation was much more succinct than any I could formulate.
God bless.
Hey landabee; Right back at ya! It's good to see you are still hangin around these parts.
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
Hi Piff...
I'll share with you a bit from the scriptures on these topics---
Hey crankius! Good job! Your presentationt was a well thought out and understandable.
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Excellent commentary, mushhead and crankius. You're 100% right, as I had learned it.
Praise the Lord! and also thank you.
< Message edited by mushhead -- 8/5/2008 7:37:08 PM >
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/5/2008 7:35:25 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 514
Joined: 5/29/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Piff.
Thanks for the response mushhead. Very interesting read.
Could you point me to where I can find these teachings?
If you don't mind my asking, were you affiliated with their church once upon a time?
Piff,
I normally recite chapter and verse when providing this information, however I've been sick for more than a month and am just now getting back on my feet. I didn't provide sources for the info because I just didn't have the energy to walk down the stairs to get it. Please be patient with me, and I will have that for you tomorrow or the next day, or you can look back through some of the previous 67 pages on this thread; you will find them scattered throughout.
Sorry that I cannot direct you to specific posts.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/6/2008 10:46:21 AM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1054
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Glad to hear you're on the mend. I'll be praying that The Good Lord will continue to heal and bless you.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piff.
Thanks for the response mushhead. Very interesting read.
Could you point me to where I can find these teachings?
If you don't mind my asking, were you affiliated with their church once upon a time?
Piff,
I normally recite chapter and verse when providing this information, however I've been sick for more than a month and am just now getting back on my feet. I didn't provide sources for the info because I just didn't have the energy to walk down the stairs to get it. Please be patient with me, and I will have that for you tomorrow or the next day, or you can look back through some of the previous 67 pages on this thread; you will find them scattered throughout.
Sorry that I cannot direct you to specific posts.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/16/2008 7:58:36 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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The question asked on another thread was, "Because of the 'book of Mormon' will they be left behind?"
People aren't saved or condemned because of having read the Book of Mormon. And most of what Mormons believe is not in the Book of Mormon. However, one should be aware of the Book of Mormon's criticism of the Bible:
24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.
25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.
26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.
27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.
28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.
29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them. (Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13: 24-29)
Nephi testified that the Bible once “contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record” and that “after [the words] go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away” (1 Nephi 13:24, 26).
Boyd K. Packer, “Who Is Jesus Christ?,” Ensign, Mar 2008, 12–19
The Book of Mormon is the “keystone” of our religion, and the Doctrine and Covenants is the capstone, with continuing latter-day revelation. The Lord has placed His stamp of approval on both the keystone and the capstone.
Ezra Taft Benson, “The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants,” Ensign, May 1987, p. 83 and Liahona, Jan 2005, p. 8
The teachings of Mormonism do not line up with the Bible.
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/22/2008 1:20:09 AM
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Thessa
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I spoke to a Mormon online and she had some really different beliefs. She thought that if a person was unsaved and a non-believer then when they died they still got a second chance to go to Heaven...didnt make any sense at all. I asked her where she got that idea and wanted her to post a verse from her bible that said that and she couldnt do it. It made me very wary of her beliefs and faith from that moment.
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RE: Mormonism? - 8/22/2008 1:17:15 PM
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davemiller7
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They teach that after a person dies, his spirit is ministered to and taught in the afterlife. From that, one is given another chance. I can't remember where it is written, but that's essentially what they teach.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: Thessa
I spoke to a Mormon online and she had some really different beliefs. She thought that if a person was unsaved and a non-believer then when they died they still got a second chance to go to Heaven...didnt make any sense at all. I asked her where she got that idea and wanted her to post a verse from her bible that said that and she couldnt do it. It made me very wary of her beliefs and faith from that moment.
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-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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