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RE: 153 fish - 7/27/2008 12:23:07 PM
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rcjones
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Isn't it a bit ironic that the passage you would use to say that every word doesn't have meaning, is one that teaches that we should live by every word...
There is a God!
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: 153 fish - 7/27/2008 1:15:56 PM
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MrFribbles
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rcjones, you're straying from the topic of this thread. As I've said elsewhere, if you want to discuss your shadows, start a thread on it.
I never said the number 153 had no meaning. I just believe that meaning is a literal number, not some meaning hidden in the language somehow.
quote:
"Bob, you know, I really didn't mean for you to think that you should live by every word that proceeds from my mouth by contemplating the meaning of 153 fish. There were just 153 fish. I think I'll throw you into hell for that."
I never suggested that believing in a hidden meaning of the number 153 fish would condemn anyone. If one's salvation depended on having a 100% accurate understanding of Scripture, then we'd all be condemned.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: 153 fish - 7/27/2008 1:52:14 PM
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eschatologist
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Personnally I don't think the number 153 has any particular significant meaning, except in the sense that 153 large fish was probably an extraordinary large amount of fish to catch in a single casting of the net. To put it in modern terms he was merely saying, '"Wow! We caught 153 large fish in a single casting of the net. That's never happened before! And the net didn't even break! It's a miracle!"
When Jesus first called His disciples at the beginning of His ministry on earth He told them, "Follow me and I will make you fishers of men." So, if there is any symbolic significance of the large amount of fish that they caught, I believe it means that this large catch is symbolic of the multitudes of people who will eventually be saved and "caught" into the kingdom of God through the Apostle's preaching and witnessing and testimony. The fact that the net did not break is symbolic of the fact that once people are saved and have entered the kingdom of God through Faith in Jesus, they cannot and will not be lost. As Jesus said in John 6: "This is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all whom He hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."(John 6:39) Jesus, telling His disciples to "come and dine" giving them bread and some fish to eat is symbolic of how the Lord will always supply all of their needs. They don't have to go out and work hard by spending all of their time fishing, but if they will seek first the kingdom of God and His rightousness by preaching the Gospel to every creature then the Lord will always be with them, taking care of them and supplying their needs. One of the ways the Lord will supply their needs is through the "fish" (people) that they "catch" (The ones who get saved through their witness). As it says in the book of Acts when the early church was just getting started: "Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, and laid them down at the Apostle's feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need." (Acts 4:34-35) And as the Apostle Paul said, "If we have sown unto you spiritual things is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?" This is ordained of God that those who minister the spiritual riches of the Kingdom of God should be helped by those whom they minister unto. "Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the Gospel should live of (or off) the Gospel. (ICorinthians 9:11 and 14)
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RE: 153 fish - 7/27/2008 6:38:28 PM
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rcjones
Posts: 193
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quote:
Do you believe every number in Scripture has a special meaning? There are some peculiarly accurate ones in the Old Testament, such as the lists in the construction of the Tabernacle, and a few of the censuses.
Hmm... no 153 fish there, but if I respond to it I am off topic? Curious logic you have there.
quote:
I never suggested that believing in a hidden meaning of the number 153 fish would condemn anyone. If one's salvation depended on having a 100% accurate understanding of Scripture, then we'd all be condemned.
Since you take time to distance yourself from obvious hyperbole, can we assume that you do not distance yourself from all the other "Do you believes?"
Can you specify which ones you do not agree with?
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: 153 fish - 7/27/2008 7:58:10 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1884
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quote:
Do you believe that every law has meaning?
Yes.
quote:
Since we're not under the law, we can do without them...
Just because we are no longer required to follow them does not mean they are meaningless.
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Do you believe that every narrative history of the kings has meaning?
Yes.
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They're just histories of ancient civilizations, they don't have to have meaning...
This is somewhat unusual. What story of history, biblical or not, has no meaning?
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Do you believe that every Psalm has meaning?
Yes.
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They're just songs by an old king, they don't apply to us...
First, they're by multiple people. Second, they don't apply in exactly the same way (we do not, for instance, go up to the literal Jerusalem to worship God anymore as the Psalms of Ascent describe), but by understanding the heart intent of the original writers, we can learn of the timeless truths they teach.
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Do you believe that every Proverb has meaning?
Yes.
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They're so cryptic and some contradictory that God can't expect us to understand...
I'm curious as to which ones you find cryptic and contradictory.
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Do you believe that every story in the scripture has meaning?
Yes.
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There are some peculiar ones in Judges we could do without...
Not at all. I have no problem with any story in Judges, and I don't have to find some hidden shadow to smooth over the rough edges.
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Do you believe the every genealogy in scripture has meaning?
Yes.
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There are some awfully lengthy boring ones we can do without...
Without a proper understanding of context and an ability to keep the names straight, you'd be right.
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Do you believe that every parable has meaning?
Yes.
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There are some he didn't explain, so obviously he didn't want us to understand...
But He did explain some of them, which gives us principles on how to interpret the ones He did not.
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Do you believe that every word in scripture has meaning?
Yes.
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God sure seemed to repeat Himself and put a lot of meaningless stuff in there...
Meaningless? Where have I suggested ANYTHING in Scripture is meaningless?
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Do you believe that every jot and tittle in scripture has meaning?
Yes.
quote:
Surely God doesn't care about dotting i's and crossing t's, we can dump a bunch of them..
There's a big difference between appreciating the little things, and finding secret coded shadow meanings.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: 153 fish - 7/27/2008 11:01:49 PM
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rcjones
Posts: 193
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Since you know the context of the OP is speaking about an additional meaning beyond the number 153, apparently you do not wish to be completely forthright in your answers having redefined the word 'meaning' in the context of the thread so that now you can say "Yes. It has meaning". The whole while you have been denying it. The meaning 153 has in your estimation is 153. So the proper answer in context is "No. It has no meaning."
Presumably, we cannot trust your other answers in the context of the thread, but must read them as denials of any meaning beyond the literal-historical.
The literal meaning is that there were a bunch of fish. The shadow says that life in Christ is living by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
It must be obvious to the casual observer that the literal is much superior and that the shadow is "nonsense", "dangerous", "Satanic lies", Gnosticism" etc. as implied by the posts of those who deny additional meaning.
You win. The rest of us bow to your wisdom and will stop reading the Bible to see Christ. We'll probably go fishing.
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: 153 fish - 7/27/2008 11:14:41 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
The meaning 153 has in your estimation is 153. So the proper answer in context is "No. It has no meaning."
Correction: No additional meaning. There certainly is a powerful meaning. This is yet another miracle of Christ, and no miracle is without meaning.
quote:
Presumably, we cannot trust your other answers in the context of the thread, but must read them as denials of any meaning beyond the literal-historical.
What do you mean you cannot trust my answers? Just because they don't match up with your interpretation?
But yes, I do go by a literal-historical method of interpretation, taking into account the style of literature of any given passage.
quote:
The literal meaning is that there were a bunch of fish. The shadow says that life in Christ is living by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
The literal meaning is that we need Christ, for without Him our efforts are meaningless. But when we trust in Him, even after much fruitless striving, our efforts yield amazing results.
quote:
You win. The rest of us bow to your wisdom and will stop reading the Bible to see Christ. We'll probably go fishing.
How in the world are you getting "you can't see Christ in the Bible" from my posts?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: 153 fish - 7/27/2008 11:32:02 PM
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rcjones
Posts: 193
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quote:
The literal meaning is that we need Christ, for without Him our efforts are meaningless. But when we trust in Him, even after much fruitless striving, our efforts yield amazing results.
Lets see, they fished all night and came up fishless, and you equate 'fish' to 'meaning' in order to get 'meaningless'. Do you have a scripture to back that up?
Where do you get this from the text? If we apply your meaning to the text, then fishermen can't catch anything unless they fish on the side of the boat Jesus said to fish on. Anything else is placing meaning into the text that isn't there.
How do you reconcile your interpretation with the fact that they quit fishing rather than go on and be successful fishermen, there is no indication they even sold their catch. What good are great results if they are wasted on the beach? Pater and Jesus walked away from them.
Why did Peter have to drag them onshore when Jesus already had miraculously provided fish? Couldn't we just as easily decide that the big catch was a waste of effort since Jesus had already provided?
Your interpretation is pure invention but you don't recognize it because you are so accustomed to it. Every step of the shadow has scripture to back it up that I eluded to and can be found by anyone.
If you were true to your literalism you would merely say they went fishing, didn't catch anything, then they caught a lot. It has no additional meaning. It is just a fishing story.
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: 153 fish - 7/27/2008 11:41:14 PM
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MrFribbles
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The literal-historical method does not say, "read the passage and leave it at that." You're getting hung up on the literal, and forgetting the historical.
John wrote his gospel to teach us about Christ - that much is obvious from John 1:1!
Jesus not only taught in parables, His miracles also held a special meaning. You'll notice He didn't go around flying, or shooting fireworks from His fingertips. Those actions could have also shown His divinity, but what did He do? He healed, He raised the dead, He provided for our needs - physical manifestations of how He works in our lives now.
When Jesus met His disciples on a level they all knew - the working environment where they were - He showed them a very real truth. Yes, He literally helped them catch 153, but through understanding the historic context of John's writing, we see that in doing so, after their fruitless efforts without Him, they were able to do great things with Him - and from that, we as Christians reading John's writing can understand that we, too, are fruitless without Christ, but fruitful through Him.
Now, I would like an answer to my question, which I will repeat -
How in the world are you getting "you can't see Christ in the Bible" from my posts?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: 153 fish - 7/27/2008 11:45:18 PM
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rcjones
Posts: 193
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quote:
Now, I would like an answer to my question, which I will repeat -
How in the world are you getting "you can't see Christ in the Bible" from my posts?
You keep nipping at the heels of anyone who is looking for him there, and just doesn't happen to agree with your literal only methodology.
What would possibly motivate you to try to dissuade people from searching the scriptures and meditating upon them?
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: 153 fish - 7/28/2008 12:04:37 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1884
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
You keep nipping at the heels of anyone who is looking for him there, and just doesn't happen to agree with your literal only methodology.
You're doing it again, friend. I'm not literal-only. I'm literal-historical.
quote:
What would possibly motivate you to try to dissuade people from searching the scriptures and meditating upon them?
Just because someone is searching and meditating on Scripture does not mean they are doing so properly.
If I may give an example - let's say you see someone about to use a cheese grater as a razor to shave. Obviously, this would cause their face (or legs) harm. Would you step in and try to dissuade them from this course of action?
In the same way, when I see someone taking God's word and interpreting it in a way I feel He did not mean for it to be, I do my best to warn my brothers and sisters away from this course of action. I don't want you getting hurt.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: 153 fish - 7/28/2008 12:27:38 AM
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rcjones
Posts: 193
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quote:
Just because someone is searching and meditating on Scripture does not mean they are doing so properly.
If I may give an example - let's say you see someone about to use a cheese grater as a razor to shave. Obviously, this would cause their face (or legs) harm. Would you step in and try to dissuade them from this course of action?
In the same way, when I see someone taking God's word and interpreting it in a way I feel He did not mean for it to be, I do my best to warn my brothers and sisters away from this course of action. I don't want you getting hurt.
And what makes you so sure that your way is the "proper" way? Longnekker didn't die for his hermeneutic, Klein, Bloomberg and Hubbard didn't walk with Jesus. The Chicago Inquisition wasn't divinely appointed.
God is quite capable of leading His people in His word. Remember "Ask, Seek, Knock"? What did God do before you were born to protect us all?
The fact is that you have continually refused to address the method itself, and have, based on your presupposition that there is no additional meaning, nipped at everyone that believes otherwise.
In doing so you deny 1200 - 1600 years of church history, 3/4 of the reformers, current Eastern Orthodoxy, and Catholicism and the methods of the NT authors. You would denigrate modern preachers such as C.E. Macintosh, and M.R. DeHaan.
You are certainly welcome to your rather narrow belief.
Now it is your turn to answer directly, since you have previously refused to do so.
God says he speaks in riddles. Lets hear how many ways you can deny it.
Nu 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches <02420>; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
Ps 49:4 I will incline mine ear to a parable: I will open my dark saying <02420> upon the harp.
Ps 78:2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings <02420> of old:
Pr 1:6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings <02420>.
Eze 17:2 Son of man, put forth a riddle <02420>, and speak a parable unto the house of Israel;
Da 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences <02420>, shall stand up.
Pr 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
You refused to answer this before:
Here are the hermeneutic rules I play by. Lets see you find fault:
1. Since God has said that not a jot or tittle will pass away, until one knows why each jot and tittle is there, a complete understanding has not been derived. (This keeps us humble)
2. Since man shall live "..by every word", a doctrine is not sound until it sums up and includes all that God has said about it. (This keeps us searching)
3. Since every word must be established by two or three witnesses, every shadow must have at least two supporting scripture witnesses. (This keeps us rigorous in methodology)
4. Since God's word is established forever, a shadow means the same thing everywhere is it used. So, since a donkey is a shadow of a prophet, everywhere there is a donkey, it is a shadow of a prophet. This rule alone makes the shadows humanly impossible to fabricate. (This keeps us an awe)
5. The riddle of Samson tells us Christ is the answer to all the riddles. If the shadow doesn't look like Christ, it isn't a good shadow. (This keeps us focussed)
6. And since we are to "let everyman be a liar and God be true", outside references are not required to solve the riddles and see the shadows. The Bible interprets the Bible (This keeps us devoted)
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: 153 fish - 7/28/2008 12:31:57 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1884
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
And what makes you so sure that your way is the "proper" way?
Friend, this is getting more than a little off-topic. If you wish to discuss your shadows, start a thread on the subject.
I may point out that you've demonstrated an equally poor understanding of my method, so please don't go after my speck while ignoring your log.
But unless you wish to return to the subject of the 153 fish, I will not continue this discussion here.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: 153 fish - 7/28/2008 1:03:14 AM
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rcjones
Posts: 193
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quote:
Just because someone is searching and meditating on Scripture does not mean they are doing so properly.
...when I see someone taking God's word and interpreting it in a way I feel He did not mean for it to be, I do my best to warn my brothers and sisters away from this course of action. I don't want you getting hurt.
quote:
Friend, this is getting more than a little off-topic.
Not only are you the champion of the literalist Inquisition, but of OP enforcement as well.
This is perfectly on topic.. The topic is discerning an additional meaning to 153 fish. These are the foundation scriptures that justify looking for riddles, and the hermeneutic rules I play by to find the additional meaning to 153 fish.
So rather than simply asserting they do not exist in the face of a plausible example, demonstrate the fault. You have implied the methods could hurt people. Now please back up your claim and show how someone will get hurt with the shadow interpretation. Or retract it.
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: 153 fish - 7/28/2008 1:15:17 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1884
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
This is perfectly on topic
No, it's not. What you are asking for is not on the topic of the 153 fish - it is on the topic of how you reached the conclusion you did about the 153 fish. We know that you use your shadow method. This thread is not about that.
I cannot refute your method on here without straying from the topic, I can only refute your conclusions.
Now, in an effort to get back on topic - is there anything wrong with my conclusions?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: 153 fish - 7/28/2008 1:20:25 AM
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PeterD
Posts: 413
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John 21:6,8,10-11
6 He said to them, "Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some." So they cast it, and now they were not able to haul it in, because of the quantity of fish.
8The other disciples came in the boat, dragging the net full of fish, for they were not far from the land, but about a hundred yards off.
10Jesus said to them, "Bring some of the fish that you have just caught." 11So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled the net ashore, full of large fish, 153 of them. And although there were so many, the net was not torn.
1. and now they were not able to haul it in, because of the quantity of fish.
2. The other disciples came in the boat, dragging the net full of fish,
3. So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled the net ashore, full of large fish, 153 of them.
They were not able to haul it in (group effort)
The other disciples came in the boat, dragging (group effort)
Simon Peter went aboard and hauled the net ashore (one man made the effort and dragged 153 large fish to the Lord)
Now if the others had trouble together why did Simon Peter not have trouble dragging the fish net to the Lord?
If each large fish weighed an average of 10 pounds times 153 that would be 1530 pounds plus the water logged net that Simon Peter went aboard and hauled the net ashore, full of large fish, 153 of them. And although there were so many, the net was not torn!!!
Peter was strong in the Lord, I wonder if it had to do with the literal weight?
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/arthackbrd08.htm
Peter
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RE: 153 fish - 7/28/2008 1:41:49 AM
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rcjones
Posts: 193
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quote:
Now, in an effort to get back on topic - is there anything wrong with my conclusions?
Your conclusion is that 153 fish is 153 fish. Everything else is off topic.
Your invented "meaning" for the passage is fine as far as invented meanings go because it adheres to the general intent of scripture. You seem to be unable to say the same about the conclusion of the shadows. Neither can you show how the shadow conclusion is dangerous. Therefor you have born false witness. I would appreciate it if you would cease and desist from implying that the shadows are dangerous.
Furthermore, you can no more justify your answer than someone who chooses to say that all their efforts were vain because Jesus already miraculously provided fish before they came ashore.
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: 153 fish - 7/28/2008 2:25:36 AM
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MrFribbles
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All right. We'll play things your way. Here's my take on your interpretation of this passage. While I feel it is largely inaccurate, most of it is not dangerous. However, some of your methods and conclusions I feel could be dangerous.
quote:
. Verse 21:14 calls out attention to this being the third time Jesus revealed himself.
Or it could explain the previous verse, explaining why none of them questioned Jesus about who He was.
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The first time he revealed himself, though he showed himself, He primarily spoke to them, and they heard. The second time you will find more of a focus on the word "see". The third encounter is the "life" encounter.
This is pulled completely out of the air. Seeing was a major part of each encounter, as was hearing. And if you don't see a "life" encounter in Jesus' instructions regarding the Holy Spirit, or the intense reaction in Mary, then I don't know what is a "life" encounter.
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Tiberias means 'river-God'.
No, it means from the Tiber, as river-god, lower-case g. It has nothing to do with the true God in its name.
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Since 'water' is a shadow of the word, and Christ is the Word.
There is a difference between how John uses o logos to describe Christ as the Word, and the word of God. Jesus is not the Bible. word = Bible, Word = Christ. The two are not interchangeable.
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Seven disciples were together. Seven is the number of the complete revelation of God in heaven and on earth and they represent all of the disciples in typology of their mission (to reveal Christ as God) as well as by quorum.
Nowhere in Scripture is the number 7 given this meaning. In fact, nowhere in Scripture is any number given meaning except 666, which is the number of man (or a man). Adding meaning to numbers in this manner is dangerous.
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Of the seven we have named Simon Peter meaning "heard the Rock"
No, it just means Rock. Nothing about heard in the meaning at all.
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since God is called a Rock and he heard that Jesus was the Son of God.
Jesus never says that Peter's new name has anything to do with God also being called a rock. He simply names him Petros.
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They have 'heard' and 'seen' Christ, but they still do not 'live' Christ, and decide to go fishing.
And they continued not really living Christ until the day of Pentecost.
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This is what they were doing before meeting Jesus. They have 'returned to their vomit'.
I suppose Paul becoming a tentmaker again was him returning to his vomit, too? Just because they worked doesn't mean they were sinning.
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When Noah enters the ark, it symbolizes death, and they have chosen death as they fish in the dark. They have been judged already because men love the dark. Working in the dark is a fruitless endeavor.
Or maybe it was much more bearable to work at night, when it was cool, than to work in the heat of the day. There could have just been a practical, cultural explanation for this.
quote:
When the morning was come, the "Dayspring" was standing on the "rushing salt". But the disciples didn't know him. Hearing and seeing is insufficient to know Christ. We must have his life in us. They didn't know him.
I don't see where you're getting "rushing salt" from. Christ is not called "Dayspring" by John.
Also, John recognized him fairly quickly. It could be that, after working all night, they were not at the top of their game, and being 100 yards from shore, it can be hard to recognize anyone.
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Then he calls them children because He is calling them into his life.
Or because He is their master, and He is their disciples. Nowhere does Christ use the term "new life" in this address.
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He asks them if they have meat, or anything to eat with bread. And they answered No. Man does not live by bread alone.
He doesn't ask them anything about bread. Bread does not show up in this passage until later.
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And though they had the Spirit breathed upon them, they had not yet become fruitful... they were fishing. The evidence of life is fruitfulness.
They did not have the Spirit breathed on them. They had Christ breath on them, and He told them to receive the Holy Spirit. However, they clearly were not indwelt by the Spirit at that point, or the Pentecost narrative makes no sense.
quote:
Since goats go to the left and sheep to the right, the left side is the earthly side and the right side the heavenly side. They had apparently been fishing on the left side all night. Jesus reminds them of his initial call upon their lives by saying, cast the net on the right side.
Finally, justification for discriminating against left-handed people! Taken to its logical conclusion, your method of interpretation must reach this end.
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In verse 4 it said "they did not lay hands on" the hands symbolize our work, just as the disciples had worked in the flesh all night.
It does? Where?
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But now he says to 'cast' the net, that is to toss it without caring where it lands. Christ is responsible for the results of his net. It s the job of the disciples not to target the gospel to this or that group, but to cast it not caring where it lands... preach it to all people.
They didn't have much room for casting. The nets were not that maneuverable. While I haven't done much extra-biblical Greek research, I would feel comfortable guessing that ballo is the common word used by fisherman, and that there isn't another appropriate word to describe the action of throwing one's net, which makes your point here fairly moot.
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When converting numbers, multiplication is addition, since God says to multiply and be fruitful
You cannot pick and choose random phrases from Scripture like this! It is exceedingly dangerous! The be fruitful and multiply is clearly talking about bearing children!
Using this style of Bible interpretation, I could easily say stealing is OK (Let those who steal, steal), and that there is no God. Both phrases are found in Scripture, and if we can pull things out from wherever we want, and apply them however we want, then hey! Go for it, right?
rcjones, don't you see what you've done here? You've taken a passage from Genesis which has a very clear meaning, and made it apply to math in a number of fish in the gospel of John! There is no precedent for this. It is not accurate.
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144 are for 2/3's of the children of Abraham. His children are called the dust of the earth, sand of the sea, and stars in the sky. The dust of the earth have no water:word of God and do not inherit the kingdom of Heaven. The sands of the sea are those who were near the water and washed by it. This is Israel represented by the twelve sons who were fruitful. The stars are the church represented by the twelve disciples who begat spiritual children. The remaining nine fishes are for God in the fellowship meal. Each person of the Godhead gets three, since each is fully God.
What about the angels? They'll be judged too.
Abraham is promised numerous descendants, and God uses examples of numerous, uncountable things. Nowhere does He imply a distinction between those things on a spiritual level.
What's more, Christ never commands the fish to be split up in the way you describe. I prefer to stick with what's in Scripture, not what we conjecture about it.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: 153 fish - 7/28/2008 3:03:46 AM
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PeterD
Posts: 413
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
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Or since Jesus sent only 153 large fish not small or medium but large, why?
For Jesus new what Simon Peter would do and what the others struggled to do together.
Simon Peter went aboard and hauled the net ashore, full of large fish, 153 of them.
The Lord sent 153 fish into Peters care with the help of the other disciples.
Simon Peter Loved the Lord and brought everything (fish and net) to Him!
Again Jesus focused on Simon Peter by saying, "Feed my sheep." How many sheep, 153 or more. Simon Peter hauled to the Lord a large catch of fish, will he be able to handle a large number of sheep (people) also? Since, Simon Peter should great Love and strenght in the Lord will Simon Peter when the time comes also bring every last sheep to the Lord also? Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep." Simon Peter walked on water, I'm sure in this same faith that he has been given will also be accomplished by "tending and feeding the lambs and sheep"!!! here are 3000 sheep...
Acts 2:38-41
Peter’s Sermon at Pentecost
38And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." 41So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
Peter
< Message edited by PeterD -- 7/28/2008 3:17:52 AM >
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RE: 153 fish - 7/28/2008 10:22:16 AM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11449
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
Status: offline
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
This thread HAS been going off topic. While indirectly related to the topic, it is still disruptive.
If you'd like to discuss/debate the "shadow" vs. literal/historical methods of Bible interpretation, please begin a new thread. Keep this thread about the fishing passage only.
Thank you!
Tricia
Forums Moderator
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