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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 8:55:45 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2965
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
Gentiles didn’t wait for messiah, so the shadows are not their thing.
Woohoo!!!!!
That is quite a profound statement.
I caught it the first time I read it, too. lol.
So the substance is ...?
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 9:28:49 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 934
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
SpongeBlog:
The moon (the law) governs the night, the sun (the Son) governs the day.
Where do you get the analogies in the parenthesis?
We all know the commands of the law were light for the darkness of man:
"The commands of the LORD are radiant, giving light to the eyes." (Psalm 19:8)
We also know Jesus is the true light that gives light to every man:
"The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world." (John 1:9)
And this light that is seen in Christ is His glory:
"...the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." (2 Cor. 4:4)
Paul even uses the symbolism of the creation account to describe the coming of Christ's glory (light) into the hearts of men:
"For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ." (2 Cor. 4:6)
Jesus's appearance is described as the brightness of the sun in a couple of places in the NT. One of them is the account of the transfiguration:
"There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light." (Matt. 17:2)
Which probably explains Peter's own description of the illumination of Christ in the believer as that of the coming of day:
"And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts." (2 Peter 1:19)
(His reference to the prophets also fits well. Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration are symbolic of Jesus being the fulfillment of both the law (Moses), and the prophets, as symbolized in Elijah.)
The key to all this lies in Paul's illustration of the fading glory and radiance of the law and the surpassing glory of the Spirit:
"...For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory." (2 Cor. 4:10)
The passing of the lesser incomplete light of the law and the coming of the greater and surpassing light and glory of Christ (which casts out all darkness, and in whom is no darkness) parallels perfectly to the appearance of the moon first in the evening (the first part of the 'day' in the OT reckoning of time) and then the breaking of day as the sun rises later is unmistakeable.
Like the moon, the law was a light for men, but it was a light that could not dispel all of the darkness of men and was only a poor reflection of the true body of light that illuminates the world and dispels all the darkness.
Spiritualizing yields the truth and depth of God's plan and ways. And the validity of 'spiritual' insights comes from using the precedent already found in scripture. Paul's use of the Gensis account of creation to describe the coming of Christ is that precedent.
This isn't hard and fast theology or doctrine. If it means something to someone, then great. I see it and I am blessed.
Thank God for the New Covenant.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 9:32:38 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 934
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Oh, I almost forgot. Paul tells us plainly that we are no longer under the 'supervision' (governance) of the law.
"So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." (Gal. 3:24-25)
The law (moon) governs the night where illumination is poorer and only a reflection of the true light (Jesus). The sun (SON) governs the day where every man can see plainly where he is going and walks in the light and love of God and there is nothing to make him stumble (you should recognize that as based on 1 John passages).
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 10:33:23 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
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sorry Blue, but ...
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Yes, there are some who keep Adonai's appointed times improperly. However, there is a difference. That difference is that Adonai's appointed times are appointed by Adonai.
how is improperly celebrating the holiday on the right, appointed by God day makes it better then improperly celebrating it on the wrong day? I thought the key word here is “improperly,(with the wrong attitide in their heart)" that is what defines how God sees the celebration!
So if some are “ worshipping with their lips but their heart is away from Me” but doing it on the right day you consider them somehow better then other idolaters?
Only hypocrites and Pharisees thought that doing it according to the Letter of the Law while being real dirtbags in their hearts makes them holy !! We cant fool God...
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 11:11:56 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 999
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Are you implying you keep ALL laws ALL the time ?
Not possible in our flesh that is not entirely perfected yet.
We have a fleshly nature & a spiritual nature (Gal 5 :17).
Would you have us believe you are perfect ?
If you could do it all yourself, then Jesus is superfluous.
There are sins of commission and sins of omission.
Are you telling us you are in 100 % with ALL God's laws ?
I will answer for you...
first off, I never implied nor has any one else implied that we are perfect or sinless. The fact is, 613 laws pertains to different people. Some pertain to men, women, children, the Levitical priesthood, farmers and kings. Deut. 30:11 NIV and KJV
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 11:27:14 AM
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HisPriest
Posts: 40
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Are you implying you keep ALL laws ALL the time ?
Not possible in our flesh that is not entirely perfected yet.
We have a fleshly nature & a spiritual nature (Gal 5 :17).
Would you have us believe you are perfect ?
If you could do it all yourself, then Jesus is superfluous.
There are sins of commission and sins of omission.
Are you telling us you are in 100 % with ALL God's laws ?
I will answer for you...
first off, I never implied nor has any one else implied that we are perfect or sinless. The fact is, 613 laws pertains to different people. Some pertain to men, women, children, the Levitical priesthood, farmers and kings. Deut. 30:11 NIV and KJV
You know, I heard this so many times; and yet I don't think anyone that keep the law of God says this!
You don't have to be perfect to keep the law of God, is the other way around, the law is for you to see how imperfect you are and the need of a saviour to forgive your sins
"by the law is the knowledge of sin"
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 1:52:06 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2492
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
Oh, I almost forgot.
The law (moon) governs the night where illumination is poorer and only a reflection of the true light (Jesus). The sun (SON) governs the day where every man can see plainly where he is going and walks in the light and love of God and there is nothing to make him stumble (you should recognize that as based on 1 John passages).
Re 6:12 - Show Context
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood
What happend here then??
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 4/25/2008 1:59:14 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 2:07:48 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 934
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
Re 6:12 - Show Context
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood
What happend here then??
LG
Immediately after that, or events in general from that moment foreward? I'm not following your line of thought.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 2:29:53 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
Re 6:12 - Show Context
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood
What happend here then??
LG
Immediately after that, or events in general from that moment foreward? I'm not following your line of thought.
I can follow that he took it to the N-th degree.
{ LG can correct me if I'm wrong?}
Just a suggestion, such allegories is very offensive to some by
using cultic expressions to express Yahushua.
Just trying to say there are other mindsets out there than ours. lol.
If "Jesus" is the Sun, then it can't be darkened.
Actually, to be technical "Je-sus" is the Sun, in the Greek he's called "Zeus."
Hay-seus means son of the sun. Not that I'm keeping track. lol.
I do understand you are comparing the "power" of the illuminations.
Yahushuah = "Elohim is our salvation."
Jesus (in Hebrew) = [has no meaning]
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 2:57:55 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 934
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
If you study the major changing events that happened to Israel and what
even happens today, you will find that they are on the Feast Days. Even
before the Israelies were instructed in them.
As I understand history, Israel's enemies have purposely chosen the Jew's historical festival times to attack, hoping to hit them when they are least prepared and vigilant to any impending invasion. But I'm certain God is using that to speak to the world about the validity of the truth of God's plans still unfullfilled. But it's a misguided conclusion to think we (those who know the truth) must be keeping those times and dates literally to be in God's favor. God has to continue to speak to unregenerate Jews through the time tables of the OT. It's all they know. It's the best way to validate prophecy to them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
If you study Passover in Exodus, you find God said that Abraham came into
the Promised Land on the very day as they are leaving. 430 years apart.
Abraham came in on the Feast of Unleavened Bread and the Israelites left on
Unleavened Bread. What richness awaits those who "hunger for truth." hmmmmmmmmmmm.
I'm not a law or OT scholar, how do we know Abraham entered in at a time that would later be the time of Unleavened Bread? Honest question. Educate me and others.
One way I understand the significance of the 430 years of silence during the slavery of the people of God up to their redemption from Egypt is as a symbolic parallel of the same length of time between the last words of the prophets and the redemption from slavery that came 400+ years later in the person and ministry of Jesus Christ.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Zechariah 14:16-20 tells us about the time of Messiah's reign.
"All who survive of all those nations that came up against Jerusalem
shall make a pilgrimage year by year to bow low to the King YHWH of Hosts
and to observe the Feast of Booths." (Tabernacles)
Yes, all nations will be tabernacled in Christ. It will be a continuing and everlasting reality and celebration. It is in that sense that the Feast of Booths will find it's fulfilment. And why not? Passover found it's fulfillment in Christ, not the literal procedures detailed in the law. Why are the springs feasts fulfilled spiritually and symbolically, while the fall feasts are expected to be literal?
Just as the way Passover was fulfilled was a 'mystery' and was only understood in it's true spiritual symbolic way later, so I expect the fall feasts to be the same. Except we know now that Christ is the fulfillment of all the feasts. We just don't know the details for the fall feasts yet.
And isn't it so fitting that the last festival be the celebration of finally being tabernacled in Christ after being atoned for. The symbolism is where the value of these things lie.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
So every fall we will all be going up to Jerusalem to keep the Feasts of YHWH.
And it AIN'T X-mass. It's tabernacles. All things of Ishtar and X-mass will be torn down.
The "appointed times" of YHWH will be completely re-established. Whether we believe in them
or not. You can google how to build a sukka so you won't be caught off guard. lol.
I'm confident Christmas and Easter observances will vanish. They are nothing now, they will be nothing then. And as I say Christ will be our sukka. The only difference between then and now is the actual redemption of our physical bodies. All believers are already tabernacled in Christ. Like I said, how fitting it is that the Feast of Tabernacles is the wrap up of all of history when man is finally safe in the sanctuary of God Himself.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Well, maybe that's another time ten gentiles will grab the tzit-tzit of a Jew and say, "Teach me."
"I always thought that was a bunch of foolishness." LOL.
You're taking liberties with that scripture that I think you should not. What Hebrew words directly correspond to 'a' Jew (rather than 'one Jew'--possiblly meaning Christ), and 'teach me' in the passage? Or is it just implied, being based on other scriptures? Honest question. But it's your choice if you want to answer it or not. The question is open to all, as are all my other questions.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Ezekiel 44:24 says..........."They shall preserve My teachings (Torah) and My law
regarding all "My fixed occasions;" (the Feasts Days) and they shall maintain the sanctity
of My sabbaths." ---------- OOPS, we won't be meeting on first day any more. lol.
It's easy to see how being gathered together in Christ by the Holy Spirit fulfills all the requirements for the days and seasons commanded in the OT. Christ is the day and season that has come and that we are to be obedient to follow. In the light of NT revelation it's appropriate to understand these OT pictures as illustrations of what gets accomplished when you are included in Christ when you believe and are sealed with the Holy Spirit.
At the end of the age all peoples who survive the judgement will be in perfect observance of these OT requirements in their more meaningful spiritual fulfillment (is it really important that you rest or congregate on a certain day, unless that day is really the time and season of Christ's appearing, aka in the NT as 'Today, the day of salvation'?)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Ezekeil 45:17-25 {More information about Feast Days and sacrifices during the Millennium}
(v.17) "But the burnt offerings, the meal offerings, and the libations on festivals, new
moons, sabbaths ------ all fixed occasions ------- of the House of Israel shall be the obligation
of the prince; (Messiah) he shall provide the sin offerings, the meal offerings, the burnt offerings,
and the offerings of well-being, to make expiation for the House of Israel.
Wow, and I thought the Jew's sins were expiated through Christ like the rest of us. This one passage alone shows that the fulfillment of these prophecies is symbolic and spiritual and fulfilled in Christ, not literally. Obviously, the sacrifices spoken of aren't the literal OT ones, but rather Christ's sacrifice, the true fulfillment of the OT requirements for sacrifice.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 4/25/2008 3:04:04 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 3:31:07 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 934
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,
Hi Sponge,
I understand and agree with your points.
All things are created by one and only Creator, YHWH.
The celestials were put in the heavens, actually, we could say as the inner working
of God's time piece. Remember when a watch had intricate gears and springs?
I hate those diode things. lol. I still carry a pocket watch. Old, old habit. lol.
They are to mark seasons, days, and years. Just as it's laid out in Leviticus 23.
Yes, I see the symbolism of the difference between the night and it's illuminary, and the day and it's illuminary. It's pure Bible. Why can't the sun be included in the reckoning of God's timetable? He Himself uses it to mark the passage of time. The breaking of day and the rising of the sun is symbolic of both the first and second comings of Christ in the Bible. Am I wrong on that? But I can definately see if a person is accustomed to idols (mythological sun and moon Gods) that they would have a hard time with that. But to the pure in heart all things are pure, as Paul says. The sun and the moon have no attachment to pagan God's for me, therefore they are pure in my heart and conscience. Can you see past your own polluted conscience to see that others can be free of pagan influences?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Just as most of us have been told. That verse that says "not to neglect the assembling
of yourselves together, especially as you see the days coming to an end." I was told
and thought that that was an argument to be in church when the doors were open, or
at the mininum to be there every sun-day.
But with the context of the Scriptures as a "whole" that verse really means,
"Not to neglect the assembling of yourselves together on the chag festivals, those
three feasts that the males are required to come together. LOL. Boy, do we miss the boat
thinking the book is written from our simple point of view.
So many nuggets to be found for the "miners" to find.
The biggest failure I see in the NT in regard to the law is the lack of explicit commands to keep specific festivals, times, seasons, dates, etc. Why has no NT writer included explicit exhortations to keep literal times and dates and festivals? The only thing that even comes close is John's 'keep His commands' which he qualifies as 'love your brother', not 'keep the observances of the law' (love your brother and keep the law are not necessarily the same thing). I would believe Paul meant the chag festivals in the Hebrews 10 passage if he'd actually said so.
And before you go there, saying that it is understood that everyone knew what he was talking about is not a good argument, especially in light of so much of what he wrote about the law (instructions, doesn't matter--it's all the OT system, or way of relating to God). Believe me, if I wanted to exhort people to keep the literal law, that's exactly what I'd say, like they did in the OT, very pointedly and specifically.
The law keeping argument relies too heavily on implications, redefinitions, and extra-Biblical explanations (I agree, it's a 'mindset' that you have to adopt, but that doesn't make it right). Why do people prefer that over and above the clear language of the NT and instead rely on added on instruction? Is it no surprise that the Jews themselves, made jealous by our relationship with their God, zealously defend literal OT law keeping in opposition to the Gentile's freedom in the Holy Spirit, and instigate these 'new' understandings?
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 4/25/2008 3:37:34 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 3:39:34 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Here's a fun quiz to test our knowledge:
http://www.fossilizedcustoms.com/quiz.html
The site is heavily biased and oozes hate, i wouldnt recommend it.
their How are Messianic different from Christians? comparison alone is enough for me to not takie it seriously.
QUOTE:
WHo and what are christians?
Christians are followers of a Greco-Roman culture of names, terms, and festivals, all adopted intact from Pagan sources, yet adapted or mixed carefully with ideas and people from the Hebrew Scriptures….Every detail of Scriptural observance was omitted, and replaced with new observances.
With skillfully crafted reasoning over many centuries, the formerly Pagan observances were camouflaged or wrapped in new meanings.
Examples: ..
Futher it goes explaining how Christians celebrate pagan holidays and Sunday is a pagan day the word "Christian" itself is Pagan, word "Jesus" is Pagan, yeah, yeah..
Lap, all due respect, but that site looks like hateful, hysterical, borderline cult..
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 4:00:07 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
But it's a misguided conclusion to think we (those who know the truth) must be keeping those times and dates literally to be in God's favor.
I'm only responding to this first paragraph as I know I would get timed out if I try to
answer them all. Which I will do if time will permit me.
This is "jumping to conclusion" to keep bringing up a "misguided conclusion"
to something no one is saying. Nothing can be "done" to be in God's favor.
So, I'd like to get rid of this dialogue in our responses. Thanks.
quote:
I'm not a law or OT scholar, how do we know Abraham entered in at a time that would later be the time of Unleavened Bread? Honest question. Educate me and others.
Exodus 12:41 (KJV)
And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years,
even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD (YHWH)
went out from the land of Egypt.
Also in verse 51 ---
And it came to pass the self same day, that the LORD (YHWH) did bring
the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we study the Feasts of YHWH as much as we reject them, we would
recognize a lot of little nuggets throughout Scripture (New and Old).
quote:
Why are the springs feasts fulfilled spiritually and symbolically, while the fall feasts are expected to be literal?
Both the Spring and Fall Feasts will be literal during the Millennium and Eternity after.
quote:
We just don't know the details for the fall feasts yet.
These are laid out in Revelation.
Revelation is the fulfillments of the Fall Feasts.
All the events listed in Revelation will occur on the feast days.
quote:
You're taking liberties with that scripture that I think you should not. What Hebrew words directly correspond to 'a' Jew (rather than 'one Jew'--possiblly meaning Christ), and 'teach me' in the passage? Or is it just implied, being based on other scriptures? Honest question. But it's your choice if you want to answer it or not. The question is open to all, as are all my other questions.
I just ran across another variation of what it could "also" mean.
The (10) tribes will grab onto the (1) tribe, Yudah.
This is just speculation. But, we all know many scriptures have several fulfillments.
The lost 10 reattaching to the 1, the gentiles finally recognizing their roots, and the final
and most important one, the scales falling off the eyes and reaching for the Messiah.
quote:
This one passage alone shows that the fulfillment of these prophecies is symbolic and spiritual and fulfilled in Christ, not literally.
Many things are continued after the "fulfillment."
Are we keeping a festival looking to the future or even now in remembrance of the past?
Of course, I'm talking about July 4th for America. We have our independance. It's done,
it's in the past, it's fulfilled. Yet, every year we celebrate (keep the feast) Independence Day.
This is where the pro-Law and anti-Law argument is skewed.
< Message edited by Lapidoth -- 4/25/2008 4:23:05 PM >
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 4:23:02 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
Why can't the sun be included in the reckoning of God's timetable?
I can't answer that, I'm not God.
God reckons with the moon. That's just the way He designed it.
The part He does use the Sun is to mark the days.
From sundown to sundown. And the seventh is the Sabbath.
That hasn't changed as long as there's been a Sun. Which is at least 6,000 years.
The months and years are determined by the "moon."
God's reckoning of Time.
quote:
Can you see past your own polluted conscience to see that others can be free of pagan influences?
You declare you know this is all "biblical."
I don't understand why you insist on some of us, or is it me in particular?
of having a "polluted conscience." Is it because you "spiritualize" away the
things you don't like to hear? Just curious.
quote:
included explicit exhortations to keep literal times and dates and festivals?
Paul answered this. "You have no need I write to you about these times."
It's instructed all through their culture. They were writing to Israel.
quote:
(I agree, it's a 'mindset' that you have to adopt, but that doesn't make it right).
As Jeremiah could see into the future, we would come and declare "we have inherited lies." Jer. 16:19
I don't understand the furor "against" God's Feasts, and the same furor "protecting" the feasts of
Ishtar and X-mass which the OT declares by God to be an abomination to Him.
All I can say is: ?????????????????????????????????????? lol.
< Message edited by Lapidoth -- 4/25/2008 4:45:36 PM >
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 4:32:34 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1666
Joined: 11/8/2007
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With all of the diatribes and people talking over one another, I lost my place. If I may start again fresh, can we agree that Ha Torah(The Law) was never intended as a means of salvation? If we can agree on this I will move on to discuss further.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 4:36:48 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
WHo and what are christians?
Christians are followers of a Greco-Roman culture of names, terms, and festivals, all adopted intact from Pagan sources, yet adapted or mixed carefully with ideas and people from the Hebrew Scriptures….Every detail of Scriptural observance was omitted, and replaced with new observances.
With skillfully crafted reasoning over many centuries, the formerly Pagan observances were camouflaged or wrapped in new meanings
Sorry you found it offensive.
But it's the truth just the same.
Nimrod was the first king on earth.
He totally defied God, started his own worship of himself, later as the sun,
and began the world wide religion we have today. Pick any religion, it's the same.
Even we don't fall far from the tree we fell from.
History bears it all out, but I understand it's an easy thing to deny and reject. That's our choice.
POPE (latin; papa) "father"
Yeshua said call no man father, but how many fathers are running around the planet? lol.
I'm just laying out the information. I'm not directing anything at any one. We may take things
personal. I take no offence at what is directed at me and I still love all the brethren. Okay?
< Message edited by Lapidoth -- 4/25/2008 4:44:10 PM >
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Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 4:38:49 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
The site is heavily biased and oozes hate, i wouldnt recommend it.
You must mean "not politically correct." lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 4:42:05 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
With all of the diatribes and people talking over one another, I lost my place. If I may start again fresh, can we agree that Ha Torah(The Law) was never intended as a means of salvation? If we can agree on this I will move on to discuss further.
I didn't see you sneak in. lol.
I'll agree with that.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 5:56:08 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1666
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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If anyone objects to the first, I will backtrack. For now, presuming that Ha Torah doesn't provide salvation, does It provide us with a good guide for living?
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 10:40:09 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Sorry you found it offensive.
Are you surprised? :) considering the content they spit out..
quote:
POPE (latin; papa) "father"
Yeshua said call no man father, but how many fathers are running around the planet? lol.
Oh, that is being heavily debated - but on Catholic threads, that is ... 
quote:
O : The site is heavily biased and oozes hate, i wouldnt recommend it.
LAP: You must mean "not politically correct." lol.
No. I know the difference. Site's accusations about paganism of christians is baseless.
quote:
I'm just laying out the information. I'm not directing anything at any one. We may take things
personal. I take no offence at what is directed at me and I still love all the brethren. Okay?
That is what i would call an attempt to political correctness :)
But yes, brother, I believe you love all brothers in Christ, you gave no reason for me to think otherwise! That is why i was surprised at the site you presented.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2008 10:43:01 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 934
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
But it's a misguided conclusion to think we (those who know the truth) must be keeping those times and dates literally to be in God's favor.
I'm only responding to this first paragraph as I know I would get timed out if I try to
answer them all. Which I will do if time will permit me.
This is "jumping to conclusion" to keep bringing up a "misguided conclusion"
to something no one is saying. Nothing can be "done" to be in God's favor.
So, I'd like to get rid of this dialogue in our responses. Thanks.
I'm sure it has been said more than once that the literal ceremonial observances are the way God has ordained to experience Him fully. I don't think I'm misunderstanding that literalist's believe that.
Oh, by the way, if you click back to the forums page occassionally and scroll it a couple of times you won't time out.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
I'm not a law or OT scholar, how do we know Abraham entered in at a time that would later be the time of Unleavened Bread? Honest question. Educate me and others.
Exodus 12:41 (KJV)
And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years,
even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD (YHWH)
went out from the land of Egypt.
Also in verse 51 ---
And it came to pass the self same day, that the LORD (YHWH) did bring
the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we study the Feasts of YHWH as much as we reject them, we would
recognize a lot of little nuggets throughout Scripture (New and Old).
I'm still missing it. Going back to your first post...How do we know Abraham entered Cannan during the week of the year later to be known as the Feast of Unleavened Bread?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
Why are the springs feasts fulfilled spiritually and symbolically, while the fall feasts are expected to be literal?
Both the Spring and Fall Feasts will be literal during the Millennium and Eternity after.
quote:
We just don't know the details for the fall feasts yet.
These are laid out in Revelation.
Revelation is the fulfillments of the Fall Feasts.
All the events listed in Revelation will occur on the feast days.
I understand how the end of human history and the establishment of God's kingdom in general is a fulfillment of the OT observances, but what are some specific events apart from the actual return of Christ that will occur on festival dates?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
You're taking liberties with that scripture that I think you should not. What Hebrew words directly correspond to 'a' Jew (rather than 'one Jew'--possiblly meaning Christ), and 'teach me' in the passage? Or is it just implied, being based on other scriptures? Honest question. But it's your choice if you want to answer it or not. The question is open to all, as are all my other questions.
I just ran across another variation of what it could "also" mean.
The (10) tribes will grab onto the (1) tribe, Yudah.
This is just speculation. But, we all know many scriptures have several fulfillments.
The lost 10 reattaching to the 1, the gentiles finally recognizing their roots, and the final
and most important one, the scales falling off the eyes and reaching for the Messiah.
Yes, these I can grasp. That's what I get out of the context of the chapter. And I totally agree with the dual fulfillment of prophecy. God's prophecy to Eli, and God's prophecy to David both found their fulfillment in Samuel and Solomon respectively, yet they also find their ultimate fulfillment in Christ.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
This one passage alone shows that the fulfillment of these prophecies is symbolic and spiritual and fulfilled in Christ, not literally.
Many things are continued after the "fulfillment."
Are we keeping a festival looking to the future or even now in remembrance of the past?
Of course, I'm talking about July 4th for America. We have our independance. It's done,
it's in the past, it's fulfilled. Yet, every year we celebrate (keep the feast) Independence Day.
This is where the pro-Law and anti-Law argument is skewed.
No one is saying it's not right or appropriate to commemorate something that's already occurred, and that it's appropriate to do that on the historical date it originally occurred (even though we don't do that with all holidays--President's day, Columbus day...). Nor is anyone saying it's wrong to commemorate the original event by reenacting the original event in some way. But it is clear in the NT that the commemoration of Christ's death and resurrection is to be accomplished in a way that does not resemble the Israelites commemoration of coming out of Egypt, even though the parallels exist between the two events and we accept one as the fulfillment of the other. (This brings up another point about what the 'fulfillment' of an OT observance actually means. Maybe we can go there).
The point is, if this is true of the Passover (neither the fulfillment, or the celebration of it's fulfillment, resemble the original festival), then why should we expect the fulfillment of the fall festivals to be commemorated in the same way as the original feast?
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 4/25/2008 10:51:19 PM >
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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