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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/2/2008 10:27:20 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2492
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
Where do I find 'going the extra mile', and 'turn the other cheek' in the Old law?
Jesus made it very clear that the work He preformed was from the Father, thereby 'going that extra mile'
…….Which is why I would hardly call Jesus...a RC,
Aren't you kind of avoiding my question?
Many of Jesus's teachings are not in the old law. Based on the law keeping argument that makes Him RC.
Spiritual life is clearly defined as the fruit of the Spirit in the New Covenant.
Greetings,
quote:
Aren't you kind of avoiding my question?
What question??
I don’t subscribe and never will to the NT only crowd, the only fullness that is in Christ is written in 66 books,
The type and shadow even in the OLD temple we see that in the Holy place there was not “1 half”… of a “golden” lampstand
quote:
Many of Jesus’ teachings are not in the old law.
Which ones?
Jesus is the OT Law giver; ……. Joh 1:18 - Show Context
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, (Jesus) has made him (God) known.
who do think was speaking to Moses???
Obliviously He didn’t give worthless accounts in the old law to torture the children of Israel. 
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/2/2008 10:47:07 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2492
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Which reminds me of Manna’s question that went unanswered.
quote:
This is a genuine question...please respond kindly.
I want to remember my Jesus completely & entirely.
If I am missing out on something, I want to know.
Will any of these rituals/ceremonies bring me closer
to The King of Kings and Lord of Lords, The Great
I Am, or will I be too obtuse to comprehend them ?
Will they enhance and improve upon the indwelling
of The Holy Spirit or the sealed guarantee that I
possess unto the Day of Redemption ?
Any beloved brethren /sistren from Torah camp wishes to tackle this one? I am not trying to initiate a fight, God forbid, it just I am seriously interested- could that be something in Messianic way of thinking that I am missing as of now....?
Greetings,
They already answered it,
Will any of these rituals/ceremonies bring me closer
to The King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Will they enhance and improve upon the indwelling of The Holy Spirit or the sealed guarantee that I
possess unto the Day of Redemption ?
This is hard to say, why did Jesus bother to keep them??
Hey...perhaps ….He was a Jew!!
But I believe the required sacrifice of animals were the point of the rituals/ceremonies, in which were to be without blemish,
Since then the bride in this betrothal period is under that same stipulations, who by offering up sacrifices of Praise, when He comes He is coming for a bride without, spot of wrinkle.
Mt 12:37 - Show Context
For by your words (praise) you will be justified, and by your words (praise) you will be condemned."
Why do we praise then if it’s abolished???
The truth is, it is not,
Think of this way... that peace during the Christmas season when we praise Him, is it real peace that is of the HS, or is the peace that is brought about by Idol worship???
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/2/2008 2:41:41 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
Will any of these rituals/ceremonies bring me closer
to The King of Kings and Lord of Lords, The Great
I Am, or will I be too obtuse to comprehend them ?
The question about being brought closer to the King of kings is
dependent on our own personalities.
It in and of itself will not make us more holy, or depend our relationship.
This is what the nay-sayers argue and the yea-sayers agree if they could be heard.
What the learning of the Feasts, etc. does is give a better understanding.
More understanding can bring a "getting to know God better" by "knowing His ways."
That probably didn't come out right. But, everytime we hold a Passover, etc. service,
everyone we invite walk away saying, "Wow, that all makes sense now."
It's more connecting the dots in all the things we're told and taught.
And sometimes when the dots are connected, the "traditions of men" are exposed.
In comparison, Ezekiel chapter eight reveals that "Easter" sunrise service is nothing new.
They did not observe God's ways, but kept Babylonian ways in the Temple grounds.
Ezekiel repented when it was shown to him, but we start yelling "legalistic!"
How can we understand God's ways if we are never taught them, or worse, "kept from them?"
My relationship is no more than before, but my understanding is greater.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/2/2008 2:59:48 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2492
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
Will any of these rituals/ceremonies bring me closer
to The King of Kings and Lord of Lords, The Great
I Am, or will I be too obtuse to comprehend them ?
The question about being brought closer to the King of kings is
dependent on our own personalities.
It in and of itself will not make us more holy, or depend our relationship.
This is what the nay-sayers argue and the yea-sayers agree if they could be heard.
What the learning of the Feasts, etc. does is give a better understanding.
More understanding can bring a "getting to know God better" by "knowing His ways."
That probably didn't come out right. But, everytime we hold a Passover, etc. service,
everyone we invite walk away saying, "Wow, that all makes sense now."
It's more connecting the dots in all the things we're told and taught.
And sometimes when the dots are connected, the "traditions of men" are exposed.
In comparison, Ezekiel chapter eight reveals that "Easter" sunrise service is nothing new.
They did not observe God's ways, but kept Babylonian ways in the Temple grounds.
Ezekiel repented when it was shown to him, but we start yelling "legalistic!"
How can we understand God's ways if we are never taught them, or worse, "kept from them?"
My relationship is no more than before, but my understanding is greater.
Greetings,
quote:
My relationship is no more than before, "but".. my understanding is greater.
Thats the Spirit!! 
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/2/2008 7:04:06 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 934
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
Aren't you kind of avoiding my question?
What question??
This one:
quote:
Where do I find 'going the extra mile', and 'turn the other cheek' in the Old law?
I said these are new teachings of Jesus not found in the old law, so that must make Him RC. Hard and fast laws do change and find their greater understanding and fulfillment above and beyond the Old Covenant in the principles of the New. Jesus started the first reformation in the Church. Paul started the second reformation when he started sharing the revelations he received from God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
..I don’t subscribe and never will to the NT only crowd, the only fullness that is in Christ is written in 66 books...
You are aware that some things are not binding anymore from the law right? And what is still binding finds it's fulfillment in the Holy Spirit, which may or may not look like it's fulfillment under the old law. The idea of a never-changing law is simply not true.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
Many of Jesus’ teachings are not in the old law.
Which ones?
Matthew 5 through 7 is full of them--teachings on divorce, prayer, relating to your enemies, going the extra mile, civil suits...
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
Obliviously He didn’t give worthless accounts in the old law to torture the children of Israel.
Some were worthless in and of themselves, but they pointed to valuable spiritual truth. Some commands grate against everything human about us. Thank God we fulfill those in the more meaningful way of their spiritual significance where there is freedom and liberty, away from the bondage of commandments governing the basic principles of human existence. But you have to live in the New Covenant to experience that freedom. Staying under the rule of the old law keeps you locked up under laws that effectively cut you off from fellowship with God (and I'm not talking about salvation, I'm talking about fellowship in the Holy Spirit with God). Don't you know the law actually legislated your separation from God? It did not usher you into His prescense the way some claim it did (does). To be a true law-keeper meant you followed every rule that required your separation from fellowship with God and the people of God. You are aware of that, right?
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/2/2008 7:23:54 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
Some were worthless in and of themselves, but they pointed to valuable spiritual truth.
If they are worthless in and of themselves, then there would be no spiritual truth learned from them.
Time to chill and just relax over a cup of java and crumpets.
Let's put our daggers down just for a day. lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/2/2008 9:49:28 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 934
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
Some were worthless in and of themselves, but they pointed to valuable spiritual truth.
If they are worthless in and of themselves, then there would be no spiritual truth learned from them.
I think these passages prove otherwise:
'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material'. (Lev. 19:19)
(Quick, everybody check the tag in your shirt!)
'Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard'. (Lev. 19:27)
I know I may come across as being irreverent because of how highly we have esteemed the law of Moses through history, but once a person knows the underlying intent of the law they can move their reverence to the more important principles it represents. Which was God's intention all along.
All this reminds me of when Jesus warned the disciples to beware of the yeast of the Pharisees. They thought He meant actual yeast. And until they understood that He was not talking about literal yeast it would have been expected of them to avoid literal leaven. But once Jesus told them that he wasn't referring to actual leaven, but rather a more important principle, they were free from the command to avoid literal leaven. In this case the command to avoid the literal yeast of the Pharisees was effectively nullified when Jesus taught them the underlying intent of His command. With the new understanding the literal fulfillment was nullified, yet the command was preserved in the sense that it was to now be fulfilled in it's greater and more important spiritual application.
I don't know why people are so zealous to defend a system of relating to God that even the Bible says was weak and ineffective, and was only a shadow of God's true spiritual intentions for us, and one that essentially magnified our separation from God, not brought us closer.
Thank God for the New Covenant.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 8:54:30 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2965
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
I know I may come across as being irreverent because of how highly we have esteemed the law of Moses through history, but once a person knows the underlying intent of the law they can move their reverence to the more important principles it represents. Which was God's intention all along.
All this reminds me of when Jesus warned the disciples to beware of the yeast of the Pharisees. They thought He meant actual yeast. And until they understood that He was not talking about literal yeast it would have been expected of them to avoid literal leaven. But once Jesus told them that he wasn't referring to actual leaven, but rather a more important principle, they were free from the command to avoid literal leaven. In this case the command to avoid the literal yeast of the Pharisees was effectively nullified when Jesus taught them the underlying intent of His command. With the new understanding the literal fulfillment was nullified, yet the command was preserved in the sense that it was to now be fulfilled in it's greater and more important spiritual application.
I don't know why people are so zealous to defend a system of relating to God that even the Bible says was weak and ineffective, and was only a shadow of God's true spiritual intentions for us, and one that essentially magnified our separation from God, not brought us closer.
Thank God for the New Covenant.
Amen Sponge- 
"Defend a system" as you say is accurate.
Not a defense of God's Omniscience/Omnipotence-
Not a defense of the power of Christ's Holy Blood-
Not a defense of the Presence of The Comforter-
Rather a clinging to a hollow, lifeless emptiness.
Rituals, ceremonies, customs, and traditions...
Is this how we draw near to God ? Worship God ?
Don't we draw near to God THROUGH Christ alone ?
Hebrews 7:18-19 (King James Version)
18For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
The embracing of a system God instituted to help
and assist His people, and develop it to the point
of overkill, making it a denominational platform
and a religious centerpiece is not God's intention.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 9:32:29 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2965
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
How can we understand God's ways if we are never taught them, or worse, "kept from them?"
My relationship is no more than before, but my understanding is greater.
So God deliberately is witholding truth from us ?
Oh, only some have access ?...Who and how ?
Only folks like you have all the answers ?
That's implicit (or perhaps blatant) in your posts.
How do we obtain godly understanding ?
Not through following laws and customs.
Matthew 11:27 (King James Version)
27All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Luke 24:45 (King James Version)
45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
1 Corinthians 2:12-13 (King James Version)
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Ephesians 1:17-18 (King James Version)
17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
1 Timothy 1:5-7 (Amplified Bible)
5Whereas the object and purpose of our instruction and charge is love, which springs from a pure heart and a good (clear) conscience and sincere (unfeigned) faith.
6But certain individuals have missed the mark on this very matter [and] have wandered away into vain arguments and discussions and purposeless talk.
7They are ambitious to be doctors of the Law (teachers of the Mosaic ritual), but they have no understanding either of the words and terms they use or of the subjects about which they make [such] dogmatic assertions.
Why did Jesus continually say people lacked wisdom ?
Perhaps the means they used to procure understanding ?
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 9:51:32 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2965
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
Aren't you kind of avoiding my question?
What question??
I don’t subscribe and never will to the NT only crowd, the only fullness that is in Christ is written in 66 books,
LG
Who is in the New Testament crowd ?
What does a member subscribe to ?
Who here (rhetorical...no one !) has said
or even implied the OT is to be dismissed ?
How do we become FULL in Christ ?
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 9:57:04 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2965
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Please, in simplified manner, idiot –proof, as for me to get it:
Here is a nice, gentile fellow who never got the memo that he's suppose to be waiting for Messiah, he is in the wrong location. He receives the Good News about Jesus with gladness and saved by the grace of God. What would it benefit him to start observing the feasts, holidays, and generally go messianic ?
Outside of some physical benefit from eating less fat if he gives up pork and added outdoor exercise to go and build a sukkah with his grandson? What spiritual benefits?
What’s in it for Manna? What’s in it, if anything, for God?
And why am I in the dark on the matter ?
The Holy Spirit sanctified, saved, and sealed me-
yet I was not taught these "other" truths...?
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 10:06:14 AM
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HisPriest
Posts: 40
Joined: 4/11/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
I know I may come across as being irreverent because of how highly we have esteemed the law of Moses through history, but once a person knows the underlying intent of the law they can move their reverence to the more important principles it represents. Which was God's intention all along.
All this reminds me of when Jesus warned the disciples to beware of the yeast of the Pharisees. They thought He meant actual yeast. And until they understood that He was not talking about literal yeast it would have been expected of them to avoid literal leaven. But once Jesus told them that he wasn't referring to actual leaven, but rather a more important principle, they were free from the command to avoid literal leaven. In this case the command to avoid the literal yeast of the Pharisees was effectively nullified when Jesus taught them the underlying intent of His command. With the new understanding the literal fulfillment was nullified, yet the command was preserved in the sense that it was to now be fulfilled in it's greater and more important spiritual application.
I don't know why people are so zealous to defend a system of relating to God that even the Bible says was weak and ineffective, and was only a shadow of God's true spiritual intentions for us, and one that essentially magnified our separation from God, not brought us closer.
Thank God for the New Covenant.
Amen Sponge-
I am sorry, but cannot say "Amen Sponge" When we talk about the "LAW OF GOD" (Not the law of Moses); we are not talking about shadows, or a weak law, and much less ineffective. Please use common sense! Where we see the shadow in the Ten Commandments? Is the law of “Honor your father and your mother” a weak law? Lets read:
“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you” Ex. 20:12
Did you see the blessing here? Is the law of “You shall not commit adultery” ineffective or a shadow? Do you think that is OK for your wife or husband to commit adultery? No wander in this days the majority of people has no respect for their partners anymore.
When the Bible talks about shadows, or the weakness (Heb 8:7,8); people has distorted the great commandments of God! We have to read, my friend, we have to go back to the OT and read that it was an agreement (also call covenant, or pact) between God and Israel, I beg you to read again Ex. 19:5-8; Here we can see the people promised to keep the Ten Commandments, and this promise was ratified by the sprinkled blood of an animal (Ex. 24:7,8).
Now, here is a question so you can exercise your senses; Did the people keep the promises? No, they failed, here is another question; Why they failed? Perhaps because they tried to obey in human strength alone? Of course that is why they failed without God we will fail in everything.
So the weak, was the agreement, or covenant, or pact between people and God. The weakness of the people; Not the Ten Commandments of God.
The new covenant, or pact between God and His people is the SAME LAWS (Ten Commandments) put in our hearts; and now ratified not with the blood of an animal, but with a more precious blood; the blood of Jesus Christ. Same laws, a new pact, or new covenant. Are we going to fail this new pact with our creator again?
Jesus says:
John 14:15 " If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Very simple to understand, if we really love Him, we will keep His commandments.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
The saints, His people, this are the ones “who keep the commandments of God”
Would you like to be one of this saints? Do you love Him?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 10:27:06 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2965
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisPriest
Jesus says:
John 14:15 " If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Very simple to understand, if we really love Him, we will keep His commandments.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
The saints, His people, this are the ones “who keep the commandments of God”
Would you like to be one of this saints? Do you love Him?
WOW...that's not condescending now is it...LOL ???
Besides, questioning or making comments regarding someone's
salvation is a TOS violation. So some laws are OK to break ?
God's command is to love Him and others. Jesus said it !
The Law is fulfilled by loving God and loving others.
Not by keeping what you believe to be important.
Anyone can adhere to empty & hollow formulas !!!
Romans 13:9-11 (New King James Version)
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,”[a] “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”[c] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
So what law are you keeping ?
Customs, rituals, ceremony, diet, traditions...is this love ?
Nope, not according to the ROYAL law found in Scripture !
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 11:54:33 AM
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HisPriest
Posts: 40
Joined: 4/11/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisPriest
Jesus says:
John 14:15 " If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Very simple to understand, if we really love Him, we will keep His commandments.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
The saints, His people, this are the ones “who keep the commandments of God”
Would you like to be one of this saints? Do you love Him?
WOW...that's not condescending now is it...LOL ???
Besides, questioning or making comments regarding someone's
salvation is a TOS violation. So some laws are OK to break ?
God's command is to love Him and others. Jesus said it !
The Law is fulfilled by loving God and loving others.
Not by keeping what you believe to be important.
Anyone can adhere to empty & hollow formulas !!!
Romans 13:9-11 (New King James Version)
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,”[a] “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”[c] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
So what law are you keeping ?
Customs, rituals, ceremony, diet, traditions...is this love ?
Nope, not according to the ROYAL law found in Scripture !
Mucking your brother is not one of Jesus commandments.
You are right in saying that Jesus mention two “new commandments” as you said “love Him and others”; But are this really new commandments? Not He just mention scripture in the OT?
Deuteronomy 6:5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.
Leviticus 19:18 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.
So, why people think that these are new commandments? Well they are! Jesus said “A new commandment I give unto you” (Jn 13:34); But the command was new in that a new demonstration had been given of love, by His revelation of His Father’s character Jesus had opened to men a new concept of the love of God; the old commandment says love your neighbor as yourself; the new urged us to love as Jesus had loved.
Why people think that this two commandments of love destroy all the ten??? I have no idea, for the Bible does not teach that.
About Rom. 13, what a perfect example that the laws are not void, but “fulfill” which means filing up and not destroy as some wants to believe. We don’t have other gods not because the law says that, but because we LOVE God, we don’t kill, just because the law says “do not kill”, we don’t kill because we LOVE our neighbor, and so on.
This are not my words but the word of God, so, when you think that you are mucking me, you are mucking the word of God, and one of His children, remember “love God and love your neighbor” mucking is not a sign of love.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 1:57:35 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2965
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
Deuteronomy 6:5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.
Leviticus 19:18 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.
I did not say NEW commandments. Please read more carefully.
quote:
So, why people think that these are new commandments? Well they are! Jesus said “A new commandment I give unto you” (Jn 13:34); But the command was new in that a new demonstration had been given of love, by His revelation of His Father’s character Jesus had opened to men a new concept of the love of God; the old commandment says love your neighbor as yourself; the new urged us to love as Jesus had loved.
Again these 2 commands summarize the entire law of God. See Matthew 22:40-Why did Jesus respond as he did ?quote:
Why people think that this two commandments of love destroy all the ten??? I have no idea, for the Bible does not teach that. Who said that ?
quote:
This are not my words but the word of God, so, when you think that you are mucking me, you are mucking the word of God, and one of His children, remember “love God and love your neighbor” mucking is not a sign of love. Again, disagreeing = disagreeing
quote:
The saints, His people, this are the ones “who keep the commandments of God”
Would you like to be one of this saints? Do you love Him?
This is mocking friend...and you posted it ...NOT me !!!
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Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 6:39:43 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2965
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
Jesus is the OT Law giver; ……. Joh 1:18 - Show Context
LG
Oops...I believe you misread or misquoted.
John 1:17 (King James Version)
17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
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Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 6:52:53 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2965
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
..I don’t subscribe and never will to the NT only crowd, the only fullness that is in Christ is written in 66 books...
You are aware that some things are not binding anymore from the law right? And what is still binding finds it's fulfillment in the Holy Spirit, which may or may not look like it's fulfillment under the old law. The idea of a never-changing law is simply not true.
Some laws changed, and actually became more stringent.
Jesus stated His position on adultery.
When Jesus spoke on The Sermon on the Mount, He
took a law and made it more difficult to follow.
Before: You shall not COMMIT adultery.
Now: Looking lustfully IS adultery !!!
Matthew 5:27-28 (King James Version)
27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Did this law change ? It became harder to keep.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 10:20:57 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2492
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
Jesus is the OT Law giver; ……. Joh 1:18 - Show Context
LG
Oops...I believe you misread or misquoted.
John 1:17 (King James Version)
17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Greetings,
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created:
Things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; ""all things"" were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
EKKLESIA Acts 7: 35 This Moses whom they rejected, saying, 'Who made you a ruler and a judge?' is the one God sent to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the Angel who appeared to him in the bush. 36 He brought them out, after he had shown wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red Sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
37 "This is that Moses who said to the children of Israel, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren.
Him you shall hear.
38 This is he = (that Moses said. Him you shall hear)…..who “”was in the congregation”” (church<1577>) in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him (Moses) on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us, 39 whom our fathers would not obey, but rejected.
quote:
Oops...I believe you misread or misquoted.
Not exactly…I was right on the cue.
Do you know why they said this here in v 37....Him you shall hear.
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 5/3/2008 10:30:14 PM >
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Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/4/2008 9:44:56 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 934
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisPriest
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: HisPriest
Jesus says:
John 14:15 " If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Very simple to understand, if we really love Him, we will keep His commandments.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
The saints, His people, this are the ones “who keep the commandments of God”
Would you like to be one of this saints? Do you love Him?
WOW...that's not condescending now is it...LOL ???
Besides, questioning or making comments regarding someone's
salvation is a TOS violation. So some laws are OK to break ?
God's command is to love Him and others. Jesus said it !
The Law is fulfilled by loving God and loving others.
Not by keeping what you believe to be important.
Anyone can adhere to empty & hollow formulas !!!
Romans 13:9-11 (New King James Version)
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,”[a] “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”[c] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
So what law are you keeping ?
Customs, rituals, ceremony, diet, traditions...is this love ?
Nope, not according to the ROYAL law found in Scripture !
Mucking your brother is not one of Jesus commandments.
You are right in saying that Jesus mention two “new commandments” as you said “love Him and others”; But are this really new commandments? Not He just mention scripture in the OT?
Deuteronomy 6:5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.
Leviticus 19:18 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.
So, why people think that these are new commandments? Well they are! Jesus said “A new commandment I give unto you” (Jn 13:34); But the command was new in that a new demonstration had been given of love, by His revelation of His Father’s character Jesus had opened to men a new concept of the love of God; the old commandment says love your neighbor as yourself; the new urged us to love as Jesus had loved.
Why people think that this two commandments of love destroy all the ten??? I have no idea, for the Bible does not teach that.
About Rom. 13, what a perfect example that the laws are not void, but “fulfill” which means filing up and not destroy as some wants to believe. We don’t have other gods not because the law says that, but because we LOVE God, we don’t kill, just because the law says “do not kill”, we don’t kill because we LOVE our neighbor, and so on.
This are not my words but the word of God, so, when you think that you are mucking me, you are mucking the word of God, and one of His children, remember “love God and love your neighbor” mucking is not a sign of love.
This matter of the law makes more sense when you understand that the law is no longer the way we relate to God in our daily lives. I suppose we could debate for months each individual law and whether we should keep it or not. But that's not the point. (I'm convinced no one in this thread doesn't cut the hair on the sides of their head, or only wear clothes of one material anyway). That would be a continuation of trying to relate to God through the written word, the way that Paul says we longer serve God.
"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." (Romans 7:6)
This kind of demolishes the argument for the oral law being the 'law' that that was against us and was nailed to the cross. If I understand correctly, the oral law wasn't even written down until well after the resurrection of Christ, after the letters of the NT. And 'written code' in context is clearly referring to the 'law' of Moses, not Rabbinical traditions.
The questions we should be asking is how do we fulfill the intent of the written code (how to serve God) in the new way of the Spirit? The law of muzzling an ox is a perfect example of how fulfilling the law in the new way of the Spirit can be different from fulfilling it under the letter of the law.
One of the scriptures that really sealed this all up for me personally is Galatians 3:25...
"Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." (Galatians 3:25)
What's so interesting about this passage is the Greek word 'supervision' is rendered 'instructor' in 1 Cor. 4:15 As true as it is to understand the old law as an instructor, or instructions (Torah), Paul plainly says we are no longer under the supervision (the instruction) of the law. You can see how the word rendered 'supervision' in the Galatians passage is used here:
"For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. (1 Cor. 4:15 KJV)
For all of us, this has to be settled in the scriptures themselves. We must all establish our own convictions based on the Word of God. My convictions rest heavily on the two passages I shared. I think we have to be really honest with what Paul is saying in the Galatians 3 passage, particularly. For me it doesn't get much clearer. The use of the Greek word that can be rendered 'instruction' makes it pretty clear what Paul is trying to say to us. Don't you agree that word comes the closest to the Hebrew equivalent of torah? It's the closest thing I know of that plainly says we are not led by Torah anymore.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 5/4/2008 9:52:17 AM >
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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