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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 11:41:27 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 2634
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
quote:
Some laws changed, and actually became more stringent.
If the laws are "done away with", you can't pick and choose.
Otherwise, Jesus only partially "did away" with the laws.
Selective interpretation. That's a sin we all carry.
I was responding to a composite posting.
So, my apologies that it seems one on one.
Many posts keep saying in many ways "We're not under the law."
But keep defending views that oppose the arguments made.
So, again, I apologize.
< Message edited by Lapidoth -- 5/5/2008 12:40:22 PM >
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 12:17:42 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 1953
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
Some laws changed, and actually became more stringent.
If the laws are "done away with", you can't pick and choose.
Otherwise, Jesus only partially "did away" with the laws.
Selective interpretation. That's a sin we all carry.
Selective interpretation ALRIGHT... by you sir !!!
Read what I said...a law became more difficult to keep.
Show me where I said "done away with" please.
Where did I say or imply "pick and choose" ?
Please take more time to read before replying.
Knee-jerk dissent is unbecoming and unproductive.
_____________________________
The church of Jesus Christ is about Jesus Christ.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 12:33:27 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 2634
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
Please take more time to read before replying.
Knee-jerk dissent is unbecoming and unproductive.
I totally agree.
My comments are taken in just such a similar spirit.
That's why I don't respond. Everyone can feel they are the victor.
But, personal pop shots are vanity.
I repent that I probably did that, but wasn't intentional.
If you want to discuss items that are not on a personal level,
I'll gladly "come and reason together."
quote:
Selective interpretation ALRIGHT... by you sir !!!
Ping Pong posts are also nonproductive.
Your serve.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 1:51:11 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 6:19:30 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1202
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
It's funny we are so opposed to God's Commandments "in the name of the Spirit"
that we don't give a hoot about the 2.4 million laws we are under in America.
What's there to give a hoot about? Not following how this fits in the discussion. Maybe it does, we just need to know. You seem reluctant to take advantage of this free forum to explain your convictions. Even if you don't want to share with a select few (me perhaps? As far as I know I've never offended you), why would you not want to share for the sake of others? There are those here who have offended me, but I haven't taken my ball home because of them. I'm just relunctant to throw the ball directly to them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
We can't say "I'm not under that law." What we are trying to say is, "I'm not under God's law."
Paul plainly said we are no longer under the supervision (the guidance, the governance, the instruction) of the law. The law is not what we consult to guide our daily behavior anymore. God has made a new way to relate to Him.
But don't confuse this new way as an attempt to follow written commands of the old law. They are different. That's what this is all about. Literal law keepers see written words. Those who walk in the Spirit see the character of Christ. Don't let the similarities of both mislead you into thinking they are the same. They are not. But they can often look the same on the outside. I'm convinced that's where people fail to understand this whole matter. If you see me doing things required in the law don't think for a minute I'm 'following' the law. I may be fulfilling it's requirements, but I am not 'following' it. This is the key to understanding life in the Spirit vs. life under the law.
God is seeking those who worship in 'Spirit and in truth'. The very example that He used to illustrate this new way of worship was the fact that worship would no longer be external in the place commanded in the law. By contrast, worship would now be a matter of worship from the heart. Worship is now spiritual. The old commands for external worship were shadows to help us understand the requirements for true worship inside a person. That requirement can be summed up in one word...believe. Believing fulfills the spiritual intent behind all the Old Covenant rules of worship, and in a far truer and sincere way than the external order of worship under the Levitical system.
Commands for worship written on the heart look different in how they are acted out. When a person worships in the new way of the heart we see...love, not days and weeks and seasons of Church meetings--potentially insincere and deceitful external worship.
Animal sacrifice was once a commanded way to worship God. That command finds it's true fulfillment in believing that Jesus gave His life as the required sacrifice for sin. It's spiritual fulfillment looks vastly different than it's weaker, literal fulfillment, and means infinately more to God. So much so, we don't even sacrifice animals anymore (by God's decision, not ours).
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Yet, all the prophets (the true prophets) call the Israelites "back" to the Torah.
Prior to the revelation of the New Covenant would you expect the prophets to call the people back to anything other than Torah? There is no New Covenant yet to call them too. But we do see in the New Testament the call to the New Covenant and it's new way of worship--in Spirit and in truth.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
The parameters and blessings are in the Torah. Throw out the Torah, and you've got nothing.
No. The Bible says in effect, 'throw out the Levitical priesthood and you have nothing'. 'With a change in the Priesthood there must be a change in the law (instructions for worship)'. The old order of external worship, centered around the system of temple sacrifices, is now fulfilled (like the animal sacrifices themselves) in the new way of the Spirit. And we both know the spiritual fulfillment looks nothing like the literal. No argument there. It's a valuable precedent to understand what it means to walk in spiritual reality over and above mere externals.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
...I could give a reward to anyone who can prove that the Sabbath is no longer as ascribed
in the 4th Commandment, and not the first day. I used to twist it all to say that's the lord's day
myself. But, the Sabbath has never changed, the 4th Commandment is still the 4th Commandment.
You'll have to take this matter up with those who actually believe that Sunday is the new Sabbath day. There are many of us who know Saturday is the day called the Sabbath but that we are free of the literal requirements that once accompanied it. Jesus is the appointed 'day', the time and season that has come, that we must rest and congregate in to avoid the wrath of God--but a day of the week? Worship of God was once reckoned by the seemingly endless, repeating cycle of the moon. It had it's time and season, but like the fading moon in the west when the sun rises in the east, Christ's glory is the light of a new day that will never come to an end. That's the kingdom we've been called to.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
The fact that cults keep Sabbath and not immitate Sunday keeping is telling.
I've purposely avoided this to not offend anybody, but it does seem a preoccupation with the law and end-times studies are the hobby horses of the cults. I have a feeling you meant it to mean 'even they understand these things'. They're choking on the baby milk of Jesus as saviour, and we are to expect them to understand matters of NT liberty in the Holy Spirit? They don't even have the Holy Spirit (having denied salvation in Christ). That, my friend, is the telling thing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Anyway, we can twist the doctrines to suit ourselves, but the Kingdom will be governed by the laws
of God, whether we like it or not.
Whose twisting doctrine? I just go by the plain words of the NT. We are no longer under the supervision/ instruction of the old law anymore. We are now supervised by the Spirit within us. Don't confuse NT teaching of what the principles of the Spirit are (love, joy, peace, patience...) with written law, particularly the written law of the OT.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 5/5/2008 6:30:35 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 6:23:02 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1507
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I came across an interesting article that lists all the 613 Torah commands. The link is
http://lionlamb.net/v3/gz.php?f=files/TorahCommandments.htm click on 613 Laws.
Of those 613 laws how many are applicable for today? After browsing through this list, I find that a lot do not apply to us today because of location (we aren't in Israel), no Temple, some pertained to the Levitical priesthood...
Of the one's that may apply to us...what's wrong with observing them today?
This question is especially directed to our brothers and sisters who say that the Law is done away with, Sabbath observance is ceremonial, the Feasts are unless and unnecessary etc., etc.
Greetings,
quote:
Of the one's that may apply to us...what's wrong with observing them today?
Absolutly nothing, most of them we do without even knowing we are doing them anyway, in the Lord 
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 7:16:57 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1507
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
Whose twisting doctrine? I just go by the plain words of the NT. We are no longer under the supervision/ instruction of the old law anymore. We are now supervised by the Spirit within us.
Don't confuse NT teaching of what the principles of the Spirit are (love, joy, peace, patience...) with written law, particularly the written law of the OT.
Greetings,
That’s a bit rounded IMHO,
you started off asking Lap to share his convictions, which are shared by many, even in Christian environments, but then condemn whatever you want him to share, by commanding saying “”Don't confuse NT teaching of what the principles of the Spirit are with written law, particularly the written law of the OT. Then what do you want him to say??? 
Here is the principal of the HS, if there is such a thing....
The Bible speaks in abundance that the written Law of God has not and never will change. Mt 5:18
The HS is the same in the OT as He is the NT.
For example:
The entire parable of the sower is in legal expression, and is no different than what Moses reiterated to the children of Israel concerning the blessing and the curse.
quote:
Don't confuse NT teaching of what the principles of the Spirit are (love, joy, peace, patience...) with written law, particularly the written law of the OT.
What does a principle of the HS mean; I never head that one before, truthfully,
The scripture reads that the HS follows anothers authority
In John 16:13 - Show Context
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will :guide you: into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, (the law) but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.= Jesus Christ
..........The hearing mentioned in what the HS would speak is The Word of God, and all truth of the Word of God is written in the 66 books,
.........The authority mentioned above is that to which the HS is bound to, and that is the will of God, it and is found in the OT, and the will of God is to be worshiped in Sprit and in truth, which reiterates as
the way
Or the way Moses commanded the children of Israel … by the way he spoke to them.
Jesus said ….I am… the way ….so Jesus teaches us how to relate to the Father by our words, which is no different than what Moses said to the children of Israel and commanded them the way to speak.
Therefore the HS (the Law)is subject to the authority of Jesus Christ, who was with Moses when that principal in the Law was given to Moses at Mt Sinai
The written Law of God has to do with the way words are spoken in Sprit and in truth, and will never change.
Ephesians 2:11-13
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
What is it that we have been brought near to???
It looks like …. the commonwealth of Israel
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 5/5/2008 7:23:50 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 9:33:23 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1202
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
...The Bible speaks in abundance that the written Law of God has not and never will change. Mt 5:18
The HS is the same in the OT as He is the NT.
Then how are we to explain the change in the law that we all know has occurred and which Hebrews plainly says has occurred? It's clear that one of the two things that Jesus said must occur before a jot or tiddle could pass from the law has indeed occurred. Either the world has passed away, or the fulfillment has occurred. Take your pick.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
What does a principle of the HS mean; I never head that one before, truthfully,
God's new way of serving Him is to be guided by principles of character (peace, long-suffering, etc...), not hard and fast rules addressing specific situations. The principles of the Spirit can be summed up in one word...'love does no harm to it's neighbor'. So now instead of detailing a list of things not to do that hurt other people, God gives us an all encompassing principle that governs all the situations we encounter in this life. It's a much more effective method of moving a man to obedience, as oppossed to trying to write a law for various situations we may encounter.
The Holy Spirit has written things like 'peace', 'joy', 'patience', and 'love', 'faithfulness' on our hearts. It is these things that guide us now. These virtues are the traits of a heart made clean by the Holy Spirit. A clean heart means clean hands (outward behavior). If you clean the inside of the cup, the outside will be clean to. Not the other way around as the written law attempted to do.
I don't know if you have kids or not, but as parents we can't dictate to our children how to handle each and every situtaion in life. If we depended on that kind of instruction and then launched them into a life of their own they would sink fast. But if we equip them with godly character, they can make their own correct judgements about how to handle life and not have to rely on mom and dad's list of rules. Not hurting other people is the guiding principle of life now that governs our decision making. And the Holy Spirit, our coach, is always there encouraging us and speaking these principles to us. He's not speaking law. He is present and speaking in the form of godly impulses of care and compassion for others. This is the glory of the New Covenant--the indwelling Holy Spirit literally changing who we are, not reciting a list of written laws for us to obey.
The confusion comes in because some people think that being guided by that principle means exactly the same as following the written law. No. Jesus clearly taught us that the law is an inadequate guide for the situations of life, and that you had to live a greater life of righteousness than what the law commanded. There are just too many situations to write a law about, and written law is aimed at outward behavior, not the heart, the seat of all motivation for human behavior.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
..........The hearing mentioned in what the HS would speak is The Word of God, and all truth of the Word of God is written in the 66 books
You are aware that some of the Word contained in the Bible replaces other Word found in the 66 books of the Bible, aren't you?
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 10:34:46 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1462
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
Manna: Will any of these rituals/ceremonies bring me closer to The King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Will they enhance and improve upon the indwelling of The Holy Spirit or the sealed guarantee that I possess unto the Day of Redemption ?
Gypsy: This is hard to say, why did Jesus bother to keep them??
Hey...perhaps ….He was a Jew!!
Sure, but Manna , fortunately for him ;), isn’t.
quote:
Think of this way... that peace during the Christmas season when we praise Him, is it real peace that is of the HS, or is the peace that is brought about by Idol worship???
If we are talking about commercial aspect of the holiday mostly promoted by retailers and churches that like to entertain their members with plays and elaborate "show-off" events then Christmas and Hannukah celebrations are both the sheer Idol Worship – idol of self pleasing, greed, envy, stupidity, pride etc..
As for the birth of Chirst -I remember and thank God for it in the end of September and in the end of December. And at least once every day of the year, if I mess up badly – twice.
Would you care to elaborate what msg you trying to convey,dear brother. I am not following as of yet.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 10:37:37 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1462
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
Of those 613 laws how many are applicable for today? ..............
Of the one's that may apply to us...what's wrong with observing them today?
Oh, nothing! thinking it’s wrong to observe is the idea I, for one, never advocated. Many Jews those that grew up in Judaism, esp. more strict orthodox-ish versions of it, see the observance of those Laws as something inseparable from their relationship to God.
It would be ridiculous and mean and unloving , and totally counterproductive to try to stop them- why?! it’s not "what you eat or don’t eat" that matters..
What is objected here is the idea that those who never observed it should all of a sudden do it. Or why would I that quit doing it should restart.No decent explanation yet been given as to why.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 10:53:57 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1462
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
What the learning of the Feasts, etc. does is give a better understanding.
More understanding can bring a "getting to know God better" by "knowing His ways."
That probably didn't come out right. But, everytime we hold a Passover, etc. service,
everyone we invite walk away saying, "Wow, that all makes sense now."
But darling, all due respect, that is your subjective opinion, wich I respect, but don’t share, for I experientially know that it never ever done anything for me as for learning who the true Messaih is! ( Reading the NT did)I -myself!- can built a sukkah so good ...similar quality huts in NY City pass for a piece of real estate rentable for 1500 a month. My family and majority of friends still observe all the feasts,still reject Jesus.
quote:
It's more connecting the dots in all the things we're told and taught. And sometimes when the dots are connected, the "traditions of men" are exposed.
yes, that is very gutsy of you to say considering there are messianics here. Many of them celebrate things that are just traditions, not found in the Bible. And to many to be M-cs it’s just a fashionable thing to do, to be "seen of men". Spiritual Style of the season. M will be last year model and they will switch to a different hemline :)
Some M are true believers. But that is not being mess. makes them such, but true faith in Jesus.
quote:
Ezekiel repented when it was shown to him, but we start yelling "legalistic!"
As for yelling trust me on this I an outyell anyone here- I scream “ legalistic” only if I see someone forgetting love and mercy , etc. for the traditions of men . If they don’t forget the " Love your brethren as yourself and Love God above else" they can eat, drink, pray, observe whatever they want, I will never accuse them of legalism.
quote:
How can we understand God's ways if we are never taught them, or worse, "kept from them?" Yes, Sir. Taught, kept, done, understood. Dismissed as useless.
That is why I sincerely interested in opinions as “what exactly does it give you that it doesn’t give me?”
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 10:56:43 AM
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LBolt
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I'm hearing valid comments on both sides of the spectrum on the surface, however when you read Roman 2 key verses 10-29 and 3:31 et al. and then read Galations there seems to be some conflicting statements regarding the Law. There is mention of it being a "tutor", that we are free from it etc, etc. It was these scriptures that "toke me for a loop" in the beginning of my understanding of Torah. It was hard for me, for instance to reconcile Romans 2-3; *Rom. 7:16-25 and other passages in Paul's writings that appear contradictory. I don't know if I'm making much sense here?
Paul says in Romans 7:25: ...So with my mind I serve the Law of God... This is clearly talking about the Torah.
Paul says in Romans 2 speaks of the gentiles who do the Law not having the Law condemning those who have it and don't do it.
verse 17-18 speak of how it instructs you on how to behave. (Please forgive my paraphrases) Romans 7:12 speaks very positively of it.
Now you turn over to Romans chapters 3,6,7 and Galations 3-4, there appears to be somewhat of a different attitude towards the Law. I believe this is the crux of the misunderstanding that we are having with one another.
One camp says that the Torah is valid for today taken in it's proper context and another camp says that the New Covenant instituted by Messiah Yahshua made the 1st 5 books antiquated. It's fulfilled and therefore done away with and no longer valid. Sabbath is no longer commanded because Jesus is the Sabbath... Sabbath is everyday for the New Covenant believer.
We see the "literal Law keepers" on one side and "Law is invalid group" on the other side in a tug of war of words and if I can get the best poke shot in I win.
Those above scriptures, can we begin to dissect and analyze it. I like to hear from both sides. The bulk of it coming from Romans and Galations. You know those scriptures we use to throw at each other to prove our points but when you compare them side by side appear contradictory.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 11:13:15 AM
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LBolt
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Joined: 11/30/2007
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31 Not to make human forms even for decorative purposes Exodus 20:20 Yithro 17
88 Not to do prohibited labor on the seventh day Exodus 20:10 Yithro 17 1 To know there is a God Exodus 20:2 Yithro 17
2 Not to entertain thoughts of other gods besides Him Exodus 20:3 Yithro 17
27 Not to worship idols in the manner they are worshiped Exodus 20:5 Yithro 17
28 Not to worship idols in the four ways we worship God Exodus 20:5 Yithro 17
29 Not to make an idol for yourself Exodus 20:4 Yithro 17
91 To sanctify the day with Kiddush and Havdalah Exodus 20:8 Yithro 17
210 Not to take God's Name in vain Exodus 20:6 Yithro 17
302 Not to build the altar with stones hewn by metal Exodus 20:23 Yithro 17
303 Not to climb steps to the altar Exodus 20:26 Yithro 17
473 Not to kidnap Exodus 20:13 Yithro 17
482 Not to murder Exodus 20:13 Yithro 17
503 Not to insult or harm a sincere convert with words Exodus 22:20 Yithro 17
576 Not to testify falsely Exodus 20:13 Yithro 17
584 Respect your father or mother Exodus 20:12 Yithro 17
18 Not to oppress the weak Exodus 21:22 Mishpatim 18 26 Not to blaspheme Exodus 22:27 Mishpatim 18
32 Not to turn a city to idolatry Exodus 23:13 Mishpatim 18
46 Not to swear in the name of an idol Exodus 23:13 Mishpatim 18
58 Not to let them dwell in the land of Israel Exodus 23:33 Mishpatim 18
77 To serve the Almighty with prayer daily Exodus 23:25 Mishpatim 18
87 To rest on the seventh day Exodus 23:12 Mishpatim 18
I just copied a random sample, So Odeliya, you are saying that the highlighted above are antiquated and useless? Sabbath observance even though Jesus and Paul made it their custom do (not to be saved but because they were saved) is useless for those who aren't Jews?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 11:19:23 AM
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Odeliya
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Lbolt, please reread my 3 posts above carefullly.I explained, in many detail, my position. It has nothing to do with what you think i believe.
Dont make statements without reading other's opinions and understanding them first.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 11:25:31 AM
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LBolt
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Sorry maybe I misunderstanding your position or am not quite clear. I guess I can assume the highlighted portions are good things to observe.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 11:32:25 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1462
Joined: 8/10/2005
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No problem. Who's perfect, LB? I do have a mirror so see myself as well :))
quote:
2 Not to entertain thoughts of other gods besides Him Exodus 20:3 Yithro 17
27 Not to worship idols in the manner they are worshiped Exodus 20:5 Yithro 17
28 Not to worship idols in the four ways we worship God Exodus 20:5 Yithro 17
29 Not to make an idol for yourself Exodus 20:4 Yithro 17
91 To sanctify the day with Kiddush and Havdalah Exodus 20:8 Yithro 17
210 Not to take God's Name in vain Exodus 20:6 Yithro 17
302 Not to build the altar with stones hewn by metal Exodus 20:23 Yithro 17
303 Not to climb steps to the altar Exodus 20:26 Yithro 17
473 Not to kidnap Exodus 20:13 Yithro 17
482 Not to murder Exodus 20:13 Yithro 17
....etc.....
I just copied a random sample, So Odeliya, you are saying that the highlighted above are antiquated and useless? Sabbath observance even though Jesus and Paul made it their custom do (not to be saved but because they were saved) is useless for those who aren't Jews?
etc...I know you arent trying to say I am for murdering and worshipping other gods:)
What I referred as useless – please, let's read posts before commenting and read them in context! - is not the laws themselves but thinking that legalistically obeying the Letter of the Law without the spirit is useless and powerless to bring one closer to God . It never will.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 11:36:32 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 2634
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
One camp says that the Torah is valid for today taken in it's proper context and another camp says that the New Covenant instituted by Messiah Yahshua made the 1st 5 books antiquated. It's fulfilled and therefore done away with and no longer valid. Sabbath is no longer commanded because Jesus is the Sabbath... Sabbath is everyday for the New Covenant believer.
We see the "literal Law keepers" on one side and "Law is invalid group" on the other side in a tug of war of words and if I can get the best poke shot in I win.
Those above scriptures, can we begin to dissect and analyze it. I like to hear from both sides. The bulk of it coming from Romans and Galations. You know those scriptures we use to throw at each other to prove our points but when you compare them side by side appear contradictory.
I'm in total agreement that the arguments are just viewpoints.
I developed a rule of thumb in study that if passages "seem" to contradict one another I "do not" have the correct meanings.
So I either study harder until I can see where there is no contradiction, or I put it on a back burner until I hear or see a good
answer to the questions they pose.
We can't rightly discuss the scriptures because we are too caught up in proving I'm right and you're wrong.
inadvertantly, I know I appear the same way, but I am trying to bring a different look at some of the situations.
Yet, if we are only looking from a pro-law or anti-law viewpoint, neither side can discuss it any other way.
So, I guess we continue to chase our tails. lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 1:01:31 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 499
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
In John 16:13 - Show Context
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will :guide you: into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, (the law) but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.= Jesus Christ
Quite adding words that are not there. Which are the words in which you put in parenthesis.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 2:03:15 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Paul says in Romans 7:25: ...So with my mind I serve the Law of God... This is clearly talking about the Torah.
How do you know ?
Perhaps there is a GREATER law Paul refers to
_____________________________
The church of Jesus Christ is about Jesus Christ.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 2:58:50 PM
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LBolt
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Joined: 11/30/2007
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Don't take what I'm about to say as sarcasm or me trying to "win", if the Word of God as revealed to Paul is contained in the OT, is not the "Law of God" what is it then?
If there is another Law that was greater why did YHWH judge Israel and Judah severely for breaking His Law if it wasn't what God gave to Moses. Remember Duet. 30:11-20 called the Torah "God's laws." Is this a scribal error! Was there something I or Moses missed here!? Please read Duet. 30:11-20
Again my motive is not to be condemning or belittling in anyway. I thought that one of the jobs of the Holy Spirit is to guide into all truth and to have God's Law written on our hearts? There are several scriptures that reveal that "the Law is truth."
If there is another standard please show it to me. What is the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus if it is not the Word of God?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 3:14:05 PM
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LBolt
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Odeliya, I understand where you are coming from. Here the point that we've been trying to present. Those Feasts aren't about one's salvation, it's about our obedience and yes we see Messiah in them. He as well as the disciples did them and we are believers should do them as well. Not for an outward show but because he told us to. They are His feasts.
The fact that they serve as a greater purpose give more incentive but the purpose for anything we do for God should be motivated first by our love and fear of Him. Let all you do be done in love. I respect your position completely. I understand you come from a strong orthodox Judaism background and was subjected to many man-made, religious ordinances that never brought you closer to God.
I thank YHWH that you are saved and love and serve our Master! Regardless of what you may think about us "literal Law keepers" we love God and desire to serve Him with our whole heart as well. I come to learn that it's matter of how we understand the scriptures and how it is to be applied that produces the differences.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 4:16:53 PM
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Odeliya
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Joined: 8/10/2005
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Agreed with all you say, that is not under debate, LB.  I mention it regularly,3 times on this page alone that those who are used to strict observance and if it does make them feel closer to God should do it, of course!
Debate is about why does Torah camp thinks their way is better and that all should act as they do? Coherent explanations and Biblical support are welcome! I appreciate your humility and kindness, but it's not about being politically correct at any cost but rather learning from each other.
actually, I was progressive(or reformed? you call it I think);those are quite lax in comparison to Ort. but I know some really nutzoidal Orthos. But that's neither here no there, regardless what flavor of a Jew one is, keeping the Feasts etc. doesn’t help Jews to come to Christ. Only Christians sharing the gospel, or people reading NT themselves is what brings Jews to Jesus.
< Message edited by Odeliya -- 5/6/2008 4:24:26 PM >
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 6:52:53 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 499
Joined: 4/4/2006
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Lbolt I knew you get around to it. thid must be in your mind a salvation issue or you whould not have brought it up.
By the way hi.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 7:02:26 PM
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