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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 4:57:52 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 693
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God bless you, I greatly appreciate you Odeliyah...You keep a brother studying!! LOL
I was saved at the age of 7 in a missionary Baptist church through the witness of my grandmother. She went to be with the LORD in 1997. She had a tremendous influence on my life. I went to a "church of the Brethren" church for 8 1/2 years or so. Then a Baptist church. After that, I was grown and went to a spirit filled non-denominational church (Charismatic/Pentecostal) for about 11-12 years and most recently, for about a year I've attended a Messianic church.
Kinda got around huh?! LOL!
A buddy of mine challenged me regarding Torah and I took him to task and accepted his challenge. I bought books galore to counter his argument only to be left with questions and no viable answers. I used Dakes Annotated Study book. Got the whole collection of the Anti-Nicea fathers, read their comments and then read from various Messianic scholars to the contrary. I went into a history search of those times and Constantine and began to be somewhat suspect. I began researching the Bible, not taking single scriptures but whole passages trying to understand them better. All the while refuting my friend with similar arguments I see posted on this thread.
Paul was a huge stumbling block to me. It seemed that he contradicted himself so much. Especially Romans, Corinthians and Galations. Romans especially perplexed me. How could the Law be sin and death and at the same time holy, righteous and just. "Works of the Law" phrase also stumped me big time.
Even after I became convinced that Torah was good to practice, I still had issues with Paul. It wasn't until I spoke with a Jewish believer from Israel, of whom I bought his commentary on the book of Galations, that I began to understand a whole lot better. I still had problems with 2 Corinthians 3 (the whole chapter). I debated him a bit and then when he broke down verses 6-18, it was like scales falling off my eyes.
I had the more and more confidence. This guy was a shepharite (???) orthodox teacher who got saved and was steeped in Judaism. It was he as well as others who the Holy Ghost help me to see that Pharisiac Law and customs was often referred to in Paul's and Jesus' rebuttals.
He showed me that to those practicing Judaism they follow 2 Laws. The Written Torah of the Bible and the Oral Law of the Rabbi's. That there were basically 4 classifications of Oral Law.
Halacha/ot- which in his words, "a law or laws derived directly from a manipulated interpretation of Scripture or Midrash. These were somewhat filtered through Hillel and Shammia
Minhagim- customs are traditions enacted as law. "Minhag Yisrael torah hi" is the axiom (a custom in Israel is Torah).
Takanot and Gezerot- which are enactments and decrees of the Rabbis (basically invented on the whim) is Torah therefore binding.
Ma'asim- the deeds or actions of Rabbi's or sages, justifying how a tradition should be observed. This was derived from fables, incidents and storiesof Rabbis and not the Holy Writ.
He stated that there is a Talmudic passage which states something to the effect, "My son! Be careful concerning Rabbinical decrees even more than Torah...the Torah contains prohibitions...But anyone who violates a Rabbinical decree is worthy of death."
When I read that I said , "Man, that was a bold statement and toke a lot of nerve to write!" Basically the Rabbinical law was exalted above the Word of God "making the Word of God of no effect by tradition."
Now I see why Messiah was soo hard on the religious leaders of His day! The people was (and still are) soo steeped in man-made tradition it made it hard for them to accept the true word Jesus was speaking. They felt that they could never get close to God because of soo many rules and laws! Sadly, the church is soo steeped in man-made pagan teachings today until it turns some of our Jewish brethren away!
That's why when Paul says, "For as many as are of the works (Ma'asim=the Hebrew equivalent to the Greek) of the law are under the curse... Galations 3:10, I can properly ascertain that he is referring to Oral Law and those who adhere to it yet accepted Yahshua as Messiah. They were telling people that the had to be circumcised after the customs (Minhagim) in to be saved! This cause a great controversy in the church which is why Paul brought it to the others Apostles/ elders (Acts 15) which is explain why used the tone of voice that he did to the Galations. They were beginning to fall for that mess!
Any Messianic believer who who falls into that mess I would admonish you today, "Are you saved by the works of the law or the hearing of faith."
Uh oh, I went on a tangent...sorry!  This is why I can confidently respond to your posts and only hope that it is received in love and not in arrogance because that is not my intention at all. I went through some gut-wrenching study in order to understand this. I don't expect people to readily "buy into" what I'm saying.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 11:29:44 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1146
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I assure you, I have given your post#3237 a lot of thought. It appears from that and other posts that your concern regarding those who choose to keep Ha Torah(the written word) is that some require others to do the same and miss Ha Ruach's(The Spirit's) intent in the various mitzot(commands).
I don't think I've conversed with anyone in these forums who keeps Ha Torah as a completely optional form of worship they have found beneficial for them. All seem convinced that God really does want all of us to worship Him according to the old law.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
My concern is that some of those who choose to keep "the spirit" of the law require others to do the same and wonder off in any of the 360 degrees on the compass.
That's what's so sure about what I defend. The New Testament plainly tells us we are all required to walk according to the Spirit. It's the calling we all share without difference or exception. And Paul plainly tells us what that means. It means walking in love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, and so on.
I don't see how that can cause a person to wander off in the wrong direction. It's so clear that it's undebatable (which is probably why it doesn't make for good discussion in the forums). The fruit of the Spirit is the new instruction, the new way for serving God. The law was a veil that hindered the true light of the nature of the Holy Spirit. You could see glimpses of it, but not the full glory of it.
I've written in the margin of my Bible next to Galatians 5, 'let love be your guide' to summarize the entire passage that contrasts walking in the flesh with the surety of walking in the Spirit. "So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. (Gal. 5:16)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Given the nature of forums and our individual concerns, I will make a deal with you, a covenant if you will. As long as you stick with me and try to stay focused as one would with a lazer, I will do the same and we will discuss every line of post #3237, one at a time. In this way we can serve as an example to others on how to avoid the two aforementioned extremes and how to have a civil discussion of these matters.
Deal or No Deal.
Deal. My lazer (laser?) is focused and ready to go.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2008 9:43:46 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1146
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I'm going to attempt to discuss Romans 7, because this chapter is often cited as one of the texts that teach that we are free from the bondage of the Law. I believe as well as other scholars, that this is one of the most misunderstood and misinterpreted Pauline texts. Romans 7:1-14, somewhere in these verses it says something to effect of "being delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in the newness of the spirit and not in the oldness of the letter." He turns around in verse 7 and says, "Is the law sin? GOD FORBID. Nay,I had not known sin...
The law being bondange to fallen man does not mean the law is sin. I'm confident there is not a single Christian in this forum that would say that. Nobody is using the argument 'the law is sin therefore we don't have to follow it anymore'. Don't misunderstand, that's not the argument. Not even close.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Verse 11-14 is the key, "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it (sin) slew me. Wherefore the law is holy (now God told us in Leviticus and Peter to be holy because YAH is holy), and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good (the Torah) made death unto me? GOD FORBID. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is (not was) good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. *****For we know (at least we should know  ...some of us knows) that the law is SPIRITUAL: BUT I AM CARNAL, SOLD under SIN.
Likewise for this. No one is suggesting the requirements of the law are somehow not spiritual or good. In and of themselves the requirements of the law represent a noble and just and righteous purpose. And in fact, the justice and righteosness of God is seen in the laws that separate fallen and unholy man from God! Nothing wrong with that. It's just that the law is simply not the way to produce godly character in a man and bring him close to God.
The stumbling block is understanding that the new way God has given has replaced the old way, not come along side of it. There's too many laws that are no longer in effect to prove this. The law is the just and holy and righteous indictment against man, not his vindication. That was never it's intention, even if you could keep it. A true law keeper obeyed every law that separated him from God. That's the irony of the law. Keeping or not keeping it keeps you cut off from fellowship with God...God's way of saying, "this ain't the way to me, folks". It simply isn't the vehicle through which to approach God. Being Spirit-filled or not, it doesn't matter. Read on...
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
What are we in bondage to, the Law or to the sin nature or "the flesh" which cause us to sin? Paul is talking about death to our flesh. Not death to the Torah or Law! To illustrate his point, Paul uses an analogy of a marriage relationship in which when a man dies the woman is released from all the laws relating to her union.
We were in debt to both the law and the flesh. We both understand what it means to be in bondage to sin. But what many don't understand is the bondage to requirements of the law that you can do little or nothing about, even if you have the will to fully obey them. Laws of uncleanness regarding bodily discharges effectively lock you away from approaching God and His people. That's the bondage we've been released from! The bondage of laws that cut you off from God.
As I've said, the law effectively cuts you off from God, not brings you close (that is if one really follows the law). You know the law. You are aware of the laws that distance a person from God, not bring them closer. If you insist that the law is still in effect (to the letter) then you cannot just wipe away or ignore the laws of separation found in the old covenant. And if they are no longer in effect then they must have been fully fulfilled in some way (for the law cannot be broken) and no longer require continued fulfillment.
This is the crux of what it means to no longer be under the continuing debt of the requirements of the law. Paul says the continuing debt we are now under is "the continuing debt to love one another" (Romans 13:8) But the literal laws of uncleanness, and other regulations governing external worship, I am no longer indebted to.
It is these laws of uncleanness that increase the case for a need for deliverance and rescue from the bondange of the law, not just the sin nature. What's sinful about a bodily discharge? The bondage of bodily functions separating you from God is an illustration of how 'by nature we are objects of wrath'. And the only way to be released from the body that brings the wrath of God is to become a new creation effectively releasing one from the letter of the law concerning bodily discharges.
Of course this has to be understood figuratively (spiritually) the way God intended because we still have those bodily discharges, yet we are free to approach God because those laws of discharges no longer have authority over us. Do you see what I'm saying? One or the other had to happen. Either I stopped having discharges, or the law is no longer in effect over me. Pretty hard to just push aside that kind of reasoning.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Brad Young, a Jewish scholar, points out that the saying, "when a person dies he is free from the law and commandments", that this was a well known concept in halakhah (oral law). Paul writing to Jews dispersed in Rome (as well as non-Jews) understood this thought from the sages and it spoke of one's flesh being released from the evil inclination. The rabbi's taught that while a person is alive, he is a servant to God and the flesh but when he dies, he is set free to serve only God. The Master taught us that we can not serve two masters, in Matthew 6.
This whole chapter is talking about dying to the flesh (sin, which is transgression of the Law as I John teaches).
When we accept Yahshua we are buried with Him by baptism into death:that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life...knowing this that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not SERVE SIN.
For he that is dead is freed from sin...
My God, I want to memorize chapters 6 and 7, this is powerful!!! I sense the presence of God flowing through these very words!! Verse 10 says, "For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, he liveth unto GOD. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be indeed dead unto sin (transgression of the Torah), but alive unto GOD through Yahshua HaMosiach our Adonai.
Chapter 7 is an extension of chapter 6. They were not separated but this was one letter. Chapter and verse numbering were added later to help. Paul is still in the same line of thought. We are servants of righteousness!! What is our righteous? The righteousness of God in Christ Jesus! Deut 6:24-25 says, "And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that He might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. And it SHALL BE OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (this did come from GOD), if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our GOD, as He hath commanded us.
Sponge, you shared earlier Romans 7:6 and sought an explanation and that we avoided this...this is my mine explanation to you and others regarding those passages of scripture.
I Cor. 7:19, in a nutshell, was Abraham justified be getting circumcised? NO! He was circumcised 24 years later. Circumcision according to the customs of the rabbis definitely amounts to nothing. Besides, most males are circumcised at birth, why would I need to get recircumcised? This is a another teaching.
Anyway, I've got lots to do today, and I don't want to ruin your eyes with long posts, but can't you see how the illustration of marriage is espescially useful because the person who remarries by all outward appearances is violating the law, yet because a death has occurred they have in fact violated no law whatsoever. And this is exactly what I've been trying to say.
Life in the new way of the Spirit as a new creation of God often gives the appearance of violating the written law. The illustration of remarrying, and the laws of uncleanness are perfect examples. By all outward appearances I should be in violation of the written law because I still have bodily discharges, yet they don't separate me from God, and I don't go through the prescribed periods of separation or cleansing. But we will both agree I am not in violation of the written code, having been released from that code by the finished work of Christ, not the cessation of the discharges.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/17/2008 8:26:01 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1636
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
That's what's so sure about what I defend. The New Testament plainly tells us we are all required to walk according to the Spirit. It's the calling we all share without difference or exception. And Paul plainly tells us what that means. It means walking in love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, and so on.
I don't see how that can cause a person to wander off in the wrong direction.
Greetings,
quote:
The New Testament plainly tells us we are all required to walk according to the Spirit.
According to the parable of the sower, That is by reason the OT is revealed in the NT .
quote:
And Paul plainly tells us what that means.
Actually it was not Paul, but when he explained what the meanings were by the HS, why then did he explain it by quoting the Torah,
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 8:52:12 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 573
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I still believe that you who say we must keep the laws. Do not have a true understanding of them at all. And don't try to say I don't try to keep the first ten.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 9:19:06 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 573
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quote:
That's why when Paul says, "For as many as are of the works (Ma'asim=the Hebrew equivalent to the Greek) of the law are under the curse... Galations 3:10, I can properly ascertain that he is referring to Oral Law and those who adhere to it yet accepted Yahshua as Messiah. They were telling people that the had to be circumcised after the customs (Minhagim) in to be saved! This cause a great controversy in the church which is why Paul brought it to the others Apostles/ elders (Acts 15) which is explain why used the tone of voice that he did to the Galations. They were beginning to fall for that mess!
Either Paul was a person who was like me a man who is bad with grammmer or he would have written it into his writings. Don't you think?
Paul was trying to get you and everyone else from saying " Well I keep the Torah so I should go to heaven." When it has been written a million times. If that be the case then were can The anointed one say it was me and me only is why you are here in heaven. There is no works except what Christ did on the cross. Which get's you to even have fellowship with tthe Father.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 9:26:08 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 573
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quote:
O.K, I'm going to take a stab at this. I recall state that the Law of the Spirit of life is Torah. I contended that we should follow the Torah because has not changed. The Laws and Feasts were given for our instruction in doctrine and moral conduct. I Tim. 3:15-17. The feasts were not only for worship and commorating events that happen, they also serve as rehearsels for events to come. In Lev. 23, two hebrew words stand out, one is miqra and the other is moedim. Miqra means convocations, gatherings, REHEARSALS... Moedim means appointed times, seasons etc.
Went to that verse you put up there and guess i must have version that hasn't been written yet. But please show me where the word you torah is there? In fact there is no 17 at all.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 9:35:36 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 573
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
Brad Young, a Jewish scholar, points out that the saying, "when a person dies he is free from the law and commandments", that this was a well known concept in halakhah (oral law). Paul writing to Jews dispersed in Rome (as well as non-Jews) understood this thought from the sages and it spoke of one's flesh being released from the evil inclination. The rabbi's taught that while a person is alive, he is a servant to God and the flesh but when he dies, he is set free to serve only God. The Master taught us that we can not serve two masters, in Matthew 6.
Who were the two masters was Jesus talking about in that phrase?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 10:02:40 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 693
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Mammon (which the love of it produces flesh works) and God. If you aren't serving God you are automatically, by process of elimination serving the flesh!
The point is you can't be a slave of sin and a slave of God at the same time! One mutually excludes the other. When Paul spoke of the word being profitable for reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness...they only had the TaNakH at that time. The NT wasn't wrote.
It is these Holy Scripture Paul is referring to that contains the instruction regarding Feasts, Sabbath, etc.
The Holy Scriptures in that verse is referring to the Old Testament, the Old Testament contains the Torah... So where as you don't see the word "Torah" in these verses it is inferred from the context. Why? They only had the OT.
You see where I'm coming from? Context is King my friend!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 10:19:37 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 573
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
Chapter 7 is an extension of chapter 6. They were not separated but this was one letter. Chapter and verse numbering were added later to help. Paul is still in the same line of thought. We are servants of righteousness!! What is our righteous? The righteousness of God in Christ Jesus! Deut 6:24-25 says, "And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that He might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. And it SHALL BE OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (this did come from GOD), if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our GOD, as He hath commanded us.
So you keep all of the laws which are written in Leviticus. And you accidently hold a grudge against your neighbor. Or you happen to get involed in a story which you may not have said it to begin with it. But you contintue it anyways and it wasn't true. Or you think like a true capitalist and actual get more money then you need (which is called greed). When it comes to your judgment day. Are you going to say to God "well I keep the other laws you had down very good" . Or Are you going to pleed the blood over them.
So like I say where is the boasting in keeping one tenth of the law.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 10:36:02 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 693
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O.K, I can go out and murder, disrespect my parents, Blaspheme, worship idols, steal...because I don't have to walk according to the Law? Your arguments are absurd! My point is we are supposed to be dead to sin (transgression of the Law) and alive to Christ. We don't continue in sin (transgression of Torah) that grace may abound.
People say if, "I keep one part of the Law, I bound to keep it all."
Well, when you lie, cheat and steal you are keeping one part of the Torah... 
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 12:19:43 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1146
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
...When Paul spoke of the word being profitable for reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness...they only had the TaNakH at that time. The NT wasn't wrote.
It is these Holy Scripture Paul is referring to that contains the instruction regarding Feasts, Sabbath, etc.
The Holy Scriptures in that verse is referring to the Old Testament, the Old Testament contains the Torah...
The argument that Paul's reference to the existing scriptures of the day means all of Torah is to be obeyed is a very weak argument. Obviously this has to be taken in the context of everything he has said about the role of the law in the life of the NT believer. Context is important. And that includes keeping it in the context of everything he has said about the written code. There are many laws that are no longer required to be fulfilled literally. A sweeping generalization that Paul is suggesting all of Torah is still binding by making reference to it is not a solid argument. I do not believe Torah is binding, but I find value in quoting it. How can one assume that Torah stands completely binding simply because one makes reference to it? Poor reasoning that is easily explained away.
Paul makes it clear we are not removed from the continuing debt to love one another. Clearly this is part of the Torah. That's not an issue. The debt we have been released from is the daily/ weekly/ monthly/ yearly cycles of external worship that once bound the people of God. All of these obligations for worship have found their perfect fulfillment 'once for all' in the giving of the Holy Spirit. That debt has been paid in full. We no longer owe it in the old way of the written code. We have secured Christ's payment for that debt. And the debt stays paid as long as you believe in that payment for that debt.
It's simply not fair or reasonable to come to the conclusion that since Paul made reference to Torah in the passage you cite that you can ignore everything else he says about what parts of Torah continue literally and which ones do not. It's not right to dismiss everything else Paul said specifically explaining how we are to continue in our debt to love (and even that through the new way of the Spirit, and not the old way of the law, mind you), and plainly saying we are not under the supervision of the written code anymore.
And this matter of circumcision. It's a clear obligation under the law that all males must be circumcised in order to partake in the Passover. This is hardly a Rabbinical add-on requirement. No circumcision means no participation in the required Passover observance. No Passover means no participation in the promises of Israel. Hardly a trite and misunderstood add-on requirement for the people of God under the law.
With this being true, what has happened now? Has the law regarding literal circumcision passed away, or did it find it's fulfillment in another way? One or the other has to be true, since it's clear from Paul's teaching that literal circumcision is no longer required as a condition to be a part of the Body of Christ, the people of God, as it once was. The Torah is not as intact and literally binding as you think it is.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 5/19/2008 12:31:42 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 12:21:25 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1636
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
O.K, I'm going to take a stab at this. I recall state that the Law of the Spirit of life is Torah. I contended that we should follow the Torah because has not changed. The Laws and Feasts were given for our instruction in doctrine and moral conduct. I Tim. 3:15-17. The feasts were not only for worship and commorating events that happen, they also serve as rehearsals for events to come. In Lev. 23, two Hebrew words stand out, one is miqra and the other is moedim. Miqra means convocations, gatherings, REHEARSALS... Moedim means appointed times, seasons etc.
Went to that verse you put up there and guess i must have version that hasn't been written yet. But please show me where the word you torah is there? In fact there is no 17 at all.
Greetings,
Let’s see if we can break this down a little....
The Complete Jewish Bible
1 Timothy 3 Read This Chapter
3:15
so that if I am delayed, you may know how one should behave in the household of God, which is the Messianic Community of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
KJV = the pillar “and” ground of the truth. =good soil!
Truth Greek for G225
c) the truth as taught in the Christian religion, respecting God and the execution of his purposes through Christ, and respecting the duties of man, opposing alike to the superstitions of the Gentiles and the inventions of the Jews, and the corrupt opinions and precepts of false teachers even among Christians
Jesus is Torah, the truth, and according to the Messianic Community and the Jewish Community the truth is called Torah, it always has been and always will be.
By definition alone ….truth is opposing alike to the superstitions of the Gentiles and the inventions of the Jews, .................and the corrupt opinions and precepts of false teachers even among Christians,
Therefore 1 Timothy said …. “”so that if I am delayed, you may know how one should behave
…….And as we can see….No one is excluded!
Moses commanded the way, the truth was written (prophesied) in the Law, and the life according to the prophets was the pending resurrection from death, which is the truth of the curse of the Law....which would in turn by the resurrection from death would therefore leave the blessings...
So the pillar and support of the truth underlying our faith is Torah, which is as mentioned below...
3:16
quote:
Great beyond all question is the formerly hidden truth underlying our faith:
So in Christ the Torah has revealed its hidden truths in the Law and the prophets, now by faith the test is to believe that when we break the Law, we are forgiven and not condemned, ....so the trick is to know what the those Laws were so we can take part of the blessings which Christ came to fulfill.
Personally…..I haven met too many people who are “in violation” of the Law… even in Christ… who are NOT showing the blessing That is Great and beyond all question!!!
3:16
He was manifested physically (means born under the Law)... and proved righteous spiritually, (Kept the Law and the prophets)…and fulfilled their prophecies, so we could enjoy HIS benefits.
3:16
seen by angels and proclaimed among the nations, trusted throughout the world and raised up in glory to heaven.
quote:
I Tim. 3:15-17
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please show me where the word you torah is there
It’s kind of broken down in all the above.
Loyal Gypsy
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 5/19/2008 12:49:02 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 12:39:45 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1146
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
...Jesus is Torah, the truth, and according to the Messianic Community and the Jewish Community the truth is called Torah, it always has been and always will be.
Don't you know the law is only a veiled portion of truth? The complete truth is seen in Jesus Christ and lived out in the Holy Spirit. Additional truth has come to us through the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles that was not visible in the law. And this unveiled truth is what leads us into greater works than the law. You are going to have to stretch your definition of 'truth' if you want to know what truth really is.
A reference to 'truth' is not automatically a reference to Torah. You are severly limiting it if you do that. Truth goes way beyond the law. You've been indoctrinated (trained) to see 'law' whenever you see the word 'truth', or the word 'commands', or...(there's another one, but I can't recall it off hand). You have been indoctrinated. Torah is not the complete truth. If it was there would have been no need for a second (not renewed...a second) Covenant. That's why we have a New Covenant now. One that is 'not like the first one'.
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 2:43:28 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1747
Joined: 8/10/2005
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Appreciate your reply, Lap, glad to hear you study so much and in depth.
God bless your work and studies, and your church.
Dearest BlueT, your short religious history, pretty please, if I may ask for it , brother( sister?)?
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 2:43:31 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 693
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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We are back in the same revolving door argument. Which when I was asked to post a reply to Romans 7:6, I did so thoroughly and you refuse to acknowledge it. You come up with rather weak arguments to the contrary. If Paul was not referring to the TaNaKH in II Tim. 3:15-17, what other scriptures were there? What other holy book or scrolls were there. Please enlighten me. I'm seeing that this is an exercise in futility. It's hard to have an intelligent dialogue when those engaged refuse to acknowledge simple truth!
I'm sorry the early church did not have Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, Acts, Romans... at there disposal. These books were written some time later  . The only holy scriptures they could rely on was the OT. I'm sorry this is hard for you to receive. I think it is easy for one to receive however, you refuse to admit you may be wrong in this regard.
This is for any and all (including myself), don't let your pride keep you from receiving a blessing. I know this goes against years of ingrained theology and it is an apparent stumbling block to some of you, but don't let your pride cause you to miss out on a tremendous blessing.
Please don't bother to respond to me personally, I will be vacating from this thread for a while. God Bless
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 2:51:11 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1747
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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Appreciate the reply, Lbolt,
I thought I was pretty promiscuous with my church affiliations last year, test driving about 2 dozen of them. Look like you people are even more experienced))
quote:
Even after I became convinced that Torah was good to practice, I still had issues with Paul. It wasn't until I spoke with a Jewish believer from Israel, of whom I bought his commentary on the book of Galations, that I began to understand a whole lot better. great, God bless you richly ! If one speaks with a jewish believer from israel and doesnt understand something about life a whole lot better as a result then there is surely no hope left for such a bum!
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This guy was a shepharite (???) orthodox teacher who got saved and was steeped in Judaism.
Sephardi ? Sephardic Jews are (usually) bit darker skinned. I, for one, am half(my mom is seph.) that is why I can’t be considered white by no stretch of imagination and have very dark eyes. one muslim Student Alliance fellow mistaken me for one of their own once-what a pleasantly surprising discovery later!!! funniest story occured.
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He showed me that to those practicing Judaism they follow 2 Laws. The Written Torah of the Bible and the Oral Law of the Rabbi's. That there were basically 4 classifications of Oral Law.
Halacha/ot- which in his words, "a law or laws derived directly from a manipulated interpretation of Scripture or Midrash. These were somewhat filtered through Hillel and Shammia
Minhagim- customs are traditions enacted as law. "Minhag Yisrael torah hi" is the axiom (a custom in Israel is Torah).
Takanot and Gezerot- which are enactments and decrees of the Rabbis (basically invented on the whim) is Torah therefore binding.
Ma'asim- the deeds or actions of Rabbi's or sages, justifying how a tradition should be observed. This was derived from fables, incidents and storiesof Rabbis and not the Holy Writ.
Somewhat generalized but I say it’s pretty much, essentially true and excellently to the point!! I could add some color commentary/personal experience but I will get carried away from the purpose of the thread, I just know myself. What I gather from the post is that you see legalism as observance of rabbinical traditions and manmade rules, customs and other substandard rabbinical pious-looking garbage.(intensely biting my tongue not to say more on the lucrative rabbinical subject) That's true, but not all of it.
We can’t object to the fact that even if one obeys the rules of the Torah as in Word of God unless he is obeying the Spirit of the Law he is just as legalistic and is an enemy to God as when he participates in hannukah celebrations ( which is essentially “Christmas repackaged” for most messianics I know in states)
Something Sponge does a better job explaining. If you would address his post on your debate on romans 7 and such I would appreciate it.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 2:54:08 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1146
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
O.K, I can go out and murder, disrespect my parents, Blaspheme, worship idols, steal...because I don't have to walk according to the Law? Your arguments are absurd! My point is we are supposed to be dead to sin (transgression of the Law) and alive to Christ. We don't continue in sin (transgression of Torah) that grace may abound.
People say if, "I keep one part of the Law, I bound to keep it all."
Paul said it, James said it. If you adopt the literal Torah as your guide and supervisor in this life you must adopt all of it as such, not just part of it. That's means you must be circumcised (even though Paul says you don't), you must sacrifice animals (even though Hebrews says that way was passing away, and is also obsolete). You must adhere to all the specific regulations when you become unclean from a natural bodily discharge (Temple or no Temple, there are many other stipulations you can still keep). You cannot approach God, because Torah only allows Levites to approach Him. If you try, you will be die (though we both agree we can all approach God now). If you happen to trace your lineage from either the Edomites or the Moabites, or you are the result of an illegitimate birth you must adhere to the literal regulations regarding that (even though there are now no restrictions to anyone who 'calls on the name of the Lord' to be saved).
You and I both agree, you cannot just make Torah go away (Jesus said He did not come to abolish the law). So, either they have to be in full force now, as you contend, or they must find their fulfillment in a new and different (spiritual) way, which does not abolish them, but 'fulfills' the rquirements they represent. The evidence of what is now spiritually accepted is overwhelming that Torah is now understood in it's new spiritual fulfillment, not the old way of it's black and white literal letters.
Your argument that the Festivals and Sabbath observances, and other worship requirements of Torah, must continue because they are truth and law and can never be abolished is completely meaningless if you agree that other Torah requirements are now fulfilled in a new way and not by the literal letter of the law. So which is it, the laws I pointed out that no longer get observed literally, did they 1) get abolished, 2) continue into the New Covenant unchanged and unaltered and still binding, or 3) find their satisfactory fulfillment in the new way of the Spirit?
Your argument is #2, or course. Then why don't you keep all of them literally? That's what we want to know. If you are still not aware of what it means to keep the whole law literally (as must be done if you are going to be Torah/truth observant as you define it), then we can vistit that in detail if you want. Your life and doctrine will change drastically.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Well, when you lie, cheat and steal you are keeping one part of the Torah...
For the person who accepts the New Covenant and understands that Torah is not the literal guide for living now, it doesn't matter if by all outward appearances you are keeping all or part of it. Do you understand that? Only those who say they are following strict Torah are bound to obey it all. I'm following the truth we now have in the ministry of the indwelling Holy Spirit. My 'rules', my guideline for living is, "do not envy, do not lust, do not be proud, be gentle, be faithful, be joyfull, be peaceable..." Any person who believes in Christ's work and 'keeps' this law of the Spirit will never be in violation of the written code.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 3:04:01 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 2947
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
We are back in the same revolving door argument.
Kinda reminds one of a white dog chasing his tail? lol.
We had an episode this last Sabbath.
A fellow who claims to be self-taught contradicted what the teacher said.
Then after the service make a show of acknowledging he shouldn't contradict
a teacher in public.
My responce was that if we "discuss" a subject it isn't contradiction.
But if we say "I'm right and you're wrong" then it's contradicting each other.
I may or may not vacate, but most of my time will be spent lurking.
I caught my tail, so I quit running. ROFL.
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Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 3:12:28 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1146
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
We are back in the same revolving door argument. Which when I was asked to post a reply to Romans 7:6, I did so thoroughly and you refuse to acknowledge it. You come up with rather weak arguments to the contrary. If Paul was not referring to the TaNaKH in II Tim. 3:15-17, what other scriptures were there? What other holy book or scrolls were there. Please enlighten me. I'm seeing that this is an exercise in futility. It's hard to have an intelligent dialogue when those engaged refuse to acknowledge simple truth!
I'm sorry the early church did not have Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, Acts, Romans... at there disposal. These books were written some time later . The only holy scriptures they could rely on was the OT. I'm sorry this is hard for you to receive. I think it is easy for one to receive however, you refuse to admit you may be wrong in this regard.
This is for any and all (including myself), don't let your pride keep you from receiving a blessing. I know this goes against years of ingrained theology and it is an apparent stumbling block to some of you, but don't let your pride cause you to miss out on a tremendous blessing.
Please don't bother to respond to me personally, I will be vacating from this thread for a while. God Bless
Well, I'm sorry LBolt is not here to read this, but this isn't about getting me or you to 'acknowledge' each other's views. It's simply a place to share those views and give each other the dignity and respect to rebut those views if they'd like. We both have done that. Although, I don't think I've left anyone's argument laying on the table unaddressed. I just wish all of mine were.
LBolt, come to your senses. The 'truth' you had and rejected before becoming a Messianic isn't as wrong as you have been led to believe. There is strong Biblical foundation to what the Church believes today. I can't help but to see Jewish pride and envy at work trying to 'take back' their God and their law. They are the ones who are going to have to humble themselves and accept unrefutable NT truth. Truth that fulfills their scriptures in an infinately far better and important and meaningful way, and a way in which we can partake of together in complete joy and unity, not the nonsense of denominational wranglings and separation.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 5/19/2008 3:18:52 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/19/2008 3:29:35 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 1747
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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Come on, are you playing hard to get, gentlemen? get back here, pretty please, I cant believe you have nothing to say to reply Sponge!
My aunt's husband stopped talking and said only abo | | |
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