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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/22/2008 11:14:58 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3295
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quote:
Unless they were also or very loving or perpetually on each other’s throats which would also work for our situation : ) Where is that vagabond? Lapie, dear, can I have you for a second here, what did you mean, friend?
I'm probably dating myself.
The Dorsey brothers were always fighting each other
and fighting for each other as they grew up.
They were in the Big Band era. Back when music was music.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/22/2008 11:18:04 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3295
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
what I googled out about Dorseys is they were musicians, playing trumpet, trombone and sax,( all that you blow air into, so maybe Lap meant we are full of (hot) air?)
Can I put my 2 cents worth in?? 
Here is a quater.... its not so much about the Dorseys Hot Air, but bad breath , and because of it they were told many times ......There is the door,,,see!!! !!! 
LG
Very good! I think we're beginning to get the picture Lap wants us to see. That lap, always speaking in parables and spiritual stories...well, sometimes....okay, never, but it sounded good.
LOL.
I was told in another thread that I write in prose.
Just don't like to mince words or waste my time. lol.
If it's black I call it black,
if it's a cat, I name it cat.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/22/2008 11:20:18 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3295
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There are biographical movies about Glenn Miller with Jimmy Stewart
and the Dorseys (I forget the name of the actor that played him).
That's real good wholesome movie making about families.
Edited to note: I googled the Fabulous Dorseys.
In that film the Dorsey brothers played themselves.
quote:
Tommy and Jimmy were never actors, nor close brotherly musicians for that matter. Fightin' and Feudin' were their credentials in real life, breaking up their joint band in 1935 over an argument on stage about the tempo of a tune, "I'll Never Say Never Again". Hot of trombone, hot of temper the domineering,take charge Tommy walked off and formed his own Band. Jimmy, the older of the two, who adopted the role in their joint band as the lay back clarinet and alto saxophonist was left with the original orchestra.
Both brothers vowed never to play with one another again and the rift lasted twelve years, till the death of their father, where they made it up in consolation to their grieving mother.
This movie is a relatively good portrayal of their respective lives, featuring their doting parents, who tried to reconcile their indifference's but to no avail.
< Message edited by Lapidoth -- 5/22/2008 12:54:57 PM >
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/22/2008 12:22:23 PM
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LBolt
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I must be a glutten for redundancy and punishment. Here goes the hellraiser again! LOL. I believe the question was ask why don't we keep all that various aspects of the literal law because a verse said something to the effect that "If we keep part of it we must keep all of it?"
Am I in the ballpark with what was ask? If you read various portions in the Torah, some of the laws governed the Levitical priesthood and their duties regarding the Tabernacle, offerings, Temple etc. These things were to be done by them, at a specific location (Israel and the "place where I put my name"...hinting at the Temple) By the time of Messiah and even afterward the priesthood was very much indeed compromised due to political factions. Now we now that Christ ushered in the Melchizidecian priesthood. Hebrews teaches those things more in depth. This book was written to encourage the believers and prepare them for the events of AD 70. By showing them "that Christ is better than..."
It was no way those sacrifices could deal with the "old man" which was why Christ went to the cross in the first place. We were "under the law by the deeds of the flesh." As such sin's penalty was a death sentenced. This is where you get the phrase "the law of sin and death." Christ redeem us from the law of sin and death (which is why we don't stone...), wiped our slate clean, took upon Himself the "ordinances that was against us...nailing it to His cross." Now we are free to walk in newness of life.
How did I get there? LOL Because of the events that took place, we don't do certain things today such as offering up lambs, doves, goat etc. According to Ezekiel many of those things will be instituted in the new Temple but that is yet to come.
Paul, as I stated before in Acts 21??? participated in the Nazarites vow and even offered the required sacrifice in the Temple, this occured well after the resurrection in order to satisfy the requirements. If this was not binding at that particular time, certainly Paul and bold and zealous believer would have oppose anyone who thought otherwise. Again, there was a Temple in place and because the scriptures (we do know what scriptures right?  ) gave instructions on the details of it.
So what do I do today? Only what I can do. I can eat animals the Bible deems as food and clean, I can keep Sabbath and congregate on that day, I can keep the feast of YHWH and do those things that I am able to do. As well as celebrate the new moon...
With regards to circumcision, I'll repeat something that was stated before... there were Pharisees at that time who accepted Yahshua as Messiah but tried to bring there teaching into the faith. They believed that you had to be circumcised after their particular custom (IServeAJew explained this) in order to be saved. If you did not do this you were branded as a "Am Haretz" and considered unsaved. They sought to bring in various other customs that were foreign to God's Word but lined up perfectly with their traditions (the Law of Moses...or Oral Law) Paul being well aware of this and the danger in presented sought to bring correction and sound doctrine to the faith.
Which is why he responded the way he did in Galatians, Corinthians et al. He reveal that Avraham was justified when he believed God not when he was circumcised. He had been walking with the LORD for 24 years before he received the sign of circumcision in the flesh. Yet he was justified! It wasn't until later that he was circumcised, it was an outward sign of an public profession of his faith. Much like water baptism is supposed to be today. It was thought that as they continued in the faith and heard Moses preached on Sabbath, circumcision would occur later. But to burden new believers with circumcision was unnecessary (more precisely after the man-made customs of the sages) in order to be saved.
Due to immense persecution there were some Jewish believers who sought to "underdo" their circumcision much like in the times of Antiochus Epiphanies, Paul admonished them not remain in the state that you have been called... I believe this was I Corinthians 7??
I can't speak for anybody else, I was circumcised as an infant. I believe there are a lot of medical benefits to being circumcised. I know the medical community has different opinions one way or the other...
It's very interesting to me that our brothers and sisters in Christiandom who claim the "life in the Spirit" freedom do the very things that were considered abominations in the Bible, i.e Christmas, Easter, Lent, Rosary, Holyween errr. Halloween... Some don't do all the mentioned but especially the first two. Heck, Sunday was considered the holyday of the week to non Christians at that time. Why is that? Let me ask some questions. Why do we adopt customs and ceremonial holydays that the bible teaches against and then paint a Christian face on it? Give me some serious, intelligent well thoughtout explanations to this. This is still related to the Law because it's dealing with things forbidden. Why didn't Jesus celebrate Easter? (WWJD?) Why didn't Jesus do Holyween or Christmas? Answer my questions seriously and I may entertain more of yours.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/22/2008 12:41:28 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3295
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
Paul admonished them not remain in the state that you have been called... I believe this was I Corinthians 7??
I Corinthians 7:17-24 [The Scriptures]
17. Only, as Elohim has distributed to each one, as the Master has called each one,
so let him walk. And so I order in all the assemblies.
18. Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was
anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised.
19. The circumcision is naught, and the uncircumcision is naught, but the guarding
of the commands of Elohim does matter!
20. Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called.
21. were you called while a slave? It matters not to you, but if you are able to become
free too, rather use it.
22. For he who is called in the Master while a slave is the Master's freed man.
Likewise he who is called while free is a slave of Messiah.
23. You were bought with a price, do not become slaves of men.
24. Brothers, let each one remain with Elohim in that calling in which he was called.
Just thought I'd help out. lol.
Good post LBolt, IMHO.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/22/2008 4:15:53 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1144
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Point 1: old way/new way
Do you believe it was necessary for those who lived prior to Yeshua's(Jesus) incarnation to live according to the "letter of the law"? If so, for what purpose or purposes?
Yes, it was necessary. Without a doubt. It was in order to secure God's promise of life and prosperity, and to be righteous before Him.
"The LORD commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the LORD our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today. And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness." (Deut. 6:24-25)
The key being their righteousness. There is no life, no prosperity, no blessing of God without righteousness. You must do what is right and just (be righteous) in order to realize the promises of God:
"For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him." (Genesis 18:19)
I'll try to keep my posts short.
Thank you for limiting yourself to the present point.
Now, just a little clarification. Was it necessary for their salvation? It appears you do at least believe that their observance was necessary for right living. You have also stated that that is not the case today. What, in your opinion, is the fundimental difference that caused this to change?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/22/2008 8:27:08 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1839
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
what I googled out about Dorseys is they were musicians, playing trumpet, trombone and sax,( all that you blow air into, so maybe Lap meant we are full of (hot) air?)
Can I put my 2 cents worth in??
Here is a quater.... its not so much about the Dorseys Hot Air, but bad breath , and because of it they were told many times ......There is the door,,,see!!! !!!
LG
Very good! I think we're beginning to get the picture Lap wants us to see. That lap, always speaking in parables and spiritual stories...well, sometimes....okay, never, but it sounded good.
LOL.
I was told in another thread that I write in prose.
Just don't like to mince words or waste my time. lol.
If it's black I call it black,
if it's a cat, I name it cat.
Greetings,
Thats Adam for ya!!
I mean, if I were Adam in garden and the first thing I ever saw was Eve after a good sleep and before the fig-leaf blanket, I would have name her ....WOW!
But that would have been back in the day...now a days I just say say.... "thank you!
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/22/2008 9:15:05 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1046
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Thank you for limiting yourself to the present point.
Now, just a little clarification. Was it necessary for their salvation?
Yes, salvation in the sense of being able to stand righteous and free from condemnation before God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
It appears you do at least believe that their observance was necessary for right living.
Yes, but 'right living' meaning the right way to live in order to have right standing with God. Or IOW's, the righteousness one had to have to stay in the blessings of God.
Old Covenant life had some obvious merits as far as improving one's quality of life, but that was not the point. Continuance of the blessing was based on obeying God, not some inherant value in the life style prescribed under the law. History bears this out. The Israelites were purposely removed from the land by God's purposeful actions, not as a result of natural consequences of not obeying the law. Righteousness is what qualified them for the blessings of God, not the natural benefits and effects of living out the life of the Old Covenant rules.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
You have also stated that that is not the case today. What, in your opinion, is the fundimental difference that caused this to change?
Paul makes it clear that righteousness comes by believing God, not by works of the law (because nobody can meet the righteous standard of the law). The lesson we learn from the law is that the way God gave the Israelites to get the righteousness they needed to enjoy the blessing of God cannot bring that righteousness. That's the irony of the law.
The failure of the law to bring the righteousness God requires (as a condition to enjoy his benefits) compels a person to seek that righteousness the way Abraham did. And that is by believing in God's promise to provide a Son who would inherit the blessing.
Like Abraham, everyone who believes in God's promise of a son who will inherit the blessing is reckoned as righteous in God's sight. And Paul teaches it is that righteousness that entitles a person to dwell in and enjoy life (salvation), by the Holy Spirit, not the righteousness of law. Works of the law, and any natural benefit of living that way, does not bring the Holy Spirit, the 'life that is truly life', into a person's life. Believing does.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 5/22/2008 9:26:54 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/22/2008 9:39:28 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1046
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I must be a glutten for redundancy and punishment. Here goes the hellraiser again! LOL. I believe the question was ask why don't we keep all that various aspects of the literal law because a verse said something to the effect that "If we keep part of it we must keep all of it?"
Yes, but get right to the point about keeping the detailed instructions regarding the uncleanness of bodily discharges. If you go to bat for a literal day of Sabbath rest, or whatever, and claim there is no precedent for 'spiritualizing' it, then you must also keep the literal instructions for separation and cleansing regarding bodily discharges. That's why one must keep either all of the law, or accept that it just isn't the way to serve God anymore. You can't insist on one part of the law while letting another part slip away. That's not 'keeping the law'. I just don't see any reasonable or acceptable reasons why one could not, or should not keep many of the laws regarding bodily discharges. If Sabbaths and Festivals are still binding, then so are laws regarding bodily emissions.
And also, there is simply no getting away from this matter of circumcision. Either it is still required or it is not, since it is a clear requirement under the Law of Moses, but one we know is no longer binding, having found it's fulfillment (not abolishment) spiritually, plain and simple. This has absolutely nothing to do with some Rabbinical law. I'm talking about the clear requirement for circumcision given in Exodus, but one that we know no longer needs to be fulfilled literally.
I guess what this all means is the arguments that you and others have been using to defend the continuation of the literal law simply defy everything we know that has changed in regard to the literal fulfillment of the law. You need a different argument. That's all I'm saying.
And just to get right to the point, why can't the laws of uncleanness, for instance, be regarded as the bondage of the law? What's inherantly sinful about our natural bodily functions that we need to be delivered from them in order to be free of the law governing them?
As I have pointed out, the discharges haven't been removed (as is true in the case of the sin nature). The law regarding discharges has been removed, not the condition they govern. The argument for the removal of the sin nature releasing us from the power of the law doesn't apply here. The law has clearly been removed, it's requirements having been fulfilled spiritually, because as we both agree, the law cannot be abolished, only fulfilled. And in this case, fulfilled one time forever.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 5/22/2008 9:46:46 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/23/2008 9:39:49 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1046
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
...Paul, as I stated before in Acts 21??? participated in the Nazarites vow and even offered the required sacrifice in the Temple, this occured well after the resurrection in order to satisfy the requirements.
If this was not binding at that particular time, certainly Paul and bold and zealous believer would have oppose anyone who thought otherwise. Again, there was a Temple in place and because the scriptures (we do know what scriptures right? ) gave instructions on the details of it.
Very poor reasoning. We all know the end of literal law keeping didn't happen over night. The Temple didn't evaporate upon the resurrection of Christ. I'm confident on the morning of Jesus's resurrection some Levite stood there, needle and thread in hand, sewing up the curtain that was rent, totally oblivious to the truth that God would soon be putting all of them out of work. It's apparent that even the Twelve didn't understand the move away from the literal and into the spiritual until later. It seems that truth is Paul's revelation and ministry to the world that came to them in time.
And it is those uninformed Apostles and disciples still in Jerusalem that persuaded Paul to put up the appearance of being a literal law keeper (he was surely in violation of no spiritual principle of the law as it was). Paul makes the reason he would perform any Old Covenant procedure crystal clear in 1 Cor. 9... (It fits perfectly with the story in Acts)
" 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 23...I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."
How much clearer of a Biblical reason (as opposed to guessing and theorizing) do we need to understand Paul's submission to the request of the Elders at Jerusalem? We don't have to wonder about Paul's motives and intentions, his own writing tells us what they probably were. It would be unfair to ignore what is plain in the Bible in favor of one's own personal opinion. He did it in the interest of the many believing Jews who had become zealous for the law.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
It's very interesting to me that our brothers and sisters in Christiandom who claim the "life in the Spirit" freedom do the very things that were considered abominations in the Bible, i.e Christmas, Easter, Lent, Rosary, Holyween errr. Halloween... Some don't do all the mentioned but especially the first two. Heck, Sunday was considered the holyday of the week to non Christians at that time. Why is that? Let me ask some questions. Why do we adopt customs and ceremonial holydays that the bible teaches against and then paint a Christian face on it? Give me some serious, intelligent well thoughtout explanations to this. This is still related to the Law because it's dealing with things forbidden. Why didn't Jesus celebrate Easter? (WWJD?) Why didn't Jesus do Holyween or Christmas? Answer my questions seriously and I may entertain more of yours.
You've been complaining a lot about redundancy and the endless repeating of arguments. Have you not been reading my posts all these months? Do you really want me to repeat the rebuttal to your arguments? I've made it clear in the past. And if you did read them, why have you not addressed them and instead simply brought your original argument up again? We'll go there again if you want.
The important thing you must understand is we are free from legislated meeting times and dates and seasons and places. Invariably that freedom gives the space to worship the way we want. Does that freedom mean we can worship demons? Of course not. And your argument would mean something if that's what we actually were seeking to do!
And further understand, Easter and Christmas are only days upon which the church celebrates the birth and death of Christ. Any meaning a pagan attached to those days in centuries past is totally meaningless to us today. And as I have said before, the Bible tells us anything that a pagan has offered up in reverance to a false god does not become defiled in and of itself, and cannot defile the next person who comes along who has a pure heart and conscience about the matter. Do I listen to Paul's guidance and counsel in this matter, or do we ignore it and listen to people with weak consciences? Paul says my conscience is not ruled by another person's conscience. The Bible itself gives us guidance on how to deal with things like this.
The day many call Easter Sunday is not defiled simply because some pagan worshipers, centuries ago, committed that day to their goddess. A clear, clear principle found in Paul's teaching. You cannot read Jeremiah and Ezekiel and not expect the veil (which I believe is the Hebraic mindset) Paul says covers the eyes whenever the OT is read. I understand how people can see how modern Christmas and Easter celebrations seem to be the very idol worship they speak about (and I can also see how Jews saw Jesus as a clear violation of their scriptures, we can go there if you want). But if you stay connected with New Testament truth, you'll see the matter through the eyes of the Spirit, and not the veil of the OT.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 5/23/2008 10:08:41 AM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/23/2008 11:31:40 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3295
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
If Sabbaths and Festivals are still binding, then so are laws regarding bodily emissions.
I could care less about our arguing.
But the Sabbath and the Festivals are not the same as bodily functions.
These are God's "set" times. The times appointed.
The world events concerning Israel happen on these feast days.
So, God's wristwatch is the same now as it was in Leviticus.
Looks like we all have our "veils."
So, in each others view, we're the blind boxing the blind. lol.
There is no way we can "sanctify" Easter, Christmas, etc.
They are what they are.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/23/2008 12:47:42 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1046
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
If Sabbaths and Festivals are still binding, then so are laws regarding bodily emissions.
I could care less about our arguing.
But the Sabbath and the Festivals are not the same as bodily functions.
Some here do care about the arguing. Glad to see it doesn't bother you. It doesn't me either because I don't feel like I'm arguing.
Anyway, please explain for the benefit of your fellow law keepers why they are not the same. I brought it up in direct challenge to what they use to defend the continuing literal requirements of the law. I know you don't subscribe to some of their arguments.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
These are God's "set" times. The times appointed.
The world events concerning Israel happen on these feast days.
So, God's wristwatch is the same now as it was in Leviticus.
I don't have a problem, fundamentally, with this. They plainly pointed to the day and season of Christ. But they only continue to point to Christ for those who haven't yet received Him, but who will at a later date (namely the Jews). Thus the continuing prophetic nature of the Feasts. But what does that have to do with what day of the week we go to Church and whether or not we rest on that day? The floor is yours...explain.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/23/2008 1:02:53 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3295
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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For the feasts, it's interesting that the six day war,
Israel becoming a nation, etc. are on feast days.
Never on Easter, or Christmas, etc.
--------------------------------------------------
I'd have to reread about the having to keep every law.
It does say [as I remember it] that if you break one law,
you are a law breaker. I don't recall it a requirement that
if you keep one you have to keep them all. Unless you're
trying to be "righteous" by keeping the law.
Every one of us are law-breakers.
There are so many laws on the books, we all break several of them.
One meager example of a difference in "law" is the NO SWIMMING ALLOWED sign.
The letter of the law is we break the law and swim. I see people that do this all
the time. They disregard signs and do what they want.
The spirit of that same law --- it's still against the law to go swimming, but if someone
is drowning (fell in; or breaking the law) the one who dives in to save him broke no law.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Passover has been fulfilled in Yeshua. For the Jew first, and then the Gentile.
Passover is "individual" salvation. There is no future passover feast of salvation even for the Jews.
The Fall Feasts have not been fulfilled. Although some argue they have all been fulfilled in Jesus.
Spring Feasts (i.e., Passover, Unleavened Bread, Pentecost) yes.
Fall Feasts, no. They are still yet to be fulfilled.
All Israel will be saved. ---------- This is not Passover. This is Yom Kippur.
When Yeshua returns the second time, Israel will have their Yom Kippur. Day of Atonement.
As Passover is "individual" salvation; Yom Kippur is "national" salvation.
If we reject learning the "full" meaning of the Feasts by grouping them with "noma." We
miss much of the NT meanings.
Sabbath is Sabbath. It has never changed. You know the scriptures. They are the same.
Sunday may or can be a day of worship, but it will never be the Sabbath.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/23/2008 7:57:02 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1144
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Thank you for limiting yourself to the present point.
Now, just a little clarification. Was it necessary for their salvation?
Yes, salvation in the sense of being able to stand righteous and free from condemnation before God.
Like Abraham, everyone who believes in God's promise of a son who will inherit the blessing is reckoned as righteous in God's sight. And Paul teaches it is that righteousness that entitles a person to dwell in and enjoy life (salvation), by the Holy Spirit, not the righteousness of law. Works of the law, and any natural benefit of living that way, does not bring the Holy Spirit, the 'life that is truly life', into a person's life. Believing does.
Now. are you saying that Abraham was saved by faith alone and we are saved by faity alone, but David was not saved by faith alone?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/24/2008 8:39:14 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 886
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
I've made it clear in the past. And if you did read them, why have you not addressed them and instead simply brought your original argument up again?
You see where I'm coming from! LOL! I can go back and give you posts to your already asked questions!
This is going to be very quick, there's a verse that says choose not the way of the heathen to worship me. What about Exodus 32, where the people toke something from a false religion and used it to worship YAH. We are told to learn not the way of the heathen... Jeremiah 16:19 speaks of a time when the gentiles will lament that their fathers have inherited lies...
As far as the days of easter and x-mas, why not Passover and Tabernacles to commerate these two events since it occured on these two dates? What I was hoping to get at is that we burrowed these days from the world in order to win them to Christ. We carried over these practices in order to appease unbelievers. When I asked for scripture and other sources of information, you've or others have provided very little if any at all! It's a research project of sorts. It's good to see the origin of a thing and find out why we do what we do. There is a reason.
It's rather interesting and sad, last year's x-mas, from Good Morning America to the local news networks they all decided to report about the origins of x-mas and all came up with customs leading back to Sol Evictus and that it was "later adopted into Christiandom." This is what my question regarding easter, x-mas and Sunday Sabbath, Halloween etc. Did you know that Antiochus Epiphanies plundered the Temple erected a statue of Zeus in the Holies and Holy and offered a swine on the altar on Dec 25th in honor of this pagan diety's birthday. Why in the world would we choose Dec. 25 to celebrate Christ's birth when such despicable events occured on this day. When you do a study on the symbol of the tree, the bulbs, wreath, star etc., etc.
I have an article where pagans are begging Christians to give them back there day (X-mas). ROTFLOL!
They hate that we've stolen their day! Come on people can we wake up please?!!
You may have answered the questions but did not provide meaning substance and sufficient scriptural or source information.
Well I going home to get ready for Shabbat service. Those questions was not only aimed at SB but anyone from any "camp" to respond.
< Message edited by LBolt -- 5/24/2008 9:02:40 AM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/24/2008 11:15:44 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1046
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
For the feasts, it's interesting that the six day war,
Israel becoming a nation, etc. are on feast days.
Never on Easter, or Christmas, etc.
Why would God use Christmas and Easter, Christ centered observances, to speak to a nation that has totally rejected anything to do with Jesus? They are the ones who are yet to see Christ in the Festivals and Sabbaths of their law. It's no surprise that God would speak to them through their own sciptures.
Even I know you have to use the OT scriptures to have any hope of getting through to a natural, Christ rejecting Jew. It's a waste of time to talk to a Jew about Christ without using the pictures and illustrations of the OT, the very thing Paul did so effectively. He made the case for Christ right from their own scriptures, which is what anyone (God included) must do to validate the truth of Jesus to a Jew. It's the only ground upon which to approach the Jews without having them shut you down right out of the gate. That doesn't amount to a defense of literal law keeping. It's the simple logic of meeting them where they are, and it's the spirit behind Paul's "to the Jews I became like a Jew".
It's no shock that God still relates to Christ rejecting Jews on the timetable of the OT. As I've said, they are essentially still under the Old Covenant by default.
I know that the Arab world purposely attacked Israel during their Holy days in hopes of hitting them when they are vulnerable and unprepared and preoccupied with their festivities, but the day of their independance--what OT Festival does that line up with? The only Festival I know of in the second month is the second Passover (for those unclean to partake of the first one). And it's observance doesn't line up with the day of their Independance. I don't study these things, educate us on it's significance in reagard to OT Feasts.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
I'd have to reread about the having to keep every law.
It does say [as I remember it] that if you break one law,
you are a law breaker. I don't recall it a requirement that
if you keep one you have to keep them all. Unless you're
trying to be "righteous" by keeping the law.
The point is, if one is going to insist that we are to continue to relate to God through the written law, how can you only do that in part and still call yourself a 'law keeper'? What good is it if you are careful to keep one part while neglecting another part (at least have a reasonable explanation of why a person can neglect that other part). This argument that the law stands complete and unaltered, and still completely in force is completely false.
Some here need a new argument to defend the parts of the law they go to bat for. The argument that 'all of the law is still in effect, that's why you have to rest and meet together on Saturday' (or whatever argument) is easily dismissed knowing so much of the law really isn't in effect anymore.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Every one of us are law-breakers.
There are so many laws on the books, we all break several of them.
One meager example of a difference in "law" is the NO SWIMMING ALLOWED sign.
The letter of the law is we break the law and swim. I see people that do this all
the time. They disregard signs and do what they want.
The spirit of that same law --- it's still against the law to go swimming, but if someone
is drowning (fell in; or breaking the law) the one who dives in to save him broke no law.
I know what you are trying to say, and this is one of the biggest arguments for literal law keeping that makes the whole matter so meaningless. In the end, literal law keepers end up adjusting their convictions based on conditions and circumstances anyway.
I personally find this so thoroughly abrasive in and out of the law keeping movement. This kind of thinking essentially leaves the door open for a person to, in the end, do what they want to anyway and not be under law, but only give the appearance of being a law keeper. I probably should elaborate more on this because nobody would argue that you can jump into a no swimming zone to save somebody, but this example gets used to justify...well...not holding fast to your convictions in far less noble circumstances.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Passover has been fulfilled in Yeshua. For the Jew first, and then the Gentile.
Passover is "individual" salvation. There is no future passover feast of salvation even for the Jews.
The Fall Feasts have not been fulfilled. Although some argue they have all been fulfilled in Jesus.
Spring Feasts (i.e., Passover, Unleavened Bread, Pentecost) yes.
Fall Feasts, no. They are still yet to be fulfilled.
All Israel will be saved. ---------- This is not Passover. This is Yom Kippur.
When Yeshua returns the second time, Israel will have their Yom Kippur. Day of Atonement.
As Passover is "individual" salvation; Yom Kippur is "national" salvation.
If we reject learning the "full" meaning of the Feasts by grouping them with "noma." We
miss much of the NT meanings.
The two seasons of Feasts both contain salvation elements (harvest, deliverance, etc.). And I see the Spring Feasts as the salvation we have in the promise of the Holy Spirit, not the physical reality to come later. I see the Fall Feasts as representive of the actual redemption of our bodies. The two-fold plan of salvation for all of mankind.
I've been a Christian long enough to know that it's a waste of time to scrutinize dates and seasons in regard to the second coming of Christ. Everyone thought surely 1988 would be an important year for the Jews. I mean, 40 years as a nation, 40 being the magical Biblical number that it is! Nothing! Nada! Zip!
I'm way past dates and times and seasons. We prepare for the Day of Christ by being self-controlled and loving our neighbor as ourself, not trying to align ourselves with some mystic timetable. I'm not denying the existence of God's timetable. All things have been ordained and will be completed as scheduled (with or without my knowledge). I'm just saying we need to be about what's really important , and building ourselves up into that in our meetings, and live as sons of the light and the day, and not in the sleepiness and drunkenness of the night.
"1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing." (1 Thess. 5)
Lengthy passage, but worth the space I feel. That is how we are to anticipate, and properly prepare for, the Day that is coming. I honestly don't believe God insists we do that on a particular day or according to a Fesival schedule. That had it's place in the past.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Sabbath is Sabbath. It has never changed. You know the scriptures. They are the same.
Sunday may or can be a day of worship, but it will never be the Sabbath.
I agreet totally with this. If you are going to keep the law, you have to keep it the way God said to keep it, or you're simply not a literal law keeper! You'll have to talk to the Catholics about saying Sunday is the official day of rest now. I did not grow up under that teaching. But I will defend their freedom to worship God the way they want as long as they aren't doing that in an effort to be an OT law keeper (which I don't think the Catholics are doing for even a second). In which case they would obviously be in err of the law.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 5/24/2008 11:24:35 AM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/24/2008 11:24:53 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1046
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Thank you for limiting yourself to the present point.
Now, just a little clarification. Was it necessary for their salvation?
Yes, salvation in the sense of being able to stand righteous and free from condemnation before God.
Like Abraham, everyone who believes in God's promise of a son who will inherit the blessing is reckoned as righteous in God's sight. And Paul teaches it is that righteousness that entitles a person to dwell in and enjoy life (salvation), by the Holy Spirit, not the righteousness of law. Works of the law, and any natural benefit of living that way, does not bring the Holy Spirit, the 'life that is truly life', into a person's life. Believing does.
Now. are you saying that Abraham was saved by faith alone and we are saved by faity alone, but David was not saved by faith alone?
No.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/25/2008 1:15:37 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1804
Joined: 3/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
It's funny how we argue for 10 commandments, not 9, but the truth is Jesus Himself narrowed them all down to 2. And even that is really only 1 command when you consider that, practically speaking, loving God is loving your neighbor.
LOVE. How simple it sounds.
If you are caught speeding, and the cop that stops you decides to just give you a warning, no ticket, did the Law change?
quote:
That's why I go to bat for what the NT teaches; everything condensed into a heart of love that seeks to fulfill the underlying purpose and intent of the law, not the letter of the law. And that intent is to protect you from me, and me from you.
Please explain?
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/25/2008 8:44:48 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1839
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
For the feasts, it's interesting that the six day war,
Israel becoming a nation, etc. are on feast days.
Never on Easter, or Christmas, etc.
--------------------------------------------------
I'd have to reread about the having to keep every law.
It does say [as I remember it] that if you break one law,
you are a law breaker. I don't recall it a requirement that
if you keep one you have to keep them all. Unless you're
trying to be "righteous" by keeping the law.
Every one of us are law-breakers.
There are so many laws on the books, we all break several of them.
One meager example of a difference in "law" is the NO SWIMMING ALLOWED sign.
The letter of the law is we break the law and swim. I see people that do this all
the time. They disregard signs and do what they want.
The spirit of that same law --- it's still against the law to go swimming, but if someone
is drowning (fell in; or breaking the law) the one who dives in to save him broke no law.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Passover has been fulfilled in Yeshua. For the Jew first, and then the Gentile.
Passover is "individual" salvation. There is no future passover feast of salvation even for the Jews.
The Fall Feasts have not been fulfilled. Although some argue they have all been fulfilled in Jesus.
Spring Feasts (i.e., Passover, Unleavened Bread, Pentecost) yes.
Fall Feasts, no. They are still yet to be fulfilled.
All Israel will be saved. ---------- This is not Passover. This is Yom Kippur.
When Yeshua returns the second time, Israel will have their Yom Kippur. Day of Atonement.
As Passover is "individual" salvation; Yom Kippur is "national" salvation.
If we reject learning the "full" meaning of the Feasts by grouping them with "noma." We
miss much of the NT meanings.
Sabbath is Sabbath. It has never changed. You know the scriptures. They are the same.
Sunday may or can be a day of worship, but it will never be the Sabbath.
quote:
SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
For the feasts, it's interesting that the six day war,
Israel becoming a nation, etc. are on feast days.
Never on Easter, or Christmas, etc.
Why would God use Christmas and Easter, Christ centered observances, to speak to a nation that has totally rejected anything to do with Jesus? They are the ones who are yet to see Christ in the Festivals and Sabbaths of their law. It's no surprise that God would speak to them through their own sciptures.
Even I know you have to use the OT scriptures to have any hope of getting through to a natural, Christ rejecting Jew. It's a waste of time to talk to a Jew about Christ without using the pictures and illustrations of the OT,
Greetings,
quote:
SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
For the feasts, it's interesting that the six day war,
Israel becoming a nation, etc. are on feast days.
Never on Easter, or Christmas, etc.
Why would God use Christmas and Easter, Christ centered observances, to speak to a nation that has totally rejected anything to do with Jesus? They are the ones who are yet to see Christ in the Festivals and Sabbaths of their law. It's no surprise that God would speak to them through their own scriptures.
Even I know you have to use the OT scriptures to have any hope of getting through to a natural, Christ rejecting Jew. It's a waste of time to talk to a Jew about Christ without using the pictures and illustrations of the OT,
Its amazing that the root of our faith is grounded in Judaism, Apparently the HS has not yet revealed to the poster the understanding of 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 and that all practicing Jews are not necessarily natural legalists, I mean it was they who coined
Ruach HaKodesh
Tehillim 51:12 Create a pure heart for me, O G-d, and a steadfast spirit renew within me. 13 Cast me not away from Your Presence, and take not Your Holy Spirit from me.
quote:
They are the ones who are yet to see Christ in the Festivals and Sabbaths of their law.
Lapidoth, Haven’t you mentioned a number of times that they are looking for that fulfillment in the fall feasts?
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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