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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2008 5:37:58 PM
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SpongeBlog
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bjay801,
I am confident that you did not understand my statement, "I've heard this argument before" to mean, "oh, that old argument again". I honestly and sincerely meant it to mean, "I've heard this argument before, I'm prepared to address it." It did not carry the message Lap saw in it. If you did see it the way he did I give you credit for not responding negatively to it. Hope there's no misunderstanding.
And I will say your display of humility concerning my question about instructions concerning sacrifice for sin is far more pleasing to God than whether we are right or wrong about the thing we were talking about. Thank you for such a gracious and honest response.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2008 5:47:59 PM
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LBolt
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I have very little time because I started a new position and rely on the library to use the internet, I concur with Bjay on this one. I believe the heart must precede the act. I believe I posted earlier that I am required by law to support my family. However I do so not because it's law but because I love them and care about their well-being. "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good..."
I wish I could show you how Paul, contrasts the oral law and the Written Law in his writings. Romans 2... Romans 10:3 speaks of it beautifully. "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness (Oral Law), have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God( His Word-Torah- The Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus)."
Phrases such as "works of the law", "law of sin and death" (which speaks of anything in violation of God's word including much of Oral Law)...there are probably more phrases but you get the picture.
I pointed out earlier how Timothy from a child was instructed out of the "Holy Scriptures" which was the TaNaKH...it contained instruction in righteousness, good for rebuke, doctrine...
Odeliya, I understand you uneasiness...thought somethings could be better clarified coming from a scholar than from a voiceless blogger such as myself. Sometimes hearing from someone is better...but understand, though.
You know the only difference between us is a day, some holidays, foods, and other minute details we agree alot!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2008 6:24:41 PM
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SpongeBlog
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I've been meaning to get back to these...
quote:
...there's a verse that says choose not the way of the heathen to worship me.
Don't you agree this was about how the Israelites adopted things that were abominable to God in and of themselves (sexual immorality, child sacrifice, sacrificing outside the City, and such), things the heathen did in the worship of their gods, and which the Israelites included in their worship of the Lord?
This had nothing to do with not coloring eggs, for example, because that's what they do for their god. Coloring eggs does not stand all by itself as an abomination. Sexual immorality and child sacrifice does. That's why this argument fits so well in the context of Paul's 'for him it is sin' doctrine in Romans 14.
There's nothing inherantly evil or abominable about coloring an egg, for instance. The point is, and which the Bible teaches, since some people consider that practice defiled by pagans it becomes unclean for them. And I respect that. Paul tells us to respect that. But Paul also tells us it's only defiled because the person thinks so, not that it actually is defiled. That's your clear Biblical answer to the problem of Easter and Christmas.
Don't get me wrong. I don't get crazy over Easter and Christmas myself. I used to skip Church for the month of December because I knew they'd be straining to develop another sermon out of the Christmas story. I in no way see Christmas and Easter as legislated and required festivals that have replaced the OT festivals. Not even close. That's why they represent a big, fat zero to me personally.
I think it's wise to separate the issue of not following the OT festival schedule and whether or not a person should do Easter and Christmas. I say that because for all intents and purposes what it is for me and many others is we simply don't follow the OT schedule, not that we are deeply committed to a new law of some kind on how and when to worship God. And that way, instead of using Easter and Christmas as a justification to defend Passover and all the other feasts, we can stick to the argument of whether or not we are indeed bound to the laws of Festivals and Sabbaths or not.
So let's talk about the fundamental issue of whether or not we are free from the legislated times and dates and procedures of worship in the law. And if we are free of them, we can then decide what practices are acceptable and which ones are not.
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What about Exodus 32, where the people toke something from a false religion and used it to worship YAH.
They actually were worshiping that false god and deceived themselves into thinking they were worshiping the true God. Your argument is the reverse of that--people are really worshiping the true God and are being told they are worshiping false gods unawares. See the difference? We can't ignore the 'revelry' that constituted their worship. I have been told that word revelry implies their celebration amounted to nothing short of an orgy. The abominable practices God abhors and which he forbids to be used in formal worship of Him do not accompany the typical mainline Church's celebration of Easter and Christmas. It's all about Christ.
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As far as the days of easter and x-mas, why not Passover and Tabernacles to commerate these two events since it occured on these two dates?
I agree, why not? Then we can argue about what we should or should not be doing in regard to those laws. Even the Passover that Christ kept in the upper room and told us to do in rememberance of Him bears little resemblence to the original Mosaic requirements.
quote:
What I was hoping to get at is that we burrowed these days from the world in order to win them to Christ. We carried over these practices in order to appease unbelievers. When I asked for scripture and other sources of information, you've or others have provided very little if any at all!
Romans 14 & 1 Cor. 8 and 11. guides each of us through the confusion. It doesn't give us the definitive answer about Easter and Christmas overall, but it does teach us how each of us individually should handle it. I've been sharing that Biblical guidance all along.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 5/27/2008 6:41:43 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/27/2008 8:49:39 PM
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LBolt
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I've learned to do the things I can do and not worry about what I can't do. I can do Sabbath, the Feasts etc. I don't worry about the sacrifices, the blood of Messiah toke care of that, when the millenial reign comes then we'll receive more clarification... But I can keep the commandments including the 4th. It's all moral. Passover...I explained that enough...even Christ and Paul gave us instruction on this. Romans 14, doesn't deal with Sabbath at all. Corinthians deals with Passover. Got to run. God Bless.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/28/2008 3:14:43 AM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
I've learned to do the things I can do and not worry about what I can't do.
What I've been trying to show is you probably don't do everything you can, using the laws of uncleanness as the example (although I freely acknowledge I don't know any of you at all). It's just that the laws of uncleanness are so restrictive that I find it hard to believe anyone keeps them even though they are entirely possible to keep up to the point you have to go see a priest or offer up a sacrifice.
And if a law keeper is not going to follow parts of Torah he or she really could follow, how can they then insist Torah is the unchanging revelation of God's truth, and the way in which to be holy, and is the complete list of 'God's commands' referenced in the NT? Unless you want to agree with me that those parts you don't keep but could (and others) have been taken care of (fulfilled) for us and we don't have to do them anymore. Or, at the very least, agree with me that because the priesthood and the Temple are so central to the law that the absence of the Temple releases us from the literal observance of laws that are so heavily connected with the sacrifices, like the Festival laws.
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...I don't worry about the sacrifices, the blood of Messiah toke care of that...(emphasis by SpongeBlog)
Exactly what I've been saying all along. Any law keeper is welcome to answer this fair and honest question for me...Did Christ abolish the law of sacrifice for sin, or did He fulfill it so that I don't have to worry about it anymore? (Your only other choice would be we are in violation of the law of sacrifice for sin, which we all agree is not true at all. Otherwise we'd all still be in our sins).
I've been using this example to prove to you law keepers that it is not so absurd or impossible to understand that the NT Church doesn't keep the literal laws of worship today because Christ has done that for us, just as He has kept the law of sacrifice for sin for us, releasing us from that continual debt we had under the law.
quote:
...Passover...I explained that enough...even Christ and Paul gave us instruction on this. Corinthians deals with Passover.
Another honest and fair question: The Passover Christ instructed us to keep is not the same Passover of Torah. Wine and bread are not (to my knowledge) elements of the Passover in the law. So why does the NT Church's communion service of wine and bread not qualify as a legitimate Passover observance, thus ending that point of contention law keepers have with the Church?
And the instructions Paul gives the Corinthians in chapter 11 of 1 Cor. are for 'when they meet together', the context of the passage suggesting more of a weekly, or more periodic observance rather than the yearly regulation of the OT Passover. And the context also suggests a Passover observance more in line with Jesus's version, not the law's version. How can these differences be used as a defense of keeping a literal OT Passover once a year and only in the proper timetable and method of the OT Feast?
These are honest and fair questions for any law keeper. This is a place purposely set aside for polite and honest discussion of these matters. If anyone chooses not to participate, that's fine. I have no interest in causing anyone to go against their convictions. I'm just trying to defend my convictions and the convictions of the mainline Church.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 5/28/2008 3:22:40 AM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/28/2008 7:25:11 AM
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bjay0801
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I have to disagree with you Sponge concerning Passover. Jesus did the same Passover service that had been done years on top of years. Remember, all things point to Him so he was able to show the disciples why each thing was done before during and after the Passover supper. If you have never participated in a Passover celebration, then next year when it comes up, I highly reccomend that you do. This has nothing to do with keeping "literal laws", it's so that we can see how much we have missed in scripture. I know you're skeptical concerning this one but I must tell you that our congregation had the chance to participate with various churches and other pastors and Passover blew their minds. Pass over shows Jesus' death, burial, and ressurection, God's plan for redemption and how we look forward to His return. Man, I have to tell you, if you have never seen it, you truly are missing a wonderfull treat. There are so many things in the traditional Passover seder that we who have the testimony of Jesus could share with our Jewish brethern and there are things that they can share with us. When both houses come together, boy what a celebration that is going to be! Jesus sat with His disciples during the same time that all rabbis sat with their disciples, the foods that are eaten during Passover have meaning, I wish I could get with you one on one just to show you the what goes on during Passover. The things that have been done for thousands of years by our Jewish brethern and they (at least the religios ones) have no idea why God allowes them to do and say some of the things that are in the seder. And these are things that we can answer. The testimony of of our Lord and savior is in it and they don't see it. I've spoken with some Jewish brethern who now believe that Jesus is the Messiah and you should see how excited they are to celebrate with open eyes now. But again, if you have never participated in a Passover service, then I can understand how you wouldn't understand fully of what Paul was talking about. My brother, I wish I could share this one with you, because this just shows how God has redeemed us from sin. I know you'll say that you understand but this one thing, I truly wish you could experiance with us (I mean our congregation). We typicaly midrash during Passover so that everyone gets something out of it.
And what you said about Israel decieved themselves is absolutley correct. They took a piece of a practice that the Egytions did and tried to use it fo YHWEH. They thought they were worshipping Him but because they mixed their worship, God saw it as idolotry plain and simple. Thats why I mentioned that scrpiture in Duet. 18:9
When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
This is a change your perspective type of thing. What does God consider abominations? Now that might be another thread for another time. 
_____________________________
O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/28/2008 9:23:55 AM
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LBolt
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I was reading early this morning in Ezekiel (around 40-42) concerning the Millenial Temple and guess what??? there will be sacrifices. Here's a quick sample:
39 And in the porch of the gate were two tables on this side, and two tables on that side, to slay thereon the burnt offering and the sin offering and the trespass offering. 40 And at the side without, as one goeth up to the entry of the north gate, were two tables; and on the other side, which was at the porch of the gate, were two tables. 41 Four tables were on this side, and four tables on that side, by the side of the gate; eight tables, whereupon they slew their sacrifices. 42 And the four tables were of hewn stone for the burnt offering, of a cubit and an half long, and a cubit and an half broad, and one cubit high: whereupon also they laid the instruments wherewith they slew the burnt offering and the sacrifice. 43 And within were hooks, F196 an hand broad, fastened round about: and upon the tables was the flesh of the offering. 44 And without the inner gate were the chambers of the singers in the inner court, which was at the side of the north gate; and their prospect was toward the south: one at the side of the east gate having the prospect toward the north. 45 And he said unto me, This chamber, whose prospect is toward the south, is for the priests, the keepers of the charge F197 of the house. 46 And the chamber whose prospect is toward the north is for the priests, the keepers of the charge of the altar: these are the sons of Zadok among the sons of Levi, which come near to the LORD to minister unto him. 47 So he measured the court, an hundred cubits long, and an hundred cubits broad, foursquare; and the altar that was before the house.
It would not be a far stretch of the imagination of YAH giving Ezekiel this vision seeing that he was a priest before receiving his prophetic commission. Those things are suspended now until the Millenial Temple is established.
quote:
And the instructions Paul gives the Corinthians in chapter 11 of 1 Cor. are for 'when they meet together', the context of the passage suggesting more of a weekly, or more periodic observance rather than the yearly regulation of the OT Passover. And the context also suggests a Passover observance more in line with Jesus's version, not the law's version. How can these differences be used as a defense of keeping a literal OT Passover once a year and only in the proper timetable and method of the OT Feast?
These are honest and fair questions for any law keeper. This is a place purposely set aside for polite and honest discussion of these matters. If anyone chooses not to participate, that's fine. I have no interest in causing anyone to go against their convictions. I'm just trying to defend my convictions and the convictions of the mainline Church.
This is a fair question I've not bashed anyone for asking this. I asked the same questions and felt a similar sentiment. The LORD's Supper and Feast of the Lord is synomus. He made reference to an event that toke place during the LORD's death, which we know occured during Passover. The words Christ said, "When you eat THIS bread and drink THIS cup you do show the LORD's death til He come." (caps and bold used for emphasis) He is talking about Passover. The event toke place during Passover and in the Gospels he even expounds on the spiritual signifance of it. The Bible calls it "the LORD's supper", "Passover", "Unleavened Bread", Feast of the LORD"...I don't see communion! That's neither here nor there.
If you want to observe communion...more power to you. There is nothing in the word that says you can't. Although I would say that the way the church does it now is burrowed. If you do it 12,24 etc. times a year then definitely observe it during Passover. It's only befitting! Especially the way it has been observed for over 1,000's of year's. I concur with Bjay it is a very telling and an awesome event!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/28/2008 10:15:18 AM
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Odeliya
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quote:
I have very little time because I started a new position and rely on the library to use the internet, I concur with Bjay on this one. I believe the heart must precede the act. I believe I posted earlier that I am required by law to support my family. However I do so not because it's law but because I love them and care about their well-being. "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good..." Well, happy to hear that and may God blessigns rest on your family; and your new position be fruitful and bring you money as quick as we come up with wise alec responses on this thread!
Yes, i read your posts on that before and appreciate your view that the condition of the heart is most important.
quote:
Odeliya, I understand you uneasiness
as in what, brother ? I am usually easy like a sunday morning.
quote:
thought somethings could be better clarified coming from a scholar than from a voiceless blogger such as myself.
I've seen scholars that are off the wall big time... often being too scholarly disqualifies a person from having common sense.
I dont mind your explanations, i read (even before i started talking here on Law) that you convinced your better half to see your theological point! . If a man has enough love and smarts to make his wife listen to him, he is not an idiot and worthy of me landing him an ear.
quote:
You know the only difference between us is a day, some holidays, foods, and other minute details we agree alot!
being in total agreement is a known thread killer :))) On a serious note, i dont think brothers and sisters ought to be in total theological agreement to be in spiritual unity. Unless they are, sort of , well, still babes.. :)
< Message edited by Odeliya -- 5/28/2008 10:21:21 AM >
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/28/2008 10:29:28 AM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Thank You Elihu.
God be praised! Isnt that a nice and humble way to show appreciation to a brother! Thanks, Lapie.
However.. i am waiting for the other shoe to drop, the theological one. Cant believe you wont offer an opinion on the subject. You little hermits are very smart and interesting when we manage to get you out of your shell
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/28/2008 10:46:22 AM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
God told Jeremiah to tell the people that just becasue they did the outward things, it meant nothing because they did not have a heart for the Lord. Just do a sacrifice and all is well. Just like Jesus said to the religious leaders, you the outward things but your hearts are far from me. Everything whether right or wrong starts from the heart. Hope that answers your question Odeliya.
It surely does, thanks, this is what i was trying to start with...
So first of all we now established that Love,fruit of the spirit, chistlikeness, godliness, brotherly love and compassion is denomination independent. I like your admission that there could be chirstians in maintstream denoms or indies that show more of the above virtues then M-s. And the other way around- there are messianics that Love Messiah( Jesus) more then some evangelicals.
The condition of the heart is what matters. Idolatry - worshipping the creature above the Creator - is rampant in organized Chist-ty as well as in M churches. People that are not true believers arent going to be more pleasing to God if they are messianics and celebrate feasts then christians that celebrate easter. BOTH are abomination. God looks at the heart.
Glad we are in agreement on this.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/28/2008 11:35:49 AM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
Thank You Elihu.
God be praised! Isnt that a nice and humble way to show appreciation to a brother! Thanks, Lapie.
However.. i am waiting for the other shoe to drop, the theological one. Cant believe you wont offer an opinion on the subject. You little hermits are very smart and interesting when we manage to get you out of your shell
LOL.
You can see right through me.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/28/2008 11:38:54 AM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
However.. i am waiting for the other shoe to drop, the theological one.
ROFL.
You know I have one.
but, better to let the Lord do the revealing.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/28/2008 5:37:48 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Thank you for limiting yourself to the present point.
Now, just a little clarification. Was it necessary for their salvation?
Yes, salvation in the sense of being able to stand righteous and free from condemnation before God.
Like Abraham, everyone who believes in God's promise of a son who will inherit the blessing is reckoned as righteous in God's sight. And Paul teaches it is that righteousness that entitles a person to dwell in and enjoy life (salvation), by the Holy Spirit, not the righteousness of law. Works of the law, and any natural benefit of living that way, does not bring the Holy Spirit, the 'life that is truly life', into a person's life. Believing does.
Now. are you saying that Abraham was saved by faith alone and we are saved by faity alone, but David was not saved by faith alone?
No.
Ok, this seems a little confusing to me. So, let me state this in a way that appears to me to be what you are saying. David did not need to keep the law in order to recieve eternal life, but needed to keep the law to "stand righteous and free from condemnation before God" while he sat on the throne of Israel. Is this correct?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 5/28/2008 6:12:02 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/29/2008 12:16:51 AM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Ok, this seems a little confusing to me. So, let me state this in a way that appears to me to be what you are saying. David did not need to keep the law in order to recieve eternal life...
In the end, yes, this is true. His efforts at achieving righteousness through the law failed. But he discovered "a righteousness from God, apart from law..." (Rom.3:21). And it was that free gift of righteousness that saved him, not the righteousness earned (or not earned) by trying to obey the law.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...but needed to keep the law to "stand righteous and free from condemnation before God" while he sat on the throne of Israel. Is this correct?
Yes, but only as a way to establish his own righteousness. But, as I shared, he discovered the only truly possible way to stand righteous before God.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/29/2008 5:54:02 AM
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tracydolls
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quote:
We can't ignore the significance of what it means to have the law written on stone (the old way) vs. having the law written on the heart (the new way). It isn't automatic simply because you are born again. We grow into it through knowlege. What do you think God is working in us day by day, month to month, and year to year--drive 30 MPH because that's what the law is, or drive 30 MPH because you don't want to endanger your neighbor's life?
You see it's not so much a matter of what you do as much as it is a matter of why you do it. Law dictates and governs the 'what'. The Spirit dictates and governs the 'why'. And it is the 'why' that determines what works are truly pleasing to God. When your 'why' is correct you will not be found negligent in matters of 'what'.
Deciding that you are going to be led by law is so deceiving. It gives the appearance that you have been pleasing to God, when in fact you may have not been very pleasing at all. No point in boasting about driving the speed limit when you really don't have any concern for children playing in the area, and were just simply obeying the law. God is looking for new creations, not white washed tombstones full of dead men's bones.
Sponge Blog,
I agree 100%. It is a HEART matter. I simply like to ask ?'s to see what comes out.
I cannot follow every Law. I used to try. But then after I got saved. I found it's the heart. Once you get saved, you don't want to lie, even if you do sometimes.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/29/2008 8:48:42 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 934
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
I have to disagree with you Sponge concerning Passover. Jesus did the same Passover service that had been done years on top of years. Remember, all things point to Him so he was able to show the disciples why each thing was done before during and after the Passover supper. If you have never participated in a Passover celebration, then next year when it comes up, I highly reccomend that you do. This has nothing to do with keeping "literal laws", it's so that we can see how much we have missed in scripture.
Been there done that. I was put off by the fact that it was a bunch of non-Biblical (non-Torah) rituals and symbols. So I agree with your statement this has nothing to do with literal laws (though I don't think you meant it that way).
quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
...Jesus sat with His disciples during the same time that all rabbis sat with their disciples, the foods that are eaten during Passover have meaning...
As a Gentile this is meaningless to me. I can see the value of God speaking to Jews through their traditions, but not us Gentiles who are so thoroughly removed from Jewish tradition, not scripture, tradition. I have been thoroughly blessed by seeing Christ in the symbols of the OT just by reading it, really.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
But again, if you have never participated in a Passover service, then I can understand how you wouldn't understand fully of what Paul was talking about.
Just last night in the College and Career (School of the Rock!) class I try to lead, we got to 1Cor. 5 in our journey through that book and instead of breaking the flow and context of Paul's letter and telling them Paul is now out of the blue telling us we must keep a literal Freast of Unleavened Bread, I explained to them how he is using the OT symbols to help them understand their obligation to now purge the leaven of sin from the bread of the Body, now that Christ our Passover lamb has been sacrificed. It's a beautiful picture of how a person believes (keeps the Passover) and then commits to removing all the leaven of sin from their bodies (keeps the Feast immediately following Passover).
They were thoroughly blessed. Trust me. Because as you know most people in even our decent mainline Churches don't study the OT. Most of them know the truth it represents, but they don't know it's foundation. But it's easy to simply teach them from the Bible what the symbols of the OT mean. It isn't even remotely necessary to have an actual Passover composed completely of Jewish add-on traditions (some actually have real lamb, though). Many think you do have to perform that so they can defend their conviction of still be required to do those things literally. I accomplished the same thing your literal observance does except I simply shared from the scriptures, and more importantly, I shared the infinately more crucial message of purging the leaven of sin, not literal leaven.
And if you are wondering if I seized the opportunity to win new converts to the 'non-literal law keeping movement', the answer is... Wait, just for fun, take a moment to tell me if you think I did or not. Really, I mean that. If you do, I'll tell you the reason why I did or did not tell them. This might be fun.
I've got to run. I'll be in and out of the forums as time permits. Looking forward to hearing from you.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/29/2008 9:32:40 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 999
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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It's the Gospel of Jesus Christ that wins people to Jesus...if you preach Jesus and Him crucified...preach on sin...the conviction sets in and yes people get saved. That's not a mystery. I hope the LORD used you to win a whole lot of young people to Messiah! Going to college...they are going to need Him! I remember when I was a young pup on a college campus trying to fit in and "find myself." There are so many traps the enemy has for young people outside of classrooms let alone inside of them!
I remember a biology professor telling the class that belief in the creation as told in the Bible was absolutely absurd. That there were no scientific facts to support it. Of course he said this for the shock effect and to spark lively dialogue...which it did. I thought the guy was a brilliant idiot!
I Cor. 5 deals alot with the spiritual implications of these events. Especially since there was a gentleman having relations with his step-mother. Scripture is scripture however, if Christ and Paul and the others did Passover...then we should as well.
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/29/2008 10:04:00 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 999
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
I dont mind your explanations, i read (even before i started talking here on Law) that you convinced your better half to see your theological point!
At first I thought I set off a time bomb! It was rocky at first believe you me! LOL I'd like to take credit but that was the Spirit of the LORD who did that. I think some of the "black-balling" we were experiencing at our previous church helped. My wife worked there part-time teaching in the daycare. Was promised to be paid and it became a big mess! Enough of that...
I would not mind starting a Romans and Galations thread study as I believe would help clarify alot of the misunderstandings that are posed in Pauls writings. I always tell people if you quote a scripture make sure you read above and below it. That Romans 7 is a powerful chapter. When you know what the Law of sin and death is not the Torah but transgression and rebellion, it opens up you understanding more. I asked a good friend of mine if he really believed that God brought Israel out of the tyranny of Egyptian bondage (symbolized by sin) to espouse them to "the law of sin and death" (Torah- as is taught) or a flawed covenant which was impossible to keep? Then judge them and hold them accountable for breaking this flawed covenant that could not be kept and did so just to prove that we are sinners. This seems like cruelty!! If that was the case, why not leave me in slavery! It doesn't make sense if you think about! The problem with Israel was not with the covenant but with their uncircumcised, willful sinning heart! A stony heart or an uncircumcised heart can not keep God's commands. David said that he delighted in God's Torah! If this was sin and death...he would not make any sense! Oh yeah back to Romans (as you may see I'm a teleporter with my thinking LOL). If sin is "transgression of the law" as John tells us then we are not to continue therein because we are supposed to be dead to sin. We were under the enslavement of the "old man", married to bondage...but now that we are saved, the old man was crucified therefore we should walk (halachah) no longer in sin (lawlessness) but yield our bodies as instruments of righteousness.
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/29/2008 12:38:15 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
The problem with Israel was not with the covenant but with their uncircumcised, willful sinning heart! A stony heart or an uncircumcised heart can not keep God's commands.
Totally agree.
This morning we were discussing, as we ran across a couple accounts
of the Exodus in our reading of Psalms, that the Israelites were ASSIMILATED
into the pagan thinking and actions of the Egyptians. In their mindsets and
their forms of worship. That's what they were duplicating at the foot of Sinai.
I learned a lot in the background studies we did for our first Hanakkuh about
the assimilations. Now, I can see how Israel was still assimilated when they came
out of Egypt. Like that phrase, you can take the boy out of the country, but you
can't take the country out of the boy. This goes with some of our indoctrinations
as well. Which would cause a ping-pong affect in discussing it.
I learned many things studying the roots of Hanakkuh that is never learned by
just reading about and Oh, yeah, I know about that. Anyway, it's always good.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/29/2008 1:42:17 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 999
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Been there done that. I was put off by the fact that it was a bunch of non-Biblical (non-Torah) rituals and symbols
I guess that's why I'm put off by x-mas, easter... which has no bearing whatsoever in the Bible. LOL
Someone mentioned that we celebrate Christmas as a means of celebrating his by saying Dec. 25 was chosen "by accident" or like if I had a child and "accidently chose to celebrate it during Hitler's birthday..." Do you really believe that it was a coincidence that x-mas and easter (let's through lent in there) occur when it does?!
This is what I mean when I asked has anyone actually researched this in greater detail. You'll find out it wasn't accidental or coincidental...
Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
'Blog, Odeliya and others, tell me what this scripture means to you. Please feel free to make reference to the surrounding scriptures. It's your turn to play theologian and rightly divide this scripture!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/29/2008 1:42:21 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 934
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I wish I could show you how Paul, contrasts the oral law and the Written Law in his writings. Romans 2... Romans 10:3 speaks of it beautifully. "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness (Oral Law), have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God( His Word-Torah- The Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus)."
You are ignoring the fact that the righteousness from God that Paul speaks of is an imputed and freely given righteousness, not the righteousness of embracing or acknowledging the law, any law. If your definition of the righteousness that comes from God is the Mosaic law (as opposed to a righteousness that comes from false laws of Rabbi's) then it is still a righteosness of works dependant on your ability and success in following it. No thanks, I'll go with the righteousness that comes by being declared righteous apart from anything I can do, the righteousness Paul clearly teaches.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Phrases such as "works of the law", "law of sin and death" (which speaks of anything in violation of God's word including much of Oral Law)...there are probably more phrases but you get the picture.
The 'law of sin and death' is 'you sin you die'. This is what the law of Moses was all about. It detailed what you must do and the penalty for not doing it--the 'law of sin and death'.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I pointed out earlier how Timothy from a child was instructed out of the "Holy Scriptures" which was the TaNaKH...it contained instruction in righteousness, good for rebuke, doctrine...
I've been saying all along, it's the worship laws of the OT that do not need to be kept literally anymore. No one here says we are no longer under the continuing debt to love our fellow man. We get practical and useful illustrations of what loving your fellow man looks like in the old law. Nobody here is advocating throwing out the OT. Paul plainly tells us it has value if one uses it properly.
Everybody knows the gospel, the way to be saved through the forgiveness of sins, not the works of any law, is plainly seen in the OT. David himself is a shining example of salvation through forgiveness of sin, not works of sacrifice, or any other work of obedience according to the law.
He failed miserably at the works of the law to be righteous and had no choice but to throw himself on the mercy of God's court. How does that show us that the righteousness of God comes from the law? Quite the opposite in fact. But it clearly teaches us about the righteosness that comes down from God, apart from any law.
Thank God for the New Covenant.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/29/2008 1:46:22 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
BLue- To Sponge: Was it necessary for their salvation?
That is probably a bit of a unfortunate choice of wording. For it’s sort of like asking him: "If treating your wife nicely and with love, and not beating her up necessary for you to keep your current marital status? If you keep putting off fixing the back door and keep parking your socks under the bed among other misdemeanors, can Mrs Sponge (may God bless her richly) consider herself unmarried?"
Ridiculous, of course. For marriage ( salvation) is neither obtained, no maintained ,no kept by works.
Salvation is one thing , obeying laws is another.
Even in Judaism – true Judaism, not the version of it many people hold which is based on rabbinical demagoguery , general BS and other extras- Salvation. Comes. From. God.
God and only God saves. People’s salvation this side of Cross is the same as it was the other side- by grace of God, thru faith in Messaiah ( now we know it is Jesus).
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 5/29/2008 1:46:46 PM
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