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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 1:16:17 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2035
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quote:
ORIGINAL: labellavita
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Labellavita you would do well to pay attention to the words of Spongeblog. Many of the things you spoke of were dealt with already.
He (Spongeblog) saidquote:
Invariably, when a new person comes into the thread we pretty much have to start over. And I guess that's okay as long we get right down to the point of contention.
oh, boy, this was polite. I gave up reading about 20 pages into this. So sorry I'm making you deal with things again. And while Spongeblog may know alot, I don't know him and rely on my bible thank you.
"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. John 15:10
Good point, Labella  Bible is the King, but Bible doesnt say what is precisely the point of contention in the Keep the Law? debate thread. GC and Sponge meant no disrespect, they just were trying to get you up to speed, so you actually know what actually is under debate here.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 1:22:46 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2035
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quote:
OdeliyaI slept thu the part of the class where the name for such method was given,I cant recall it, but the example in simplest form is: to prove hypothetical "Anna", a really mean she-dog, is actually lovely:
1 Anna is a woman.
2. Women are lovely.
3. Anna is lovely.
Humans are not computers, and their perceptions are influenced by a lot of things, and while we agree on the second, vague, statement, it can lead to a false conclusion.
Once there is enough logical steps, anything can be proven or made "appear" right and true. That is the main principle on which Talmud is build 
Religion is a game .Give any rabbi worth his salt unlimited time to talk/pages to write and he can prove anything from the same old Tanakh. Same with politics, give me enough money for campaign/ media exposure and can guarantee you the sucessful election of my neighbors cat to any public office
BlueT:
The falacy in your example is the reflexive use of the word "are" in your second premise. Not all women are lovely.
Sure, I agree with you, BT, but 2nd statement doesn’t say "All women are lovely"
It's "Women are lovely"- the phrase that all current participants, very chivalrous gents would gladly agree on if someone were to present it. Unless they know ahead of time that the purpose of getting them agree is to further force into a logical corner - that witch Anna "is lovely, for she is a woman".
This is simplified way to explain. Notice, I mentioned unlimited amount of time, 23 steps, etc. etc. All statements presented in their own context can be right.A=B can still be wrong.
I share Sponge’s confidence – we all here are smart enought to not going to resort to it.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 1:28:33 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2035
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
There is no need to defame them crafty Jews.
You mean those crafty Talmudists? They don’t need outside help, they do the job themselves.
As for Jews in general… thanks for your niceness and honest protectiveness. I also jumped into the law related threads after seeing people acting ugly, in line with the worse stereotypes of selfish, self-centered Jewish behavior- "Poor me" "I am a Perpetual Victim", "Christians are out there to get me", "I am so misunderstood by those paganists" ..
If I only knew those Prozac ready whinies weren’t even Jewish! Remember "IServeAJEW"? I tried joking him, loosening him up, to make him stop giving the wrong message that Judaizing means acting as a spoiled brat. I worried that readers will think all Jews are like that. Not at all! There are bad sheep, but a good Jew is honest and loving,and tough and compassionate and God be with us, politically incorrect.
With all his zealousness ISAJ wouldn’t know a real Jew even if I sat on his lap!
Knowing theology pretty well doesn’t guarantee that person will treat his opponents with love of Christ. I appreciate you, BT, you are among a few from the LTcamp that actually tries to do both.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/30/2008 5:52:06 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1848
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
Gods word was as not hidden from them in the OT as many here seek to impart
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. (2Co 3:7-15)KJV
The old way, with laws etched in stone, led to death, though it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses' face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was already fading away. Shouldn't we expect far greater glory under the new way, now that the Holy Spirit is giving life? If the old way, which brings condemnation, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new way, which makes us right with God! In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new way. So if the old way, which has been replaced, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever! Since this new way gives us such confidence, we can be very bold. We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory, even though it was destined to fade away. But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. Yes, even today when they read Moses' writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand. (2Co 3:7 -15)NLT
LG…what am I missing here? I must be confused so please explain what Paul is telling us here?
Bob
Greetings
Hey Bob
quote:
LG…what am I missing here?
I am not sure...what’s up?
quote:
please explain what Paul is telling us here?
Ill try to make it simple, as allowed...
But ....the key is written in verse 14, and I will highlight the key words
3:14
But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, “because”… the veil is taken away in Christ.
First of all… if I am correct.....Paul was speaking of the religious system of the day, which is mentioned over and over again…by reason that THEY “taught” no love for God “to” the heart!
And that is the only thing the Law could not do…
So the tweak is to put the Love into the heart first, to enable them to keep the law.
So we when we seek first “the Kingdom”… we seek His Love,
AND…. His righteousness,
….well…. His righteousness is not found without the law.
Therefore the only way to reveal His love… is to reveal our sin first; it’s a plain and simple OT… reiteration style!
quote:
Gods word was as not hidden from them in the OT as many here seek to impart
quote:
LG…what am I missing here? (2Co 3:7-15)KJV
Are you familiar with John 8?
Now it is mentioned above that Gods word was as not hidden from them in the OT, and if that is true then why did Jesus say what He did in verse 56 below??
And as we read it, we can see Jesus correcting a contradiction that Abraham was their father by Jesus calling their father the devil; because they did not do the works of Abraham;
We see Jesus further exclaiming exactly what that work of Abraham was in v56… .
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
Ok …..now If one would really take notice to the word HE, that is an “individual statement” .....which is also and backed up by Simeon in
Lu 2:26 - Show Context
And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
SO……there were many individuals in the OT who were not veiled,
quote:
Gods word was as not hidden from them in the OT as many here seek to impart
quote:
LG…what am I missing here? (2Co 3:7-15)KJV
I am looking out for our messianic brethren or those who have had that veil removed, and of course to any Jews who may be present....first ….  The New covenant does not hold them accountable for not understanding the word; …..
Now for the rest of us Christians who have no excuse… even more so….; we are not going to be condemned for not understanding it.
The key is that there is a requirement; that they and all others in like manner are now required to hear the prophecy of the book, which is to lead one to Jesus,
Hebrews 1:1-3
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son,
The individuals God used in the past are somewhat different… it is not like it was in the old days when “certain individual” (prophets) were elected (who spoke in time past…. “to the fathers”),
.....In the NC it is now required that ALL are required to hear… at least once, so nothing has not changed.
Can you see that difference that the writer of Hebrews 1 was attempting to get across?
AS compared to just the fathers… and us…meaning ALL, everyone.
(Pink Floyd did a song on that called (Us, and them)
http://www.pink-floyd-lyrics.com/html/us-and-them-dark-lyrics.html
quote:
please explain what Paul is telling us here?
It’s like this Bob…. It is written in the scriptures and is mentioned many times; many Jews (Pharisees) Sadducees) tax collectors) ETC… (Individually) believed in Him in the OT….
The simple example I have shown above by the scriptures; compared to those passages you presented….
….Paul is speaking against the “religious system” (leaders) of the day, who in turn had no love for God, and were “keeping the people” from the truth ,
(all except those who believed in Him, even before the veil was even lifted. )
But as far as Church folk…
I guess that veil has taken on a whole new meaning,
......Because Church folk in this thread totally distort the prophecy to get Jews to understand! 
And that dose not fit according the program…
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2008 10:29:43 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1048
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, given our discussion to this point, we can conclude that there is an infinite creator who personally interacts with His creation and part of that interaction is recorded in the written word. If we agree on these points then we can move on.
I hear the train pulling out now. What's next?
I contend the above is what is meant by "The Lord our God, the Lord is one."
So you're saying that "there is an infinite creator who personally interacts with His creation and part of that interaction is recorded in the written word." means "The Lord our God, the Lord is one."?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Second, If everything else is finite, then we are finite and that which is finite is subject to that which is infinite. Thus, we have the second half of the greatest commandment. You shall love Adonai Elehenu(The Lord your God) with all your heart, with all you soul and with all your might. Which only makes sense since it is in Him we have our being.
If you agree with this statement, then we can agree on what the greatest commandment means. We then can look at how we fulfill(fully exemplify) that commandment.
If all you want to establish is that since God is infinately higher and greater than us then we owe Him our love and respect, then I have no problem with that. And I thought it was clear from the beginning that the thing we want to establsih is how do we do that as New Covenant believers. I feel like we went through a lot of stuff for nothing. The New Testament doesn't leave us New Covenant believers guessing how we infinite beings are to love our infinite creator.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2008 10:57:46 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: labellavita
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
We are not under the law. Paul says that Christians are not under law but under grace.
forgot to respond to this.
So Paul overrules what Jesus said?
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
All is not fulfilled yet.
If I remember correctly, not a single person has ever addressed what I point out about this passage. We all know and agree much, much more than just a 'jot or tiddle' has indeed passed from the law. Even Hebrews says the law has changed. And Jesus plainly said that can't happen until 'all is fulfilled'. So obviously all is fulfilled. The fulfillment that Jesus spoke about has occurred, or as some may say is 'occurring' beginning with the resurrection of Christ. So the argument that the law has not, and cannot change simply has no foundation whatsoever.
quote:
ORIGINAL: labellavita
The way to Him is the narrow way, not the wide way. I also think about who is it the dragon is concerned with and who he makes with. It says in Rev 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. He is concerned with those that keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus. Its BOTH. Not one or the other. Also, those that obey the commandments have the right to the Tree of Life (Rev 22:14).
I always give law keepers (as it's undertood in this thread) the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their claim that this is not a matter of salvation. But sooner or later someone tips their cards and makes it plain that, in the end, it really is a matter of salvation, whether they even realize it themselves or not. But I don't want to halt the discussion (because when you point that out to them, they want to end the discussion in frustration), so I'll continue to give you the benefit of the doubt that you meant something else. But it's hard not to see that you might believe there is a definate salvation connection in law keeping (again, how that is understood in this thread).
quote:
ORIGINAL: labellavita
Yes, we are saved by grace, but God expects something out of us beyond 'faith.' If he was that tough on the ancient Hebrews, why do we think he's going to be easy peasy on us?
I think what you are trying to say is salvation is by faith but that kind of faith (saving faith) will show itself by the keeping of the literal observances of the law. Don't you realize you are telling people who don't observe the OT laws of worship literally that they really don't have the faith that saves and are therefore not really saved? And this is exactly the thing I've been trying to point out. The NT teaches that godly love (as opposed to fleshly, carnal love) is the evidence of saving faith, not circumcision nor any other outward form of OT worship. They count for nothing.
I don't know if labellavita will be back, so I invite anybody to comment on this post.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/31/2008 11:19:34 PM
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bob97
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LG… two questions;
1: Would you agree that as stated in Hebrews 3:15-18, the people that Moses led out of Egypt rebelled; they never understood the message of the law and as a result were lost? In other words when Moses was read their hearts was covered with a veil of not understanding.
Remember what it says: "Today when you hear His voice, don't harden your hearts as Israel did when they rebelled." And who was it who rebelled against God, even though they heard His voice? Wasn't it the people Moses led out of Egypt? And who made God angry for forty years? Wasn't it the people who sinned, whose corpses lay in the wilderness? And to whom was God speaking when He took an oath that they would never enter His rest? Wasn't it the people who disobeyed Him? So we see that because of their unbelief they were not able to enter His rest. (Heb 3:15-18)
2: Would you agree that for the most part the Nation of Israel remains blinded today in regards to Christ? Of course there many saved that do believe in Christ but they are the minority, not the majority.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/1/2008 6:55:34 AM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: labellavita
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
We are not under the law. Paul says that Christians are not under law but under grace.
forgot to respond to this.
So Paul overrules what Jesus said?
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
All is not fulfilled yet.
1) How do you know all is not fulfilled yet? Because you hope so?
"so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:4, NASB)
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. (Romans 7: 6 NASB)
2) Besides, your interpretation of Jesus of contradicts Hebrews 8, especially verse 13. Jeremiah prophesied the transition of the Old Covenant and the initiation of a New Covenant.
"When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear."
This passage in Hebrews was written something close to 2,000 years ago. Don't you think we are long past the time that the Old Covenant has disappeared?
3) Furthermore, look at the words themselves you quoted: "one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." It does not say "All will not pass away until all is fulfilled" but rather "not one jot or one tittle..." I'm betting that you don't offer animal sacrifices. I am supposing further that you believe Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial system. Therefore, the animal sacrificial system is certainly waaaay more than a jot or tittle, don't you think?
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 8/1/2008 9:05:56 AM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/1/2008 9:56:15 AM
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mcleod
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Say LG
I can't believe you brought up the lyrics from a non-christian group. To add to the table. Pink Floyd, Oh no! That is a law breaker if I have ever seen one.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/1/2008 10:31:27 AM
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mcleod
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I just wish that those who profess that we need to keep the laws would start practicing what they preach.
I have encountered individuals who make the Pharsees look good and they go by the name of christians.
By the way I wish people would quit having to quote the anointed one when it is recorded. When he said that the Law will not be abolish until the great fullfilment is done. Which a lot of it was done at the cross. Then the rest when he a rose on the third day.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/1/2008 11:36:59 AM
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Lapidoth
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Just a side note.
Christians are Pharisees.
The doctrines in christianity come from the teachings of the Pharisees.
It's not a negative. Just the ones who claimed authority they didn't have.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/1/2008 11:59:03 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2035
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
Christians are Pharisees.
it's like Oklahomians are Rednecks.
well, sweet brother, that is too general of a statement. What do you mean by Pharisees? If anything, all that rabbinical bedlam sprouted from Phariseeism, in which way does it touch Christianity ?
quote:
The doctrines in christianity come from the teachings of the Pharisees.
It's not a negative. Just the ones who claimed authority they didn't have.
Quite possible, but elaborate plz. Which doctrines you have in mind?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/1/2008 1:16:32 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3319
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
it's like Oklahomians are Rednecks.
You got it. LOL.
In what way?
Here's the way I learned to tell the difference between the sadducees
and the pharisees.
The Sadducees don't believe in angels, resurrection, after life.
So they are sad-u-see.
The Pharisees do believe in angels, resurrection, after life, etc.
So they are fair-u-see.
The doctrines of christianity stem from the doctrines of the pharisees.
The Sadducees were more like our secular christianity.
So, truthfully, we have a lot to be grateful for to the Pharisees.
We have made the word pharisee into something derogatory.
And then, of course, there's all that Babylonian stuff from the papal systems.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/1/2008 3:42:41 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3319
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
The Sabbath Violator
Morris and Lenny are strolling home from shul one Saturday morning. Suddenly a cab speeds past, and their friend, Irving, is running frantically behind it, flailing his arms wildly.
"Well," said Lenny, "I never imagined our good friend Irving was a Sabbath violator! Look at him running for that taxi."
"Wait a minute," Morris replied. "Didn't you read that book I lent you, 'The Other Side of the Story', about the command to judge other people favorably? I'll bet we can think of hundreds of excuses for Irving's behavior."
"Yeah, like what?"
"Maybe he's sick and needs to go to the hospital."
"Come on! He was running 60 miles an hour after that cab - he's healthier than Arnold Schwartzeneger."
"Well, maybe his wife's having a baby."
"She had one last week."
"Well, maybe he needs to visit her in the hospital."
"She's home."
"Well, maybe he's running to the hospital to get a doctor."
"He is a doctor."
"Well, maybe he need supplies from the hospital."
"The hospital is a three minute walk in the opposite direction."
"Well, maybe he forgot that it's Shabbos!"
"Of course he knows it's Shabbos. Didn't you see his tie? It was his paisley beige 100% silk Gucci tie from Italy. He never wears it during the week."
"Wow, you're a really observant! I didn't even notice he was wearing a tie."
"How could you not notice? Didn't you see how it was caught on the back fender of the taxi?"
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/1/2008 3:46:20 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3319
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
McLaren also tells ChristianityToday.com the future of Christianity will also require Christians to "join humbly and charitably with people of other faiths -- Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, secularists and others -- in pursuit of peace, environmental stewardship," and other things that quote "matter greatly to the heart of God." But McMahon argues that what matters most to the heart of God is that individuals receive salvation on "his terms...through his gospel."
Sad.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/2/2008 4:24:52 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1145
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
I contend the above is what is meant by "The Lord our God, the Lord is one."
So you're saying that "there is an infinite creator who personally interacts with His creation and part of that interaction is recorded in the written word." means "The Lord our God, the Lord is one."?
The wording is very important here. When one says, "The Lord our God, the Lord is one.", that person is acknowledging that there is an infinite creator who personally interacts with His creation and we know that because that interaction, in part, is recorded in the written word. To equate the phrase with definition is to deminish it. However, for the purposes of understanding our relationship with Him, I would say this definition is sufficient.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Second, If everything else is finite, then we are finite and that which is finite is subject to that which is infinite. Thus, we have the second half of the greatest commandment. You shall love Adonai Elehenu(The Lord your God) with all your heart, with all you soul and with all your might. Which only makes sense since it is in Him we have our being.
If you agree with this statement, then we can agree on what the greatest commandment means. We then can look at how we fulfill(fully exemplify) that commandment.
If all you want to establish is that since God is infinately higher and greater than us then we owe Him our love and respect, then I have no problem with that. And I thought it was clear from the beginning that the thing we want to establsih is how do we do that as New Covenant believers. I feel like we went through a lot of stuff for nothing. The New Testament doesn't leave us New Covenant believers guessing how we infinite beings are to love our infinite creator.
Emphasis Mine
I hope this was a typo. My point is that we are not infinite.
I will presume agreement and move on. If there isn't agreement, then we will have to go back and work that out.
Hold on, we are going to enter controversial waters here, but let's try not to speculate. Just address to arguement.
Now, sense Adonai is infinite, we can do nothing without Him. Thus, Adonai must make this possible and that is in fact what He did when He created us. He breathed into us the Ruach(breath of life). So, all men have within them Ruach Ha Adonai(The Spirit of God). Since nothing can exist outside of Adonai and that which is good is from Adonai, Ruach Ha Adonai(The Spirit of God) is but another name for Adonai. This is what I believe it means when Adonai says, "Let us make man in our own image". There was no need for Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Spirit set apart for a purpose) at creation for there was but one Spirit and that Spirit was not diminished.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/2/2008 10:59:04 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
McLaren also tells ChristianityToday.com the future of Christianity will also require Christians to "join humbly and charitably with people of other faiths -- Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, secularists and others -- in pursuit of peace, environmental stewardship," and other things that quote "matter greatly to the heart of God." But McMahon argues that what matters most to the heart of God is that individuals receive salvation on "his terms...through his gospel."
Sad.
I tried to dig up a little more explanation about this quote, like the context in which it was spoken. I couldn't find much except that the mission of the 'Matthew 25' group is political, not religous, although it is clearly motivated by Christ's teaching for us to care for 'the least of these'.
I'm not ready to understand this as their wholesale acceptance of other religions. It seems to be more of an attempt to find practical, real world solutions through cooperation, not alienation, because, as the far right as proven in the last 15 years, it does no good to polarize and alienate yourself from the world to effect change or be influential. It actually does more to defeat the good you want to do.
But sadly, even if their agenda is purely political, all this will be probably be misunderstood as an acceptance of the 'all religions lead to God' thinking. Their stance on homosexuality will probably reveal alot about what their true agenda is all about. It is funny to note, but atheists embrace Matthew 25 as defense of their good works (just in case there really is a God).
In fairness to Mclaren, LGyp ought to dig up some info about what he actually means by what he said. Does he mean we need to just get along in the political process so we can all benefit and actually get something done, and we as Christians can do what we've been called to do? Or is he saying we must embrace other religions to survive as Christians? I think we'll find the former is true, not the latter, but I could be wrong. But a simple email to the author, or the organization by LGyp will answer it quickly for us.
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/2/2008 11:31:36 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
...The New Testament doesn't leave us New Covenant believers guessing how we infinite beings are to love our infinite creator.
Emphasis Mine
I hope this was a typo. My point is that we are not infinite.
Yep, it's a typo. I just asked my wife. She's pretty sure I'm finite.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I will presume agreement and move on. If there isn't agreement, then we will have to go back and work that out.
No, no, please. I'm in agreement.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Hold on, we are going to enter controversial waters here, but let's try not to speculate. Just address to arguement.
Now, sense Adonai is infinite, we can do nothing without Him. Thus, Adonai must make this possible and that is in fact what He did when He created us. He breathed into us the Ruach(breath of life). So, all men have within them Ruach Ha Adonai(The Spirit of God).
Only in a creative sense. Not in a relational one. Every molecule in creation holds together because of God. That's the only way I accept the Spirit of God in creation right now. If we had the Holy Spirit already in a relationship, there would be no need for the required reconciliation that the gospel speaks about.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Since nothing can exist outside of Adonai and that which is good is from Adonai, Ruach Ha Adonai(The Spirit of God) is but another name for Adonai. This is what I believe it means when Adonai says, "Let us make man in our own image". There was no need for Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Spirit set apart for a purpose) at creation for there was but one Spirit and that Spirit was not diminished.
This is getting too lofty for me. I'm a practical kind of person. Things generally have to have solid practical meaning and application for me. You're probably heading in that direction, so carry on.
To me, 'made in the image of God' presently speaks more of His character than anything else. I think Colossians 3:9-10 bears this out:
" 9Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator."
Paul says in a couple of places that this inner renewal process is taking place right now, which is evidence that it is a matter of character, not a physical one. As I've shared, it's the physical part of how all this plays out that is still a mystery.
I Don't want to get too lofty and theoretical with this, but I'll wait while you build your argument. What's next?
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 8/2/2008 11:39:05 AM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/2/2008 6:08:45 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 886
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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Labellavista, welcome to Crosswalk. Thank Elohim for some ew blood! LOL You jumped right into the frying pan! LOL!!
I enjoy your posts and agree with you. I'm been a lurker as of late and been enjoying reading the posts. Blue, you are 'in the zone', although I do tend to skim over it alot. Elohim bless you all!
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7,9
You mean there was grace in the Old Testament?!!!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/2/2008 7:35:10 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
McLaren also tells ChristianityToday.com the future of Christianity will also require Christians to "join humbly and charitably with people of other faiths -- Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, secularists and others -- in pursuit of peace, environmental stewardship," and other things that quote "matter greatly to the heart of God." But McMahon argues that what matters most to the heart of God is that individuals receive salvation on "his terms...through his gospel."
Sad.
Greetings,
Well it is noble statement, I mean since we all share the same earth...
This little mention; right here is the key.... "the future of Christianity will also require
Who is this guy kidding, and according to our Father himself didn't He say in the books of the Law that it is He who gives the power to get wealth?
.........Judging by the ingredients mentioned with the exception of Muslim and Jews concerning those proposed nations who seem to touch the heart of God concerning environmental stewardship; they seem to be thems | | |
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