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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/4/2008 9:16:21 AM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, do you believe the breath of life was just oxygen or was it the essence of life?
The essence of life.
"17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (Col. 1:17)
This is why I believe every molecule of creation holds together and is sustained by Him.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
In Hebrew words used for breath and spirit are similar terms both having the essence of breath and spirit. Adonai is The Ruach (Spirit or Breath). In creating us he made us a living soul by giving us the Neshamah(spirit or breath) of life. Now, what is it that maintains that breath or spirit? Are we perpetual motion machines or are we sustained by Adonai? Would we exist if Adonai did not permit it? I don't mean to overwhelm you with questions. I am just saying the same question in several ways so that you might understand what I am asking.
Everything about our existense is sustained by God:
28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' (Acts 17:28)
This speaks of not only our natural bodies, but the very life within us.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If our existance is dependant on Adonai sustaining us by maintaining our breath or spirit, that is a relationship. Whenever one thing is dependant on another there is a relationship.
But it's not a spiritual relationship. It was to an extent with Adam and Eve, but it ended there because of the fall. Nobody after them has had the privelege of that spiritual relationship without God restoring it to them in some way. That's what the gospel of reconciliation is all about.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
As I stated above, Adonai is The Ruach (Spirit or Breath). When Adonai said, "Let us make man in our own image" he was speaking of giving us the Neshamah(spirit or breath) of life, which is like unto The Ruach (Spirit or Breath). Practically speaking man is like Adonai in that there is something in man that is more than flesh and blood, instict and emotion.
Agreed. But again, not in an intimate relational way in our fallen state.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
The problem with calling it character is that that term is often used to refer to something that is not essential for living. One can say one has bad character yet he continues to exist.
The problem with calling it character is the fact that it isn't God's character. We are in fact characterized by certain things as fallen human beings. And that charcter is definately not God's character. And that is my point. The life we have in the beginning is not relational in that sense.
And I don't agree with character not being essential for life, unless you mean biological existence. Which I would agree with. But character is absolutely essential to life above and beyond simple existence. That's what eternal life is all about. It's a quality of life, not just existing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Let me explain it this way. To my understanding Ha Ruach(The Spirit) is like heat and light, these are Scriptural analogies. Practically speaking, cold and dark do not exist. They are defined as the absence of heat and light. Heat and light are different manifestations of energy or molecular motion.
If there were no heat or light, there would not be cold and dark. There would be nothing. In the same way, we derive our spirit from Ruach Ha Adonai(The Spirit of Adonai), thus an evil spirit is just that which is not of Ruach Ha Adonai. Its existence is in contrast to Adonai. Without Adonai it does not exist.
The same is not true of Ha Ruach. With energy, if everything were in motion absolute heat and light would exist and absolute cold and dark would still not exist. Since, somethings are in motion and not everything is in motion, cold and dark exist as relative terms. In the same way if every spirit (Neshamah)was full of Ruach Ha Adonai, evil would not exist. Evil exists because not every spirit (Neshamah) is full of Ruach Ha Adonai.
I'd have to think about this a little more before I affirm it. I'm short on time right now.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, practically speaking, the spirit of man (Neshamah) after the fall is like an incondescent lightbulb with short in the connection. He possesses heat and light, but that heat and light are diminished due to a limited connection with the power source(Ha Ruach). Before the fall everything was good, because we were running on full power and the power (Neshamah) was not diminished. Therefore, it was not necessary to differentiate between Ha Ruach(The Spirit) and Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit), because every spirit was holy(set apart for a purpose), and they fulfilled that purpose. Today not every spirit fulfills that purpose for which it should be set apart.
Not ready to affirm this yet. It's seems you are, in effect, saying the spirit of a man and the Spirit of God are one and the same thing. I do not agree with that at all. I have to run. I need more time to think these through. I'm not real sure it's necessary to properly understand this to know why God is worthy of worship.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/4/2008 11:02:40 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 838
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quote:
If there were no heat or light, there would not be cold and dark.
Oh boy am I missing something here? Two negatives can't equal postive. If Iam understanding this right.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/4/2008 5:48:01 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1161
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, do you believe the breath of life was just oxygen or was it the essence of life?
The essence of life.
"17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (Col. 1:17)
This is why I believe every molecule of creation holds together and is sustained by Him.
I am not talking about inanimate objects or even animals. I am talking about the breath(spirit) of life, that was given to us before the fall.
quote:
Everything about our existense is sustained by God:
28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' (Acts 17:28)
This speaks of not only our natural bodies, but the very life within us.
Exactly, would we not cease to exist, if Adonai did not graciously continue to allow us to "live and move and have our being"?
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If our existance is dependant on Adonai sustaining us by maintaining our breath or spirit, that is a relationship. Whenever one thing is dependant on another there is a relationship.
But it's not a spiritual relationship. It was to an extent with Adam and Eve, but it ended there because of the fall. Nobody after them has had the privelege of that spiritual relationship without God restoring it to them in some way. That's what the gospel of reconciliation is all about.
So, you are saying that Adonai sustaining us, by graciously contiuing to provide the spirit(breath) of life, is not a spiritual relationship?
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
As I stated above, Adonai is The Ruach (Spirit or Breath). When Adonai said, "Let us make man in our own image" he was speaking of giving us the Neshamah(spirit or breath) of life, which is like unto The Ruach (Spirit or Breath). Practically speaking man is like Adonai in that there is something in man that is more than flesh and blood, instict and emotion.
Agreed. But again, not in an intimate relational way in our fallen state.
Again, how is Adonai sustaining us, by graciously contiuing to provide the spirit(breath) of life, not an intimate relationship. I can think of nothing more intimate than maintaining ones life.
quote:
The problem with calling it character is the fact that it isn't God's character. We are in fact characterized by certain things as fallen human beings. And that charcter is definately not God's character. And that is my point. The life we have in the beginning is not relational in that sense.
That is why I am reluctant to refer to the spirit(breath) of life as character. Adonai provided the spirit(breath) of life and it was good. If we equate the spirit(breath) of life with character, then you are saying that "certain things as fallen human beings" make up the spirit(breath) of life. What I propose is that those "certain things as fallen human beings" are not the spirit(breath) of life, but greave or diminish that spirit. Also, as the spirit(breath) of life is diminished, so is the relationship and to that extent we are dead or dieing.
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And I don't agree with character not being essential for life, unless you mean biological existence. Which I would agree with. But character is absolutely essential to life above and beyond simple existence. That's what eternal life is all about. It's a quality of life, not just existing.
Yes, a man may simply exist biologically and still have the spirit(breath) of life. If he did not he would not be a man. Also, quality of life without a standard is relative and Adonai provides that standard. The more one fosters the spirit(breath) of life, the more he emulates the image of Adonai and this is truly living.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Let me explain it this way. To my understanding Ha Ruach(The Spirit) is like heat and light, these are Scriptural analogies. Practically speaking, cold and dark do not exist. They are defined as the absence of heat and light. Heat and light are different manifestations of energy or molecular motion.
If there were no heat or light, there would not be cold and dark. There would be nothing. In the same way, we derive our spirit from Ruach Ha Adonai(The Spirit of Adonai), thus an evil spirit is just that which is not of Ruach Ha Adonai. Its existence is in contrast to Adonai. Without Adonai it does not exist.
The same is not true of Ha Ruach. With energy, if everything were in motion absolute heat and light would exist and absolute cold and dark would still not exist. Since, somethings are in motion and not everything is in motion, cold and dark exist as relative terms. In the same way if every spirit (Neshamah)was full of Ruach Ha Adonai, evil would not exist. Evil exists because not every spirit (Neshamah) is full of Ruach Ha Adonai.
I'll await your response once you have time to digest this.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, practically speaking, the spirit of man (Neshamah) after the fall is like an incondescent lightbulb with short in the connection. He possesses heat and light, but that heat and light are diminished due to a limited connection with the power source(Ha Ruach). Before the fall everything was good, because we were running on full power and the power (Neshamah) was not diminished. Therefore, it was not necessary to differentiate between Ha Ruach(The Spirit) and Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit), because every spirit was holy(set apart for a purpose), and they fulfilled that purpose. Today not every spirit fulfills that purpose for which it should be set apart.
Not ready to affirm this yet. It's seems you are, in effect, saying the spirit of a man and the Spirit of God are one and the same thing. I do not agree with that at all. I have to run. I need more time to think these through. I'm not real sure it's necessary to properly understand this to know why God is worthy of worship.
Again I will give you time to develop a clear response.
For now, I will say that I am not saying that the spirit of a man and the Spirit of God are one and the same thing. I can see where one might get that impression. That is why this concept creates controversy. It is at this point that Mary Baker Eddy and I part ways. What I am saying is that the spirit of man is at best an image of Adonai and is sustained by Him. As we depart from that image we lose resolution if you will and evetually become nothing more than static.
We have already established that Adonai is worthy of worship. What we are determining now is what kind of worship is worthy of Adonai. If you wish to bring acceptable gifts to your wife, you must know who she is and the nature of your relationship. I submit it is the same with Adonai.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/4/2008 8:33:27 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2055
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Gypsy:
McLaren also tells ChristianityToday.com the future of Christianity will also require Christians to "join humbly and charitably with people of other faiths -- Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, secularists and others -- in pursuit of peace, environmental stewardship," and other things that quote "matter greatly to the heart of God." But McMahon argues that what matters most to the heart of God is that individuals receive salvation on "his terms...through his gospel
Carl: ( where is the mensh, btw?)
Sad.
Gypsy:
Greetings,
Well it is noble statement, I mean since we all share the same earth...
This little mention; right here is the key.... "the future of Christianity will also require
Who is this guy kidding, and according to our Father himself didn't He say in the books of the Law that it is He who gives the power to get wealth?
.........Judging by the ingredients mentioned with the exception of Muslim and Jews concerning those proposed nations who seem to touch the heart of God concerning environmental stewardship; they seem to be themselves stricken with extreme poverty
Any thoughts?
I am firmly with Gyp. After some digging and trying to translate the quotes from the usual politically correct celebrity preacher-ese into english it appears as if he tries to have it both ways, look good from every angle and flirt with all at once.
Appreciate Spongie graciously trying to give weasel the benefit of the doubt - he is nicer person then i, the sarcastic dog, but to me it smelled like a crook right away.
My verdict:
it's indeed ,Secular Christianity + some latent humanism + usual marketology = Emergent .. whatever that they call their joint.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/4/2008 9:51:20 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Let me explain it this way. To my understanding Ha Ruach(The Spirit) is like heat and light, these are Scriptural analogies. Practically speaking, cold and dark do not exist. They are defined as the absence of heat and light. Heat and light are different manifestations of energy or molecular motion.
If there were no heat or light, there would not be cold and dark. There would be nothing. In the same way, we derive our spirit from Ruach Ha Adonai(The Spirit of Adonai), thus an evil spirit is just that which is not of Ruach Ha Adonai. Its existence is in contrast to Adonai. Without Adonai it does not exist.
The same is not true of Ha Ruach. With energy, if everything were in motion absolute heat and light would exist and absolute cold and dark would still not exist. Since, somethings are in motion and not everything is in motion, cold and dark exist as relative terms. In the same way if every spirit (Neshamah)was full of Ruach Ha Adonai, evil would not exist. Evil exists because not every spirit (Neshamah) is full of Ruach Ha Adonai.
The problem I'm having with all this is you are trying to liken the essence of God to that of the sciences, like biology and physics. I can't subscribe to that at all. God's Holy Spirit is not so much a force as He is an intelligent being who can act apart from predictable scientific outcomes. And we, likewise, have the choice of how to respond to that being apart from predictable and predetermined outcomes as a matter of science and the laws of the universe.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, practically speaking, the spirit of man (Neshamah) after the fall is like an incondescent lightbulb with short in the connection. He possesses heat and light, but that heat and light are diminished due to a limited connection with the power source(Ha Ruach). Before the fall everything was good, because we were running on full power and the power (Neshamah) was not diminished. Therefore, it was not necessary to differentiate between Ha Ruach(The Spirit) and Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit), because every spirit was holy(set apart for a purpose), and they fulfilled that purpose. Today not every spirit fulfills that purpose for which it should be set apart.
I don't like the exclusion of intelligence and choice in your analogies. They can't be measured. They can't be manipulated irresistably and predictably like principles of electricity or biology or physics. Intelligence, and will are not governed by hard and fast laws of the universe. That's where all this breaks down.
You can't take humans with the attributes of choice and intellect and subject them to variables in a controlled labratory setting and achieve predictable results. I can't reduce the relationship between God and man to this level. The perfect labratory conditions of Eden are proof of what I'm saying.
As much as the Holy Spirit is absolutely necessary to live like God, it is man's free will that is the final determining factor of whether we are going to be like God. God's mission is much, much more than just giving us the power to be like Him. He's changing the will of man to be like Him by choosing to purposely walk in the Spirit He provides.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/4/2008 10:37:59 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If our existance is dependant on Adonai sustaining us by maintaining our breath or spirit, that is a relationship. Whenever one thing is dependant on another there is a relationship.
But it's not a spiritual relationship. It was to an extent with Adam and Eve, but it ended there because of the fall. Nobody after them has had the privelege of that spiritual relationship without God restoring it to them in some way. That's what the gospel of reconciliation is all about.
So, you are saying that Adonai sustaining us, by graciously contiuing to provide the spirit(breath) of life, is not a spiritual relationship?
It's only 'spiritual' in that He created our spirits.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Again, how is Adonai sustaining us, by graciously contiuing to provide the spirit(breath) of life, not an intimate relationship. I can think of nothing more intimate than maintaining ones life.
I can. It's like the difference between making a baby and living in a distant city, and writing a check every month to make sure it's needs get met vs. actually being around and interacting with the child while you provide the support it needs for continued life. In both cases the parent is providing for the continuation of that child's life. But one relationship is far more intimate and meaningful than the other. It's no different between God and man.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2008 5:51:13 PM
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manichunter
Posts: 63
Joined: 6/2/2008
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This is a mystery to me I am trying to discover. Study with me.
Here is the boggle:
How can a Christian receive grace without a law as to allow them to escape judgment from sin, and receive the mercy and grace of God at the end of their trusting God for His grace for the remission of sin which required judgment as defined by a law?
I am in law enforcement. I have a level of authority and discretion in my manner of how to handle criminal offenses as defined by civil and criminal laws. If I detain someone for an ounce of weed, I can take them into custody with their contraband or confiscate their contraband and let them go. My grace upon this person is dependant upon the laws I have to follow in the performance of my duties as proscribed by laws.
_____________________________
Where is your Berean spirit. Challege everything to determine if you be of the faith. The devil is a tough foe. The messages have to be hard and piercing. So be it, count all things lost. Now off to the hunt to save souls!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2008 6:37:39 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1161
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
The problem I'm having with all this is you are trying to liken the essence of God to that of the sciences, like biology and physics. I can't subscribe to that at all. God's Holy Spirit is not so much a force as He is an intelligent being who can act apart from predictable scientific outcomes. And we, likewise, have the choice of how to respond to that being apart from predictable and predetermined outcomes as a matter of science and the laws of the universe.
First you say I am being too lofty and you are a practical person. So, I present the concept in terms of a biblical analogy and you say I am "trying to liken the essence of God to that of the sciences". What I am trying to do is communicate the concept. Of course, heat and light do not capture the totality of Ruach Ha Adonai(The Spirit of Adonai). What they do is exemplify the effect of Adonai's power in our lives. I am not making any points about predestination, so, who is controlling the dimmer switch is not important here. The point is as the power goes up, by Adondai's grace or by our choices, we become more alive. As the power goes down we become less alive(die), until finally when Adonai's power(Spirit) is gone we no longer exist or if you prefer exist as an inanimate object.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, practically speaking, the spirit of man (Neshamah) after the fall is like an incondescent lightbulb with short in the connection. He possesses heat and light, but that heat and light are diminished due to a limited connection with the power source(Ha Ruach). Before the fall everything was good, because we were running on full power and the power (Neshamah) was not diminished. Therefore, it was not necessary to differentiate between Ha Ruach(The Spirit) and Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit), because every spirit was holy(set apart for a purpose), and they fulfilled that purpose. Today not every spirit fulfills that purpose for which it should be set apart.
I don't like the exclusion of intelligence and choice in your analogies. They can't be measured. They can't be manipulated irresistably and predictably like principles of electricity or biology or physics. Intelligence, and will are not governed by hard and fast laws of the universe. That's where all this breaks down.
quote:
You can't take humans with the attributes of choice and intellect and subject them to variables in a controlled labratory setting and achieve predictable results. I can't reduce the relationship between God and man to this level. The perfect labratory conditions of Eden are proof of what I'm saying.
As much as the Holy Spirit is absolutely necessary to live like God, it is man's free will that is the final determining factor of whether we are going to be like God. God's mission is much, much more than just giving us the power to be like Him. He's changing the will of man to be like Him by choosing to purposely walk in the Spirit He provides .
That is why it is called an analogy, a comparison for limited illustrative purposes. Intelligence and choice are not excluded. Intelligence and choice are what create the "short circuit" or lack therefof. The Scriptures clearly state that more grace is given to some and not others. Again, at his point, whether it is man's free will or Adonai changing us that causes this difference is not the question at this point. The only point I am making is that how alive someone is is dependent on how much of Adonai's Spirit is active in that person.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, you are saying that Adonai sustaining us, by graciously contiuing to provide the spirit(breath) of life, is not a spiritual relationship?
It's only 'spiritual' in that He created our spirits.
Then I guess we need to discuss what spiritual means. Are you saying that creation was a spiritual act, but keeping us alive is not a spiritual act?
quote:
quote:
I can think of nothing more intimate than maintaining ones life.
I can. It's like the difference between making a baby and living in a distant city, and writing a check every month to make sure it's needs get met vs. actually being around and interacting with the child while you provide the support it needs for continued life. In both cases the parent is providing for the continuation of that child's life. But one relationship is far more intimate and meaningful than the other. It's no different between God and man.
You are talking about degree and not the essence of the act. "Child support" is not keeping someone alive. However, if that is all a parent did, that would be the most inimate act on that parents part. The most intimate and important thing a parent can do is protect the life of a child, As Yeshua says, "Greater love has no man than to give his life for a friend . . ."
Now, do you agree that how alive one is is dependant in how much Adonai's Spirit is involved in ones life?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 8/6/2008 5:11:09 PM >
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2008 8:02:44 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I guess we need to discuss what spiritual means. Are you saying that creation was a spiritual act, but keeping us alive is not a spiritual act?
Everything in creation, both physical and spiritual is sustained by the Spirit of God. In that sense everything is 'spiritual'. Every single element of creation, physical and spiritual, continues to exist and not fly apart into chaos because of God Himself holding it all together by His Spirit.
'Spiritual' and 'moral' are not the same thing. They are not always interchangable. I think that's where the disconnect is here between us. A physical matter is not a spiritual matter apart from it's moral implications. Maybe morality can be understood as the intersection of the physical and the spiritual. That's the connection between spirit and matter that I think you're trying to grasp.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
"Child support" is not keeping someone alive. However, if that is all a parent did, that would be the most inimate act on that parents part. The most intimate and important thing a parent can do is protect the life of a child, As Yeshua says, "Greater love has no man than to give his life for a friend . . ."
This is another good example of where our English language fails so miserably compared to Greek. There is biological 'life', and there is 'spiritual', or 'soulish' life (spirit may not be the right word). I don't remember the Greek words for those, but they do clear up a lot of misunderstanding and draw the lines clearer on this discussion of life. Physical and spiritual life are definately separate but can and do influence one another. The 'life' that Jesus came to give us is above and beyond simple biological life. The worst of sinners enjoys abundance of physical life and the pleasures of being a biological creature in this world. Jesus came to give us a different measure of life. And He taught us how to lay hold of it and keep it. And it's not measured by the abundance of outward physical things, though it certainly affects them. Knowing all this helps to understand there is a distinction in having the Spirit in creation, and having the Spirit in relationship.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Now, do you agree that how alive one is is dependant in how much Adonai's Spirit is involved in ones life?
If you mean spiritually, then yes. Physically, no. Jesus made it clear that God doesn't play favorites when it comes to the sun and the rain. Acts 14:15-17 is one of my favorite passages of scripture because it shows us the unconditional love God has for all of mankind. Life is good for sinner and saint alike because of the love of God:
"We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them. 16In the past, he let all nations go their own way. 17Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy." "
But He clearly favors and blesses the person spiritually who purposely seeks Him. That's what spiritual reconciliation is all about.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2008 8:10:45 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
..."Child support" is not keeping someone alive. However, if that is all a parent did, that would be the most inimate act on that parents part. The most intimate and important thing a parent can do is protect the life of a child, As Yeshua says, "Greater love has no man than to give his life for a friend . . ."
I must address this directly.
The 'life' Christ died to give us is not bread and water. This is why it's so important to understand the clear difference between the biological and the spiritual life that comes from God. "Man does not live on bread alone..."
You're going to have to start making a distinction between spiritual and biological life because there is a clear difference between the two. God easily puts the greater import on spiritual life, even telling us to forsake the physical for the spiritual.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2008 10:01:41 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1792
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
How can a Christian receive grace without a law as to allow them to escape judgment from sin, and receive the mercy and grace of God at the end of their trusting God for His grace for the remission of sin which required judgment as defined by a law?
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. (1Co 13:1-13)
I can have all the laws, but if I have not charity I have nothing. If I do not love my God with all my heart, soul and mind and if I do not love my neighbor as myself then I am dead to every law ever issued because they are meaningless without love. The law only shows that I am without love.
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/6/2008 5:16:48 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1161
Joined: 11/8/2007
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ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I guess we need to discuss what spiritual means. Are you saying that creation was a spiritual act, but keeping us alive is not a spiritual act?
Everything in creation, both physical and spiritual is sustained by the Spirit of God. In that sense everything is 'spiritual'. Every single element of creation, physical and spiritual, continues to exist and not fly apart into chaos because of God Himself holding it all together by His Spirit.
'Spiritual' and 'moral' are not the same thing. They are not always interchangable. I think that's where the disconnect is here between us. A physical matter is not a spiritual matter apart from it's moral implications. Maybe morality can be understood as the intersection of the physical and the spiritual. That's the connection between spirit and matter that I think you're trying to grasp.
I do not recall having brought up morality or the word "moral" in my explanation of why I believe the way I do. I believe you asked me to give that explanation. Maybe we should go back to you guessing what I believe and why I believe it, but if I recall you didn't like that very much. Let's focus on your statement, "Every single element of creation, physical and spiritual, continues to exist and not fly apart into chaos because of God Himself holding it all together by His Spirit." Can I presume the converse is also true? Anything that is not held together by the Spirit of Adonai will fly off into chaos?
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
"Child support" is not keeping someone alive. However, if that is all a parent did, that would be the most inimate act on that parents part. The most intimate and important thing a parent can do is protect the life of a child, As Yeshua says, "Greater love has no man than to give his life for a friend . . ."
This is another good example of where our English language fails so miserably compared to Greek. There is biological 'life', and there is 'spiritual', or 'soulish' life (spirit may not be the right word). I don't remember the Greek words for those, but they do clear up a lot of misunderstanding and draw the lines clearer on this discussion of life. Physical and spiritual life are definately separate but can and do influence one another. The 'life' that Jesus came to give us is above and beyond simple biological life. The worst of sinners enjoys abundance of physical life and the pleasures of being a biological creature in this world. Jesus came to give us a different measure of life. And He taught us how to lay hold of it and keep it. And it's not measured by the abundance of outward physical things, though it certainly affects them. Knowing all this helps to understand there is a distinction in having the Spirit in creation, and having the Spirit in relationship.
Yes, the greek philosophers Plato and Aristotle postulated that there was a dictomy between the physical and the spiritual. Aristotle believed the former had priority, as did the Sadducees, while Plato considered the spiritual to be the only important thing, as did the Essenes. However, though the unregenerate man may struggle with the flesh, I contend he also struggles with the spirit. Speaking regarding idolotry Paul says, (2 Corinthians 7:1) "Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God."
Also, I do not think Paul speaks very much of the flesh, in the way you just did. After mentioning the second great commandment and before listing several specific sins, he says, (Ga 5:17)"For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature." This sinful nature includes the spirit, soul and body for after listing several things, both physical and spiritual, he says, (1Th 5:23)"May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Now, do you agree that how alive one is is dependant in how much Adonai's Spirit is involved in ones life?
If you mean spiritually, then yes. Physically, no. Jesus made it clear that God doesn't play favorites when it comes to the sun and the rain. Acts 14:15-17 is one of my favorite passages of scripture because it shows us the unconditional love God has for all of mankind. Life is good for sinner and saint alike because of the love of God:
"We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them. 16In the past, he let all nations go their own way. 17Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy." "
Of course spiritually, but why this obsession with creating a dicotomy between the physical and the spiritual. In context, Paul, in Acts 14, is telling those who are trying to make a sacrifice to him that they should not do that, because they should recognize that there is an infinite personal creator from nature. In other words the physical bares wittness to the spiritual. This is not a dicotomy, but an attempt to show the unity between Adonai and His creation. It is true most of Paul's references to spirit refer to the Spirit of Adonai, but that is because that is the goal. Adonai is interested in redeeming the whole man spirit, soul and body, as I quoted before. That is why Paul says, (Ro 12:1)"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship". So, what we do physically is a spiritual act also.
Now, we are getting a little ahead of ourselves here. Right now, all I am asking is whether one is closer to death as ones spirit ventures away from Adonai's Spirit and one becomes more alive as ones spirit gets more in line with Adonai's Spirit. Is this not what Adonai meant when He told us in the garden, (Gen. 2:16b & 17)"You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."? We did not die then and there, because Adonai provided a sacrifice. However, we did die in part then and continue to do so today, when we do not do that which is good. As Jacov(James) tells us in the context of planning for the future, (Jas 4:17) "Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins."
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The 'life' Christ died to give us is not bread and water. This is why it's so important to understand the clear difference between the biological and the spiritual life that comes from God. "Man does not live on bread alone..."
You're going to have to start making a distinction between spiritual and biological life because there is a clear difference between the two. God easily puts the greater import on spiritual life, even telling us to forsake the physical for the spiritual Emphasis mine
Yeshua did not tell the Accuser that man did not live by bread. He said, "by bread alone" meaning that we need more than bread. What more do we need? (Mt 4:4bB) Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of Adonai.'" Also, where is that written? Oh that's right Deut. 8:3 "He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of Adonai." So, where does Adonai state this "distinction between spiritual and biological life" that I am going to have to start making. That sounds like a direct commandment to me, so it should be easy to find.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 8/6/2008 5:47:06 AM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/6/2008 5:50:35 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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Bluethread,
I can see you're not getting it. I'm not sure I have the time and energy to post the many scriptures that contradict much of what you are saying here.
The physical part of salvation is yet to come. For now it's all about nurturing the 'spiritual' life within us. Not the biological or even the soulish life within us. Of course he's interested in that life, too. But it is not as directly connected to salvaion as you think. What Jesus and Paul both point out is that God dispenses the joys and pleasures (and sufferings) of this life without regard to person. But this is not true at all in regard to the spritual life God gives.
You are aware of the one sin that is against the body of a man, aren't you? And Jesus made it clear what really makes a man unclean. It's all about character and how that character plays out in what we do and say. Ceremonies, procedures, and laws of worship count for nothing now that we have New Covenant revelation of what God requires in the heart of a man now that the ministry of the Holy Spirit is in the world.
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/6/2008 5:58:13 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
The 'life' Christ died to give us is not bread and water. This is why it's so important to understand the clear difference between the biological and the spiritual life that comes from God. "Man does not live on bread alone..."
You're going to have to start making a distinction between spiritual and biological life because there is a clear difference between the two. God easily puts the greater import on spiritual life, even telling us to forsake the physical for the spiritual Emphasis mine
Yeshua did not tell the Accuser that man did not live by bread. He said, "by bread alone" meaning that we need more than bread. What more do we need? (Mt 4:4bB) Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of Adonai.'" Also, where is that written? Oh that's right Deut. 8:3 "He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of Adonai." So, where does Adonai state this "distinction between spiritual and biological life" that I am going to have to start making. That sounds like a direct commandment to me, so it should be easy to find.
You can start in John 10:10-11. In English, context infers the difference. In Greek, the actual words show the difference.
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/6/2008 8:45:28 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 838
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manichunter
This is a mystery to me I am trying to discover. Study with me.
Here is the boggle:
How can a Christian receive grace without a law as to allow them to escape judgment from sin, and receive the mercy and grace of God at the end of their trusting God for His grace for the remission of sin which required judgment as defined by a law?
I am in law enforcement. I have a level of authority and discretion in my manner of how to handle criminal offenses as defined by civil and criminal laws. If I detain someone for an ounce of weed, I can take them into custody with their contraband or confiscate their contraband and let them go. My grace upon this person is dependant upon the laws I have to follow in the performance of my duties as proscribed by laws.
Yes you have that right to preform your task in hand as the governing body of people ask you to act like. Yet when it all comes down to what Jesus the Christ say in his teaching to behave like.
He was quoted to say this is the way which the pagans act according to their thinking. But this is not what you are to do. You are to have compassion towards the indiviual.
Let me give you a for instance. This one person in my life has said to me and through other individuals that I should have compassion on people who don't even say that they are sorry for what they have done to me. But when the tables were turned on them and when they could have shown compassion on a individual who said to that person I'm sorry for what I did. This who has preached this thing can't forgive Which tells me cry that you are going to heaven.Jesus in the book of Matthew after telling everyone the outline of a pray says If you don't forgive others then your Fatherwho is in heaven will not forgive you. Sounds to me that there more to life than what some would think.
But as I have put my trust in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. I find it is easery to be able to forgive others. Than I could before I did it.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/6/2008 10:17:24 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/9/2006
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Bluish threaded one,
I'm not trying to be difficult and frustrate your arguments, but you're asking me to agree with presuppositions that I simply cannot accept. Everybody who has been born has received the gift of natural life. But only those who are born-again have the gift of a never-ending life, and the additional abundance of spiritual life above and beyond that. They are not the same thing. John calls that life 'the light of men'. Paul calls it 'life that is truly life'.
I have much to say about this...many, many scirptures. I'm not sure I really want to invest the time necessary to make my point. Don't you think the fact that Jesus Himself is recorded as having made the distinction between mere physical life and spiritual life is evidence all by itself of that truth?
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/6/2008 10:44:48 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2055
Joined: 8/10/2005
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Spongie nailed it. i just add amen.
Person became a living soul when a breath of Life was given to him. Yes, God and only God sustains our life and nothing physical is alive until breath of life is in it.
Spirit of God is one thing, Breath of Life is another, it's not quite the same. To say all people have the same Spirit of God as the one we( all, OT and NT people) receive at New Birth will lead us to wrong conclusion that all are Born Again and consequently, saved.
Besides the clear danger of universalism argument here, this logic is also what John Hagee and the likes partially use to prove that unchristian Jews are also saved without Jesus.
to kvetch a bit – see, gang, why I say that Hebraisms are hard to deal with – Neshama for example. Nice derivative from nesheema,breath, sure. But it can mean anything from kaballah flavored judaistic definition to it’s view in Zohar to my brother addressing Ann Coulter   when he sees her on TV "Neshama sheli!"( what can i complain, imyself think gentile men are more handsome as well :)
it is also a conversational word to mean someone dear to your heart and lovely.
To be fair - i agree that is all debatable. But my q-n to BT : taking advantage of his kindness, for he asked to not be bugged from aside-what is the difference b/n saved and unsaved then if all have the Spirit? Saved got more of it, so to speak?
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/6/2008 11:36:38 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 838
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Spongie nailed it. i just add amen.
Person became a living soul when a breath of Life was given to him. Yes, God and only God sustains our life and nothing physical is alive until breath of life is in it.
Spirit of God is one thing, Breath of Life is another, it's not quite the same. To say all people have the same Spirit of God as the one we( all, OT and NT people) receive at New Birth will lead us to wrong conclusion that all are Born Again and consequently, saved.
Besides the clear danger of universalism argument here, this logic is also what John Hagee and the likes partially use to prove that unchristian Jews are also saved without Jesus.
to kvetch a bit – see, gang, why I say that Hebraisms are hard to deal with – Neshama for example. Nice derivative from nesheema,breath, sure. But it can mean anything from kaballah flavored judaistic definition to it’s view in Zohar to my brother addressing Ann Coulter when he sees her on TV "Neshama sheli!"( what can i complain, imyself think gentile men are more handsome as well :)
it is also a conversational word to mean someone dear to your heart and lovely.
To be fair - i agree that is all debatable. But my q-n to BT : taking advantage of his kindness, for he asked to not be bugged from aside-what is the difference b/n saved and unsaved then if all have the Spirit? Saved got more of it, so to speak?
So not to start a bad thing here. I am married to the most perfect wife in her manners. But Odeliya would you consider a person after Timothy in the Bible who was half Jew and Greek. My wife has and said we ain't to bad. 
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