|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 10:47:05 AM
|
|
|
SpongeBlog
Posts: 934
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
|
You're missing it. In general, those who rely on works of the law for salvation will also rely on the works of the law as the evidence of that salvation. Paul is addressing both in Galatians. Do you really think Peter separated himself away from the Gentiles in chapter 2 in order to be saved? No. He did that believing that's what he was to do as a believer. Paul goes on to teach us that we are both justified unto salvation and after salvation the same way--through faith. IOW, not only do you not get saved by works of the law, but you also do not demonstrate your faith through those same works of the law.
If you do not believe this, then tell us, in the following passage is Paul telling us that salvation is not secured by circumcision but rather is secured by becoming a new creation?
"15Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. 16Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God. (Galatians 6:15-16)
Of course not. What he's teaching the Galatians is not only does circumcision not save anybody, but that circumcision is also not the way to show yourself as being saved. Being a new creation is what proves or validates one's faith, not circumcision. Circumcision is a big nothing in regard to salvation and showing yourself to be saved.
The instruction of Galatians includes much more than just the matter of salvation alone. Many people don't understand this, but there is a fine line between what is required to be saved and what is required of a person after they are saved. You can't separate the two requirements as distinctly as the law keeping camp does. A person shows themselves to be saved the same way they were saved--through faith. And that faith is expressed in being a new creation, not keeping the OT laws of worship. It's dead wrong to relegate Galatians to a 'salvation only' discourse.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 11:14:24 AM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 2015
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
Amen Sponge...
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 3:51:00 PM
|
|
|
LBolt
Posts: 999
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
|
Nobody never implied that circumcision is necessary for salvation. The whole point of Galations is that we do not have to rely on the works (ma'asim) of the law (which is the Oral Law) for our salvation. To do so is SIN. Since it violates God's Torah. Also you can not rely on doing the Torah apart from Messiah and the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost for your salvation either. You can post 20+ paragraphs and have your "amen" corner chiming in and it will still not validate the fact that Paul was refuting the "traditions of men" which had infiltrated the believers in that area.
Guess what, Yahshua refuted those same traditions (see Mark 7) which made void the word of God (TaNaKH). He did not come to destroy the Law and the prophets... Guess what? It was the same Yahshua who admonished the religious leaders to search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life... People were getting saved by putting their faith in Yah in the OT and they are doing today through the Son of the living God. They obeyed His voice as a demonstration of their faith.
Faith is not mental ascent. Demons believe and have to pay homage. Faith is action! It can be seen. People are supposed to be able to see our good works and glorify our Abba...
< Message edited by LBolt -- 8/12/2008 3:59:51 PM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 4:15:46 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 1666
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Peter is not saying we have no other obligations. He is summarizing a dialogue on interpersonal relationships. So, of course he is quoting a Scripture that deals with our relationships with other people...
He is summarizing a dialouge from scripture on how to inherit God's blessing. Why would he leave OT worship as a means of blessing (if it was) out of an explanation to the church of how to be blessed? Would you?
I Pet 3:1 Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4 Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. 5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear. 7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers. 8 Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another . . .
This sounds like a dialogue on interpersonal relationships to me. Now the entire letter may be refering to the ways in which we can be blessed, but that is my point. The things you quoted do not constitute a complete list or a summary of all that Adonai blesses. Therefore, the passage you quoted does not tell us that the things you like to demonize with phrases like "outward worship" are not blesses by Adonai .
quote:
quote:
It would be easier to respond if you wouldn't insist on this endless sermonizing. First, you present sexual sin as the "one" sin against the body as if this is significant. But then rather than pointing out that significance, you move on to argue that inward motivation is more important than individual actions. Then you forbid me to talk about the individual actions and conclude that "proper outward worship" is meaningless. Then you add yet another term (ecstatic) to your lexicon of proper relationships. Then in defining that term you introduce a pet doctrine that you set in opposition to what you have called "proper outward worship", which I am not supposed to discuss. You then return to your term "character" which I gather is not related to anything one does. Finally, you conclude with a straw man characterization of right living as "rigid external worship requirements" which one does with no thought of Adonai whatsoever.
Wow, you are certainly good at convincing yourself that you are right. However, you have only convinced me that you appear to be incapable of carrying on a two way conversation. You know, where one person makes a short clear statement and the other person gives a short clear response and the two then come to some agreement before moving on to the next point? Believe me, both parties do eventually get to make all of their points using this method.
So we'll assume you have nothing to say in rebuttal to this then. Instead of tearing me down just stay silent when you have no rebuttal to something. If you are convinced that God speaks volumes through the silence of the NT in regard to OT worship laws, then perhaps you'll be speaking volumes by not responding to my posts.
Sorry, I did not respond to each point you appear to be making, but I don't know where to start or what point a you are specifically making. Believe be, I took some time trying to this disorganized portion of the post. When you told me you couldn't follow me, I slowed down and explained it one sentence at a time until we reached agreement. The exception is the nature of the spirit that is in man, which is what we are supposedly discussing now. If you will please, break it down and connect the dots, then I can respond.
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Bluethread:
Jn 10:10 "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. 11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."
I'm not clear how this verse draws a "distinction between spiritual and biological life".
The Greek words for 'life' in vs. 10, and 'life' in vs. 11 are two different words (Strong's #2222 & #5590 respectively). The good shepherd lays down his natural life (body and soul) so that the sheep might have full and ecstatic spiritual life above and beyond their biological and soulish life. 'Psuche' is the breathe of God in each of us. 'Zoe' life speaks of the abundance and quality of life that comes from the Holy Spirit which only those who are born-again have access to. It's not just 'pschue' life on steroids. It's a quality of life apart from physical life, but definatley does influence physical life and can make that better to.
It might have been easier had you said that, rather than presume I would interpret the verses that way. Since you insist on ignoring the Tanach, unless it is useful to you, I will for the time being go along with the greek terms for now. Now, I have told you what I thought Adonai was implying when He said, (Gen 1:27a) "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him . . ." and (Gen 2:7) "the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." Tell me how this fits into you belief system.
quote:
You'll find these passages interesting:
"10Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water." (John 4:10)
"4Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'" (Matt. 4:4)
In both cases 'living' and 'live' refer to the 'zoe' life that God gives, not the natural breathe of 'psuche' life God gives. Which is interesting considering that the context of both passages is about physical bread and water which we assosiate with natural 'psuche' life, not spiritual life.
He's using the illustration of natural bread and water which nourishes us to natural 'psuche' life to teach us about the bread and a water not of this world that nourishes us to eternal 'zoe' life.
That's all well and good, but you say I don't need illustrations. So, if that is the case, why should I even look at those verses. After all, reading in and of itself is just a useless physical action. If you are correct, I am sure The Spirit will tell me all I need to know without all of this ritualistic reading stuff.
Sometimes it's better to just say, "oh, I see."
Well, I don't see. Or I should say I don't believe my ears. In the last paragraph, I was taking what I heard you proposing to its logical conclusion. Is it really acceptable for a person to never read or hear the Scriptures and just do what he believes "the spirit" is telling him to do?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 8/13/2008 3:04:33 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 5:02:32 PM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Sponge:The Greek words for 'life' in vs. 10, and 'life' in vs. 11 are two different words (Strong's #2222 & #5590 respectively). The good shepherd lays down his natural life (body and soul) so that the sheep might have full and ecstatic spiritual life above and beyond their biological and soulish life. 'Psuche' is the breathe of God in each of us. 'Zoe' life speaks of the abundance and quality of life that comes from the Holy Spirit which only those who are born-again have access to. It's not just 'pschue' life on steroids. It's a quality of life apart from physical life, but definatley does influence physical life and can make that better to.
BlueT:
It might have been easier had you said that, rather than presume I would interpret the verses that way. Since you insist on ignoring the Tanach, unless it is useful to you, I will for the time being go along with the greek terms for now. Now, I have told you what I thought Adonai was implying when He said, (Gen 1:27a) "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him . . ." and (Gen 2:7) "the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." Tell me how this fits into you belief system.
Brother BlueT , all due respect but this was explained a few times by Sponge and once by me. I am not asking for reply if you are currently limiting yourself to debate with Sponge exclusively, but please, as we all do in a public forum let's all talk, or at least briefly read each other's posts.
I will requote what is said already and will highlight the relevant porition. I would appreciate the brief answer to the q-n in the end as well
Person became a living soul when a breath of Life was given to him. Yes, God and only God sustains our life and nothing physical is alive until breath of life is in it.
Spirit of God is one thing, Breath of Life is another, it's not quite the same. To say all people have the same Spirit of God as the one we( all, OT and NT people) receive at New Birth will lead us to wrong conclusion that all are Born Again and consequently, saved.
Besides the clear danger of universalism argument here, this logic is also what John Hagee and the likes partially use to prove that unchristian Jews are also saved without Jesus.This is precisely how i see Genesis verses that you mentioned.
.............................................
To be fair - i agree that is all debatable. But my q-n to BT : taking advantage of his kindness, for he asked to not be bugged from aside-what is the difference b/n saved and unsaved then if all have the Spirit? Saved got more of it, so to speak?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 5:13:41 PM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
Kashrut
God: And remember, Moses, in the laws of keeping Kosher, never cook a calf in its mother's milk. It is cruel.
Moses: So you are saying we should never eat milk and meat together.
God: No, what I'm saying is, never cook a calf in its mother's milk.
Moses: Oh Lord, forgive my ignorance! What you are really saying is we should wait six hours after eating meat to eat milk so the two are not in our stomachs.
God: No, Moses, listen to me. I am saying, don't cook a calf in its mother's milk!!!
Moses: Oh, Lord! Please don't strike me down for my stupidity! What you mean is we should have a separate set of dishes for milk and a separate set for meat and if we make a mistake we have to bury that dish outside....
God: Moses, do whatever you want..........
You are a character, Lap!! 
the above is sooo true! not to burden with much talk, but one story worth mentioning here- my brother is a chef, naturally the restaurant is kosher, so once on 1 April some cool pranksters played the joke by covering the signs of Ladies and Gents restrooms with Meat and Milk, very nicely printed out, in 2 languages, with pics.
It was great fun. Esp. for those who had no idea which room is what gender. No ass got offended at least none were reported. The restaurant owner, generally very religious,wanted to take it down, but then listen to the voice every highly religious Jew obeys : Voice of Money. it brough extra business, peeps were taking photos by it, etc. so now it's a early tradition. Actually it hangs out there for about a week.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 7:47:22 PM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 2015
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
quote:
Faith is not mental ascent. Demons believe and have to pay homage. Faith is action! It can be seen. People are supposed to be able to see our good works and glorify our Abba...
Hi LBolt...
I have to ask this question; when you say people are supposed to see our works, just what is it that they are suppose to see?
Is it not our compassion and love towards our fellow man and God? Is it not the action of the Royal Law that Christ has given?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 9:46:35 PM
|
|
|
LBolt
Posts: 999
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
|
Yes.
I don't want anyone to see my circumcision except my wife! LOL
People ought to see the Torah being lived out in everyday practical life.
The "Royal Law" is Torah...Loving God and your neighbor is the very heart of Torah. This is not a new commandment or teaching. It's been taught before Messiah came the first time... This reminds me of the verse in Deut. 4:7-8, with regards to men seeing our good works...
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/12/2008 10:03:17 PM
|
|
|
bob97
Posts: 2015
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
|
What was the purpose of the law?
I’m sure the question that I am going to ask will raise a few brows but I would like to present it to the table to get the views of others here.
In studying Galatians and Paul’s discussion of the law opposed to faith I am getting the impression that the reason that God in fact gave the law to Israel was to prevent their social and moral destruction and keep them in a holding pattern until the event of Christ and the introduction of faith as a means of general salvation.
Paul tells us;
Gal 3:19 Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave His law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is helpful if more than one party must reach an agreement. But God, who is one, did not use a mediator when He gave His promise to Abraham.
Gal 3:21 Is there a conflict, then, between God's law and God's promises? Absolutely not! If the law could give us new life, we could be made right with God by obeying it.
Gal 3:22 But the Scriptures declare that we are all prisoners of sin, so we receive God's promise of freedom only by believing in Jesus Christ.
Gal 3:23 Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed.
Gal 3:24 Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. (NLT)
Is not this in effect what Paul is saying; it was to place Israel under guard (protective custody) until faith was revealed. In other words, until the Holy Spirit was in position to change the hearts of mankind, quickening their hearts and drawing them to Christ. We know that the law saved no one but it did in effect give the nation a moral sense of responsibility and did make them aware of their sinful nature.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 12:08:07 AM
|
|
|
SpongeBlog
Posts: 934
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Nobody never implied that circumcision is necessary for salvation.
We know that. We all understand this is about what works we are to perform to show that we have the faith that saves. Literal Torah camp insists that the OT worship laws show that you have that faith. The rest of us say a changed character that shows itself in righteous deeds of godly love is what proves our faith. We believe that because that's what the NT says. The NT also says external things like circumcision count for nothing in proving that a person has saving faith. We're not making this up. This is the clear message of the NT.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
The whole point of Galations is that we do not have to rely on the works (ma'asim) of the law (which is the Oral Law) for our salvation.
Do you really think Paul is talking about rabbinacal oral law when he says this...
"3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law." (Galatians 5:3)
If we understand this passage according to what you believe then you're saying Paul believes that if you want to be justified by the rabbincal law of circumcision (not Moses's law of circumcision) then you must obey all of the rabbinical add on laws. Do you really think Paul believes that for even a second? Since you claim to understand what Paul is trying to teach the Galatians, is this something you would say to someone?
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
To do so is SIN. Since it violates God's Torah. Also you can not rely on doing the Torah apart from Messiah and the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost for your salvation either. You can post 20+ paragraphs and have your "amen" corner chiming in and it will still not validate the fact that Paul was refuting the "traditions of men" which had infiltrated the believers in that area.
Guess what, Yahshua refuted those same traditions (see Mark 7) which made void the word of God (TaNaKH).
So, do you agree with what you think Paul is saying, that if we want to be justified by rabbinical oral law that we must keep all of the rabbinical oral law?
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
He did not come to destroy the Law and the prophets...
In the same way that the lawful requirement for animal sacrifice finds it's legitimate fulfillment in the sacrifice of Jesus, so also the lawful requirement for circumcision has found it's legitimate fulfillment in circumcision of the heart by the Holy Spirit. No law has been abolished. These are two examples of Jesus coming to fulfill the law, not abolish it, the thing he said he did come to do.
How can you possibly argue with the truth of what I'm saying in regard to animal sacrifice. The letter of the law of animal sacrifice for sin finds it's legimate and acceptable fulfillment in a different non-letter of the law way. It's a clear and undebatable precedant for understanding how the law gets fulfilled in a new way, and not in the old way of the letter of the law. In regard to animal sacrifice for sin, we no longer serve according to the letter of the law but in the new way of the Spirit by believing. How can you argue with this?
"...we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." (Romans 7:6)
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Guess what? It was the same Yahshua who admonished the religious leaders to search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life... People were getting saved by putting their faith in Yah in the OT and they are doing today through the Son of the living God. They obeyed His voice as a demonstration of their faith.
This is the crux of what this is all about: What is the demonstration of saving faith that God requires of us? The message is loud and clear in the NT. Love as the result of a changed character is that proof--the evidence of saving faith, not the OT worship procedures. Do them if you want, but they simply count for nothing in changing a person or proving anything about that person. There's no reason to think they can't be the result of a genuine faith, but they simply are not the works that the Apostles teach us to pursue to 'make our calling and election sure'.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Faith is not mental ascent. Demons believe and have to pay homage. Faith is action! It can be seen. People are supposed to be able to see our good works and glorify our Abba...
To avoid the deceit of thinking you're saved when you really aren't, God has shown us how we can know we have saving faith, and not just the faith even the demons have. And a changed character that loves people actively is the way He says we know that we have 'passed from death to life'.
After all these months, why do you still not understand that to love someone Biblically means action, not lovey dovey feelings. All the qualities of the Holy Spirit find their manifestation in actual deeds, not just lofty, warm and fuzzy feelings. James plainly teaches us that saying 'be warm and well fed' (and meaning it) is not how you love someone. Actually feeding them and doing something is how you love someone. This has nothing to do with what day of the week you go to church on, or if you're circumcised, or if you rest on Saturday's. It has everything to do with actually caring enough about someone to not hurt them, and help them when needed. That is what proves you have saving faith.
A saved person with the Holy Spirit inside is recognized as belonging to Christ because the Spirit within them (that only saved people have) causes them to be faithful, kind, patient, etc. Do you not believe that these things are displayed in what you do, and not just in how you feel?
I'm amazed at how hard it is for you and others to understand that life in the Spirit is hardly just a 'feel good' experience. The Spirit-filled life is a life of actual works. Works that Paul says actually count for something and accomplish much, while works like circumcision count for nothing. How much clearer can Paul make it for us? Which do you want to pursue, works that count for nothing, or works that count for something?
"6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6)
The NT hardly talks about the works that count for nothing, except to say that they count for nothing, while it goes into lengthy explanations and exhortations about the works that do count for something.
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Let it sink in.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 8/13/2008 12:38:05 AM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 12:34:07 AM
|
|
|
SpongeBlog
Posts: 934
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
|
Bluethread,
I've spent way too much time in the threads today. I'll go back and revisit any topic you want. Just pick one thing and we'll address it again.
And as far as the breath of God, Odeliya has it pegged for where I'm at with the whole matter. There's a big difference in existing by the Spirit of God and actually walking in a close intimate personal relationship with the Spirit of God.
I'll stick to my analogy of the absent father who only gave life to a child, compared to the father that not only brought the child into the world but who has also made himself known and available to that child in an intimate relationship. Big, big difference between the two. A difference the Greek language (approved of by God) seeks to express. I don't agree at all that providing for mere existence is the greater of the two lives.
You know where you were going with this in regard to literal law observance, so if you want to pick it up from there, I'm fine with it.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 4:18:26 AM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 1666
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Brother BlueT , all due respect but this was explained a few times by Sponge and once by me. I am not asking for reply if you are currently limiting yourself to debate with Sponge exclusively, but please, as we all do in a public forum let's all talk, or at least briefly read each other's posts.
I will requote what is said already and will highlight the relevant porition. I would appreciate the brief answer to the q-n in the end as well
Person became a living soul when a breath of Life was given to him. Yes, God and only God sustains our life and nothing physical is alive until breath of life is in it.
Spirit of God is one thing, Breath of Life is another, it's not quite the same. To say all people have the same Spirit of God as the one we( all, OT and NT people) receive at New Birth will lead us to wrong conclusion that all are Born Again and consequently, saved.
Besides the clear danger of universalism argument here, this logic is also what John Hagee and the likes partially use to prove that unchristian Jews are also saved without Jesus.This is precisely how i see Genesis verses that you mentioned.
I am not saying man is saved, that is pardoned from the penalties imposed at the eturnal judgement, because the breath of life is in him. What I am saying is that the spirit of man is different than that of the animals in that it is a reflection of the Spirit of Adonai. To the extent that it is a proper reflection of Adonai, one is alive. To the extent that it is an improper reflection of Adonai, one is dead. Also, since an improper reflection is an abomination, it deserves anialation. Thus Adonai is being gracious to all mankind for the sake of that portion that is still reflecting His character.
In a way one could say the sacrifice of Yeshua saves everyone, but only temporarily. Of course this is not true salvation, but defered judgement. However, even defered judgement requires Adonai's grace. As Peter says, (2 Pet 3:9) "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." We see in the verses that preceed this one, the promise is the coming of Yeshua(Jesus) and the "destruction of ungodly men". So, we see Ruach Ha Adonai(The Spirit of Adonai) is even on the ungodly, preserving them for the day of judgement.
That is why I say, a man can not be alive unless he has a measure of Adonai's Spirit working in him. When we do not live as Adonai wishes, we greave His Spirit and we receive the curses associated with that. Also, as we do as he wishes He blesses us. The difference between the saved and the unsaved is that we who are saved can "lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and . . . run with patience the race that is set before us . . .". Those who are not saved, if they wish to live, are weighed down by the knowledge that they are indeed dying and can not please Adonai no matter how hard they try.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 4:33:40 AM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 1666
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
Bluethread,
I've spent way too much time in the threads today. I'll go back and revisit any topic you want. Just pick one thing and we'll address it again.
And as far as the breath of God, Odeliya has it pegged for where I'm at with the whole matter. There's a big difference in existing by the Spirit of God and actually walking in a close intimate personal relationship with the Spirit of God.
I'll stick to my analogy of the absent father who only gave life to a child, compared to the father that not only brought the child into the world but who has also made himself known and available to that child in an intimate relationship. Big, big difference between the two. A difference the Greek language (approved of by God) seeks to express. I don't agree at all that providing for mere existence is the greater of the two lives.
You know where you were going with this in regard to literal law observance, so if you want to pick it up from there, I'm fine with it.
That is fine. Apart from what we have already agreed upon, let's wipe the slate clean for now and take a side road that is not so bumpy. However, before we proceed, I will need an answer to my last question. Is it really acceptable for a person to never read or hear the Scriptures and just do what he believes "the spirit" is telling him to do?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 8:23:19 AM
|
|
|
SpongeBlog
Posts: 934
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Is it really acceptable for a person to never read or hear the Scriptures and just do what he believes "the spirit" is telling him to do?
No, it is not acceptable to never read or hear the scriptures if God has given you the ability and the opportunity to do so. God works with you according to the circumstances you are in.
God has provided the scriptures to help us discern the voice of the Spirit.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 9:05:15 AM
|
|
|
Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
You're missing it. In general, those who rely on works of the law for salvation will also rely on the works of the law as the evidence of that salvation. Paul is addressing both in Galatians. Do you really think Peter separated himself away from the Gentiles in chapter 2 in order to be saved? No. He did that believing that's what he was to do as a believer. Paul goes on to teach us that we are both justified unto salvation and after salvation the same way--through faith. IOW, not only do you not get saved by works of the law, but you also do not demonstrate your faith through those same works of the law.
If you do not believe this, then tell us, in the following passage is Paul telling us that salvation is not secured by circumcision but rather is secured by becoming a new creation?
"15Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. 16Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God. (Galatians 6:15-16)
Of course not. What he's teaching the Galatians is not only does circumcision not save anybody, but that circumcision is also not the way to show yourself as being saved. Being a new creation is what proves or validates one's faith, not circumcision. Circumcision is a big nothing in regard to salvation and showing yourself to be saved.
The instruction of Galatians includes much more than just the matter of salvation alone. Many people don't understand this, but there is a fine line between what is required to be saved and what is required of a person after they are saved. You can't separate the two requirements as distinctly as the law keeping camp does. A person shows themselves to be saved the same way they were saved--through faith. And that faith is expressed in being a new creation, not keeping the OT laws of worship. It's dead wrong to relegate Galatians to a 'salvation only' discourse.
Good post. The fulfillment of the law is love because as Paul says, "love does no harm to its neighbor." And the only true love is Christ's love which is why Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. One can't clean the cup from the outside. So only when Jesus has cleaned the inside of our cups by His love, will our outsides become clean as well. "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." 
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 2:10:52 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 1666
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Is it really acceptable for a person to never read or hear the Scriptures and just do what he believes "the spirit" is telling him to do?
No, it is not acceptable to never read or hear the scriptures if God has given you the ability and the opportunity to do so. God works with you according to the circumstances you are in.
God has provided the scriptures to help us discern the voice of the Spirit.
Good, specifically, how is it that one uses the written scriptures to "discern the voice of the Spirit"?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 2:54:58 PM
|
|
|
Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
|
quote:
Likewise the Apostle Paul was an observant Jew. He was born in Tarsus but was brought up in Jerusalem and studied under the famous Rabbi Gamaliel (Acts 22:3). Did this Jewish Rabbi reject a Jewish lifestyle after his conversion on the Damascus Road? By no means, as the following events during his ministry clearly indicate:
* Paul identified himself a Jew, even to his dying day. In Acts 23:6 he confessed, “I am (not “was”) a Pharisee.” He even declared that concerning the observance of the Torah he was “blameless,” which indicates that he observed a Jewish lifestyle to the very end (Phil. 3:6). Paul testified that he kept the Torah throughout his life (Acts 25:7-8, see also Acts 28:17).
* Paul circumcised Timothy, the son of a Jewish mother and Greek father. He considered Timothy to be Jewish and wanted him to be circumcised before taking him on a trip to assist with the ministry among the Jews (Acts 16:1-3).
* Paul regularly attended synagogue. “He came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews. And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures” (Acts 17:1-2).
* Paul went to Jerusalem for the "feast" (most likely Passover) at the end of his second journey (Acts 18:21-22; see also 1 Cor. 5:7).
* Paul took the Nazarite vow (Acts 18:18; see also Num. 6:2-6,13-18).
* Paul sailed away from Philippi "after the days of Unleavened Bread" (Acts 20:6), indicating that he observed Passover and the days of unleavened bread (chag hamatzot) with the Church at Philippi (1 Cor. 5:7).
* After leaving Philipi he sailed along the coast of Asia Minor, stopping at a few places along the way, but skipped Ephesus because he wanted to be in Jerusalem for the Feast of Pentecost (Acts 20:16). This was at the end of his third missionary journey.
* Paul lived “in observance of the Torah” (Acts 21:23-24) and offered sacrifices in the Jewish Temple (Acts 21:26). Notice that Paul was not only going to pay for his own sacrifices in order to be released from his Nazarite vow, he was also going to pay for the sacrifices for four other Jewish believers! Notice also that this was performed at the explicit request of James, the head of the Jerusalem Church (and half-brother of Yeshua).
* Paul’s disagreement with Peter (Gal. 2:11-14) was about the requirement of the Gentiles to convert to Judaism, not about the lifestyle of the Jewish believers.
* Paul observed that the prison ship (on which he was sailing to Rome) was going too slowly and "the fast was now already past" (Acts 27:9). The “fast” was universally regarded to refer to Yom Kippur.
Article
A point of interest is a picture of the Israel Supreme Court Building
at the end of the article.
< Message edited by Lapidoth -- 8/13/2008 3:15:06 PM >
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 3:33:45 PM
|
|
|
Lapidoth
Posts: 3467
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
|
quote:
Jesus and Oral Torah
What about Yeshua (Jesus)? Did He support the idea of oral Torah? Well, yes and no.
Link
quote:
Paul and Oral Torah
The Apostle Paul likewise had a mixed view of the role of the authority of the oral Law.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 6:03:14 PM
|
|
|
LBolt
Posts: 999
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
In studying Galatians and Paul’s discussion of the law opposed to faith I am getting the impression that the reason that God in fact gave the law to Israel was to prevent their social and moral destruction and keep them in a holding pattern until the event of Christ and the introduction of faith as a means of general salvation.
The big problem with this statement is that Avraham was justified by faith when he trusted God. It was evident that he trusted God by his corresponding actions. All of Hebrews 11 would be invalid. James would be in error for writing "you show your faith without your works and I'll show you my faith by my works." Faith is taking God at His word. Trusting Him!! Nobody in this thread has thus far argue against the character of love. Yes if you follow Elohim then this ought to be revealed in one's life. That is Torah 101.
quote:
It has everything to do with actually caring enough about someone to not hurt them, and help them when needed. That is what proves you have saving faith.
My friend, this is true, but I've experienced more help from non-believers than born again Christians!! This does not prove that you are saved. It proved that you are a good and compassionate person! Those that accept Yahshua as their LORD and Savior are the one's that are saved! Yes, this did illustrate our love for others manisfested out of God's love. Remember, James 2:14-17 is talking about having faith and walking in Torah. Verse 14-15 is there to illustrate the fact that faith apart from obeying Torah (the 10 commandments) is dead.
Life in the Spirit is a life that is lovingly obedient God's words. Romans 8:2-8, where is says "Law of God"...it's talking about the Word of God or the Torah. In fact Elohim wrote the 10 commandments with His very own finger! No man can circumvent the Word of God! Peter warned that Paul wrote things that are hard to understand and that unlearned and unstable men would twist his words to their own detriment. This is so, so true because we study his writings without a Hebraic perspective and misconstrue much of what he wrote. Not properly discerning the context and teaching that Paul invalidated the Torah through saying iy is "fulfilled in Christ."
Sponge, the problem is not with me understanding what you are trying to say all these months...the problem is with believers who have a Greco-Roman mindset trying to teach God's word and missing the gist of what is written. I'm saying this way in order to lessen the impact of my words and not offend anyone. Although I probably already have done that. Bluethread, for months has tried to step by step, point by point, walk you through this... You have the "heart" of the Torah, which are the 2 great commandments but you don't see that those 2 will lead you into the others...more precisely the one's that apply to us in the here and now.
quote:
So, do you agree with what you think Paul is saying, that if we want to be justified by rabbinical oral law that we must keep all of the rabbinical oral law?
In context of this scripture, circumcised as a manmade precondition for salvation, as opposed to an act of obedience after salvation like Avraham (who was spiritually mature before he was circumcised.
As far as justification is concerned we are justified when we accept Yahshua as Lord and Savior, not when we get circumcised. Torah alone can not forgive or save you only the sinless blood of the Lamb can do this. When we are ready for circumcision, you are pledging as an outward seal your compliance to God's instruction. It's a serious undertaking. A new convert would be overwhelmed which is why, I believe, that Acts 15 gives the "minimums" and as the attend synagogue on Shabbat they would continue to learn more.
Most of us are already circumcised so this should not be a big concern. I don't believe it's an essential until one is ready. If you (like me) are already circumcised...why stress it?
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 6:09:04 PM
|
|
|
LBolt
Posts: 999
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
A point of interest is a picture of the Israel Supreme Court Building
at the end of the article.
Interesting indeed!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
|
|
| | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 