RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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Mattumanu -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2005 6:50:34 PM)

I find it ironic that people are discussing (and worried) about the "law" governing the thread about the law.

First of all, what do people think of what Paul said about the law being "added so that the trespass of sin might increase"? It's the linchpin of his argument that following the law for justification only leads to death.



P31W -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2005 7:02:29 PM)

quote:

Christian is DEAD to the Mosaic Law. He is under absolutely zero obligation to obey it. But that doesn't mean we can just do whatever we want.


We are under 0 obligation to the law yet we can't do whatever we want? ROFL explain that one?

Does the Holy Spirit lead us back to the law of God because we know that this is a reflection of God's Holy and Perfect Character??



P31W -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2005 7:11:30 PM)

quote:

following the law for justification only leads to death.


I have not considered that folks believe in following the law for justification. Are some on this thread of that belief?

I am looking and speaking as a person who is saved by the "grace of God" through faith.



Mattumanu -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2005 7:30:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

quote:

following the law for justification only leads to death.


I have not considered that folks believe in following the law for justification. Are some on this thread of that belief?

I am looking and speaking as a person who is saved by the "grace of God" through faith.


No, in fact as I see it, the bible shows us that it's man's tendency towards law that get's him in trouble. By itself, there's nothing wrong with keeping laws, but as Paul said, he wouldn't have known what coveting was had there not been the law to show him. I was told once about a young man who said "I wouldn't have know what to do in the back seat of a car with a girl if my youth pastor hadn't told everything I WASN'T supposed do".

So on the one hand, nobody believes they are justified by obedience to the law, but people keep laws for all sorts of strange reasons.

To those who keep the law, why exactly do you keep it?



Mattumanu -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2005 7:40:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

quote:

Christian is DEAD to the Mosaic Law. He is under absolutely zero obligation to obey it. But that doesn't mean we can just do whatever we want.


We are under 0 obligation to the law yet we can't do whatever we want? ROFL explain that one?

Does the Holy Spirit lead us back to the law of God because we know that this is a reflection of God's Holy and Perfect Character??


Yes. In fact, the historic protestant teaching on this follows GUILT, GRACE, and GRATITUDE. The idea that Paul talks about is, under condemnation of the law, no one can do it as the law commands it be done... Or like Jesus said, "be therefore perfect, as your father in heaven is perfect". But by grace through faith, the condemnation of the law is removed and we can now do the law.

But today, even though people SAY they are justified by grace through faith... you find the thrust being like "the purpose driven life" with 168 principles of Christian living. More laws for us to fail to keep properly.

Lately I've been calling Rick Warren's book, "the purpose driven death".



SugarReinz -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2005 7:50:17 PM)

God said something contrary to what you said. He said that we can keep the Law.

11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it. --Deut 30



GPickypick -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2005 8:01:44 PM)

Hmm...and yet no one does. Check out Romans 3:9-20. And besides, that's not the issue we're discussing. We're not talking about the feasibility of keeping the law. We're talking about whether we're commanded to. And as Christians who believe the Bible, the answer is "no."

We fix our eyes on Jesus and by following him, we incidentally follow the moral principles of the law. What did Paul say in 1 Timothy 1:5? "But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith." Love comes from a pure heart, a good conscience, and sincere faith; not from lawkeeping. He explains in verses 6-10 that lawkeeping doesn't help a righteous person. The law only helps those who break it by showing them their need for forgiveness.



rockv12 -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2005 8:03:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mattumanu

To those who keep the law, why exactly do you keep it?


I (try) to keep it because I love God. I know it hurts God if we disobey Him. I DO NOT do it out of trying to justify myself by works before God, but out of love. It's pretty simple.



Mattumanu -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2005 8:25:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rockv12

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mattumanu

To those who keep the law, why exactly do you keep it?


I (try) to keep it because I love God. I know it hurts God if we disobey Him. I DO NOT do it out of trying to justify myself by works before God, but out of love. It's pretty simple.


That's a good response, in fact it's exactly what Paul said about it in Romans 12:1... "therefore, beloved, in view of his mercies, present your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and acceptable." That's the distinction the reformers hammered on against thier roman catholic opponents who said the reformers believe in justification by works, just different works.



Mattumanu -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2005 8:32:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarReinz

God said something contrary to what you said. He said that we can keep the Law.

11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it. --Deut 30


The reformers would say, "scripture interprets scripture". In deuteronomy 31, AFTER God makes that statement, he predicts that Israel will break the covenant.

Dt 31:15 Then the LORD appeared at the Tent in a pillar of cloud, and the cloud stood over the entrance to the Tent.
Dt 31:16 And the LORD said to Moses: “You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them.
Dt 31:17 On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, ‘Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?’
Dt 31:18 And I will certainly hide my face on that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.

So the distinction is that, as Adam before the fall, the law isn't too difficult. But fallen man, like national Israel, broke the law... even to the point of offering child sacrifices to Yahweh in the manner of sacrifices to Molech.



P31W -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2005 9:17:40 PM)

quote:

But by grace through faith, the condemnation of the law is removed and we can now do the law.


Matt I agree with this completely!!!! David loved the laws of God. I love them myself!!! I see such wisdom so very deep that human minds can't comprehend just how "perfect" they are.

quote:

we're discussing. We're not talking about the feasibility of keeping the law. We're talking about whether we're commanded to. And as Christians who believe the Bible, the answer is "no."


Gpicky, Does God tell us to "test" the spirit? How are we to test that spirit? If I feel that it's OK to commit adultry (you know God wants me happy and I am not happy with my spouse) what am I to do? Then what am I to obey the law or the spirit I hear?



EZ_03 -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2005 9:56:42 PM)

quote:

I find it ironic that people are discussing (and worried) about the "law" governing the thread about the law.

i was chuckling about that myself earlier...[:D]

but then i saw the light and had a truly freeing revelation...

i decided, "hey, this sounds like legalism...all these rules about how to live life here on the CW boards. i've been set free from this law stuff and i can do anything i want on this site...sure the rules are great, but as long as i understand why the adminstrator put them there, then i'm above all of them...

of course, before i realize their intent, then i'm condemned by these rules, but now that i've been liberated, [:'(] they're for someone else and not me!!! this is great! the adminstrator treats me totally different and has an entirely different set of expectations for me compared to everyone else. i am no longer under the law. as long as i get the spirit of the adminstrator, then i'm pretty sure it may even be WRONG for me to obey these rules...

now, those of you who think i'm still supposed to obey these rules are NOT ALLOWED to imply that to me in any fashion whatsoever. i, however, am at liberty to say anything i want to you and criticize you in any fashion.

there, i think i've got everything figured out now...



EZ_03 -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2005 10:04:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

quote:

following the law for justification only leads to death.


I have not considered that folks believe in following the law for justification. Are some on this thread of that belief?

nope, not a one...

(despite continually being told by some we are...oh well...)



P31W -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2005 10:11:26 PM)

EZ,

What do you do that would lead people to believe that?



EZ_03 -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2005 10:21:05 PM)

quote:

Yes. In fact, the historic protestant teaching on this follows GUILT, GRACE, and GRATITUDE. The idea that Paul talks about is, under condemnation of the law, no one can do it as the law commands it be done... Or like Jesus said, "be therefore perfect, as your father in heaven is perfect". But by grace through faith, the condemnation of the law is removed and we can now do the law.

But today, even though people SAY they are justified by grace through faith... you find the thrust being like "the purpose driven life" with 168 principles of Christian living. More laws for us to fail to keep properly.

Lately I've been calling Rick Warren's book, "the purpose driven death".

nice posts, matt. agree with much you said.

maybe i didn't follow you right, but i don't think the verses from chapter 31 of Deuteronomy (God knowing that israel would actually not keep all the Law) should discourage anyone from trying as He encouraged in chapter 30...that thinking eventually just keeps one in bed all day, right? i think SR was just pointing out that concept of God saying His commandments, in fact, were not set up merely as some inpenetrable barrier to pleasing Him...He actually intended people to give it a go with the right heart. this is contrary to much of what the church teaches today - that the Law was given ONLY to show us how helpless we were...not to actually obey. this is completely contrary to the language of the Torah. i personally think God is big enough to make a "multi-tasking Law." yes, it serves to condemn, and yes, it is a tutor, and yes, it is His definition of holy living, and so forth.

love the rick warren comparison...people will bad-mouth God's commands from the Torah from the pulpit, no less, then submit themselves to some laws from the best-seller list...



EZ_03 -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2005 10:40:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

EZ,

What do you do that would lead people to believe that?

it's what i say on forums that ruffles feathers (nobody here actually knows what i do - folks that do, don't believe any such thing...a lost in translation sort of thing), namely that i think Torah is for all believers...

not in any way, shape or form a way to be justified, redeemed or whatever...just a pattern of living for those already set free...laid out by Someone i happen trust a great deal...and a way that He promised would lead people to Him.

as i continue to unlearn what i grew up with in the church for 30 years regarding the "Law" (Torah = instruction/teaching) and as i come to appreciate His Torah in a fraction of the way the Psalmist of 119 did...i will most assuredly not be going back...this is great stuff![:)]



Mattumanu -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2005 10:58:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EZ_03


maybe i didn't follow you right, but i don't think the verses from chapter 31 of Deuteronomy (God knowing that israel would actually not keep all the Law) should discourage anyone from trying as He encouraged in chapter 30...that thinking eventually just keeps one in bed all day, right? i think SR was just pointing out that concept of God saying His commandments, in fact, were not set up merely as some inpenetrable barrier to pleasing Him...


You're right. They SHOULDN'T discourage anyone from trying. The problem comes when people don't keep the law and the gospel distinct from one another. The law, as it was originally published, is pretty harsh, as Paul points out. "Cursed is anyone who does not continue in the law and perform them". The gospel, of course, it the exact opposite of this. "Come to me, all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for my burden is light". This statement, by Jesus, is in stark contrast to his statement on the sermon on the mount: "be therefore perfect as your father in heaven is perfect".

quote:

He actually intended people to give it a go with the right heart.


That's what he wanted from the very start, in the garden. All throughout scripture we Hear God saying, "do this and you shall live", and allowing us to demonstrate just how badly we perform under those kinds of commands. Adam was born without sin perfectly capable of fulfilling all righteousness. This covenenant of works was first published in the garden, then republished again, revealed more and more as time goes by... until the true law, the true word becomes flesh and tabernacled among us. Jesus, the eternal logos, or speach act of God, is where the gospel comes in and turns "do this and you shall live" into "believe this, it has been done".

quote:

this is contrary to much of what the church teaches today - that the Law was given ONLY to show us how helpless we were...not to actually obey. this is completely contrary to the language of the Torah. i personally think God is big enough to make a "multi-tasking Law." yes, it serves to condemn, and yes, it is a tutor, and yes, it is His definition of holy living, and so forth.


If this is what you believe, then you aren't all that far from reformed thought.

The law serves many purposes. Besides being a revelation of God, It does serve to condemn AND to as a pedigygos to drive us to Christ. A Pedigygos, in greek culture, was a person hired by a father to follow his son around and wack him with a stick if he should do something he shouldn't be doing. Too often, the word is translated "tutor", which brings to mind like Rod Rosenbladt likes to say, a cute highschool girl who's helping you with your algebra. No, a pedigygos' job was to wack that kid every time he did something wrong.

Now, if you were to go the whole way, you'd adopt covenantalism as a hermanuetic if leu of dispensationalism, because dispensationalists often times interpret law as being "done away with" and "not applying" to Christians. The covenant of works IS still in effect. The principal evidence of this is that, the curse of death that came with breaking that first covenant in the garden is still in effect. In spite of Christ's work, we are still dying. So if the law is "done away with" by Christ's work, why does death still reign?

quote:

love the rick warren comparison...people will bad-mouth God's commands from the Torah from the pulpit, no less, then submit themselves to some laws from the best-seller list...


One of the principals of greek and pagan thought is, if you follow these "x" number of steps, you can come out alright. Every culture has it's superstitions regarding everything from rabbits feet to cutting rituals to clapping hands a certain way... and every religion (including, unfortunately, Christianity) has it's share of this blight. But when Jesus came on the scene, he said the "law", is really "love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and strength... and love your neighbor as yourself". If THAT is what the law REALLY says, then it's easy to see how people can get a distorted view of law, and mix the law up with the gospel into what's sometimes referred to in reformed circles as "golawspel".



Mattumanu -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2005 11:09:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EZ_03

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

EZ,

What do you do that would lead people to believe that?

it's what i say on forums that ruffles feathers (nobody here actually knows what i do - folks that do, don't believe any such thing...a lost in translation sort of thing), namely that i think Torah is for all believers...

not in any way, shape or form a way to be justified, redeemed or whatever...just a pattern of living for those already set free...laid out by Someone i happen trust a great deal...and a way that He promised would lead people to Him.

as i continue to unlearn what i grew up with in the church for 30 years regarding the "Law" (Torah = instruction/teaching) and as i come to appreciate His Torah in a fraction of the way the Psalmist of 119 did...i will most assuredly not be going back...this is great stuff![:)]


I'm glad you think it's great stuff, but let point something out to you that will turn you even farther from that old way. Jesus didn't say "my WAY is the way, the truth, and the life" he said "I AM the way, the truth, and the life". He said "narrow is path that leads to life, and wide is the path to destruction" then goes on to say "I AM the gate". I hang my head many times when people say that Jesus wasn't being literal when he says "I am the door"... but the truth is, he WAS being literal. Being justified by Grace alone, through faith alone, because of Christ's person and work alone is very difficult to grasp for an optimistic culture that believes "if they aren't out of the ballpark" they can be saved. That kind of thinking, optimistic thinking, leads to us sounding like Stuart Smalley: "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and dogone it, people like me".

Does God like people like Stuart Smalley?



EZ_03 -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/19/2005 11:45:39 PM)

very enjoyable posts, again.

quote:

"Come to me, all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for my burden is light". This statement, by Jesus, is in stark contrast to his statement on the sermon on the mount: "be therefore perfect as your father in heaven is perfect".

curious as to your explanation for the above contrasts...

quote:

If this is what you believe, then you aren't all that far from reformed thought.

it is, and the more i study some reform thinkers, i'm surprised that this is indeed true...where are these churches, though, because that is not what is out there. i'm still of the bent they didn't "reform" enough, though and need to keep going back, pre-Nicea and beyond...

quote:

a pedigygos' job was to wack that kid every time he did something wrong.

yep, don't hear that much, either...

quote:

Now, if you were to go the whole way, you'd adopt covenantalism as a hermanuetic if leu of dispensationalism, because dispensationalists often times interpret law as being "done away with" and "not applying" to Christians.

trust me, i'm not a dispensationalist. i'm not sure i want to be labeled a covenantalist just yet either...as these are all labels that popped into folks' consciousnesses long after the faith the apostles practiced...that's closer to where i'm aiming. i do follow a covenant-making and covenant-keeping God...label it what one will[:)]

quote:

Being justified by Grace alone, through faith alone, because of Christ's person and work alone is very difficult to grasp for an optimistic culture that believes "if they aren't out of the ballpark" they can be saved. That kind of thinking, optimistic thinking, leads to us sounding like Stuart Smalley: "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and dogone it, people like me".

agreed, this is somewhat a frightening thought that things may be a bit narrower than is often taught...

quote:

Does God like people like Stuart Smalley?

i'm sure He does...i struggle though...[:D]

i know it's another thread, but the few times i've watched joel osteen, i keep waiting for him to open with "i am what it says i am, i have what it says i have...and doggone it people like me...

thanks for the exchanges,
kevin



EZ_03 -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/20/2005 12:17:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GPickypick

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

Gpicky,

Isn't sin "lawlesness"? Are there "two extremes" when we look at the law?

That's right, sin is lawlessness. I'm not promoting antinomianism. What I am saying is that the Christian is DEAD to the Mosaic Law.

and many of us interpret this in the greater context of Romans to mean we are "DEAD" to the CURSE of the Law...we are "DEAD" to SIN...curious as to how one can "confirm and establish and uphold the Law" (Romans 3:31, amplified) if one is entirely "DEAD" to it?

quote:

He is under absolutely zero obligation to obey it. But that doesn't mean we can just do whatever we want. Paul addresses that in Romans 6.

i love Romans 6...cool parallel to the Exodus..."set free, in order to serve (hebrew, avodah, often translated "worship")." i'm wondering how as a "slave to righteousness" one would explain to your new master that you have no obligation to His rules? "sorry, Master, i'm just not feeling led to do that today...maybe you can find someone else? i know it's the job you said would bring more people to you (Deuteronomy 4), but it seems a bit legalistic to me...'Master.'"<wink, wink>

quote:

I really think a good study of Romans 6-7 and Galatians would clear this matter up without all the fuss.

gee, my bible doesn't even have those books...what are their names again?[sm=eek.gif]

even better, study them (actually, the whole book of Romans) in light of Torah, and be as the "noble Bereans" of Acts 17...who compared everything paul taught with "the Scriptures" (Tanakh) to make sure it was true. when you do that, you know that if something appears to contradict Torah, paul is wrong or you are misinterpreting it (odds are against you, sorry).

later,
kevin



P31W -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/20/2005 8:15:07 AM)

13 Evil people and imposters will become worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed, knowing those from whom you learned, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred Scriptures, which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work

How do you guys/gals see this passage in light of the discussion? The part of vs 17 in bold letters gives me the impression that the Man of God (an woman/child) would use "all of scripture" to decide what is right, wrong, how to get right and stay right.

I don't see any idea that we are "dead" the the law once we become saved. Rather the opposite?

Ideas?



a-lily -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/20/2005 10:51:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

13 Evil people and imposters will become worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed, knowing those from whom you learned, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred Scriptures, which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work

How do you guys/gals see this passage in light of the discussion? The part of vs 17 in bold letters gives me the impression that the Man of God (an woman/child) would use "all of scripture" to decide what is right, wrong, how to get right and stay right.

I don't see any idea that we are "dead" the the law once we become saved. Rather the opposite?

Ideas?


I agree, I would also add…Where was the NT when that was written? It wasn’t… it was still just letters. Would Paul call his letters to the church “sacred Scriptures”? Seems to me that Paul was exhorting Timothy to use the Tanakh/OT, “for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work”



rockv12 -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/20/2005 5:34:46 PM)

Who in here thinks that it is outrageous that they are taking the Ten Commandments out of courthouses and public buildings? Christians right? But who cares if we aren't supposed to even follow them anymore.



Ezra -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/20/2005 10:37:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rockv12
Who in here thinks that it is outrageous that they are taking the Ten Commandments out of courthouses and public buildings? Christians right? But who cares if we aren't supposed to even follow them anymore.


The Ten Commandments continue to fulfill an extremely important function even after the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. They are there to confront every sinner with God's standard of morality and spirituality, and convict the sinner so that he or she finally admits: "I am guilty before God".

Once you acknowledge your guilt, you realize that the punishment and penalty will be unfailingly executed, unless you find an alternative (more precisely, unless God presents an alternative). That alternative is the Good News -- the Gospel.

So the Law provides each sinner with the "Bad News" while the Gospel provides him with the Glad Tidings or Good News -- that Christ died for his sins and rose again for his justification, and if he believes, repents, and receives Christ, not only will he be saved from Hell, but will receive the gift of eternal life!

The reason that God has brought in the New Covenant with its own Law -- the Law of Christ or the Law of the Spirit of Life -- is because the Law that is written on the hearts of believers can only be obeyed through the power of the Holy Spirit. Therefore it is no longer "the works of the Law" but "the fruits of the Spirit". The Law of Christ is encapsulated in one word -- "love" [agape]. If you are wholeheartedly loving God and others with agape love, you are indeed fulfilling the Law. Moses would be extremely pleased.



P31W -> RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread (7/21/2005 7:53:40 AM)

quote:

the Law that is written on the hearts of believers can only be obeyed through the power of the Holy Spirit.


Explain? Once we are saved we no longer need to read the bible? We just "know" what to do?

quote:

The Law of Christ is encapsulated in one word -- "love" [agape]. If you are wholeheartedly loving God and others with agape love, you are indeed fulfilling the Law. Moses would be extremely pleased.


What does "love" mean to you and what do you believe it means to most people in this country today? (lot's of "love" churches out there)



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