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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2005 10:13:51 AM
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ces
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FYI, for those who wish to keep the law remember this, the law can only demand two things; 1. Perfect obedience, or 2. Death
You cannot pick and choose which laws to keep, you either keep them all or the penalty is death. There's no way around that!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2005 10:18:45 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ces
FYI, for those who wish to keep the law remember this, the law can only demand two things; 1. Perfect obedience, or 2. Death
You cannot pick and choose which laws to keep, you either keep them all or the penalty is death. There's no way around that! Ah. Corollary: one may choose to bear false witness, murder, take the Name in vain, for a few examples, because this will bring them life.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
Looking,waddling, and quacking are not the essence of duckness.
G-d has only one natural-born Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2005 11:49:55 AM
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bobservations
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quote:
Ah. Corollary: one may choose to bear false witness, murder, take the Name in vain, for a few examples, because this will bring them life.
How can one do these things and love the LORD? How could one do these things and love your fellow man? The only thing Jesus asks of us is to love God with all our hearts and our fellow man as ourselves. He does ask us to publicly proclaim Him through the Lord's Supper and Baptism. Marriage is also a sacred public proclamation. All other OT laws are not required for Christians.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2005 12:58:54 PM
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rockv12
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bobservations
The only thing Jesus asks of us is to love God with all our hearts and our fellow man as ourselves.
quote:
Pardon?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2005 1:00:11 PM
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gambit
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Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
Sigh....some things will never change.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2005 3:56:31 PM
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P31W
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Covaan,
Now you know good and well that David did not love the torah. He loved the Bible! Sheese get the verse right man! To help me understand you better do you follow the laws concerning food? what other laws do you follow that a Southern Baptist girl born and raised in Miss might consider to be foregin? 
Bob you said,
How can one do these things and love the LORD?
What is the first of the ten commandments? Do you know people in other countries have no problem what so ever loving our God and their "other god's". The idea of only loving ONE God is something very hard for thier minds to grasp.
Just as a child loves their mother, father, grandparents, brothers and sisters other cultures have no problem with the idea of loving God rather their problem is in rejecting loving their other gods.
< Message edited by P31W -- 7/21/2005 3:59:37 PM >
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2005 4:03:11 PM
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P31W
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quote:
Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
Didn't this verse have more to do with the gentiles becoming a jew (or whatever you call that - brain currently on strike -sorry) than it did with the gentiles living a life of holiness?
More of a Jewish pride thing. "You can't worship my God until you become a jew"?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2005 4:12:25 PM
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gambit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
Didn't this verse have more to do with the gentiles becoming a jew (or whatever you call that - brain currently on strike -sorry) than it did with the gentiles living a life of holiness?
More of a Jewish pride thing. "You can't worship my God until you become a jew"?
The Jewish Christians were insisting that the Gentile Christians needed to be circumcised and follow the law of Moses in order to be accepted into the fold. Totally missed the point of grace.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2005 4:19:10 PM
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bobservations
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P31W, I don't think I made the statement understandable. I was referring to the statement Covaan made "Ah. Corollary: one may choose to bear false witness, murder, take the Name in vain, for a few examples, because this will bring them life."
His was a bit of sarcasm because we believe we are not under the law.
I meant to say: how can we bear false witness, murder,etc. if we love the Lord. All these thing are covered in the Commandment Jesus gave. Love God with all your heart and love your fellow man as yourself. That covers the moral laws. If we submit to the will of the Holy Spirit we will become agape lovers. No finer trait. We will emulate Jesus.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2005 4:51:59 PM
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bobservations
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Covaan said: I am curious, because I read through this pretty fast: did anyone write that anyone had to be circumcised and required to obey Torah to be saved?
I don't think so Covaan. I am wondering though if some believe they have to keep the Torah in order to be saved?
Covaan, are you trying to confuse us with your interpretation of Psalm 119: 97-99? King James version, (post 51)? The verses say:
97 O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.
99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.
The Torah I believe is the first 5 books of the Bible known also as the Pentateuch. David was referring to the Covenant God made with Israel not the whole Torah. What authority do you have for changing words in the Bible? You may think this is picky, but what else are you changing that we are not recognizing.
David was under the Law. If David lived today he would be saying:
O Jesus how I love Thy Grace. It is my meditation all the day. Thou through Thy Love and Grace hast made me wiser than my enemies for your Love is ever with me. I have more understanding than all my teachers: for Thy testimonies are my meditation.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2005 5:49:31 PM
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Chief
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None of the OT saints acquired righteousness by observing the law. Faith accorded them salvation (Hebrews 11). David was no stranger to grace and salvation thus he loved the law. If he was here today He would still say, "I love Thy Law O Lord".
Ps 51:12, 14 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
Ps 84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly. O LORD of hosts, blessed is the man that trusteth in thee.
David and Paul would said: Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man
< Message edited by Chief -- 7/21/2005 5:56:34 PM >
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This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2005 6:10:02 PM
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grayfriar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bobservations
Covaan, are you trying to confuse us with your interpretation of Psalm 119: 97-99? King James version, (post 51)? The verses say:
97 O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.
99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.
The Torah I believe is the first 5 books of the Bible known also as the Pentateuch. David was referring to the Covenant God made with Israel not the whole Torah. What authority do you have for changing words in the Bible? You may think this is picky, but what else are you changing that we are not recognizing.
Bob,
I don't think Covaan is trying to confuse anyone...he is simple using the Hebrew (transliterated into English, ofcourse) word for law: Torah.
You are correct in calling the first 5 books the Torah, or the Pentatach. Then comes Nevi'im or the Prophets and finally Kethuvim or Writings; and the OT as a whole is referred to by anagram as the TaNaK.
Gray~
< Message edited by grayfriar -- 7/21/2005 6:13:23 PM >
_____________________________
The unrighteous man, when he sees a miracle, looks for a natural explanation.
The righteous man, when he sees nature, looks for the miracle within.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2005 8:06:41 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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P31W --
Okay. You have to admit it -- you're cute! At the same time, I did not intend to confuse anyone. You wrote: quote:
Now you know good and well that David did not love the torah. He loved the Bible! Sheese get the verse right man! To help me understand you better do you follow the laws concerning food? what other laws do you follow that a Southern Baptist girl born and raised in Miss might consider to be foregin? I had written: quote:
Not I! I, as David said in nearly KJV English (can't you just hear him?) say, "O how I love Thy Torah! It is my meditation all the day. . . . Great peace have they who love Thy Torah." The writer to the Romans said (in his own nearly KJV English), "Therefore love is the fulfilling of the Torah." But jesting aside, . . . I am sorry! I thought I was very clear that I was jesting by mixing the KJV with Hebrew.
In case this still is not clear, the Hebrew-to-English translation I use says "Torah" where the KJV says "law," because the original Scriptures say "Torahtot" (pronounced "toe-rah-tote"). Oh, and yes, I eat kosher food, although when I lived in Mississippi in '58 - '61, I didn't. Additionally, our first commandment (you mentioned the commands to Bob) is "I Am the L-rd your G-d." 
You wrote re Acts 15:5:quote:
Didn't this verse have more to do with the gentiles becoming a jew (or whatever you call that - brain currently on strike -sorry) than it did with the gentiles living a life of holiness?
More of a Jewish pride thing. "You can't worship my God until you become a jew"? You are absolutely RIGHT. SOME of the Pharisees, not the Jewish Christians (there was no such thing at that time), were saying that they had to become circumcised in order to be believers, but they were wrong: salvation is not dependent upon works.
____________________________________
Bob --
You wrote: quote:
Covaan, are you trying to confuse us with your interpretation of Psalm 119: 97-99? King James version, (post 51)? The verses say:
97 O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.
99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation. See my answer to P31W above.
You wrote: quote:
The Torah I believe is the first 5 books of the Bible known also as the Pentateuch. David was referring to the Covenant God made with Israel not the whole Torah. What authority do you have for changing words in the Bible? You may think this is picky, but what else are you changing that we are not recognizing. Because the Hebrew Scriptures say "Torahtot," as I mentioned above. David and the ancient people knew a lot more about our L-rd than many give him credit for, and he worshiped Him. See Chief's and Grayfriar's posts.
I'm sorry, people! Sometimes, I am not terrifically serious, and I enjoy laughter.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
Looking,waddling, and quacking are not the essence of duckness.
G-d has only one natural-born Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/21/2005 8:18:28 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Oh, by the way, I was doing verses 97 and 165.
_____________________________
Abiyah
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
Looking,waddling, and quacking are not the essence of duckness.
G-d has only one natural-born Son; EVERYONE else is adopted.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2005 12:34:47 AM
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talmid
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gambit
The Jewish Christians were insisting that the Gentile Christians needed to be circumcised and follow the law of Moses in order to be accepted into the fold. Totally missed the point of grace.
Ah, I think we are overstepping things a bit here. I don't see it as just legalism vs. grace (that is certainly present!). I see it more as a definition of salvation/inclusion.
I am willing to be wrong, but here is how I see this verse:
The pharisees would absolutely stand up and say "they must be circumcised!" because this was "the law of Moses" in reference to becoming a follower of Adonai.
quote:
Acts 15:1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
They were claiming that the gentiles must become Jews through full conversion (and circumcision is the sign of conversion) in order to follow Adonai (which to ANY Jew including Paul, the Pharisees (and Paul was one!) meant living according to Torah).
In order to take part in the ways of the chosen people, one had to be circumcised:
quote:
Lev 12:48
If a foreigner staying with you wants to observe ADONAI's Pesach, all his males must be circumcised. Then he may take part and observe it; he will be like a citizen of the land. But no uncircumcised person is to eat it.
quote:
Ezek 44:7
You brought in foreigners, uncircumcised in both heart and flesh, to be in my sanctuary and profane it - yes, my house - when you offered my food, the fat and the blood; thus in addition to all your disgusting practices, they broke my covenant.
But as we know, Gentiles were grafted into the olive tree of Israel (so many people ignore this part) and weren't required to become Jewish.
quote:
Rom 11:16-21
Now if the hallah offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole loaf. And if the root is holy, so are the branches. But if some of the branches[Jews] were broken off, and you - a wild olive - [Gentile] were grafted in among them and have become equal sharers in the rich root of the olive tree, then don't boast as if you were better than the branches! However, if you do boast, remember that you are not supporting the root, the root is supporting you. So you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." True, but so what? They were broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of your trust. So don't be arrogant; on the contrary, be terrified! For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly won't spare you!
Back to the topic at hand...
The Gentiles could remain uncircumcised and still be part of the children of Adonai.
quote:
1Co 7:18 - Was someone already circumcised when he was called? Then he should not try to remove the marks of his circumcision. Was someone uncircumcised when he was called? He shouldn't undergo b'rit-milah[circumcision].
Notice that as the apostles argue with the others in the Jerusalem council (this part of it) the issue of Torah as a way of life is not discussed. It is the issue of "how is someone saved?" Some Jews though that one HAD to be circ in order to be saved. About them Scripture says:
quote:
Gal 6:12It is those who want to look good outwardly who are trying to get you to be circumcised. The only reason they are doing it is to escape persecution for preaching about the Messiah's execution-stake. Hmm... they must have been afraid of the Jews who thought of anyone uncirc as unclean and unfit to be around, eat with, or even sit with. For this was the law of the Pharisees at that time (which goes against Torah, btw.)
Some more applicable verses which I think are just fascinating!
quote:
Rom 4:25-29 For circumcision is indeed of value if you do what Torah says. But if you are a transgressor of Torah, your circumcision has become uncircumcision!
Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the Torah, won't his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? Indeed, the man who is physically uncircumcised but obeys the Torah will stand as a judgment on you who have had a b'rit-milah and have Torah written out but violate it!
For the real Jew is not merely Jewish outwardly: true circumcision is not only external and physical. On the contrary, the real Jew is one inwardly; and true circumcision is of the heart, spiritual not literal; so that his praise comes not from other people but from God.
quote:
1Co 7:19 -
Being circumcised means nothing, and being uncircumcised means nothing; what does mean something is keeping God's commandments (aka Torah!).
sorry this was so long. Just looking up "circumcision" in the Crosswalk search tool was eye-opening!! Try it for yourself!
< Message edited by talmid -- 7/22/2005 12:39:23 AM >
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shofar, so good
http://hools.woordpress.com
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2005 12:57:54 AM
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grayfriar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: talmid
sorry this was so long. Just looking up "circumcision" in the Crosswalk search tool was eye-opening!! Try it for yourself!
Talmid...just did and this one made me stop and ponder:
Circumcision
1Cor 7:19
Circumcision does not matter and uncircumcision does not matter, but keeping God's commandments does.{emphasis mine}
I make the distinction here about "God's commands" and the commands of Christ in 1 John 2:3
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. although there really is no distinction between the commands.
Gray~ 
< Message edited by grayfriar -- 7/22/2005 1:09:52 AM >
_____________________________
The unrighteous man, when he sees a miracle, looks for a natural explanation.
The righteous man, when he sees nature, looks for the miracle within.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2005 12:58:38 AM
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talmid
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maybe i should have just made a nice bullet list!
*chuckles* thanks for the clear and concise words, TM, my brother.
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shofar, so good
http://hools.woordpress.com
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2005 1:18:49 AM
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talmid
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That's a courageous thing to say.
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shofar, so good
http://hools.woordpress.com
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2005 1:25:48 AM
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EZ_03
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quote:
ORIGINAL: grayfriar
1Cor 7:19
Circumcision does not matter and uncircumcision does not matter, but keeping God's commandments does.{emphasis mine}
Gray~
as DT Lancaster says, "but paaaaullll, circumcision IS one of God's commandments !?!"
a suggestion i've read: if we consider the term "circumcision" and "uncircumcision" to be broadly referring to ethnicity, i.e., "jew" and "non-jew" (and consider how it relates to the actual conversion ritual of the day where gentiles would be considered physical jews after the act), then vv 18 and 19 become, "if you were called as a jew - stay a jew...if called as a gentile - stay a gentile, for it is not being a physical jew (by birth or by conversion) or not being a physical jew that is important, but rather keeping the commandments of God (Torah) that counts."
this sure makes Galatians read differently, too...
kevin
_____________________________
Open my eyes that I may behold wonderful things from Your Torah. (Psalms 119:18)
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. (Romans 3:31)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/22/2005 1:28:50 AM
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ces
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The law of Moses could not save us, because of our sinful nature. Rom 8.3
Why do some of you insist on trying to do something that cannot be done?
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