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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2005 10:07:09 AM
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P31W
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quote:
I am a Messianic Gentile. I also know that EZ is Gentile. Most of the folks we fellowship with on the Sabbath are Gentile. We are against the separation of Jews and Gentiles
Shalom
Joy
OK now wait a minute. I am not "getting this". If you and some other on this thread are not Jews and don't come from Jewsih backgroups (as in raised in the Jewish faith and culture) why do you use words like "Messianic, Gentile, Shalom, Torah, Sabbath instead of just "regular english" LOL>
I know this is off topic and don't want to have a long reply rather just trying to figure out who these people are I am talking too.
PLEASE DON'T LET THIS ONE QUESTION GET US OFF TOPIC. A short sweet reply in regular english (southern english if possible) would sure help answer some of these questions in my mind.
< Message edited by P31W -- 7/25/2005 10:09:49 AM >
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2005 10:11:04 AM
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EZ_03
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bzirk, so are these your "proof texts"?
i'd be happy to go thru Acts 15 with you...again.
i'd be happy to go thru Romans 14...again.
i'd be happy to go thru 1 Cor 8, 9 and 10...again.
i'd be happy to go thru Galatians 5...again.
we've done all this before, but it can certainly be repeated...if you're listening.
our interpretations of these passages once understood in proper cultural, historical and linguistic context, is not what it used to be/what yours is. most of us have explained our positions on these passages on many occasions. they're not new to us, they just may not say what you've been taught they say.
i, for one, am not expecting "conversion" on your part with our brief (and sometimes not so brief  )explanations, but once we've explained them, i agree with a previous post from covaan, don't keep saying the same verses over and over...we know them, we've studied them, we interpret them differently...try something new.
shalom,
kevin
p.s. hi, btw - long time, no see...
_____________________________
Open my eyes that I may behold wonderful things from Your Torah. (Psalms 119:18)
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. (Romans 3:31)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2005 10:25:35 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
If you and some other on this thread are not Jews and don't come from Jewish backgroups (as in raised in the Jewish faith and culture) why do you use words like "Messianic, Gentile, Shalom, Torah, Sabbath instead of just "regular english"
I suppose I can answer that. I was raised classical southern Pentecostal. I am now in a Messianic Synagogue.
There are many among the Gentiles who have a calling to Jewish support and outreach. Dan Juster, one of the founders of the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregation (UMJC) has termed this a "Ruth Calling." We live amongst our Jewish co-believers and have adopted a Jewish lifestyle which includes Hebraic terminology. Just this past Saturday I chanted 3 verses from a Torah scroll. There is no easy "English equivalent" for much of what we do as it has been ignored by the church in general, or has been actively fought against.
"Messianic" does not have the extreme negative connotation in Jewish culture than "Christian" has, even though both mean the same thing. If you are trying to reach people with the Good News, you do not want them to stumble over the terminology. The gospel has its own offence, we do not wish to add to that.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2005 11:07:55 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I will admit it: I come to a point, in threads like this one, at which I close down and lose interest. Most of the time, I don't even join into conversation on such threads, like the Sabbath observance thread. I have been fighting the "Close-Down" here, but I must admit it: I am there. (Bad timing, I know.)
I am trying to analyze why this happens. Mainly, it is because I know the answers to the questions asked here, to what I see as your misunderstandings of the Scriptures, but I get tired of answering to non-Messianics who have no intention of hearing anyway. I am sure the non-Messianics think the same of us -- that we do not "hear" them.
These are the bottom line for me:- So you observe Sunday and we observe Sabbath. What's the problem?
- So we eat kosher and you don't. Why do you have a problem with what we eat/don't eat?
- So we observe the feasts and fasts and you don't. How does that diminish you?
- So I wear tzitzit and you don't. Why does that bother you?
- So we understand that the new covenant was enacted from the first believer and you believe it was enacted sometime after 7 b.c.e. Why does this bother you?
I ask these things, because this is what usually causes Christians to start getting it on with Messianics. I think we all need to back up and recognize that the enemy outside is vicious enough that we don't need to be fighting with fellow-believers.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/25/2005 11:43:06 AM
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a-lily
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
I am a Messianic Gentile. I also know that EZ is Gentile. Most of the folks we fellowship with on the Sabbath are Gentile. We are against the separation of Jews and Gentiles
Shalom
Joy
OK now wait a minute. I am not "getting this". If you and some other on this thread are not Jews and don't come from Jewsih backgroups (as in raised in the Jewish faith and culture) why do you use words like "Messianic, Gentile, Shalom, Torah, Sabbath instead of just "regular english" LOL>
I know this is off topic and don't want to have a long reply rather just trying to figure out who these people are I am talking too.
PLEASE DON'T LET THIS ONE QUESTION GET US OFF TOPIC. A short sweet reply in regular english (southern english if possible) would sure help answer some of these questions in my mind.
Sure...
I am a Messianic Gentile. I believe that God is the same yesterday today and forever. My heart is to follow is whole Word of God from Genesis to Revelations.
I use the word Torah because it means "teaching" it gets translated as “Law” in our English Bibles.
Messianic is my faith. As in I follow Messiah. A more appropriate term but much more controversial for this forum is Apostolic Judaism. In other words Jesus is Jewish the Apostle’s were Jewish and I believe that they taught a type of Judaism, but a very different Judaism then we know today.
Most Messianic are Jews so I make a point to say I am Gentile because I don’t want to even look like I am trying to me a Jew and cause an offense, so I say Gentile because I am a non-Jew. Honesty is the best policy.
I use Sabbath because its in the Bible. Shalom means Peace but is much deeper.
I use these words all the time, its how I talk, it’s a part of who I am. I was raised Pentecostal I loved the church I grew up in they are great people, full of love. I still believe in the in-dwelling, and am Spirit filled.
I don’t have a special calling to the Jewish people. I have a heart and desire for the Word of God and that has brought me to the conclusions and beliefs that I have shared on this forum.
Hope that helps
Shalom
Joy
_____________________________
"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." -Jesus Matthew 5 : 18
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2005 2:19:53 AM
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ces
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quote:
Jews kept the Law of Moses and Gentiles had 4 rules to keep, while being encouraged to learn the Law.
Huh?? What Jew outside Jesus has ever kept the law!! The Jews do not keep the law, if they did then we wouldn't need a sacrificial lamb!!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2005 2:44:19 AM
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Chief
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ces
quote:
Jews kept the Law of Moses and Gentiles had 4 rules to keep, while being encouraged to learn the Law.
Huh?? What Jew outside Jesus has ever kept the law!! The Jews do not keep the law, if they did then we wouldn't need a sacrificial lamb!!
Ces,
The Jews were not the problem. It is us, the whole of mankind, the sinners. That is why "WE" need the sacrificial Lamb.
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2005 7:38:34 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ces
Huh?? What Jew outside Jesus has ever kept the law!! The Jews do not keep the law, if they did then we wouldn't need a sacrificial lamb!!
Are you saying Paul lied when he said of himself:
Philippians 3:6b: ... as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.
I don't think Paul was a liar.
Did Moses lie when he told Israel:
Deut 30.11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12"It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
13"Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
14"But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
Did they lie?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2005 10:11:37 AM
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ces
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10 But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, "Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all these commands that are written in God's Book of the Law." 11 Consequently, it is clear that no one can ever be right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, "It is through faith that a righteous person has life."......"If you wish to find life by obeying the law, you must obey all of its commands." Gal 3
That pretty much says it all!!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2005 10:21:54 AM
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bygraceiamsaved
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quote:
Philippians 3:6b: ... as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.
What is the topic of Philippians chapter 3? Having no confidence in the flesh. Putting verse 6b in its proper context:
Phi 3:1 Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is no trouble to me and is safe for you.
Phi 3:2 Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh.
Phi 3:3 For we are the real circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh--
Phi 3:4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more:
Phi 3:5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;
Phi 3:6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness, under the law blameless.
Phi 3:7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
Phi 3:8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ
Phi 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--
Phi 3:10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
Phi 3:11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
Gills commentary says this:
Touching the righteousness which is in, the law, blameless. This he mentions last, as including the whole of his righteousness, civil, ceremonial, and moral; and which he fancied was so perfect, that whatever righteousness was in the law, or required by it, he had it, and to such a degree, that he was blameless before God and men; that he was justified by it in the sight of God, and could not justly be found fault with by any, or be charged with any defect in his obedience, either to the moral or ceremonial law; which must arise from great ignorance of the righteousness of God, and the strictness of his justice, and of the law of God, and the purity, spirituality, and extent of it, which reaches to the thoughts of the heart, and the first motions of sin; and of himself, the plague of his own heart, of the sin of lust, and of the exceeding sinfulness of sin, in every instance of it.
IOW Paul thought he was all that by following the law, he was not however.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2005 10:29:28 AM
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a-lily
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ces
[
28 There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. For you are all Christians – you are one in Christ Jesus.
We all stand as christians, or simply as believers in the body of Christ. It's not a matter of one saying that he is a believing Jew and another saying he is a believing Gentile. The two are one in the body, both are simply believers/christians.
Soooo... there is no male or female either???? 
Yes there is equality in Gods eyes that is why I believe Jew and Gentile should worship together, just as men and women worship together. However that doesn't mean that we are no longer Jew and Gentiles any more than we are no longer male and female.
I am having trouble understanding you, I don't think anyone here is saying that we are not "one body" Yea I'm Messianic but I still consider you my brother in the Lord. To me its just a different denomination. Or maybe I am missing your point altogether. 
My point earlier was that at the time Eph was written there were issues with Jews and Gentile fellowshipping. Some were teaching that the believing Gentiles needed to go through ritual conversion (not found in Torah) in order to fellowship and be saved. Its the same issue in Gal and in Acts 15 (look at verse 1). The problem was "doing Torah to be saved" that’s wrong and Paul deals with that, and now it gets read as we don't do Torah at all. This is where I disagree. I think it just a matter of I read Paul differently than you.
I am curious what version of the Bible do you use because my NIV and NASB are reading differently than yours. I also use Greek and Hebrew transliterations.
Shalom
Joy
_____________________________
"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." -Jesus Matthew 5 : 18
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2005 11:33:41 AM
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bygraceiamsaved
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quote:
I am curious what version of the Bible do you use because my NIV and NASB are reading differently than yours. I also use Greek and Hebrew transliterations.
I always find this to be the question of the day. It doesn't matter what version is used, when read in context ces is correct. What version is really a strawman argument used quite frequently.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2005 12:17:08 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
CES: That pretty much says it all!!
Except that is not all there is to say about it. You cannot take one passage and outweigh the rest of scripture with it. All applicalble scriptures must be brought to bear in determining what we are to believe.
And you did not answer my question: Did Moses and Paul lie?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2005 12:20:14 PM
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Mattumanu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: ces
Huh?? What Jew outside Jesus has ever kept the law!! The Jews do not keep the law, if they did then we wouldn't need a sacrificial lamb!!
Are you saying Paul lied when he said of himself:
Philippians 3:6b: ... as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.
I don't think Paul was a liar.
Did Moses lie when he told Israel:
Deut 30.11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12"It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
13"Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
14"But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
Did they lie?
You know, I REALLY WISH and PRAY that people would stop snipping the bible into bits and pieces and consider the entire narrative...
Dt 31:16 And the LORD said to Moses: “You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them.
Dt 31:17 On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, ‘Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?’
Dt 31:18 And I will certainly hide my face on that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.
The commandment ISN'T too difficult... but they broke it anyway.
_____________________________
Radical Grace Radio
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I'm a converted pagan operating amongst a nation of apostate puritans ~ C. S. Lewis
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2005 12:44:42 PM
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Mattumanu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved
quote:
I am curious what version of the Bible do you use because my NIV and NASB are reading differently than yours. I also use Greek and Hebrew transliterations.
I always find this to be the question of the day. It doesn't matter what version is used, when read in context ces is correct. What version is really a strawman argument used quite frequently.
Not a strawman argument, a red hering.
_____________________________
Radical Grace Radio
Tear Down the High Places
I'm a converted pagan operating amongst a nation of apostate puritans ~ C. S. Lewis
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2005 12:47:02 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
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I agree, that's even the better word to use.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2005 12:49:52 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
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quote:
Except that is not all there is to say about it. You cannot take one passage and outweigh the rest of scripture with it. All applicalble scriptures must be brought to bear in determining what we are to believe.
I would even go further and say all scripture is applicable in determining what we believe. Scripture interprets scripture. And it is interesting that you bring this point up seeing as you only posted part of a scripture and not the rest of the passage keeping it in context such as Phillipians 3:6b for example. Not even a whole verse but just part of it.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2005 12:52:51 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
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quote:
And you did not answer my question: Did Moses and Paul lie?
Another "red herring" to use Mattamanu's more fitting term. Moses and Paul did not lie as they are not saying what you are attempting them to say and as ces showed you through scripture would go against Galatians 3 which Paul also wrote through the direction of the Holy Spirit and since scripture cannot cancel itself out, it's the interpretation that must be changed.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2005 2:21:51 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
The commandment ISN'T too difficult... but they broke it anyway.
Agreed. That does not negate the statement that the command was not too difficult or out of reach. The fact that on Interstates with 55 mph speed limits and everyone drives 80, the 55 mph limit IS possible. It is choice whether to follow it or not.
By saying that the command isn't too difficult, you are agreeing with me.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2005 2:32:53 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
you only posted part of a scripture and not the rest of the passage keeping it in context such as Phillipians 3:6b for example. Not even a whole verse but just part of it.
And I only posted part of your response, too; the part I am commenting on here.
For context:
Phill 3. 4 although (H)I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:
5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
I did not think that Paul's lineage was germain to the discussion, nor his history of persecution. Is there something else in this passage you wish to comment on?
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2005 2:55:12 PM
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bzirk
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I keep hearing how Acts 15 and Acts 21 are prooftexts for observing the law, and how I Cor. 8,9 and 10 and Romans 14 can be explained as not supporting the abrogation of the Mosaic law. I honestly don't get it. So you guys are going to have to explain it to me.
The way I see it now is that I Cor. 8,9 and 10 and Romans 14 explain what happened in Acts 15 and Acts 21.
What's your view?
Thanks.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2005 3:02:59 PM
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DaveW
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Look:
Moses said the commandment was not too hard. Paul claimed to be rightous per the Law. One vital thing that is left out of this is that the Law NEVER required or assumed 100% compliance 100% of the time. That was a pharasaic invention. The whole sacrificial system attests to this fact. If no one will miss it there is no need for a sacrifice. Jesus is the only one to never have had need of sacrifice, except the pidyan ha ben, (buying back the firstborn). He never fell short in anything.
Secondly, perfect observance of the Law (even in Jesus' case) never made anyone rightous. As Paul wrote: "By the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified." Again, this is a pharasaic invention. All rightousness is on the basis of faith. As both Paul and James (quoting Moses) "and Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as rightousness."
Looked at in that framework, Paul's other statements about the Law make sense, even the passage in Gal 3. It does not conflict with what I have said.
As to translations being strawmen arguments, there are some that seem to slant their choice of wording toward an antinomian stance. Most words can be translated various ways, and it behooves the translators to keep their wording in line with the whole counsel of scripture.
For example:
Romans 10:4 (NASB) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
OK, what does that mean? The Sterns Translation renders "the end of the Law" into "the goal of Torah." Both are equally correct from the greek. If you take an antinomian viewpoint, the first would be correct and "end" would be taken as a terminus. You then have several other passages throught scripture to twist around into fitting that mold.
If OTOH, you take Sterns' renering "goal," instead of terminus, it brings in those scriptures and also fits with "Fixing our eyes on HIM, the author and perfecter of our faith. One should always keep your eyes on the goal.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2005 3:19:47 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
I keep hearing how Acts 15 and Acts 21 are prooftexts for observing the law, and how I Cor. 8,9 and 10 and Romans 14 can be explained as not supporting the abrogation of the Mosaic law. I honestly don't get it. So you guys are going to have to explain it to me.
Acts 15: 19 (NASB) "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
20 but that we write to them that they abstain from (AN)things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."
Acts 21: 20 (NASB) And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;
21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.
22 "What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 "Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.
25 "But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication."
Proof texts for NOT HAVING TO KEEP THE LAW for gentiles is more like it.
If you look at what is said in 15 and then restated in 21, James and Paul agree that gentiles do not have to follow the Law, only keep the 4 commands listed. Jews however are still to keep the Law. Read the entire chapter of 21 (too long to post here) and follow the action and accusation and what is done about it. Paul is accused of teaching Jews to abandon the Law. He follows James instructions to prove that false, and that he also follows the Law. Please do not fall into the trap of thinking Paul ever wimped out or caved into doing something he did not believe. He had already been warned of impending imprisionment and possible death and he did not flinch. To intrepret this as a weak moment is to try to make it fit with an antinomian stance. It is an insult to Paul.
The Law is not abrogated for Jews. It was never given to gentiles. It is that simple.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2005 3:50:16 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1747
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
you only posted part of a scripture and not the rest of the passage keeping it in context such as Phillipians 3:6b for example. Not even a whole verse but just part of it.
And I only posted part of your response, too; the part I am commenting on here.
For context:
Phill 3. 4 although (H)I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:
5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
I did not think that Paul's lineage was germain to the discussion, nor his history of persecution. Is there something else in this passage you wish to comment on?
Yep. I didn't post it to show Paul's lineage. That is not what this passage is referring to. Paul is speaking of his pre-Christian state when he followed the law perfectly which is what he is telling us in the preceding verses and thought he was pretty perfect and right with God for doing so, what he discovered after his conversion was that was not the case at all, in fact by his following the law it was just the opposite. He was lost and going to hell.
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"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2005 3:51:19 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2849
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
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Dave,
The only problem with your interpretation is that it doesn't square with this in I Cor. 9:
quote:
20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
22To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.
23I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
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may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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