Reading Job, 2 huge questions (Full Version)

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cantckaja -> Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/25/2008 11:50:53 AM)

while reading Job I came across 2 things that made me stop and think and I'd like someone elses thoughts.

1. Job 1:12 - The the Lord said to Satan "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him". Satan then goes on to inflict diseases, etc on Job. Question - does Satan normally have this power or was this a unique situation? I read it almost as if God's saying "go do your thing" which raises the question - if Satan can give people diseases, if I get cancer tomorrow how do I know if the cancer is from God or from Satan?

2. How much of Job is to be taken seriously? My Bible notes say Job is exagerating some things, but what is exageration and how much is wisdom? Example - Job 4:18 Job says "He (God) puts no trust even in his servants, and against His angels He charges error". Now we know from Satan that God would have reason to not trust angels, but is this statement by Job wisdom and insight into the spiritual realm, or the nonsensical ramblings of someone on the verge of death?


Thanks



Papa-san -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/25/2008 12:13:06 PM)

1 - In Job 1:12, God says Satan cannot bother Job's physical body in any way. The permission to go after him physically came upon Satans 2nd request in chapter 2. Satan has permission right now to do basically as he pleases right now. If you get cancer, just accept that it is cancer, and is within the will of the Father. If He doesn't want you sick with it, you won't be. Doesn't really matter who gives it to you... How are you going to handle it if you get it? I believe that is the question at hand...

2 - Job 4:18 is a description ofthe speaking of Eliphaz the Temanite, not Job. This man was not the best of spiritual supporters. It is he who speaks of the 'spirit' whoo visits him and says these things about God. That spirit was likely a representative of Satan rather than of God. This may be why he was such a negative person...


As to exageration, I don't believe there was any in this account. This man went through about the worst things any man could go through, and held his faith...



PromiseLander -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/25/2008 3:05:28 PM)

If you think chapters 1 and 2 are interesting, just wait until you get to chapter 40! You actually get to read about the physical description of 2 "dinosaurs," one of which is fire breathing. (That's not as crazy as it sounds, if you think it is, just google "Bombadier Beetle") Given that the book of Job is chronologically the oldest book in the Bible, and remembering that the earth is only somewhat over 6,000 years old, and that man and "dinosaurs" lived together (and that God spoke the words of interest here) we know that this is NOT an exaggeration as some commentaries suggest. The Scriptures are inspired words of God, commentaries are not. As I always say, read God's word and it's up to you to decide, but it's just exciting for me to see the confirmation in God's word of a "young earth."

(I put the word "dinosaur" in quotations because we've only been using that particular word since the 19th century; before that "Dragon" was common. In Job, it's "Behemoth, and Leviathan.")



cantckaja -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/26/2008 12:52:59 AM)

i'm not really asking if the dinosaur stuff is exagerated, but more if the stuff Job is saying about God's nature is exagerated. As i read more i realize it probably is, as he says stuff we know is not true ("i should have never been born", "God is unfair" etc etc). not sure how i feel about Eliphaz's vision though, the whole thing about angels not being perfect and trustworthy we know to be true from satan and the 2/3rds.



brokenheart58 -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/26/2008 4:42:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cantckaja

i'm not really asking if the dinosaur stuff is exagerated, but more if the stuff Job is saying about God's nature is exagerated. As i read more i realize it probably is, as he says stuff we know is not true ("i should have never been born", "God is unfair" etc etc). not sure how i feel about Eliphaz's vision though, the whole thing about angels not being perfect and trustworthy we know to be true from satan and the 2/3rds.



Job is saying whats on his heart......some of it isnt pretty.....he doesnt hold back anything...this should be an encouragement to us that we can pour out our soul to God as to what we are thinking and feeling and He loves us anyways!!!



deermousie -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/26/2008 7:57:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cantckaja

i'm not really asking if the dinosaur stuff is exagerated, but more if the stuff Job is saying about God's nature is exagerated. As i read more i realize it probably is, as he says stuff we know is not true ("i should have never been born", "God is unfair" etc etc). not sure how i feel about Eliphaz's vision though, the whole thing about angels not being perfect and trustworthy we know to be true from satan and the 2/3rds.


A key to all this, dinosaurs aside, is how God pronounces the quality of what all these men said:

It came about after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has. Job 42:7

Job - 1
"Friends" - 0

Job was distressed, his wife was absolutely no help ("Curse God and die." She needs to go to a women's seminar or something) and we can take it that even though Job was speaking from his extremity, the Bible faithfully records what he said. God didn't berate him for the hyperbole ("I should have never been born") but validates the man's righteousness.

Job's so-called friends get the back of God's hand, so to speak. God says they didn't tell the truth about God. The Bible truthfully records their inaccuracies, and God Himself says they didn't get it right (those are the worst words I think a person could ever hear). So when you read Job, know the "friends" words God says aren't true, but they are recorded as accurately as they were spoken. Satan's lies to Eve ditto.



4IMPersuaded -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/26/2008 9:32:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cantckaja

if Satan can give people diseases, if I get cancer tomorrow how do I know if the cancer is from God or from Satan?


Call me naive, but I don't believe God would give you cancer. All that God created was good. He allowed Job to go through what he went through for probably many reasons, but let's remember this-- Nothing is a mystery to God. He knew what Job would do and how he would react. Nothing that Satan could do to Job was more than God could carry him through, and this was all done by permission. Satan has no real power except what God tolerates.

The great thing about Job and many of the other people described in the Bible is that they were real and experienced awe and frustration and pain and everything else that we experience today! Remember, though, that God is in control and that this is not "plan B". He is working everything to His glory.



1love1God1way -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/26/2008 9:48:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deermousie

Job's so-called friends get the back of God's hand, so to speak. God says they didn't tell the truth about God. The Bible truthfully records their inaccuracies, and God Himself says they didn't get it right (those are the worst words I think a person could ever hear). So when you read Job, know the "friends" words God says aren't true, but they are recorded as accurately as they were spoken. Satan's lies to Eve ditto.


I just want to highlight this point even more, so it does not get lost.

Go through Job carefully. I have had people quote parts of Job that was said by his friends as a refutation of something, or to make a point.

The friends are full of terrible theology.



Kat_D -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/26/2008 10:31:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 4IMPersuaded

quote:

ORIGINAL: cantckaja

if Satan can give people diseases, if I get cancer tomorrow how do I know if the cancer is from God or from Satan?


Call me naive, but I don't believe God would give you cancer. All that God created was good. He allowed Job to go through what he went through for probably many reasons, but let's remember this-- Nothing is a mystery to God. He knew what Job would do and how he would react. Nothing that Satan could do to Job was more than God could carry him through, and this was all done by permission. Satan has no real power except what God tolerates.

The great thing about Job and many of the other people described in the Bible is that they were real and experienced awe and frustration and pain and everything else that we experience today! Remember, though, that God is in control and that this is not "plan B". He is working everything to His glory.


The whole purpose for God allowing Job to go through these sufferings is found in the final chapter of the book in 42:5 where he says: "I had heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You."

It is what the suffering produced in Job that is the key here. Before he suffered, he only had a somewhat superficial knowledge of who God really was, but through his losses and his afflictions, Job saw God. He saw His power, His love, His greatness, and His faithfulness.

In the end Job discovered "things that were too wonderful for him" and would have gone through it all again to gain what he had found. After this, we then see that God "blessed him more than his beginning."

"But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. " -I Peter 5:10



4IMPersuaded -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/27/2008 5:44:57 PM)

[/quote]

The friends are full of terrible theology.
[/quote]
You are so right, there.



iamjc-s -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/28/2008 11:31:11 AM)

quote:

Original: 4IMPersuaded Call me naive, but I don't believe God would give you cancer. All that God created was good.

Why?

When Christians have cancer there are 3 possibilities:

1> God increases your faith in Him & miraculously heals you completely, astounds the doctors.
2> God takes you home to be with Him in paradise.
3> God draws you closer to Him as you rely on Him to carry you through & beyond the treatments.

Being a Christian, in any of these cases you & God come out winners.
-



4IMPersuaded -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/28/2008 6:57:24 PM)

I didn't say that God won't use it to His glory-- I think the Word is pretty clear on that point. Yes, the three points you made are all possibilities. I was addressing the SOURCE of the cancer. Sickness is a result of the Fall. I don't believe that God give us cancer or any other illness.



techne -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/28/2008 7:13:47 PM)

waitaminnit -- the earth is only 6000 years old?!?!



earthless -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/28/2008 7:23:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: techne

waitaminnit -- the earth is only 6000 years old?!?!


Ha ha! Same thing I was thinking.. but I want so bad to be nice and not cynical. [8D]



4IMPersuaded -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/28/2008 7:54:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

quote:

ORIGINAL: techne

waitaminnit -- the earth is only 6000 years old?!?!


Ha ha! Same thing I was thinking.. but I want so bad to be nice and not cynical. [8D]

Ah, geez-- do you really want to go there?



Lapidoth -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/28/2008 8:20:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way

quote:

ORIGINAL: deermousie

Job's so-called friends get the back of God's hand, so to speak. God says they didn't tell the truth about God. The Bible truthfully records their inaccuracies, and God Himself says they didn't get it right (those are the worst words I think a person could ever hear). So when you read Job, know the "friends" words God says aren't true, but they are recorded as accurately as they were spoken. Satan's lies to Eve ditto.


I just want to highlight this point even more, so it does not get lost.

Go through Job carefully. I have had people quote parts of Job that was said by his friends as a refutation of something, or to make a point.

The friends are full of terrible theology.


I found myself doing this a time or two.
I reconciled my bible in Job by putting boxes around entire thoughts.
Then when I read a verse, I can see who was talking. Was it God?
Was it Satan? Was it Job? or Was it his friends?

As you say, many make their theology on some of the foolish talk of
mortal man.

In one frame of mind, Job is representative of the Church.
One lesson could be, "Have you considered my servant {Johnny}?"
And then Johnny wonders why God forsook him. But the NT tells us
that the trials build our faith.

Job can be confusing, but at the same time, it should reveal an angle
of God's sovereignty that we haven't seen before.



techne -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/28/2008 8:40:55 PM)

i love job -- it opens up so many questions, all the while asserting the soveriegnty of G-d.

perhaps because it is the oldest book in the bible, it seems to engage some of the issues we have with G-d, suffering and justice (not to mention relationships and righteousness) in a different way than we're used to.

a very interesting book -- yessirree.



GroupW -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/28/2008 9:53:55 PM)

So I'm curious - how many folks would agree that God would never be the source of a cancer?

Granted, I never really through it before, but God does give, and he does take away. If he calls me home in a great big instantaneous *poof*, that would be swell. If he chooses to call me home more slowly and gives me cancer then I think that's God's providence as well. I always get nervous making definitive statements about what God can and can not do. How he chooses to bring us home is maybe not as important as that we get there.

I fear sometimes we make God too small.

Part of the message of Job is that suffering exists. There's not much we can do about it, and there's even less we can understand about it. All we can do is have faith that God is good and trust - even when it really makes no rational sense.



4IMPersuaded -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/28/2008 11:47:14 PM)

bterpstra-- I won't belabor my feeling on this because I already weighed in, except for this... You are right that we try to humanize and box God in so that we may better understand Him. He can do anything he wants, I just don't think that the author of the universe and all that is good would choose suffering for us. He will allow us to reap the fruits of our own labor or allow us to experience grief or suffering-- Paul mentioned the "thorn in the flesh" that he struggled with. It was not removed, but God revealed to him that he (God) used it to keep Paul aware of God's infinite grace. Nowhere do I read that God gave him the "thorn."

BTW-- Here's another topic for discussion-- While in the book of Job, we see a discourse between God and Satan, I think we give Satan too much credit for causing suffering, too. Sometimes we suffer as a consequence of poor decisionmaking and try to lay blame elsewhere. Remember, Satan is not omnicient or omnipresent as God is.



Concerto -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/29/2008 7:18:41 AM)

I've read Job two times. Very interesting book. The reference to dinosaur is very interesting..sounds like a dragon. The book also shows that God is more concerned about our heart than our circumstances. He allows Job to fall apart, physically and emotionally and spiritually.

I'm still trying to find some good practical applications regarding suffering. Even if I could answer the question of "why" when it comes to suffering, I do not think I would find comfort. I just want to know how to alleviate suffering. But, suffering is unavoidable...the world is fallen. Sometimes God heals, but mostly, it would seem that He chooses not to.

C



DaveW -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/29/2008 7:19:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cantckaja

1. Job 1:12 - The the Lord said to Satan "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him". Satan then goes on to inflict diseases, etc on Job. Question - does Satan normally have this power or was this a unique situation? I read it almost as if God's saying "go do your thing" which raises the question - if Satan can give people diseases, if I get cancer tomorrow how do I know if the cancer is from God or from Satan?
Please note this same thing happened in the gospels:

Luk 22:31 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat,
Luk 22:32 but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."
Luk 22:33 Peter said to him, "Lord, I am ready to go with you both to prison and to death."
Luk 22:34 Jesus said, "I tell you, Peter, the rooster will not crow this day, until you deny three times that you know me."

IOW, satan again asked permission to harrass one of God's own, this time resulting in Peter denying the Lord three times. So clearly Job was not the only one God gave permission for the devil to plague.



4IMPersuaded -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/29/2008 11:35:06 AM)

Hmm... Not sure I want to be a faith warrior if THAT'S what happens to you, huh?[sm=crazy.gif] I can't say that being sifted is really on my prayer request list.



hoodleehoo -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/29/2008 12:52:27 PM)

Point 1

This is probably controversial, but many scholars believe Job to not be a historical account. It's not written in the format of a historical account, it's written in the format of a fictional story used to illustrate a point.

For example, say someone in the future found a story from the 1900's. It starts with "Once apon a time" and ends with "and they lived happily ever after". Most likely, it's not a true historical account, but rather a fairy tale. It's a similar situation with some stories in the Old Testament.

The creation story, Noah, Job, and Jonah are the ones I know for sure many scholars feel this away about.

Point 2

There are several stories in the OT that actually come from Mesopatamian/Sumarian culture which predate the Hebrew bible by at least 1000 years. It was common for cultures back then to change all of the previous religion's stories and illustrations to fit the new religion when they were taken over. For instance, the Sumarians had a creation story very similar to ours in that it started in a Garden and took 7 days to create, but the creator was a giant serpent/snake. It's possible that they took the basic story and changed the snake to the "bad guy" to make a point. It was a common practice for the old religion's gods to become demons in the new religions when a conversion took place.

Also, in the Epic of Gilgamesh (sp?) which predates the Hebrew bible by 1000 years, there is a part of the story eerily similar to the first few chapters of Genesis. There's a garden, a tree of life, a snake that tempts them to partake of the fruit...

There's also a story in Sumarian history (which might supposedly be a historical account, I'm not 100% sure) which is VERY similar to Noah and the flood. We know that the whole Earth didn't flood, but it is possible that a giant area was flooded. It seems very likely that the story of Noah was taken from the Sumarian culture and twisted to teach Jewish ideas. Scientifically speaking, it would be impossible to have every animal in an ark that big. There's a lot of problems with the story that scholars have difficulty solving when taking the stories literally.

The first two chapters of Genesis conflict with each other as they give two different versions of the creation story. Most likely, they are from two different sources. Genesis is really a patchwork of information from I believe 4 different sources (I used to know them back in college, lol) so it gets pretty difficult.

Point 3

Personally, it's difficult for me to believe that God would put Job through all of that just to prove a point (or settle a bet) to the devil. I think, but cannot say for sure, there is an old sumarian story about their god and demon that had a similar conversation and put a follower's faith to the test to show that he was not just being faithful because of prosperity. Too much smoke for me to believe there's no fire.

Obviously, no one but God knows for sure what parts of the OT are literal and what parts, if any, aren't. It's up to us to choose what we believe. From the information scholars and historians have now, this seems to be the best answer at the moment.



hoodleehoo -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/29/2008 1:19:09 PM)

I did a little research and found this. Everything on the internet has to be taken with a grain of salt, of course, but it seems to have some good info on the book of Job as compared to similar Sumerian poems which predate it.

http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2004-June/019210.html


P.S. Here is a great article refuting the claims of Noah's story being influenced by the Epic of Gilgamesh. It's a good read!

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/0329gilgamesh.asp



4IMPersuaded -> RE: Reading Job, 2 huge questions (1/29/2008 1:24:17 PM)

Thanks for your post, hoodle... and welcome to Crosswalk!

I think it is also important to point out that just because another religious tradition tells the same story doesn't disprove it. If there is only one God and the created the earth, it stands to reason that others besides the Hebrews would tell the tale. Many of the stories in the OT were passed down as oral tradition long before there was written language. Their similarities should support their validity-- ever played telephone with one generation of individuals in and enclosed room?

I tried to make the same point about the different ways that information is relayed in the Bible, but you said it much better. There are actually some stories that are written as stories rather than historical accounts. I do think that it is reasonable, however, to take on faith that there was a man represented by the character Job and that the events happened. I think we, as Christians however cannot discern easily because we don't spend that much time in study, learning what God would teach us. (Myself included.)



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