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RE: America In Prophecy - 4/14/2008 8:33:12 AM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 210
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano
Good point, bob.
Prophetica...my point exactly. But, there is no possible way anyone can KNOW what Revelation or any of the prophecies actually mean. I think it's a little arrogant of anyone to think they do.
Just for humor's sake, I have to say it: You're saying that God put the prophecies of the Bible in there just to mess with our heads, kind of like saying, "I'm God, and I'm way smarter than you and you'll never figure these prophecies out and I'll never share that information with you, because well... I'm cruel like that." LOL Sorry... just had to say it. hehehehehe
So, you're saying God would put prophecy in the Bible without the possibility of us figuring it out ever? What sense or logic is there in Him doing that?? Especially, since many men spend their entire lives trying to figure out the prophecies. How cruel is that?? They could've spent their time learning about Christ and sharing the gospel, but instead, they study only prophecy...for no reason, according to you, apparently. Oh, and if we cannot figure it out, why does it say at the beginning of Revelation that anyone who reads the book will have a special blessing upon him?
I find your statement a complete copout so you never have to try to figure out prophecy, in my opinion. But that's just my opinion...
_____________________________
- Brian
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RE: America In Prophecy - 4/14/2008 9:09:30 AM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
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Amen and Amen. For it is written: how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?"
Some of the teachers of the law and some of the Jewish scholars did not receive The Messiah when He came and enter the Baptism of Glorification at the Cross and descension to preach to the spirits that were captive because they did not understand The Holy Scriptures of God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano
Good point, bob.
Prophetica...my point exactly. But, there is no possible way anyone can KNOW what Revelation or any of the prophecies actually mean. I think it's a little arrogant of anyone to think they do.
Just for humor's sake, I have to say it: You're saying that God put the prophecies of the Bible in there just to mess with our heads, kind of like saying, "I'm God, and I'm way smarter than you and you'll never figure these prophecies out and I'll never share that information with you, because well... I'm cruel like that." LOL Sorry... just had to say it. hehehehehe
So, you're saying God would put prophecy in the Bible without the possibility of us figuring it out ever? What sense or logic is there in Him doing that?? Especially, since many men spend their entire lives trying to figure out the prophecies. How cruel is that?? They could've spent their time learning about Christ and sharing the gospel, but instead, they study only prophecy...for no reason, according to you, apparently. Oh, and if we cannot figure it out, why does it say at the beginning of Revelation that anyone who reads the book will have a special blessing upon him?
I find your statement a complete copout so you never have to try to figure out prophecy, in my opinion. But that's just my opinion...
< Message edited by ..... -- 4/14/2008 9:19:55 AM >
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RE: America In Prophecy - 4/15/2008 10:14:51 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
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We are given prophecies to know what is expected. America is Babylon.
As the bible says, they will eating , drinking, marrying, and not paying attention, as evident.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: America In Prophecy - 4/15/2008 11:15:51 AM
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Midwest
Posts: 251
Joined: 10/19/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
We are given prophecies to know what is expected.
What if our expectations are in error?
JMHO but I believe if we were meant to use prophecy to tell the future it would have been much easier to understand. I believe people like Sir Isaac Newton and Matthew Henry had the right idea about the purpose of prophecy:
"The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify men's curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own providence, not the interpreters', be then manifested thereby to the world. For the event of things predicted many ages before will then be a convincing argument that the world is governed by Providence." - Sir Isaac Newton
"Truth is the daughter of time. Scripture prophecies will be expounded by the accomplishment of them; therefore they are given, and for that explication they are reserved. Therefore they are told us before, that, when they do come to pass, we may believe." - Matthew Henry
quote:
America is Babylon.
Are you referring to North or South America? Not that it makes any difference. America is not Babylon. Babylon can not be limited to a single continent, nor can it be can be constrained by time:
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
The verse says the blood of ALL slain upon the earth. This goes back at least as far as when Cain slew Able, doesn't it?
So how can this apply to either North or South America?
I believe that Babylon, then, represents the often murderous, material greed driven nature of mankind, personal and government etc., trapped by the things of this world, Satan's stuff, to the person's personal condemnation, throughout the history of mankind.
< Message edited by Midwest -- 4/15/2008 11:34:38 AM >
_____________________________
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth;... Romans 1:16
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RE: America In Prophecy - 4/15/2008 11:39:56 AM
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sunshinesoprano
Posts: 938
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Midwest...that was a great post.
If we were meant to know exactly what prophecy means, IMHO, we would then have the knowledge of God. I think the very fact that, specifically regarding the rapture, end times, etc., that the Bible states no man knows the hour, and that He will come like a thief in the night, proves that it's futile and, in some sense, wrong, to try to play numbers games and make conjectures based on the finite knowledge that we have.
_____________________________
Pure Heart-Fresh, Progressive Southern Gospel
Sing, laugh, love, PRAISE!
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RE: America In Prophecy - 4/15/2008 4:52:43 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
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Dear Midwest! Please notice that sir Isaac Newton also proposed to predict a date, himself, based upon the Scripture: 2016.
Why should we listen to newton and others and not The Holy Scriptures?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Midwest
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
We are given prophecies to know what is expected.
What if our expectations are in error?
JMHO but I believe if we were meant to use prophecy to tell the future it would have been much easier to understand. I believe people like Sir Isaac Newton and Matthew Henry had the right idea about the purpose of prophecy:
"The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify men's curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own providence, not the interpreters', be then manifested thereby to the world. For the event of things predicted many ages before will then be a convincing argument that the world is governed by Providence." - Sir Isaac Newton
"Truth is the daughter of time. Scripture prophecies will be expounded by the accomplishment of them; therefore they are given, and for that explication they are reserved. Therefore they are told us before, that, when they do come to pass, we may believe." - Matthew Henry
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RE: America In Prophecy - 4/15/2008 10:53:14 PM
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Midwest
Posts: 251
Joined: 10/19/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
Dear Midwest! Please notice that sir Isaac Newton also proposed to predict a date, himself, based upon the Scripture: 2016.
Actually the date 2016 was not set by Newton, many others have determined this to be the date based on one of Newton's theories(which by the way did not include the date 2016). Note I said theory because Newton said "... that these Prophecies of Daniel and John should not be understood til the time of the end..." page 243 The Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocolypse, author Sir Isaac Newton which demonstrates that Newton understood that no man could have a complete understanding of the Prophetic scriptures until the time of the end.
You might find it interesting that Isaac Newton did say "And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived [sic for “long lived”] kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060. It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons wch God hath put into his own breast.26 read about it HERE Is this theory correct? I doubt it, but time will tell, but as you can see by the quote above he did not set an actual date and Scripture does say that we will know the season.
quote:
Why should we listen to newton and others and not The Holy Scriptures?
Why ask me this? If someone told you to listen to Newton and others and not the Holy Scriptures then you need to ask them why. I certainly would not recommend that to anyone, nor is that what I wrote. If you feel that is what I said then may I suggest you reread the post and gain an understanding of what was said. Once again you have demonstrated that you are commenting about something you have not understood and made a false assumption about what was said, please take the time to read and understand before commenting.
_____________________________
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth;... Romans 1:16
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RE: America In Prophecy - 4/16/2008 9:14:59 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 498
Joined: 10/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
We are given prophecies to know what is expected. America is Babylon.
As the bible says, they will eating , drinking, marrying, and not paying attention, as evident.
I've read your defense on the other thread of your idea, but I can't embrace it fully as you have.
I still think Babylon as portrayed by the statue in Nebuchadnezzar's dream is distinct from the first Beast Daniel saw.
I will agree there are striking similarities just as I can draw comparisons to each of the first three Beasts to the statue, however, I think these two prophetic accounts are set in parallel and do not describe the same three nations.
The Beasts are all end-time nations which are part of the Roman world. When they unite as shown in Revelation 13:2, they comprise the fourth Beast which is headed up by ten ruling Ministers or Kings. Out of this ruling council acting as the head of the Beast, one man rises up by political intrigue and supplants them. When he is captured alive at the final battle of the one 'seven,' the fourth beast is "decapitiated" so to speak and the control exerted over the first three beasts which makes up the fourth is dissolved, and so they, as foretold in Daniel 7:12 are able to survive the destruction of the fourth.
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RE: America In Prophecy - 4/17/2008 10:01:15 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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All the verses about the last Babylon, it is a kingdom, fit America now. Especially Rev. 18 which was 9/11.
We hate to think that we are, but we are.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: America In Prophecy - 4/17/2008 1:18:23 PM
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Midwest
Posts: 251
Joined: 10/19/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
All the verses about the last Babylon, it is a kingdom, fit America now. Especially Rev. 18 which was 9/11.
We hate to think that we are, but we are.
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
If as you say all the verses about Babylon "fit America now" then please explain how the verse(Rev18:24) quoted about Babylon fits America?
How is it that we can find "the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth" in America?
Can we find the blood of Cain in America or how about the blood of all the saints (like Stephen martyred approx35-40AD) who have been martyred in the last couple thousand years?
Babylon can not be limited to a single continent, nor can it be can be constrained by time. Twist it anyway you want, America may be a part of Babylon but America is not Babylon.
_____________________________
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth;... Romans 1:16
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RE: America In Prophecy - 4/17/2008 11:58:55 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
The towers came down in one hour. the World Trade Centers , city of merchants.
We also control the ancient city of babylon , Basra, Iraq.
We are the Babylon that John is speaking about, a future Babylohn.
We are the last kingdom, the worlds only superpower left. We have 800 military bases over the earth, with only what 250 countries.
We are the richest nation.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: America In Prophecy - 4/18/2008 12:36:35 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1909
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Don’t you understand that the Great City of Babylon is actually the city of Jerusalem?
The whole point of Revelation is to bring the House of Israel and the House of Judah to redemption, to test them through fire and acknowledge Christ as the Messiah. To fulfill the prophecies and covenants with Israel, His Chosen People.
You keep destroying the rest of the world and you ignore Israel where the battles will be fought. The Antichrist will set in the temple in Jerusalem, not New York City. The final battle will be fought in Israel, not America. Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
What other city has killed the prophets and saints? What other city is called Sodom and Egypt, where Christ was crucified? Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Does God call the chosen people out of New York City: Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
What you need to do is study the scriptures and quit reading the destruction of America stories on the internet.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: America In Prophecy - 4/18/2008 7:42:22 AM
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Midwest
Posts: 251
Joined: 10/19/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
The towers came down in one hour. the World Trade Centers , city of merchants.
We also control the ancient city of babylon , Basra, Iraq.
We are the Babylon that John is speaking about, a future Babylohn.
We are the last kingdom, the worlds only superpower left. We have 800 military bases over the earth, with only what 250 countries.
We are the richest nation.
If America is Babylon and "all the verses fit America now" as you say, then please quit sidestepping the question and explain how Rev18:24 fit's America. Seems to me like if America fits so well you would be able to demonstrate a Scripturally sound hermeneutic study that demonstrates how America fits. Once again here is one of the verses that you have not explained:
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
How is it that we can find "the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth" in America?
Can we find the blood of Cain in America or how about the blood of all the saints (like Stephen martyred approx35-40AD) who have been martyred in the last couple thousand years? If you can't show how this verse fits America then obviously not all the verses fit America and if all the verses don't fit, then America is not Babylon.
Are you saying Babylon is a kingdom? Doesn't Babylon ride on the back of another kingdom? Scripture says a beast is a kingdom but I don't see any Scripture that says Babylon is a kingodm. Please show the Scripture that supports your belief that Babylon is a kingdom or the last kingdom?
But if you want to believe America is Babylon go ahead just don't expect anyone else to believe it if you can not show a Scripturally sound hermeneutic study that demonstrates your point.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Don’t you understand that the Great City of Babylon is actually the city of Jerusalem?
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Just curious Bob how does this fit Jerusalem? How is it that Jerusalem will have the blood of all the saints in her? Does Jerusalem have the blood of the saints martyred during the Scottish reformation? How about the blood of Cain? Wouldn't these be part of all that were slain upon the earth? All is all inclusive not just part.
Tracydolls and Bob;
Babylon can not be limited to any one geographical area nor can it be constrained by time or else she could not have the blood of all slain upon the earth.
< Message edited by Midwest -- 4/18/2008 8:05:56 AM >
_____________________________
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth;... Romans 1:16
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RE: America In Prophecy - 4/18/2008 1:21:26 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1909
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Where have the spiritual wars of the past been conducted? Where did the crusades center their attention? Have not these conflicts always been centered on Jerusalem and the temple mount?
Won’t you agree that the events occurring in the last week are all spiritual events? Is not the whole conflict between God and Satan and the salivation of God’s Chosen People? Is not the center of attention Jerusalem…where do the two prophets preach and where are they killed…Jerusalem!
Don’t get me wrong…I’m not saying America will not experience some kind of destruction and quite possibly some limited nuclear war, in fact if things don’t change radically I expect it, but we are not the Babylon of the bible.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: America In Prophecy - 4/18/2008 1:54:55 PM
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Midwest
Posts: 251
Joined: 10/19/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Where have the spiritual wars of the past been conducted? Where did the crusades center their attention? Have not these conflicts always been centered on Jerusalem and the temple mount?
Won’t you agree that the events occurring in the last week are all spiritual events? Is not the whole conflict between God and Satan and the salivation of God’s Chosen People? Is not the center of attention Jerusalem…where do the two prophets preach and where are they killed…Jerusalem!
None of these questions show that Jerusalem is Babylon. Granted I can agree that much of prophecy is centered around Jerusalem but how do you justify saying Jerusalem is babylon when there is no way that Jerusalem contains the blood of all that were slain upon the earth? (not just Jerusalem but all)
quote:
Don’t get me wrong…I’m not saying America will not experience some kind of destruction and quite possibly some limited nuclear war, in fact if things don’t change radically I expect it, but we are not the Babylon of the bible.
I agree America is not Babylon and I also believe it is quite posssible that America is in for some rough times. How bad? Only time will tell.
_____________________________
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth;... Romans 1:16
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RE: America In Prophecy - 4/18/2008 3:17:35 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1909
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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We look at Revelation and try to fit it into todays world...don't forget that the Antichrist will establish his government in Jerusalem for a period of almost 3 1/2 years. Who know what things will take place in that city during that time. Who will be killed and what governments will give their allegiance. It will be a city of world power.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: America In Prophecy - 4/19/2008 12:04:08 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
You keep destroying the rest of the world and you ignore Israel where the battles will be fought. The Antichrist will set in the temple in Jerusalem, not New York City. The final battle will be fought in Israel, not America
AntiChrist is not mentioned in Revelations! The US got how many troops near Israel? America is Babylon a Kingdom. Arrogant like it describes her.
Christianty has killed alot of her saints. Crusades, the Pope at that time had to write them and tell them STOP destroying other Christians! The church of Constipole? being one.
No other country is as rich, has military bases everywhere.
Sorry, but in reading the Bible , America is BAbylon.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: America In Prophecy - 4/19/2008 1:46:57 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1909
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Tracy..
You’re pretty close to Canada; maybe you should move while you still can…you know “get out of Dodge”. No one should continue to be locked into a system that they apparently don’t like.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: America In Prophecy - 4/20/2008 11:09:11 AM
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lpzijlstra
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Is America Babylon?
Let us find the answer in the Bible, Revelation 17 ,18 and 19. NIV.
Read these chapters for yourself.
What do we learn from these chapters?
1. When the apostle John sees the whore, he is very surprised, astonished.
Why?
In the O.T. Israel is often called a whore, while Israel was going to the other nations instead to their Lord. They were in a way handling things as this whore of Babylon.
Israel belongs to the Lord and goes away from Him to another man.
So, the whore of Babylon could be the CHURCH, not the people, but the institution of the Church.
Let us look into this a bit further.
If it is the Church than we can understand that John is astonished, is this to come of the Bride of Christ, the church as an institution, a place of commerce in everything?
Even of slaves and SOULS?
2. The whore is riding on the beast.
The beast will be the kingdom of the AC.
This means first of all that these chapters are talking about something in the time of tribulation.
Because only than will the AC reveal himself. 2 Thess. 2:3-7
But it means also that the whore is not a nation.
The one who is riding on an animal is leading it, steering it in a certain direction. Is even taking control over this animal.
Has it not been all the time like this, when Church and State were not separated?
Many teachers believe that the whore is the Church of Rome.
It is Christianity in NAME, ruling over every nation.
Let us be astonished as the apostle John!
3. Why it can’t be America.
As shown above the whore is not a nation.
But we saw also that these chapters are about the time of tribulation, when the AC rules over this world.
As I tried to explain in other articles about the US, I believe that the US is not important anymore after Rapture and the opening of the first seal in Rev.6:1
see also: http://www.revealingthefuture.com/babylon_and_usa.htm
_____________________________
Jesus is coming soon!
http://www.revealingthefuture.com
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RE: America In Prophecy - 4/21/2008 9:02:48 AM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 210
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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If we've been judged, then what's your problem with us? lol
If you don't like it here, why do you live in America? Wait in Africa till America decides to pay you. :) Most of the other black Americas actually WANT to live here and enjoy it here because they have freedom here and can make a life for themselves. If you are sitting here waiting for a hand out, you may as well forget it, because there's no way our government is going to just decide to pay black Americans. Everyone else in the country would be in an uproar. It was the Egyptian's choice to pay the Israelites to leave. And since we like black Americans in this country, we have no need to pay them to leave.
If we're Babylon, please reconcile how we're "clothed in red and purple," how we are "drunk with the blood of the saints," and how we are "a city on seven hills." If you cannot reconcile those things, then you simply just get off on calling America evil, and that's really not appreciated here where we enjoy our country and freedom very much. Again, if you don't like it here, why don't you leave? Seems like you'd be much happier somewhere else if you're so upset with America and unhappy here. And according to you, it appears you think we'll be judged again possibly, so I agree with Bob, here. You should probably get out while you have time. Besides, if you REALLY believed we were going to be judged, why would you still be here? In Revelation, God talks to "His people" in Mystery Babylon and says, "Come out of her my people so you do not take part in her plagues (paraphrased)." So, are you not leaving because you're not one of His people, or are you not leaving in order to be disobediant to the Lord? Just curious. :)
< Message edited by Cephyr13 -- 4/21/2008 9:11:18 AM >
_____________________________
- Brian
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