RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (Full Version)

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Ezra -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/5/2008 12:11:59 AM)

quote:

please show me the Scriptures that supposedly teach bridal theology,


NMC:

To quote just a few...

"The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son..." (Mt. 22:2, see vv 1-14).

Then shall the Kingdom of Heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom... (Mt. 25:1, see vv 1-13).

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely." (Rev. 22:17).

The entire book of the Song of Solomon (actually Shir ha Shirim, the Song of Songs) is devoted to the theology of the Bride and the Bridegroom. All conservative Christian scholars agree that at the highest level, this book describes the relationship of Christ and His Wife, the Church.

I will not take the time to refute the arguments you have put forth, since they are actually quite specious. If you are prepared to go so far as to call a city (built of heavenly "bricks and mortar" no doubt) the bride of Christ, when marriage speaks of an intimate relationship between Christ and His people, then there is not much point in refuting your arguments.



yod -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/5/2008 4:56:04 AM)

The Bride is the faithful remnant of Israel and those nations (gentiles) who are joined to them.



every mention of the word "church" in the bible is referring to this....not a specifically christian religious institution that is separate from israel



Beanteaser -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/5/2008 10:24:12 AM)

Okay, I'm in! I don't have as much time to keep up in this thread as I'd like, but I will do my best.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

"The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son..." (Mt. 22:2, see vv 1-14).


Obviously, this is a parable. Also, when we read the rest of the verses you quoted, we know this is about the guests that were invited. In fact there is no mention of who the bride is at all!

quote:

Then shall the Kingdom of Heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom... (Mt. 25:1, see vv 1-13).

Again, another parable. Were all intended to marry the bridegroom? No! In fact the bride isn't mentioned here either. This is a parable about being ready for the return of Christ.
quote:


"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely." (Rev. 22:17).


Although most will disagree with me here, I believe this is when the New Jerusalem, along with the Spirit, calls us home.



Beanteaser -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/5/2008 10:41:51 AM)

Many will take the view that the New Jerusalem and the Church are exactly the same thing. This is false! Revelation 21 makes it clear that the New Jerusalem is the "Lamb's wife." Yet when we read the rest of the chapter and into chapter 22, we know there is nobody there, in fact any mention of anyone, is a future reference......notice the shalls or wills?

Also Revelation 19:7 is also used to "prove" that we are the Bride, yet verse 8 reveals a subtle distinction between the two. It says "......for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints." We must understand that we don't adorn her, our righteous acts do.



notmycity -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/5/2008 10:44:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LBolt

Amen! Ezra you gave an excellent post as well.

Let's face it, a city takes on the character of those that inhabit that city. New Jerusalem would not be much if it was inhabited by the King and the righteous saints. There are references in the OT which depicts Israel as a bride.

Isa. 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

Jer. 3:14
Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

This links up perfectly with the New Covenant which when you read Jer. 31:31-34 & Heb. 8:8,9,10 etal tells you that the receipients of this covenant is the "House of Israel and the "House of Judah."

All others nations are grafted into the vine...Israel just like in the OT...see Ruth, Rahab and the "mixed multitude" who came out of Egypt.

Regarding the "Bride is only the city of the New Jerusalem and not the Church" teaching this was widely taught by Finis Dake and is unfortunately not sound teaching. Our relationship with Christ is as intimate as marriage between a man and woman. In fact Hosea illustrates this so beautifully when YHWH told him to marry a harlot symbolizing Israel "a whoring after other gods."

Every time Israel backslid she played the part of an unfaithful spouse.

In Ezekiel 16:6-14
6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted F54 in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live. 7 I have caused F55 thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare. 8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine. 9 Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood F56 from thee, and I anointed thee with oil. 10 I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. 11 I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. 12 And I put a jewel on thy forehead, F57 and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. 13 Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom. 14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GODn Ezek. 16:6, Israel is depicted as a bride.

This is a beautiful depiction of a Jewish Groom and Bride scene.




Appreciate the Scripture provided. Thank you.

Question: Is there any reference to the NT church in any of the OT passages that speak of marriage to Israel/Jerusalem? I have looked and haven not found one.



notmycity -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/5/2008 10:50:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beanteaser

quote:

ORIGINAL: notmycity


Please provide that link if you can. As for any agreement, I’m merely looking to the Scriptures and have no belief apart from God’s written Word.




Try this link

I agree! You will notice I have only stuck with Scripture in my posts. Others have used others opinions, pointed me to websites, and quoted uninspired letters to make their points. Feel free to use any of my points if you'd like.

I'll probably jump in soon........


Bean,

Thanks for the link. I checked the first page and can see that you too espouse the literal reading of Revelation 21 by what I read of your first posts. I’ll read further when i get more time.
Appreciate it.

For the one who asked where I’m going with this thread, it’s purely about rightly dividing the Word. In this case we’re starting with the Revelation account of who the bride really is.

Thanks.



JimboFletch -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/5/2008 11:00:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: notmycity
For the one who asked where I’m going with this thread, it’s purely about rightly dividing the Word. In this case we’re starting with the Revelation account of who the bride really is.

That's not rightly dividing the Word - that's working a concept from scripture in isolation, the sort of thing cults are built on. If you are unwilling to take the entire counsel of the 66 books of the Bible in understanding a principle, then you are unwilling to rightly divide the Word. The Bible itself teaches that.



notmycity -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/5/2008 11:19:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

please show me the Scriptures that supposedly teach bridal theology,


NMC:

To quote just a few...

"The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son..." (Mt. 22:2, see vv 1-14).

Then shall the Kingdom of Heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom... (Mt. 25:1, see vv 1-13).

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely." (Rev. 22:17).

The entire book of the Song of Solomon (actually Shir ha Shirim, the Song of Songs) is devoted to the theology of the Bride and the Bridegroom. All conservative Christian scholars agree that at the highest level, this book describes the relationship of Christ and His Wife, the Church.

I will not take the time to refute the arguments you have put forth, since they are actually quite specious. If you are prepared to go so far as to call a city (built of heavenly "bricks and mortar" no doubt) the bride of Christ, when marriage speaks of an intimate relationship between Christ and His people, then there is not much point in refuting your arguments.


Thank you Ezra.

Regarding Matthew 22, please read on:


Matt 22:10-14
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.


Please compare the guests in this parable to this account:

Rev 19:9
9 And he saith unto me, Write, BLESSED ARE THEY WHICH ARE CALLED UNTO THE MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Who are the guests?

Please compare the parable of the ten virgins with:

Ps 45:14
14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee.

Are the virgins the bride, or her companions/guests? (aka “children of the bridechamber”? Matt 9:15, Mark 2:19, Luke 5:34)

Regarding Song of Solomon being used as text to support bridal theology, this theology can easily be traced back to Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153), who was of the Roman Church.

Regarding “Christian scholars”, I am reminded of Paul who counted his “scholarship” as dung:

Phil 3:4-8
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

I am also reminded of the Bereans, “ in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” (Acts 17:11)

Regarding being “[prepared to go so far as to call a city... the bride of Christ]”, I never did Brother. God’s Word does.

As for this “not making sense”, I am again reminded, “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!” (Rom 11:33)

Appreciate your feedback just the same Ezra. Go safely.



notmycity -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/5/2008 11:23:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beanteaser

.....Revelation 21 makes it clear that the New Jerusalem is the "Lamb's wife." Yet when we read the rest of the chapter and into chapter 22, we know there is nobody there, in fact any mention of anyone, is a future reference......notice the shalls or wills?

Also Revelation 19:7 is also used to "prove" that we are the Bride, yet verse 8 reveals a subtle distinction between the two. It says "......for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints." We must understand that we don't adorn her, our righteous acts do.


And so “it is written” in God’s Word.



LBolt -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/5/2008 12:22:55 PM)

We have been taught that Israel and the "church" are to seprate entities. In fact, it has been said that the church has replaced Israel do to Israel disobedience. I don't have to thoroughly break down this teaching, but a good glance of the New Covenant in Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Hebrews will tell you that the receipients of this covenant is Judah and Israel (not spiritual Israel, not the "church"). Judah and Israel.

The gentiles who get saved are grafted into the vine. Reading Exodus 19 & I believe 1 Peter you see common terminology. A chosen generation, royal priesthood, both are made in reference to the church and the nation of Israel. I don't believe we replaced Israel, I believe through the blood of Jesus Christ we are the covenant people. He broke down the middle wall of partition and made into twain one new man.

That's why Paul says in I Corinthians 10, that all our FATHERS were unders the cloud... all were baptized in the sea... all were made to drink of that same spiritual meat....spiritual drink...and that Rock was Christ.

The Corinthian church was a largely non-Jewish congregation. You see, the Bride of Messiah comprises Israel and those who have joined themselves to Israel GOD. So if Israel is YHWH bride in the OT then the church who is Israel as well is YHWH's bride. According to Paul in I Corinthians, that nation Moses brought out were our fathers. Abraham is our father and if you be Christs then are you Abraham's seed and a heir to the promise of God.

This is my scriptural reference to your question. Of course, this may open up another discussion about Israel and the Church...the two house teaching etc. but I think this is a safe deduction if we use the scriptures and allow them to interpret themselves.



LBolt -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/5/2008 12:38:33 PM)

Oh yeah, regarding the city in Rev. 21, you are right it is the Lambs bride.
Isaiah prophesied 62:1-5:
Isaiah 62:1-5
1 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. 2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. 3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God. 4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, F269 and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. 5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

However, this also includes the Israel/the Church as a nation. Notmycity, You make good arguments and I really enjoy this thread. In fact, I enjoyed reading the posts in this thread. I'm just trying to add more insight and substance. I'm trying my best to understand the OT because I'm finding more and more that the NT is more understandable.

As far the comment about the relevance of Ephesians and Ezekiel, all you have to do is read and compare. When Ezekiel says "I will wash thee with water...We, the church are washed with the water of the word of God...Ezekiel says that God clothed his bride with gold and beautiful garments...Christ will present his bride as a glorious church without spot or wrinkle.

I think there are some symmetry here.



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/5/2008 12:50:43 PM)

Ezra,

Marty Goetz (A Messianic Jew, if you don't know him) sings a song which says "We are His bride, taken from His side"....

Is that true? And, if it is, can you elaborate? Does it go back to the story of Adam and Eve when Eve was taken from the side of Adam?



notmycity -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/5/2008 1:16:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LBolt

We have been taught that Israel and the "church" are to seprate entities. In fact, it has been said that the church has replaced Israel do to Israel disobedience. ....



Thank you for bringing this up. It has to do with “Replacement Theology”. Here is one error of Bridal Theology.

“What saith the Scriptures” regarding God as a “respecter of persons” ?

Deut 10:17
17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward...

Rom 2:11
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Cor 12:13
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Review: Revelation is clear who is “ the bride, the Lamb's wife.”

Who are “they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb”? They are God’s “saints”, both Jews and gentiles, OT and NT. Jesus said, “many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt 8:11)

Again, it is written, “there is no respect of persons with God.”

Ps 105:6-10
6 O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.
7 He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

cp. w/:

Gal 3:27-29
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Back to Revelation:

Rev 19:9
9 And he saith unto me, Write, BLESSED ARE THEY WHICH ARE CALLED UNTO THE MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

We can look back in Scripture (both OT and NT) to see that there were those who were blessed in the OT and NT, as well as those who will be blessed in the end of days.

Rev 1:3
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, AND KEEP THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN THEREIN: for the time is at hand.

What are the ramifications here? Is not Revelation 21 part of “THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN THEREIN”?

Rev 14:13
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, BLESSED ARE THE DEAD WHICH DIE IN THE LORD FROM HENCEFORTH: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Who are those “WHICH DIE IN THE LORD FROM HENCEFORTH”?

Rev 20:6
6 BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 22:7
7 Behold, I come quickly: BLESSED IS HE THAT KEEPETH THE SAYINGS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK.

By way of comparison to Rev 22:7, we have this account:

Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Only by God’s grace would I not be so presumptuous as to “add” or “take away” from Revelation 21:2-27 and its description of “ the bride, the Lamb’s wife”. (see Psalm 19:13) This of course goes for all of God’s Word.



notmycity -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/5/2008 1:26:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra
...If you are prepared to go so far as to call a city (built of heavenly "bricks and mortar" no doubt) the bride of Christ, when marriage speaks of an intimate relationship between Christ and His people, then there is not much point in refuting your arguments.


I had forgotten to address part of this earlier. To reiterate, Gods Word (specifically “the prophecy of this book”) calls “that great city, the holy Jerusalem” “the bride, the Lamb’s wife”.

As for the holy city being “built of heavenly ‘bricks and mortar’ ”, that does not describe “ the holy Jerusalem”, and if we look again at Scripture, we will not see any such “materials” in the description of the holy city.

Thanks again.



LBolt -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/5/2008 3:39:13 PM)

There is no respector of persons, that why "whosoever will" may come and partake of the covenant promises of God. However, we are indeed grafted into the vine...

When YHWH spoke to Israel at the mountain...where the covenant was given in Exo. 19-20, he addressed them as Israel, however, there were those who were Egyptians (mixed multitude) present and partook of the same rite.

The scriptures you quote (Psa. 105:6-10) and others attest to that. As far as the New Covenant is concerned it stilled said" House of Israel" and "House of Judah" so if it's just for them where does that leave room for anyone else?

Easy, when we accept Yahshua as YHWH and Savior, we are graft in. Notice, in Revelation, the gates of the New Jerusalem has the names of the tribes on it and the apostles. Why is that? Why did Jesus tell Peter that they would judge the 12 tribes in the milliniel reign? Why did James address his letter in verse one of chapter one, "to the 12 tribes scattered abroad."? Why does Peter do this in one of his epistles? Why is there a book named Hebrews? Why does Matthew go to great lengths to prove from the OT the Jesus is Messiah Son of David? Why did Jesus so that He was come but for the lost sheep of the house of Israel? Why is the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation consisting of those from the 12 tribes of Israel?

When you understand that the nation was scattered into the "four corners of the earth" and assimilated into alot of different nations it makes a little more sense. However, Israel and the Church are one in the same and if He married Israel in the OT, then He renewed that covenant through His atonement on the cross. Therefore we are His bride as with the city.



notmycity -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/5/2008 5:11:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LBolt
.....When you understand that the nation was scattered into the "four corners of the earth" and assimilated into alot of different nations it makes a little more sense. However, Israel and the Church are one in the same and if He married Israel in the OT, then He renewed that covenant through His atonement on the cross. Therefore we are His bride as with the city.


Can you show this through the Scriptures please (specifically NT Scriptures)?

Thank you.



Ezra -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/5/2008 8:55:38 PM)

quote:

As for the holy city being “built of heavenly ‘bricks and mortar’ ”, that does not describe “ the holy Jerusalem”, and if we look again at Scripture, we will not see any such “materials” in the description of the holy city.


Actually, that is precisely what we find in Rev. 21:11-21.

So according to your theory, Christ is "married" to (1) a jasper stone "clear as crystal", (2) a wall with 12 gates, (3) a wall with 12 foundations, (3) a city which is 12,000 furlongs high, wide, and deep, (4) a wall of jasper, (5) a city of pure gold, "like unto clear glass", (6) a wall garnished with "all manner of precious stones", (6) foundations made of jasper, sapphire, chalcedony, emerald, etc., (7) twelve gates of pearl, and (8) a street of pure gold "as it were transparent glass".

Can you see the absurdity of your theory? I trust you will now admit that it is a ludicrous theory, and should be abandoned forthwith.



yod -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/5/2008 11:32:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: notmycity

quote:

ORIGINAL: LBolt
.....When you understand that the nation was scattered into the "four corners of the earth" and assimilated into alot of different nations it makes a little more sense. However, Israel and the Church are one in the same and if He married Israel in the OT, then He renewed that covenant through His atonement on the cross. Therefore we are His bride as with the city.


Can you show this through the Scriptures please (specifically NT Scriptures)?

Thank you.



Pardon me...I really don't want to offend you..but this seems like a very strange request to me?

Since there isn't a single place where "the church" is called the Bride yet dozens of places where Israel is, then it seems like the burden of proof that it isn't Israel is on you.

I've read in this thread where many christians think it is implied yet there is not a single place where it is actually stated....yet there are many places where it is stated in regards to Israel.

Why does the word "Israel" have to be re-defined to fit into a particularly complicated theological box....instead of simply accepting that God has no problem with communication and says exactly what He means?

I really don't understand how christians can say with a straight face that the Bible doesn't actually mean what it actually says?



notmycity -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/6/2008 10:52:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

As for the holy city being “built of heavenly ‘bricks and mortar’ ”, that does not describe “ the holy Jerusalem”, and if we look again at Scripture, we will not see any such “materials” in the description of the holy city.


Actually, that is precisely what we find in Rev. 21:11-21.

So according to your theory, Christ is "married" to (1) a jasper stone "clear as crystal", (2) a wall with 12 gates, (3) a wall with 12 foundations, (3) a city which is 12,000 furlongs high, wide, and deep, (4) a wall of jasper, (5) a city of pure gold, "like unto clear glass", (6) a wall garnished with "all manner of precious stones", (6) foundations made of jasper, sapphire, chalcedony, emerald, etc., (7) twelve gates of pearl, and (8) a street of pure gold "as it were transparent glass".

Can you see the absurdity of your theory? I trust you will now admit that it is a ludicrous theory, and should be abandoned forthwith.


Thank you Ezra. No theories needed. :o)

Here’s the Scripture again:

Rev 21:9-11
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE.
10 AND HE CARRIED ME AWAY IN THE SPIRIT TO A GREAT AND HIGH MOUNTAIN, AND SHEWED ME THAT GREAT CITY, THE HOLY JERUSALEM, DESCENDING OUT OF HEAVEN FROM GOD,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal...

Here’s more Scripture many I have known consider to be “absurdity” and “ludicrous”.
“...Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son...” Would you agree that by most folks’ experience and thinking the account of the virgin birth is “ludicrous”? Speaking of absurdity, can we further agree that “the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God”?

Human logic and academia will never be able to explain the virgin birth or the cross, and I don’t pretend to fully understand Revelation 21:9-11, or for that matter, the gospel in its entirety. What I will say is that I receive these things on faith, “as a little child” (Matt 18:3, Mark 10:15, Luke 18:17). Further, “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Cor 2:14), and yet again the account of the Lamb’s wife is every bit as clear and direct as the accounts of the virgin birth and the cross.

Brother, I must say that prior to this thread, all of your posts that I have read were 100% in line with the Holy Scriptures. I pray that you will read (and re-read as needed) Revelation 19-22 through the eyes of faith as “a little child”, ensuring that you check the hats of “scholarship” and “logic” at the door of faith, as one has nothing to do with the other.

I have neither added to or taken away from “the prophecy of this book” (Rev 22:18-19), and by God’s grace I have, and will continue to “hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.” (Rev 1:3)

Thanks again.



LBolt -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/6/2008 11:31:44 AM)

As far as Israel being scattered here's a few:

Matt. 10:6 - But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mt 15:24 -
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

John 11:52- And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

John 7:35: Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

James 1:1 - James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Romans 15:27 - 27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

Ephesians 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

We might need another thread to fully explain this. As far as us "checking scholarship at the door"---No!
There are thing that are hard for the human mind to conceive but it does demand us to toss out scholarship.



notmycity -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/6/2008 1:32:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LBolt

As far as Israel being scattered here's a few:

Matt. 10:6 - But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mt 15:24 -
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

John 11:52- And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

John 7:35: Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

James 1:1 - James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Romans 15:27 - 27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

We might need another thread to fully explain this. As far as us "checking scholarship at the door"---No!
There are thing that are hard for the human mind to conceive but it does demand us to toss out scholarship.


Thank you, but it appears you have gotten off-topic.



Beanteaser -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/6/2008 5:13:35 PM)

One thing I want to add is that many people here believe that the Church has replaced Israel as the literal bride. (BTW, when Israel is referred to as the Bride, this is figurative language to show their infidelity towards God). When considering this, we must consider that God is a Triune God......the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Which member of the Trinity is "married" in the OT. Has that changed?

It seems that the father/son relationship is much more biblical than we being a literal bride. Revelation 21:7 is proof of this, in fact this is the only kind of relationship mentioned in that chapter in regards to us. We really are adopted! See Galatians 4.



notmycity -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/6/2008 6:09:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
....It seems that the father/son relationship is much more biblical than we being a literal bride. Revelation 21:7 is proof of this, in fact this is the only kind of relationship mentioned in that chapter in regards to us. We really are adopted! See Galatians 4.


Let’s go so far as to sat that “the father/son relationship” IS Scriptural, whereas the “church-bride” teaching clearly is not.

Consider the following Scriptures. It is written:

John 1:12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the SONS of God, even to them that believe on his name...

Rom 8:14
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the SONS of God.

Rom 8:18-19
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the SONS of God.

Phil 2:15
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the SONS of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world...

I Jn 3:1-2
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the SONS of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the SONS of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Rev 21:7
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Please also compare to:


Rom 1:7
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from GOD OUR FATHER, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

1 Cor 1:3
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from GOD OUR FATHER, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

2 Cor 1:2
2 Grace be to you and peace from GOD OUR FATHER, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

Eph 1:2
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from GOD OUR FATHER, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

Phil 1:2
2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from GOD OUR FATHER, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

Col 1:2
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from GOD OUR FATHER and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

1Thes 1:1
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from GOD OUR FATHER, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

II Th 1:2
2 Grace unto you, and peace, from GOD OUR FATHER and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

1 Tim 1:2
2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from GOD OUR FATHER and Jesus Christ our Lord.
(KJV)

Phile 1:3
3 Grace to you, and peace, from GOD OUR FATHER and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

Let us please not forget the prayer of Jesus in John 17 speaking of the Father and the Son:

John 17:21-24
21 That they all may be one; as thou, FATHER, ART IN ME, AND I IN THEE, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE THAT THOU HAST SENT ME.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.



How did Jesus teach us to pray? “After this manner therefore pray ye: OUR FATHER which art in heaven , Hallowed be thy name....”



Beanteaser -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/6/2008 6:55:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: notmycity

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
....It seems that the father/son relationship is much more biblical than we being a literal bride. Revelation 21:7 is proof of this, in fact this is the only kind of relationship mentioned in that chapter in regards to us. We really are adopted! See Galatians 4.


Let’s go so far as to sat that “the father/son relationship” IS Scriptural, whereas the “church-bride” teaching clearly is not.



Agreed!

If we are being literal with those two relationships, I agree with you 100%. However, the church-bride relationship is used as a metaphor a couple of times. Problems arise when people interpret metaphors/parables literally.



Ezra -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/6/2008 11:54:25 PM)

quote:

I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE.
10 AND HE CARRIED ME AWAY IN THE SPIRIT TO A GREAT AND HIGH MOUNTAIN, AND SHEWED ME THAT GREAT CITY, THE HOLY JERUSALEM, DESCENDING OUT OF HEAVEN FROM GOD,


NMC:

You keep reverting to this Scripture with the idea that it can only be interpreted literally. Yet, the Bible is full of figures of speech which must be interpreted in the context of the entire doctrine.

If, according to your theory (and that's all it is), this Scripture can only be interpreted literally, then you must also literally interpret what Christ said about eating His body and drinking His blood? So have you literally eaten Christ's body and drunk His blood? And do you literally have a river of living water flowing out of you?

Do you see how utterly absurd your position is? Fact is, you have commited yourself to this absurd position, and chances are you will continue to keep quoting the above Scripture as though it is literal.

So pray tell us how a city will behave as a bride and a wife? Will it give birth to literal children? Will it embrace it's husband? Have you seen any cities which were literally married to each other, or, more absurdly, literally to people? Have you seen gems and precious stones and gold literally married to something?

And please don't come back with the rejoinder "Oh, this is the Word of God". The Word of Truth must be "rightly divided" or rightly interpreted, and Scripture speaks again and again about interpreting the Word. Interpretation is an essential component of understanding God's truth, which is full of figures of speech.



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