RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ?

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JoToP -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/8/2008 1:27:22 PM)
The most popular way to misargue a point is to hold a doctrine that requires good and necessary consequence, then deny the same to everybody else when your view is threatened, i.e. call "Eisegesis!" by attempting to corner your opponent in the Explicit Text closet. Someone asked earlier, I'll renew the question... WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY "GOD IS A TRINITY, THREE IN ONE". There are other ways to hermeneut than explicit text. I hope you learn this some day, then, maybe, you'll have more respect for the Bride.

notmycity -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/8/2008 2:17:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JoToP The most popular way to misargue a point is to hold a doctrine that requires good and necessary consequence, then deny the same to everybody else when your view is threatened, i.e. call "Eisegesis!" by attempting to corner your opponent in the Explicit Text closet. Someone asked earlier, I'll renew the question... WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY "GOD IS A TRINITY, THREE IN ONE". There are other ways to hermeneut than explicit text. I hope you learn this some day, then, maybe, you'll have more respect for the Bride. Good question, and for the sake of getting us back to the OP, I’ll answer. “Trinity” is a man-made, theological term with absolutely NO basis in Scripture. I Jn 5:7 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. Does the above described a “group of three individuals” (aka trinity)? No, it doesn’t. Deut 6:4 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: (KJV) Mal 2:10 10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? (KJV) Mark 12:32 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: (KJV) Rom 3:30 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. (KJV) Eph 4:6 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (KJV) I John 5:7 cannot be described with human wisdom. It is simply to be taken on faith. Oh, and the word “trinity” occurs no where in Scripture, just as the church as a “bride” does not. Only you and God know if this is an attempt at circular reasoning. If it is, it doesn’t flow with faith and sound doctrine. Back to the OP please?

JoToP -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/8/2008 2:22:25 PM)
quote: “Trinity” is a man-made, theological term with absolutely NO basis in Scripture. You're on your own, friend.

yod -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/8/2008 2:25:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JoToP Now, he speaks through individuals here and there and corrects all the mistakes made by such dullards as Augustine, Anselm, Jerome, etc. and such weird convocations of barbaric Christians as Nicea, Chalcedon, Ephesus, Carthage, etc. For 2000 years the Church has regarded itself as Christ's Bride and now, at this great date in history, we get to hear how stupid every Christian has been all that time. Are you speaking about the same church that killed everyone who disagreed with them? That is one way to silence the truth...but it isn't the "christian" way, imo For millennia the institution known as the church has spiritually re-applied verses to itself which were understood by the Apostles of the original assembly (the faithful jewish remant) to be peculiar to Israel alone. This is pure arrogance! The word "church" does not appear in the original language of the bible. It is an english translation which implies a theological intent that does not exist in the original writings. Tyndale was burned at the stake for refusing to translate "kahal" and "ecclesia" and "synagoge" as church. The Puritans were persecuted for rejecting that translation in the King James and had to escape to America. The Body and Bride of Messiah is the faithful remnant of Israel and those gentiles/nations who are joined to them. This is pervasive and obvious throughout scripture yet a theological device formed in prejudice against jews has hidden it from far too many of His Body. Ephesians chapters 2 & 3 state quite clearly that we are "fellow heirs" with them, the faithful jewish remnant who was awaiting Yeshua for 3 millenia before we ever heard of Moses. Eph 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, (Israel/the jews) 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. Lest that isn't enough for you, Paul repeats this concept in the next chapter Eph 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, (not the other way around) members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. That should settle it. ISRAEL is the Bride and we are joined to them through faith in the King of the Jews

notmycity -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/8/2008 2:37:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JoToP quote: “Trinity” is a man-made, theological term with absolutely NO basis in Scripture. You're on your own, friend. Or at least in the extreme minority. :o) There was a certain guy named Elijah who thought he was alone until the Lord told him of seven thousand others. Rom 11:2-5 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. “....Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?” May He find me and mine faithful when He comes! “[He] that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Back to the OP please?

LBolt -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/8/2008 3:09:11 PM)
Amen, Yod! It's very important that the Body of Christ understands who we are and break away from the traditions of man. We are seriously suffering from an identity crisis. Hosea prophesied that after 2 days YHWH would revive us and on the third day He would raise us up and that we'd live in His sight. If we could just get free from these crazy man-made doctrines such as the "Church isn't the bride" and walk in our true inheritance we would be further along.

notmycity -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/8/2008 4:17:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LBolt If we could just get free from these crazy man-made doctrines such as the "Church isn't the bride" and walk in our true inheritance we would be further along. I’m still waiting to see in Scripture where the church is “the bride of Christ”. 82 posts and no one has shown me this teaching in Scripture. Thank you.

Ezra -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/8/2008 5:35:43 PM)
quote: I’m still waiting to see in Scripture where the church is “the bride of Christ”. 82 posts and no one has shown me this teaching in Scripture. You have not only been shown the Scriptures, but also the doctrine behind the Scriptures. However, you have chosen to hold fast to your absurd position, therefore "showing" Scriptures again, or other Scriptures which are related, will be entirely meaningless. There is such a thing as wilful blindness.

notmycity -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/8/2008 5:54:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra You have not only been shown the Scriptures, but also the doctrine behind the Scriptures. Thanks Ezra, What I have been shown is nothing but eisegesis, a revision of certain texts to make the errant claim that the church is “Christ’s bride”. Revelation 21 is clear and direct, and the ONLY Scripture that speaks of “the bride, the Lamb's wife.” Again, what follows is the description of the holy city (not the inhabitants). Thanks again.

notmycity -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/8/2008 5:59:59 PM)
Here’s a question for everyone: Regarding Song of Solomon, it has often been taught as a picture of Christ and the church as His bride. Does anyone concur with this? Thanks again.

JesKlu -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/8/2008 7:58:41 PM)
Hello NotMyCity! The topic you have started just a few days ago has been filled with many scriptural references to the bride of Christ. Even your friends here have given you scriptural support to your question. But now I would like to ask you a question. What exactly are you looking for? For myself I agree with Ezra and his sound teaching. Is there some more hints you can give us to your initial question? Jessica

noitulover -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/9/2008 12:53:04 AM)
If the body is the Church and the Church is the brethren and body being us believers, and the brethren and body is to be married to him who is raised from the dead, then the Church is the Bride. I don't get it. Humor me. Who says the Scriptures don't illustrate that the Church is the Bride of Christ? Why would you say something so obviously easy to prove erroneous? Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. Ephesians 5:31-33 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband. 2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. Revelation 19:6-9 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. The new covenant is another marriage contract that will not be broken. It was sealed with the shed blood of Jesus Christ on Calvary! Before Jesus was crucified, He gathered His apostles during His last Passover meal and “took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father’s kingdom” ( Matt 26:27-29 NIV). There are several key points to what Jesus said in this passage. First we must understand Jewish wedding customs to grasp fully what He was saying. When a Jewish man proposed marriage to a Jewish woman, He would give her a contract called a Ketubah. In the contract were all the promises to his future bride. It also stated the price he would pay to obtain her. If she agreed, the bridegroom would hand her a cup of wine, if she drank from the cup the marriage was sealed and they became legally married. He would then say to her “I will not drink of this cup until we are reunited”. This was said because they would separate for at least a year as he prepared a place for them. Another reason he would not drink of the cup again was because if he did he would be proposing to someone else! No wonder Jesus said, “drink from it, all of you”, because their acceptance of the cup meant they would be legally married. He also said, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” In this statement Jesus was laying out the price He would pay to obtain His bride. The wages of sin is death and He paid this on our behalf (Romans 6:23). He could pay this because He Himself was without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Have you partaken of His cup? If you have, did you realize you have already accepted marriage to Jesus! Does this change your commitment and faithfulness to Him? It should, knowing that God has called you to have an intimate relationship with Him. You therefore should seek to know the depth of this relationship so you may “know this love that surpasses knowledge — that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God” (Ephesians 3:19 NIV). [8\|]

yod -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/9/2008 1:16:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra quote: I’m still waiting to see in Scripture where the church is “the bride of Christ”. 82 posts and no one has shown me this teaching in Scripture. You have not only been shown the Scriptures, but also the doctrine behind the Scriptures. However, you have chosen to hold fast to your absurd position, therefore "showing" Scriptures again, or other Scriptures which are related, will be entirely meaningless. There is such a thing as wilful blindness. all he has gotten from the "Bride is the church" side is theological commentary. Doctrine depends on who is presuming it. He asked for the verse that actually say it...and there are none. I will keep repeating this until someone will be intellectually honest about it... The word "church" does not appear in the original language of the bible. It is an english translation which implies a theological intent that does not exist in the original writings. Tyndale was burned at the stake for refusing to translate "kahal" and "ecclesia" and "synagoge" as church. The Puritans were persecuted for rejecting that translation in the King James and had to escape to America. The Body and Bride of Messiah is the faithful remnant of Israel and those gentiles/nations who are joined to them. This is pervasive and obvious throughout scripture. Yet prejudice against jews has been handed down from the so-called "church fathers", expanded through the RCC, and continued through western european Protestants. Ephesians chapters 2 & 3 state quite clearly that we are "fellow heirs" with them, the faithful jewish remnant. So, yes, all believers are included in the Body and as the Bride...but it is through Israel....not an institution separate of her.

noitulover -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/9/2008 2:15:20 AM)
quote: He asked for the verse that actually say it...and there are none. Church as the so-called bride of Christ? Hi, Many of us have been taught this, and yet I find no such teaching in the Scriptures. I thought I’d toss it out to see if and what turns up. ...Posed by notmycity The Scriptures do say it especially 2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. The words do not match notmycity's verbatim sentiment, but in no uncertain terms espoused to one husband is a no brainer and not a stretch even for a graduate of elementary school. Yod, you made your point. You previously explained the Scriptures paralleling Israel as the Bride. And us believers as cojoined to Isreal You added nothing now except to mock other people's postings. You go so far as to discount the very Scriptures that illustrate the Church is the bride of Christ. In place of bride is espoused to one husband. A graduate from elementary school knows in this passage this means bride to be or even wife to be. Yod, you continue to vex me with your false reflections and downright at times false witness. Due to your insidious and pernicious manner of doubling back on other people's train of thought in order to switch the tracks on their reasoning, you cause me contention with administrators in these forums. Your subtle contriving jests cause sin. In so doing my sin becomes your responsibility. I am the victim and the one who cries out in pain will get the slap. The guilt is reserved for you even if I the victim am victimized.

notmycity -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/9/2008 11:16:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: noitulover First we must understand Jewish wedding customs to grasp fully what He was saying. When a Jewish man proposed marriage to a Jewish woman, He would give her a contract called a Ketubah...... Thank you. I am reminded of: Col 2:8 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, AFTER THE TRADITION OF MEN, AFTER THE RUDIMENTS OF THE WORLD, AND NOT AFTER CHRIST. Profaning the Cross of Christ by likening His unspeakable sacrifice as our PASSOVER LAMB (according to Scripture) to something altogether different - a Jewish wedding. Where does Jesus do this? No where. Where do His apostles teach this? No where. Where is this teaching in Scripture? No where. I posted this earlier, the Greek for married in Romans 7:4 does not mean “to wed”. Please look it up. Any comments on Song of Solomon anyone?

Beanteaser -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/9/2008 6:00:08 PM)
A couple verses to consider are Matthew 22:30 and Galatians 4:26. Jesus Himself said those resurrected won't marry. I may not fully understand Galatians 4:26 fully, but what is clear is that the Jerusalem above is different than those below.

Ezra -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/9/2008 6:15:37 PM)
quote: all he has gotten from the "Bride is the church" side is theological commentary. Doctrine depends on who is presuming it. He asked for the verse that actually say it...and there are none. There are indeed, for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. A wife is firstly a bride, and at her marriage she becomes the wife. This is a metaphor applied to the Church. First of all, we must be crystal clear that the Church consists of the blood-bought and blood-washed redeemed ones of God, who are also called saints (sanctified ones). We see this in almost every epistle of Paul, and taking 1 Cor. 1:2 as an example, we read: "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called ["to be" in italics not found in the Greek text] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and ours". Here church = saints = sanctified ones = all who call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. Now, when we turn to Revelation 19:7,8, we find that the saints are none other than the wife of the Lamb, which is then applied as a metonymy to the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2,9,10), which is the home of the OT and NT saints (Heb. 12:23,24) where the saints are called "the general assembly and Church of the first born", as well as "the spirits of just men made perfect". Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and HIS WIFE hath made herself ready, and to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF SAINTS". Christ is the Lamb, His wife wears fine linen, and this fine linen is the righteousness of saints. The saints are the Church as already noted. And the righteousness of saints is that which is given to them by Christ -- imputed as well as imparted righteousness. If this were now applied to the gold and precious stones which constitute the "bricks and mortar" of the New Jerusalem, it would be pure foolishness. That is why the Holy Spirit says "the tabernacle of God is WITH MEN, AND HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM" (Rev. 21:3). The intimate relationship of God and His people is pictured as a marriage (which stands for intimate union) both in the OT and the NT, "and they shall be His people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Rev. 21:3). The tenderness, deep love and intimacy of this spiritual and supernatural "marriage" is described in human terms in the Song of Songs since mortal men cannot truly comprehend the realities of Heaven. There are three metaphors applied to the Church in Scripture -- Body, Bride (and Wife), and Building (or Temple). They reveal different aspects of the Church and it's relationship to Christ.

Ezra -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/9/2008 6:20:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Beanteaser A couple verses to consider are Matthew 22:30 and Galatians 4:26. Jesus Himself said those resurrected won't marry. I may not fully understand Galatians 4:26 fully, but what is clear is that the Jerusalem above is different than those below. Jesus was speaking about marriage in human terms. The marriage of God to His people is a metaphor for His intimate union with souls. If you cannot grasp this simple fact, then you will continue down this road of denial.

JesKlu -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/9/2008 6:26:21 PM)
Hello notmycity! In Jesus' blood, as a member of the body of Christ, I am married to Jesus. And for you men out there, who are also saved through Jesus' blood, and are also a member of the body of Christ, you too, are married to Jesus. Because together, we are saying "Come Lord Jesus, Come!" Your sister in Christ Jesus, Jessica

noitulover -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/9/2008 7:59:04 PM)
quote: philosophy and vain deceit, Nice try notmycity. The Ceremony in the upper room mirrors imbedded customs of Jewish culture. This is no accident. The shadows of Christ are deeply discerned and consumes Scripture. The Spiritual man looks for the deep things of God and knows they affirm truth. Layer after layer of mysteries are peeled back and parallel each other corroborating truth and discounting shallow face value literal superficial one dimensional dogma. An excellent example of deep mystery not evident on face values and superficial perusals is a study of the seven spirits of God. This is a body of knowledge which has never stopped growing. You brush off Scripture into a waste pail of philosophy and vain deceit calling the very lifestyle Jesus identified with trash.

notmycity -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/9/2008 8:30:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Beanteaser Jesus Himself said those resurrected won't marry.... And He said it in Matthew, Mark and Luke. Luke 20:34-36 34 And Jesus answering said unto them, THE CHILDREN OF THIS WORLD MARRY, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. Is the above literal or figurative? quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra Now, when we turn to Revelation 19:7,8, we find that the saints are none other than the wife of the Lamb.... ............. Christ is the Lamb, His wife wears fine linen, and this fine linen is the righteousness of saints. The saints are the Church as already noted. And the righteousness of saints is that which is given to them by Christ -- imputed as well as imparted righteousness. Please bear with my foolishness..... Are you now saying the Lamb is married to the fine linen? Again Ezra, God’s Word is clear here: Rev 21:9-10 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, AND SHEWED ME THAT GREAT CITY, THE HOLY JERUSALEM, DESCENDING OUT OF HEAVEN FROM GOD... No eisegesis needed. Just read His Word. Anyone care to address Song of Solomon as a “picture of Christ and His church bride”?

notmycity -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/9/2008 8:34:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: noitulover You brush off Scripture into a waste pail of philosophy and vain deceit calling the very lifestyle Jesus identified with trash. I won’t return your reviling. Please re-read my posts and you will see my emphasis on the Holy Scriptures alone. Thank you.

notmycity -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/9/2008 8:46:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JesKlu Hello notmycity! In Jesus' blood, as a member of the body of Christ, I am married to Jesus. And for you men out there, who are also saved through Jesus' blood, and are also a member of the body of Christ, you too, are married to Jesus. Because together, we are saying "Come Lord Jesus, Come!" Your sister in Christ Jesus, Jessica Married can simply mean “joined/assembled together”, so from that standpoint and definition of the word, this can be true for the believer. As a chef we used to use the term “marry” do describe the combination of various ingredients and flavors, which again would share the same definition. However..... The whole “church bride” teaching is contrary to God’s Word (As I have been explaining in earlier posts with scores of Scriptures). 1 Cor 16:13 13 Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men (IOW “act like men”), be strong. Jesus is my Savior, not my husband.

notmycity -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/9/2008 8:57:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra There are three metaphors applied to the Church in Scripture -- Body, Bride (and Wife), and Building (or Temple). They reveal different aspects of the Church and it's relationship to Christ. More circular reasoning? Body and building? Yes. Bride? Never. BTW, “building” is not the same as “temple” (as you try to conclude above). I double checked the Greek definitions. Hope this helps.

yod -> RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? (2/9/2008 9:14:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra This is a metaphor applied to the Church. It's obvious that you apply it...and can only find it in making metaphors...but there isn't a place where that is stated in the Bible. But we find it stated in many literal ways quite often in the Bible that the Bride is Israel. You are as "married" as Israel is but only through being in the Commonwealth of Israel. not the other way around.... By the way...the cloud at Mt Sinai represents the chupa or wedding covering. The marriage occured there.

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