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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/9/2008 11:09:28 PM
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noitulover
Posts: 95
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For you to throw the soul of Judaism into a waste basket of philosophy and vain deceit covered with a lid of puffed up the Bible is mis-translated Scriptures, is ok.
The shadow of Christ in the Old Testament are those very traditions you trash which reflect our nuptial status in the New Testament as Yod brought to everyone's attention. You greatly err notmycity and use the Scriptures with a disrespectful habit of proving the Bible is flawed. It is ok for you to cast a shadow of turning into the Light but the FACT THAT YOD HAS YOU OVER A BARREL means this is a shadow you fear and or abhor.
If Israel is a bride then we are also that bride. The New Testament illuminates what was shadowed and spiritually discerned believers embrace it.
There is something wrong with your attitude notmycity. Your introduction to this thread was not innocent. You have an agenda and casting doubt on the inerrant word of God is your version of revile.
I grant that you do indeed refer to the Scriptures. You leave them dissected, genetically modified, and cut to the bowels.
< Message edited by noitulover -- 2/10/2008 12:15:29 AM >
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/9/2008 11:43:10 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1767
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quote:
BTW, “building” is not the same as “temple” (as you try to conclude above). I double checked the Greek definitions.
Foolishness begets foolishness.
Regardless of Greek "definitions", no matter where you go in the world, a temple is a building, but now we have someone actually denying this very basic concept! If a temple is not a building, what it is? A rhinoceros?
The metaphor of the Church being a temple and every believer in the Church being a temple of God is firmly rooted in the NT. Paul says to the Christians at Corinth "Ye are God's building" (1 Cor. 3:9) and then he says to the same Corinthians (2 Cor. 6:16) "Ye are the temple of the living God". Since only a temple is a building, the two figures of speech are interchangeable and intermesh.
Paul expands on the doctrine of the Church as a building of God in Eph. 2:19-22, where he uses the terms "fellowcitizens with the saints", "household of God", "building" and "habitation of God". Now "habitation of God" is synonymous with temple, thus the building of God and His temple are both synonymous metaphors for the Church.
As to the Church being the Israel of God (where there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile), Paul calls believers "the commonwealth of Israel" (Eph. 2:12) where the Gentiles are "fellowheirs of the same Body" and "partakers of His promise in Christ by the Gospel" (Eph. 3:6).
The Church was a mystery hidden from the OT prophets and revealed only to the apostle Paul. And the Church is revealed as Christ's Body, Building, and Bride (who becomes the wife of the Lamb).
Yet we have a few (thank God) now coming up with all kinds of denials of the truth to support their untenable and bizarre theories. NMC, you are on the verge of going off the deep end. Beware of heresies.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/10/2008 12:18:05 AM
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noitulover
Posts: 95
Joined: 1/26/2008
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quote:
what it is? A rhinoceros?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahzahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah,
...breath, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Wow Ezra, Amazing post. You are blessed.
I like your humor too.
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/10/2008 1:16:45 AM
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yod
Posts: 121
Joined: 5/2/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
The Church was a mystery hidden from the OT prophets and revealed only to the apostle Paul.
the only mystery was how the gentiles were going to be added to Israel. It happened through them receiving the good news of the King of the Jews.
Eph 3:3 by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.
4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the (pre-existing) body (which is Israel), and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
once again, that should settle it if we can believe the Bible...
.
< Message edited by yod -- 2/10/2008 1:27:55 AM >
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/10/2008 1:48:08 AM
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noitulover
Posts: 95
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quote:
yod quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
The Church was a mystery hidden from the OT prophets and revealed only to the apostle Paul.
the only mystery was how the gentiles were going to be added to Israel.
quote:
Written by Ezra...As to the Church being the Israel of God (where there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile), Paul calls believers "the commonwealth of Israel" (Eph. 2:12) where the Gentiles are "fellowheirs of the same Body" and "partakers of His promise in Christ by the Gospel" (Eph. 3:6).
The Church was a mystery hidden from the OT prophets and revealed only to the apostle Paul. And the Church is revealed as Christ's Body, Building, and Bride (who becomes the wife of the Lamb).
All shadows are mysteries by their very nature, Yod.
All shadows require differing degrees of discernment.
Unless the shadows are illuminated by Christ then discernment is granted by the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures.
You Yod do not discern that a metaphor by its nature is mystery.
To the Old Testament, the Church as Christ's body is a shadow and a mystery. To the Old Testament, obviously when Jesus said He would raise this Temple in three days, not even the Apostles knew what Jesus meant. And that Messiah would be our husband was also a mystery.
In your evil manner Yod, you are calling Ezra a liar the same way you assign me to doctrine I do not believe. Ezra did not lie. How the gentiles were going to be added to Israel is one of many mysteries.
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/10/2008 2:01:00 AM
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yod
Posts: 121
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quote:
ORIGINAL: noitulover
All shadows are mysteries by their very nature, Yod.
a shadow can be a mystery but not all mysteries are shadows.
quote:
All shadows require differing degrees of discernment.
unless a "shadow" is explicitly explained in the scriptures, it is pure speculation of something that may, or may not be, implied.
quote:
Unless the shadows are illuminated by Christ then discernment is granted by the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures.
then you have a serious problem. The verse I have quoted for the 3rd time now is giving illumination. Please deal with this verse instead of casting your aspersions upon me.
Eph 3:3 by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.
4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the (pre-existing) body (which is Israel), and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
quote:
In your evil manner Yod, you are calling Ezra a liar the same way you assign me to doctrine I do not believe. Ezra did not lie.
would you please drop all the drama? I haven't called anyone a liar. I've only shown how your presumtive commentaries are mistaken.
quote:
How the gentiles were going to be added to Israel is one of many mysteries.
it was until Paul just explained it...
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/10/2008 3:08:53 AM
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noitulover
Posts: 95
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quote:
quote: by Yod
How the gentiles were going to be added to Israel is one of many mysteries.
it was until Paul just explained it...
...thank you, this puts your foot in your mouth. duh
Yod, you need to stop treating people this way. You acted like you were correcting Ezra when in effect you were restating a portion of what Ezra was talking about with your accusation.
You act like you are pointing out inconsistencies in my statements by you stating generic shallow minded generalities. I was being specific. Ezra was being specific. And you are using generalities to justify calling us liars.
As to the Church being the Israel of God including the gentiles Yod, this is only one of numerous mysteries revealed in the New Testament
Observe your shallow minded face value skimmed off the top erroneous statement you used to call Ezra a liar... the only mystery was how the gentiles were going to be added to Israel.
To say you are mistaken is an understatement. You were so intent on calling Ezra a liar that you cut off your nose to spite your face.
I have told you before and I tell you now, STOP IT
< Message edited by noitulover -- 2/10/2008 3:22:23 AM >
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/10/2008 3:16:26 AM
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noitulover
Posts: 95
Joined: 1/26/2008
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quote:
would you please drop all the drama? I haven't called anyone a liar. I've only shown how your presumtive commentaries are mistaken.
Making Ezra a liar wasn't about how my commentaries are mistaken. You add insult to injury.
Are you for real? Did you read what you said?
Yod, Leave me alone. If I am mistaken about anything let someone else do the honors. Leave me alone. Stop it.
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/10/2008 11:09:37 AM
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notmycity
Posts: 1178
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
BTW, “building” is not the same as “temple” (as you try to conclude above). I double checked the Greek definitions.
Foolishness begets foolishness.
Regardless of Greek "definitions", no matter where you go in the world, a temple is a building, but now we have someone actually denying this very basic concept! If a temple is not a building, what it is? A rhinoceros?
The metaphor of the Church being a temple and every believer in the Church being a temple of God is firmly rooted in the NT. Paul says to the Christians at Corinth "Ye are God's building" (1 Cor. 3:9) and then he says to the same Corinthians (2 Cor. 6:16) "Ye are the temple of the living God". Since only a temple is a building, the two figures of speech are interchangeable and intermesh.
Paul expands on the doctrine of the Church as a building of God in Eph. 2:19-22, where he uses the terms "fellowcitizens with the saints", "household of God", "building" and "habitation of God". Now "habitation of God" is synonymous with temple, thus the building of God and His temple are both synonymous metaphors for the Church.
As to the Church being the Israel of God (where there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile), Paul calls believers "the commonwealth of Israel" (Eph. 2:12) where the Gentiles are "fellowheirs of the same Body" and "partakers of His promise in Christ by the Gospel" (Eph. 3:6).
The Church was a mystery hidden from the OT prophets and revealed only to the apostle Paul. And the Church is revealed as Christ's Body, Building, and Bride (who becomes the wife of the Lamb).
Yet we have a few (thank God) now coming up with all kinds of denials of the truth to support their untenable and bizarre theories. NMC, you are on the verge of going off the deep end. Beware of heresies.
Ezra,
I will not return your reviling.
It appeared that you were saying earlier that the words “building” and “temple” were interchangeable. Hopefully we agree that they are not in Scripture. A temple is not always a building (“Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”), neither is a building always a temple. Forgive me if I misunderstood you.
Regarding 2 Cor 11:2 (and again, in context), a virgin (parthenos) is not always a bride, and a man (Greek=”aner”) is not always a husband. Even the KJV gets it wrong unfortunately, as it does in Prov 5:16: “Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, and rivers of waters in the streets.” It should say, “Let [NOT] thy fountains be dispersed abroad.”
Another place this otherwise reliable translation gets it wrong:
Rev 22:14
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(KJV)
The NAS is actually true to the TR Greek here:
Rev 22:14
14 Blessed are those who WASH THEIR ROBES, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
(NAS)
Jesus said, ... “For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required...”
Dan 12:4
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Our last generation has been given more than any previous one in the way of Scripture and tools with which to study (for me the Hebrew and Greek dictionaries are most helpful).
Some provide sound exegesis of Scripture while others practice exegetical prestidigitation (aka exegetical sleight-of -hand).
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/10/2008 11:30:36 AM
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notmycity
Posts: 1178
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“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” Jude 1:3-4
Now for an example:
Below is a quote from what I used to believe was a trustworthy commentary:
Scofield Reference Notes (1917 Edition)
Book Introduction - Song of Solomon
“Nowhere in Scripture does the unspiritual mind tread upon ground so mysterious and incomprehensible as in this book, while the saintliest men and women of the ages have found it a source of pure and exquisite delight. That the love of the divine Bridegroom should follow all the analogies of the marriage relation seems evil only to minds so ascetic that martial desire itself seems to them unholy.
The interpretation is twofold: Primarily, the book is the expression of pure marital love as ordained of God in creation, and the vindication of that love as against both asceticism and lust--the two profanations of the holiness of marriage. The secondary and larger interpretation is of Christ, the Son and His heavenly bride, the Church...”
Now for some quotes from SOS:
Song 1:13
13 A bundle of myrrh is my wellbeloved unto me; he shall lie all night betwixt my breasts.
(KJV)
Song 3:1
1 By night on my bed I sought him whom my soul loveth: I sought him, but I found him not.
(KJV)
Song 7:8-12
8 I said, I will go up to the palm tree, I will take hold of the boughs thereof: now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine, and the smell of thy nose like apples;
9 And the roof of thy mouth like the best wine for my beloved, that goeth down sweetly, causing the lips of those that are asleep to speak.
10 I am my beloved's, and his desire is toward me.
11 Come, my beloved, let us go forth into the field; let us lodge in the villages.
12 Let us get up early to the vineyards; let us see if the vine flourish, whether the tender grape appear, and the pomegranates bud forth: there will I give thee my loves.
(KJV)
Song 4:16
16 Awake, O north wind; and come, thou south; blow upon my garden, that the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits.
(KJV)
Please compare with:
Prov 5:15-19
15 Drink water from your own cistern, and running water from your own well.
16 Should your fountains be dispersed abroad, streams of water in the streets?
17 Let them be only your own, and not for strangers with you.
18 Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice with the wife of your youth.
19 As a loving deer and a graceful doe, let her breasts satisfy you at all times; and always be enraptured with her love.
(NKJ)
Eccl 9:9
9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
(KJV)
Heb 13:4
4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
(KJV)
“Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled”, and all Scripture above applies wonderfully, beautifully and joyfully to a lawful marriage between one husband and his one wife. To try to say that the conjugal love mentioned in Scripture is comparable to Christ and the church is nothing short of “turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness”.
How did Christ demonstrate His love for His church?
Matt 20:28
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
(KJV)
Luke 22:19-20
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
(KJV)
John 15:13-15
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
(KJV)
What....greater than marital love? Absolutely, if we BELIEVE what Jesus said above.
“Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends...”
Oh how I thank and praise my Savior for THAT love!
And......
Oh what an unthinkable ADDED privilege to be a beloved “friend of the Bridegroom” !
Come quickly Lord Jesus my King of kings!
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/10/2008 1:47:15 PM
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noitulover
Posts: 95
Joined: 1/26/2008
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quote:
Ezra,
I will not return your reviling.
It appeared that you were saying earlier that the words “building” and “temple” were interchangeable. Hopefully we agree that they are not in Scripture. ...
Is it just me or are we witnessing the example of a double mind?
A temple is not always a building (“Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”), neither is a building always a temple. Forgive me if I misunderstood you.
...the words “building” and “temple” were interchangeable. Hopefully we agree that they are not in Scripture...I will not return your reviling.
Am I missing something, like a cornerstone?
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/10/2008 2:30:55 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 941
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I showed you scripture in earlier however it was dismissed as not being from the New Testament! We must understand that when the NT was being lived and written, the TaNaKH was considered the Scriptures. Paul attests to this in II Tim 3:15-16, I Tim. 5:18, Gal. 3:22, Rom. 10:11, Rom. 4:3, 9:17...
The word we call church (ecclesia) is Israel or those who have been grafted into to the vine (Israel). Most believers read the NT and accept it as "more inspired or relevant than" the OT. However, the earlier believers had it the other way around. Their works addressed key issues and taught the doctrines embedded in the TaNaKH. I've showed before that Israel was YHWH's bride and if we are blood-bought, born again believers, we are indeed Israel.
Read Heb. 8:8, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Ezekiel where it speaks of the new heart and new spirit. It will tell you that the covenant is with the "house of Judah and the house of Israel." We must understand this. Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:11-13
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Yod and others have been trying to explain Hebraic customs of marriage, engagement etc., however you probably dismiss it as "fables or vain traditions of men." It's important to understand the language and customs of the people of the Bible in order to arrive at a more complete, better understanding of what's wrote. To dismiss the "jewishness" of the Messiah and His Apostles is to take away from the heritage of our faith. Remember CONTEXT, CONTEXT and CONTEXT is crucial.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/10/2008 3:13:56 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1178
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
.....It's important to understand the language and customs of the people of the Bible in order to arrive at a more complete, better understanding of what's wrote....
God is not a respecter of persons.
Acts 10:34
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
(KJV)
Rom 10:12
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
(KJV)
Gal 3:28
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
(KJV)
Col 3:9-11
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
(KJV)
As for understanding “Jewish customs” I may not have revealed previously that I am a Jew by birth and have been taught Jewish customs and traditions as a child. They are not God’s Word, nor do they override God’s Word.
Jesus rebuked the pharisees for this practice:
Mark 7:6-7
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/10/2008 3:26:55 PM
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LBolt
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You are greatly misunderstanding my point. If I were writing a film about the 1960's in America, I would need to understand what was going on then. The mindset of the people, the politics, the racism and even the lingo of the time of that period in order to convey this to the audience. You sound like a robot spewing off a bunch of scriptures which totally irrelevant to the point I made. I was not responding as if God is impartial. Which is what I detect you think. Understanding the context and lingo of the Bible will greatly enhance our understanding of it, thereby giving us a better way to apply it's truths to our life.
_______________________________________
There I go talking this Torah stuff!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/10/2008 4:04:36 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2342
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
As for understanding “Jewish customs” I may not have revealed previously that I am a Jew by birth and have been taught Jewish customs and traditions as a child.
Really? i would have never guessed,not in a million years.
Thanks for sharing. Pretty humbling to know (I admit, i occasionally fall into a sin of "jewish pride";)
not trying to insult, God forbid - I also have my moments of sheer stupidity on occasion too, brother.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/10/2008 4:10:53 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2342
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
A wife is firstly a bride, and at her marriage she becomes the wife. This is a metaphor applied to the Church.
First of all, we must be crystal clear that the Church consists of the blood-bought and blood-washed redeemed ones of God, who are also called saints (sanctified ones). We see this in almost every epistle of Paul, and taking 1 Cor. 1:2 as an example, we read:
"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called ["to be" in italics not found in the Greek text] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and ours".
Here church = saints = sanctified ones = all who call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord.
Now, when we turn to Revelation 19:7,8, we find that the saints are none other than the wife of the Lamb, which is then applied as a metonymy to the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2,9,10), which is the home of the OT and NT saints (Heb. 12:23,24) where the saints are called "the general assembly and Church of the first born", as well as "the spirits of just men made perfect".
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and HIS WIFE hath made herself ready, and to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF SAINTS".
Christ is the Lamb, His wife wears fine linen, and this fine linen is the righteousness of saints. The saints are the Church as already noted. And the righteousness of saints is that which is given to them by Christ -- imputed as well as imparted righteousness.
If this were now applied to the gold and precious stones which constitute the "bricks and mortar" of the New Jerusalem, it would be pure foolishness. That is why the Holy Spirit says "the tabernacle of God is WITH MEN, AND HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM" (Rev. 21:3).
The intimate relationship of God and His people is pictured as a marriage (which stands for intimate union) both in the OT and the NT, "and they shall be His people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Rev. 21:3). The tenderness, deep love and intimacy of this spiritual and supernatural "marriage" is described in human terms in the Song of Songs since mortal men cannot truly comprehend the realities of Heaven.
There are three metaphors applied to the Church in Scripture -- Body, Bride (and Wife), and Building (or Temple). They reveal different aspects of the Church and it's relationship to Christ.
Well said, Ezra.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/10/2008 4:15:59 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 941
Joined: 11/30/2007
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quote:
As for understanding “Jewish customs” I may not have revealed previously that I am a Jew by birth and have been taught Jewish customs and traditions as a child. They are not God’s Word, nor do they override God’s Word.
Then you should know that I'm not referring to Pharisaic/Rabbinic Oral Law. You rights, any custom that did not originate from the written word of God does not have to be followed. However, we argued that Israel is the bride of Christ seeing the cultural customs of 1st and 2nd Temple period. The phraseology that Christ uses that various ones have pointed out bear striking resemblances. Why? It was the customs of the times of which He would intimately familiar with.
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/11/2008 10:32:35 AM
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notmycity
Posts: 1178
Status: offline
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A few weeks back, a professing brother described how he views the Lord’s supper:
“I remember the Lord's supper until he returns LIKE ANY BRIDE WOULD REMEMBER THE COVENANT CUP OF HER PURCHASE UNTIL THAT DAY.”
Aside from the above errant view and belief, this gent clearly espouses bride mysticism.
What makes the above quote especially disturbing is knowing the following:
Matt 26:27-28
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(KJV)
Mark 14:23-24
23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
(KJV)
Luke 22:20
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
(KJV)
1 Cor 10:15-16
15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
(KJV)
1 Cor 11:25-26
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
(KJV)
Absolutely NOWHERE in Scripture is there any comparison of the Lord’s supper to a bride’s “covenant cup”.
Does anyone see the extreme danger inherent with the opening quote of this post?
1 Cor 11:26-29
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For HE THAT EATETH AND DRINKETH UNWORTHILY, EATETH AND DRINKETH DAMNATION TO HIMSELF, not discerning the Lord's body.
(KJV)
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<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/11/2008 10:36:11 AM
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notmycity
Posts: 1178
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
...The phraseology that Christ uses that various ones have pointed out bear striking resemblances....
Can you please show me in Scripture this “phraseology” that you speak of (Naming the church as a bride)? Again, I’ve searched and searched and it just isn’t there as you say it is.
Thank you.
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<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/11/2008 11:55:49 AM
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JoToP
Posts: 691
Status: offline
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quote:
Are you speaking about the same church that killed everyone who disagreed with them? That is one way to silence the truth...but it isn't the "christian" way, imo
Non sequitur. It wouldn’t matter if what you are saying were true to the extreme (and, BTW, your painting the Church as if all she ever did was kill those who disagree with her is, for lack of a better term, a calumnious misrepresentation.) What matters is what Christ has said of the Church. That seals the matter quite nicely. Or have you forgotten that the Jehovah God continued to call Old Covenant Israel his bride even while she was murdering her own prophets? You could not say, as you subsequently do, not by the “logic” you have presented here, that Israel is the Bride if you treated the history of Israel from Old Testament (Taanach) record (not “secular” historical, mind) or from the assessment of Christ in Matt. 23 as you attempt to treat the history of the Church, could you? I know that was a very complex sentence, but read it carefully to see the ridiculousness of your quote above. Put simply, what’s good for the goose ain’t good for the gander, is it?
quote:
For millennia the institution known as the church has spiritually re-applied verses to itself which were understood by the Apostles of the original assembly (the faithful jewish remant) to be peculiar to Israel alone. This is pure arrogance!
Unless you are wrong (which you are) about what the Apostles understood. Then the arrogance turns full tilt.
quote:
The word "church" does not appear in the original language of the bible.
Neither does the word “God”. It is an English translation.
quote:
It is an english translation
Translation: a word for word exchange from one language to another.
quote:
which implies a theological intent that does not exist in the original writings.
So, you’re saying we should never translate?
quote:
Tyndale was burned at the stake for refusing to translate "kahal" and "ecclesia" and "synagoge" as church.
Your read some strange history books. Tyndale was burned at the stake for translating. For the record, I’m an historian.
quote:
The Puritans were persecuted for rejecting that translation in the King James and had to escape to America.
There go those strange interpretations of history again. Wonder if there is an agenda behind YOUR interpretations.
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The Body and Bride of Messiah is the faithful remnant of Israel and those gentiles/nations who are joined to them. This is pervasive and obvious throughout scripture yet a theological device formed in prejudice against jews has hidden it from far too many of His Body.
A. This statement is so unbiblical its hilarious.
B. I don’t know about everybody else, but I frankly am weary to the bone of the spurious cry of anti-semitism. And as long as you propose to argue from pure hubris, I will be pleased to vacate your audience and leave you screaming on your lone stage.
quote:
Ephesians chapters 2 & 3 state quite clearly that we are "fellow heirs" with them, the faithful jewish remnant who was awaiting Yeshua for 3 millenia before we ever heard of Moses.
Correction. There was not a Jew in this world before about 1600 B.C. Before that, there was nothing but “gentiles” waiting for the coming of Christ.
quote:
Eph 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
Note the phrase “in Christ”. Small phrase with earth shaking significance. It basically means the the entirety of an old order has been abolished and a new order under a New Covenant has arisen in its place in which Jew and Gentile are now one, not one following the other, but one and the same— IN CHRIST. It is not Jew or Gentile that defines the commonwealth, it is God in Christ through the Spirit. We all hold fast to the hem of HIS garment, not to one another’s.
quote:
That should settle it. ISRAEL is the Bride and we are joined to them through faith in the King of the Jews
Sorry. There is only one mediator between God and Men, the Man Christ Jesus. I don’t come to God through Jews. I come to God through Jesus.
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And if you don't like THAT answer, I have more in
J  T P's
The Blogge
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/11/2008 12:05:19 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1178
Status: offline
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Can we stay with the OP subject please?
Thank you.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/12/2008 4:10:22 AM
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kisstheson
Posts: 965
Joined: 5/1/2006
From: AOL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: JoToP
...The Church is called... the Bride....
To help, please look up the words bride, bridegroom and espoused in Scripture.
Again, please show us that “...the Church is called... the Bride..” in Scripture.
It is nowhere in Scripture.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
....In the New Testament, Christ, the Bridegroom, has sacrificially and lovingly chosen the church to be His bride (Ephesians 5:25-27)....
Ephesians 5:22-6:9 addresses the following relationships:
-Husbands and wives.
-Children and parents.
-Servants and masters.
NOWHERE IS THE CHURCH EVER CALLED “THE BRIDE”. IT IS CALLED THE “BODY”.
Please note:
Eph 1:22-23
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
(KJV)
Eph 2:16
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
(KJV)
Eph 3:6
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
(KJV)
Eph 4:4
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
(KJV)
Eph 4:11-12
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(KJV)
Eph 4:15-16
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
(KJV)
Eph 5:23
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
(KJV)
Eph 5:30
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
(KJV)
It appears that I’m repeating the same teaching here, so I would ask that those who choose to participate would read ALL of the Scriptures I have provided on this OP before engaging me in further conversation.
Thank you.
Oh come on...Jesus Himself said He is the Bridegroom...
Mark 2:
18Now John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting. Some people came and asked Jesus, "How is it that John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees are fasting, but yours are not?"
19Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom fast while he is with them? They cannot, so long as they have him with them. 20But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them, and on that day they will fast.
Also in the parable of the ten virgins He calls Himself the Bridegroom.
2 Cor. 11:2 ...I arranged for you to marry Christ...
That's what a bride does. She gets married.
Maybe He's not your Bridegroom but He certainly is mine, thank you very much.
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This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/12/2008 9:28:54 AM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 297
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
Oh come on...Jesus Himself said He is the Bridegroom...
Mark 2:
18Now John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting. Some people came and asked Jesus, "How is it that John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees are fasting, but yours are not?"
19Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom fast while he is with them? They cannot, so long as they have him with them. 20But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them, and on that day they will fast.
Also in the parable of the ten virgins He calls Himself the Bridegroom.
2 Cor. 11:2 ...I arranged for you to marry Christ...
That's what a bride does. She gets married.
Maybe He's not your Bridegroom but He certainly is mine, thank you very much.
The Bride isn't mentioned at all in the Mark 2 Passage you mentioned. We must also conclude that the disciples are not part of the bride at all since they are called "guests."
Also, do you literally think Paul has the ability to espouse, betroth, or arrange a wife for Jesus?
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