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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/14/2008 11:28:32 PM
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kisstheson
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
This is from the New king James version:
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
Yes, and that’s different from your earlier post. Please notice “husband” does not occur in the above.
Also, please check the Greek on the word “married” above (“ginomai”) and compare with the Greek word “gameo” (Strong’s # 1060) which means “ to wed”.
Interesting that we find “gameo” used below:
Mark 12:25
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry (“gameo”), nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Married, to wed, husband, all the same thing. whatever..I can't continue this discussion because it makes me too aggravated and upset.
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/16/2008 10:07:10 AM
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notmycity
Posts: 1165
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
This is from the New king James version:
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
Yes, and that’s different from your earlier post. Please notice “husband” does not occur in the above.
Also, please check the Greek on the word “married” above (“ginomai”) and compare with the Greek word “gameo” (Strong’s # 1060) which means “ to wed”.
Interesting that we find “gameo” used below:
Mark 12:25
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry (“gameo”), nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Married, to wed, husband, all the same thing. whatever..I can't continue this discussion because it makes me too aggravated and upset.
Make the choice to obey God's Word as opposed to man's tradition and philosophy and you will find yourself at peace.
The words are different in the Greek, so no, they are not "the same thing", any more thsn an apple and an orange are the same.
Thank you.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/18/2008 10:54:15 AM
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yod
Posts: 77
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
Oh so you're saying that only Jews or messianics are the Bride? Is that correct?
The Bride is Israel formed of the jewish remnant and all those gentiles who are joined to them. No way around it....You guys can keep ignoring the literal verses that say that and desparately look for verses which you think imply it...but it doesn't change the facts.
The Bride is not and will never be a separate institution known as the "church"
quote:
Well I disagree...Pauls letter was written to the Romans...gentile christians:
The book of Romans was written to the assembly of the saints at Rome. Yes, there were some gentiles there but it was very much a jewish congregation and Paul speaks specifically to the jews in the assembly of Rome in Chapters 1, 2, 3
He then goes on to explain why the gentiles shouldn't be arrogant against the "natural branches".
It is their tree we have been grafted into...not the other way around. Israel is the Bride.
There is no such thing as "the church" in the Bible. That is an error of translation into english.
< Message edited by yod -- 2/18/2008 11:01:47 AM >
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/18/2008 11:04:45 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6429
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
Jimbo,
I won’t return your reviling.
Expressing truth in love is not reviling. You choose to ignore scripture and instruction from elders and those who'd like to see you rejoin 99% of believers.
quote:
Jimbo, prove to me that the New Jerusalem isn't the Lamb's wife....I dare you! If you can't, recant your statement. Fair deal?
Simply read the posts not Topher's or your own.
Thank you,
Jimbo
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/19/2008 9:32:28 AM
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Ps103
Posts: 11745
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Topher, what does this mean?
quote:
Ephesians 5
22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
[edited to embolden the salient part]
< Message edited by Ps103 -- 2/19/2008 9:45:17 AM >
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/19/2008 10:29:53 AM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 255
Joined: 6/23/2005
From: Minnesota
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
Jimbo, prove to me that the New Jerusalem isn't the Lamb's wife....I dare you! If you can't, recant your statement. Fair deal?
Simply read the posts not Topher's or your own.
Thank you,
Jimbo
I have already read all of the posts in thread. Have you read the posts that have addressed and even refuted the popular claims?
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/19/2008 10:33:12 AM
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Beanteaser
Posts: 255
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JoToP
Bean and Notmy,
quote:
Jimbo, prove to me that the New Jerusalem isn't the Lamb's wife....I dare you! If you can't, recant your statement. Fair deal?
It is the Lamb's wife. And its pretty obvious that the New, heavenly Jerusalem is the church. Verse 14.
Are you talking about Revelation 21:14? Explain to me why this is "obvious" proof that the New Jerusalem is the same as the church. Are the 12 disciples the church? That doesn't even make sense. Please clarify your view. Thanks!
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/19/2008 10:55:01 AM
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notmycity
Posts: 1165
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
Topher, what does this mean?
quote:
Ephesians 5
22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
[edited to embolden the salient part]
In proper context, and with the knowledge that there were no chapter breaks, Ephesians 5:22 to 6:9 provides instruction for the following relationships:
• Husbands and wives
• Children and parents
• Servants and masters
Many (actually most) have construed a portion of Ephesians 5 to support bridal mysticism, yet at least nine times the church is called the “body” in Ephesians, including two times in chapter 5.
I hope this helps.
Thank you.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/19/2008 11:00:41 AM
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Ps103
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In marriage, does the bride not become one flesh with the husband?
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/19/2008 11:12:51 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6429
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
Jimbo, prove to me that the New Jerusalem isn't the Lamb's wife....I dare you! If you can't, recant your statement. Fair deal?
Simply read the posts not Topher's or your own.
Thank you,
Jimbo
I have already read all of the posts in thread. Have you read the posts that have addressed and even refuted the popular claims?
I wouldn't trade a red rubber ball for popular claims OR the fantasies of the unlearned.
The Bible, however and despite the Judaistic philosophies in this thread, teaches that the Church, the corporate body of the redeemed in Jesus, is the Bride of Christ.
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/19/2008 11:30:25 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 999
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What do you mean "Judaistic philosophies"?
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/19/2008 11:37:28 AM
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notmycity
Posts: 1165
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
In marriage, does the bride not become one flesh with the husband?
Yes, but nowhere in this passage is the church called Christ’s bride. Any analogy is just that - an analogy.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/19/2008 12:07:04 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
What do you mean "Judaistic philosophies"?
That the Bride of Christ is a place, a thing, a city, the new Jerusalem instead of the living, breathing corporate body of believers.
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/19/2008 12:12:42 PM
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JoToP
Posts: 688
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
quote:
ORIGINAL: JoToP
Bean and Notmy,
quote:
Jimbo, prove to me that the New Jerusalem isn't the Lamb's wife....I dare you! If you can't, recant your statement. Fair deal?
It is the Lamb's wife. And its pretty obvious that the New, heavenly Jerusalem is the church. Verse 14.
Are you talking about Revelation 21:14? Explain to me why this is "obvious" proof that the New Jerusalem is the same as the church. Are the 12 disciples the church? That doesn't even make sense. Please clarify your view. Thanks!
The stones are the foundation of the city. The names of the apostles are on the foundation stones. The only commentaries in Scripture that calls apostles foundations are related to the church. Ephes. 2:19-22 "So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit."
Jesus, speaking to Peter as representative of the apostles says the same, Matthew 16:18 "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Paul takes this very seriously when he declares in Galatians 1:8 "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed."
Meaning that it was to the apostles that the Gospel, the power of God to salvation, was given which is the foundation of Christianity. Our belief in the Gospel is based upon their testimony which is recorded in Scripture, which is where this all goes to.
Jerusalem is seen as the church in Hebrews 12:22-24 "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel."
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And if you don't like THAT answer, I have more in
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/19/2008 12:40:52 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1165
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Beanteaser
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
The Bible........teaches that the Church, the corporate body of the redeemed in Jesus, is the Bride of Christ.
So you say, and yet you have provided no Scripture to support your belief.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/19/2008 12:43:36 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6429
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
The Bible........teaches that the Church, the corporate body of the redeemed in Jesus, is the Bride of Christ.
So you say, and yet you have provided no Scripture to support your belief.
So you say otherwise and yet no Scripture supports your belief.
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/19/2008 12:52:01 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 999
Joined: 11/30/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
What do you mean "Judaistic philosophies"?
That the Bride of Christ is a place, a thing, a city, the new Jerusalem instead of the living, breathing corporate body of believers.
Thanks, I agree
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/19/2008 1:31:53 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1165
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
The Bible........teaches that the Church, the corporate body of the redeemed in Jesus, is the Bride of Christ.
So you say, and yet you have provided no Scripture to support your belief.
So you say otherwise and yet no Scripture supports your belief.
I’ve provided scores of references on this thread, including Revelation 21, the one place in Scripture that identifies “the bride, the Lamb’s wife”.
When you’re ready to provide Scripture, I’ll respond to your future posts if applicable.
Thanks again.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/19/2008 5:44:05 PM
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Sammy_S
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From: Brampton,Ontario
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I will like to add something..I can't stand the comments about how the Church or the Bride of Christ being very comparable to the World,how the church has failed and soo on..
The fact is that what many believe to be the Church is not the Church.The Church is full of sin but itis holy and blameless before the Lord.The Church is as strong as it has always been.The difference is that people think that the Church is a denomination or just Churches.The church is just the true true people of God.
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/19/2008 5:51:27 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6429
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
I’ve provided scores of references on this thread, including Revelation 21, the one place in Scripture that identifies “the bride, the Lamb’s wife”.
Can I be frank? You have provided scores of posts of blather, brushing aside any enlightenment but some strange concept you seem to have concoted out of thin air and somehow expect the Church Universal to bow in wonder at your feet.
You are trying to teach when you really and truly need to learn.
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/20/2008 11:07:57 AM
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notmycity
Posts: 1165
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Rather than respond to some recent reviling, I’ve chosen instead to critique some “commentaries”, starting with Matthew Henry:
Revelation 21:9-27 (from Matthew Henry's Commentary)
“III. The subject-matter of the vision-- the bride, the Lamb's wife (v. 10); that is, the church of God in her glorious, perfect, triumphant state, under the resemblance of Jerusalem, having the glory of God shining in its lustre, as uxor splendit radiis mariti-- the bride comely through the comeliness put on her by her husband; glorious in her relation to Christ, in his image now perfected in her, and in his favour shining upon her. And now we have a large description of the church triumphant under the emblem of a city, far exceeding in riches and splendour all the cities of this world; and this new Jerusalem is here represented to us both in the exterior and the interior part of it.”
Please note here the phrase, “The subject-matter of the vision-- the bride, the Lamb's wife (v. 10); that is, the church of God...”
The phrase “church of God” does occur several times in the Scripture, but nowhere does it occur in conjunction with the only written account of “the bride, the Lamb’s wife”.
Further more, “ekklesia” (Greek for church) is not used in conjunction with the account of “the bride”.
Henry has no Scriptural basis for his above quote. I’ve looked very hard for evidence to support his theory, but it simply does not exist in Scripture.
Life’s been a bit more demanding than usual, so please forgive me if I don’t frequent this page as much in the coming days.
Please be like the Berean’s and look these things up for yourself.
“Thanks for watching”.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Church as the so-called bride of Christ? - 2/20/2008 11:44:59 AM
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JoToP
Posts: 688
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quote:
Further more, “ekklesia” (Greek for church) is not used in conjunction with the account of “the bride”.
That's because the Bible is not a dictionary, its a revelation, which means that it unfolds in meaning. Matthew Henry understood this. You, apparently, do not. But since you insist on bringing in the term "ekklesia", the LXX uses the word for the Hebrew version of the word "congregation" and the various writers of the New Testament were very familiar with the LXX. To them, the religious system of the Old Covenant was the root of the New Covenant church. They, like Matthew Henry (actually MH follows the apostolic division of the word of truth), understood the unfolding revelation of the Church and did not begin their study of ecclesiology from the New Testament. To them, the Church began when Eve was created. Adam and Eve together were the earliest church. That is the seed of the eccesiological revelation. The good student of Scripture will "study to show [him/her]self approved by watching how God develops the church from Genesis to Revelation, rather than starting with Revelation and going nowhere.
_____________________________
And if you don't like THAT answer, I have more in
J T P's
The Blogge
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