RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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rcjames -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/31/2008 8:47:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PureLight
Point of the matter is, you're not going to find a gay man who -chose- to have those feelings, and if you do, I'd like to meet them because I'd have to tell them it was a darn stupid decision. Why would you -choose- to pick a lifestyle that could get you shunned, made an outcast, killed in some places?


Why does anyone chose to sin and live a life outside of God? Scripture says

(Joh 3:19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

You sem to be focucing on the wrong thing here; Jesus says

(Mat 10:28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

That is what folks who reject Christ and chose to live in sin, including homosexuals, should be worried about; being destroyed body and soul in hell.

Thanks
RC



WesP -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/31/2008 2:02:38 PM)

quote:

Why would you -choose- to pick a lifestyle that could get you shunned, made an outcast, killed in some places?


Let's take a quick jaunt back to the OT real quick, shall we? In Leviticus, people were stoned for committing adultery, yet they still did it. The same goes for homosexuality. Fast forward to today. First degree murder can result in the death penalty. People still commit these murders. So....people choose to do what they want to do. Everything you do is a choice.



Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/31/2008 4:09:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WesP

Everything you do is a choice.

Wesp,
Sometimes I wonder if this is really as true as it sounds.

What about the decisions we make as children in order to survive childhood? (For the sake of this discussion, I am talking about decisions relating to: gender identity, intimacy, love, relationship, sex, and even sexual identity.) Decisions that are carried into adult life.

As children we receive messages from the world around us, especially our parents and extended family as to what is appropriate, and what is not appropriate. From those messages, and the way they are delivered, we respond by forming some concept of ourselves. What if those messages, and the way they are delivered, are confusing and inappropriate?



WesP -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/1/2008 12:51:35 PM)

quote:

What if those messages, and the way they are delivered, are confusing and inappropriate?


That encourages bad choices, but it does not negate choices. That is one of the reasons we are obliged to live the Great Commision. We need to make sure everyone knows that they can choose Jesus and eternal life. Knowledge brings rewards; knowledge (and acceptance) of Christ's sacrifice is eternal reward.



zamdad -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/1/2008 1:38:47 PM)

quote:

As children we receive messages from the world around us, especially our parents and extended family as to what is appropriate, and what is not appropriate. From those messages, and the way they are delivered, we respond by forming some concept of ourselves. What if those messages, and the way they are delivered, are confusing and inappropriate?


So, in other words, it's environment that brings about our sexual identity? We're not born that way?

We live in a culture saturated with sexual messages. Those mesages become increasingly more confusing as they conflict with the values God has written on our heart. Having worked in a treatment capacity with people convicted of sex crimes, digging into the backgrounds of nearly all of them reveals that they received some very inappropriate messages during their upbringing.

When people choose to engage in behavior that they know is against the law God has written on their hearts, they're miserable. They can justify their behavior, thoughts and attitudes all they want and seek acceptance from the larger population, but the fact remains they they are going to remain in a continual state of emotional turmoil because they are living contrary to what they know to be right. So, in essence, yes it is a choice.



Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/1/2008 2:39:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WesP

quote:

What if those messages, and the way they are delivered, are confusing and inappropriate?


That encourages bad choices, but it does not negate choices. That is one of the reasons we are obliged to live the Great Commision. We need to make sure everyone knows that they can choose Jesus and eternal life. Knowledge brings rewards; knowledge (and acceptance) of Christ's sacrifice is eternal reward.

How does a child, a baby make such a choice if he/she has few, if any role model around, or anyone to share with them knowledge of Christ?



WesP -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/1/2008 2:49:11 PM)

quote:

How does a child, a baby make such a choice if he/she has few, if any role model around, or anyone to share with them knowledge of Christ?


Again, I said that bad choices are probable in that situation. However, as we grow up we realize what hurts others and what hurts us. It would behoove people to think on that before making decisions. That would be a good first step in realizing that there is more to life than what we can see. Evangelism is the best tool to make people aware of God and His sacrifice (assuming that the evangelists are living the example as well).



Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/1/2008 3:13:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zamdad

quote:

As children we receive messages from the world around us, especially our parents and extended family as to what is appropriate, and what is not appropriate. From those messages, and the way they are delivered, we respond by forming some concept of ourselves. What if those messages, and the way they are delivered, are confusing and inappropriate?


So, in other words, it's environment that brings about our sexual identity? We're not born that way?

We live in a culture saturated with sexual messages. Those mesages become increasingly more confusing as they conflict with the values God has written on our heart. Having worked in a treatment capacity with people convicted of sex crimes, digging into the backgrounds of nearly all of them reveals that they received some very inappropriate messages during their upbringing.

When people choose to engage in behavior that they know is against the law God has written on their hearts, they're miserable. They can justify their behavior, thoughts and attitudes all they want and seek acceptance from the larger population, but the fact remains they they are going to remain in a continual state of emotional turmoil because they are living contrary to what they know to be right. So, in essence, yes it is a choice.

I was speaking of choices we make as little children 1-4 years old. Choices as to who we see ourselves as in light of/ because of/ despite of our early environment.

I believe those choices are based on our desire/ need to survive that early environment more so than the rightness or wrongness of those decisions, because without knowledge of right and wrong little children are unable to make proper decisions.

Having said that, let me say that I agree with you that God has written His laws on our hearts. Even as little children (babies) we may be aware of God's laws (more so than when we are adults). The conflict starts when we (our minds) feel we/it must decide between those laws and ideals and the laws and ideals we learn from our environment/parents/ extended family in order to become the person we feel God intended us to be. In some respects the decision may be between life and death. Does a little child seek compromise and choose life in order to one day live in accordance with God's laws, or does he seek a way out of life so he does not compromise those laws?

Yes, because of my background, I do see environment as being very important in the way we view ourselves sexually. The culture, in turn, serves to reinforce/ further confuse our views of what is acceptable/ unacceptable behavior in regard to sexual issues.

As we grow up we may question our childhood decisions and view in order to either seek to change them, or find ways to justify them and the behaviours we engage in.

Maybe it is not so much the question of how the decisions we make affect our life, but accountability/ responsibility for those decisions, especially the decisions that we make as little children, or even babies. The decisions that tend to govern the way we live the rest of our lives and decisions.



rcjames -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/1/2008 3:30:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3
I was speaking of choices we make as little children 1-4 years old. Choices as to who we see ourselves as in light of/ because of/ despite of our early environment.

I believe those choices are based on our desire/ need to survive that early environment more so than the rightness or wrongness of those decisions, because without knowledge of right and wrong little children are unable to make proper decisions.


Do I understand you to be promoting that 1-4 year olds make dicisions on having homosexual sex?

That is freaky.

Thanks
RC



PureLight -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/1/2008 10:17:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: PureLight
Point of the matter is, you're not going to find a gay man who -chose- to have those feelings, and if you do, I'd like to meet them because I'd have to tell them it was a darn stupid decision. Why would you -choose- to pick a lifestyle that could get you shunned, made an outcast, killed in some places?


Why does anyone chose to sin and live a life outside of God? Scripture says

(Joh 3:19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

You sem to be focucing on the wrong thing here; Jesus says

(Mat 10:28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

That is what folks who reject Christ and chose to live in sin, including homosexuals, should be worried about; being destroyed body and soul in hell.

Thanks
RC


I apologize, I was in the mindset of when I was still living in that sin. Still a bit emotional, I guess [:D]

To me, I just figure that most people don't know what exactly will happen even if they feel they're a "good person" so I go from that perspective, although I'm perfectly aware that that worldview isn't true.

I certainly didn't want to head into a church, I was thinking the wrong things [:D]



Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/2/2008 12:32:29 AM)

rcjames,
I am not advocating, or even saying that 1-4 year olds make such specific decisions. I think that 1-4 years olds make general decisions, about gender, identity, intimacy, relationships, and even sex based on their environment.

For example, a woman gives birth to a boy within the one year period she and her husband have agreed to stay married even though she has made it clear to the man that the only reason why she married him was to get out from under her dominating father. A father who had made it clear to her that he wished she was born a boy. A father who also caused her to be an only child because he did not want to risk any more second rate girl off-spring into his life.

The boy is born with some idea that his mother neither loves him or wants him. In fact his mother gives him over to her parents to raise. However, the boy ends up spending almost equal amounts of time with his mother as he does with his grandmother. He spends enough time with his mother to learn that even though she hates sex, and has a low opinion of men she is not above using men and sex as she carries on affairs in the attic apartment she and her husband live in above her parents. One of her affairs resulting in the birth of another son.

His parents stay married even though they almost daily argue about their sexual incapatability, among other things like money, and her parents.

The boy also spends enough time with his mother, during these first four years for his mother to convince him that he is responsible for trapping her into a life she never wanted, but must live.

Because the boy feels he is not wanted or loved he seeks love where he can find it, but most especially from his mother. Then he begins striving to get and settle for any thing resembling love from her ANYWAY he can for as long as he can. To this extent he also strives to figure out what kind of man his mother would like him to be by guarding himself from becoming the domineering kind of man his grandfather was believed to be, and the loving, self-sacrifing man his father seemed to be. In the end, after many years he finds himself being his mother's confidant-best girlfriend.

By the age of five or six, after his mother has had a nervous breakdown and the family finally moves from her parent's house, the boy has already figured out that as far as indentity, intimacy, relationships, and sex are concerned, his thinking is totally messed up, and may never get straight.

All the time he knows that even though he can not find or feel loved by many of those around him God loves him. However, he can not seem to let God take his rightful place because his mother is there and remains there until she passes away.



zamdad -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/2/2008 2:05:46 AM)

Is that your story, Leon? I’ve listened to more than my fair share of life stories. I have heard the seemingly insignificant details that lead to the attitudes, values and beliefs that form the fame from which people think and, ultimately, make their decisions.

One homosexual man I worked with told us that he was born gay. In his mind, he honestly believes this. Yet, his life story tells of growing up in a home where his mother entertained men regularly. His life story, unfortunately, is filled with his own sexual encounters with the same men that his mother was having sex with. All of his life he took care of his mother and, at the same time, frequently found himself being used in the same way, by the same men, as his mother.

As for the sexual development of 1-4 year olds, I think I understand what you are getting at. I agree with RC that, on the surface, it sounds creepy. Yet, I know that young children begin to think about the differences between boys and girls and know that there is a reason for this difference. Curiosity is normal. They see and hear sexual innuendo all the time and are not as naïve as we adults want to believe.

My first sexual experimentation occurred around the age of five with a female cousin. She was two years older than me and she initiated it. My mom even caught us the first time, but nothing happened. Looking back and now being a parent myself, I think she did not want to believe what she saw; that she dismissed it in favor of something more innocent. Sexual activity with this cousin lasted until middle school. But, shortly after the initial encounter, I was playing the same games with the girl next door. Once I started elementary school, I found myself playing the same games with other girls.

During my teen years, my parents allowed me to have porn as long as it was not too graphic. IN essence, they encouraged my promiscuity. My dad used to joke that he needed to take me to Mexico and get me bred. During high school I became sexually active with my first long term girlfriend and, after breaking up with her, was sexually active with many girls. As a young adult I was, as one of my roommates called me, a male slut.

I wrote earlier about God writing His law on our hearts. All the time I was living this lifestyle, I knew it to be wrong. But, it felt good and everyone was doing it. It was the expected social norm. Eventually God got hold of me and showed me that I was on the wrong path. Eventually He put me in a position where I was working with men and women convicted of sex crimes. He taught me that my former way of thinking was no different than the men and women I worked with. In my former life I used people and created situations to get sexual partners that I had fantasized about into situations where I could get my needs met in spite of the other persons needs. Some of those encounters turned into long term relationships, but the initial encounter was about my sexual gratification. It could also have been the other way around, that I was used by women to seeking to meet their own needs. But, perhaps this is why relationships devoid of God leave us feeling so empty.



Marcus. -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/2/2008 3:16:34 AM)

Thanks for that Zamdad. At some point in each of our lives, the blinders come off and we see ourselves as God does. The stench of our own sin clings to us and we can't deny the truth anymore. And we can't live with the sinful behavior any longer.



rcjames -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/2/2008 9:12:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leon_Figg3
By the age of five or six, after his mother has had a nervous breakdown and the family finally moves from her parent's house, the boy has already figured out that as far as indentity, intimacy, relationships, and sex are concerned, his thinking is totally messed up, and may never get straight.

All the time he knows that even though he can not find or feel loved by many of those around him God loves him. However, he can not seem to let God take his rightful place because his mother is there and remains there until she passes away.


Jesus said;

(Luk 4:18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, (Luk 4:19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

So faith in Jesus would fix any of the "Problems" you are trying t afix to the person with a bad childhood.

As a child we all steal, lie, and play doctor; that does not mean we will turn out to be theives, liars, and promiscuis folks.

Homosesuality is a chosen sin, we all chose one sin or another as the Bibble says "All have sinned and came short of the glory of God".

Folks can talk all the psyco-babble they want, but it will not change the truth.

Thanks
RC



Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/2/2008 10:09:18 AM)

zamdad,
Yes, that is pretty much my story.

In order to provide the short version, I left out some details that also seemd to contribute to the emotional chaos that I now believe I have long had to deal with.

In a nut shell I have long had a hunger for love, and a desire to be intimately involved with some one emotionally for a long period of time, but that has always seemd out of my grasp. Even with God, that has been difficult though I know He freely offers his love and is always there. I have had this sense that I never quite measure up, or deserve to be loved partially because even though I have tried to be the male I was born to be I've never quite figured out what that really meant or looked like.

When I was about five or six, I seemed to already know that I was different. That my thoughts were as pornographic as anything I could ever see. I mentally sexualized almost every crush and relationship I had (only a couple were off limits to being sexualized). I saw the sexual story lines in television programs and movies no matter how camouflaged they seemed to be. (This was in the 1950s)

Intimacy and love always seemed more achievable and longer lasting in my imagination than in real life. However, one can not attain real love and intimacy through living in fantasies. One must seek it in the real world. Unfortuneately I have long ago discovered that my emotional scars, and my responses to them, from early childhood, have been so deep that physically intimacy is nearly impossible.

In the real world, a person who has a deep hunger for love and intimacy, but is unsure of his identity, can not always choose who will seem to answer and fill that need. To some extent I have come to believe that this is especially true for men who have had a faulty image of what a man is, and has also has had a faulty relationship with the father-figure(s) in his life. As a result, on a couple instances, I almost went too far with relationships I have had with another man.

Because I was so emotionally scared during the early years of my life I responded as if I was sexually abused. I created alter egos. One was a channel through which everything was sexualized. The other was a channel through which everything was evaluated through the laws and ideals God placed on my heart. More often than not, it was the first one that tended to control my thoughts. The second usually acts to prevent the first from taking control.

I quess I launched into this part of the discussion, like I have, to show that perhaps we Christians need to change the way we are discussing and deal with the issue of homeosexuality. It is far more complicated than we would like to think. It involves more that the messages our culture dishes out. It has a lot more to do with the messages we men give out to our sons and daughters in our words and deeds.

When I was 16 my parents divorced, and my father disappeared from my life. Though he was hardly ever really- emotionally or physically- around, as I grew up, he was around long enough to have a good inpact on me. That's why until recently I have been unable to accept the pain that at 16 he abandoned me at a time I probobly needed him the most. A time I felt I needed to, and could push myself to turn to him for answers about what a man really was, and all the chaos going on in my head about relationships and sex.

I think God is trying to wake us men up with books like the Everyman's Man Battle book series, and other efforts by churches, and pastors. We have lost touch with God's image of what a man is, and what he is responsible for. Now we are faced with the challenge to get it back.



zamdad -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/5/2008 6:44:25 AM)

quote:

to show that perhaps we Christians need to change the way we are discussing and deal with the issue of homeosexuality. It is far more complicated than we would like to think. It involves more that the messages our culture dishes out. It has a lot more to do with the messages we men give out to our sons and daughters in our words and deeds.


I think you are right on this point. In the many conversations I've had with people around the topic of sexuality I've noticed that the majority of people have difficulty getting over self; seeing things outside the box they've confined their perspective in. Unfortunately, too much of the information we gather to fill that box comes from the popular culture through consumption of mass media. And, yes, you're right. As men we need to be husbands and fathers and lead our families to Christ. Not by domineering them, but by living with the character of Christ.

Thanks for your story. I pray that you are able to find Christ when the adversary is drawing you the other way. Satan knows where our weaknesses are and he does everything he can to keep our attention away from Christ. You are not alone.



carl54 -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/10/2008 7:38:57 PM)

We are all born with sin. The choice is whether or not we yield to our natural tendencies to sin. My weakness is other women. I've never cheated on my wife and never will. I just keep my eyes and ears open for signs of that temptation and when I hear or see them, I run and take cover. Read Romans Ch 7. That's the story of life and that's why the Bible is full of directions to stay away from the very appearance of sin.



TheosCentric -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (9/22/2008 6:05:24 AM)

I have written a blog post recently on this topic and how it pertains to Christianity. I've gotten quite a lot of responses from people who claim to be Christian and Homosexual. It's become quite an interesting dialogue.

I am looking into a couple of other articles on this subject as well. Part of this came about because of Soulforce's Equality Ride which is coming through town soon.

Here's the direct link: http://god-at-the-center.blogspot.com/2008/09/homosexual-christianity.html



dpmartin -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (9/23/2008 9:24:58 AM)

Those of us born, and dwell in the flesh, should understand that the place of the flesh that is given to us, is a place to be, and is made and owned by God. If we think to take ownership of that which is not ours and choose to think things, feel things, and do things, of our own will, is the transgression or theft of God’s property. For the capacity to think is God’s property given for mans possession. The capacity to feel as in heart, or to do as in the strength of flesh is God’s property given to man for possession. And it’s what is known as saying,” I have free will of choice”, that God has a disdain for. God has already chosen the purpose and destiny of mankind, where is the choice on your part?

The whole concept of what is known as “sex” is a interpretation of what the Truth is and not the Truth. The concept of “sex” is in the mind of man maintained by the world to be continually confusing, and used for the world’s purposes of self justification. But if you look at it head-on that which the flesh experiences is made by the property owner. It’s simple, if the back rub feels good, it feels good, a pleasure given by God. But who gives you the back rub and what your minds thoughts and hearts feelings about the back rub and the experience of the back rub is your charge of responsibility in accordance to the Truth in the Light. Not interpretation. Such as who gives you a back rub, you may accept or reject, or where or when.

It must be understood that interpretation of the Truth of the commandment which had the instructions to live and not die was given at the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And when Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree they agreed to the interpretation. Taking ownership of that which belongs to the Lord our God.

If by taking ownership of that which the owner and maker made, and has given for a possession, and using it to execute one’s own free will, one makes oneself his own. And does not belong to the maker, nor does he serve the maker, though all flesh and its capacities is the property of the maker thereof.



rcjames -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (9/23/2008 1:28:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dpmartin

Those of us born, and dwell in the flesh, should understand that the place of the flesh that is given to us, is a place to be, and is made and owned by God. If we think to take ownership of that which is not ours and choose to think things, feel things, and do things, of our own will, is the transgression or theft of God’s property. For the capacity to think is God’s property given for mans possession. The capacity to feel as in heart, or to do as in the strength of flesh is God’s property given to man for possession. And it’s what is known as saying,” I have free will of choice”, that God has a disdain for. God has already chosen the purpose and destiny of mankind, where is the choice on your part?


May I suggest that you take that argument to the Calvanist thread.

Thanks
RC



dpmartin -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (9/23/2008 3:59:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames


May I suggest that you take that argument to the Calvanist thread.

Thanks
RC


Why?



rcjames -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (9/23/2008 4:03:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dpmartin
Why?


It would seem, to me at least, that you are proposing that man has no free will or choice in their sin or repentance thereof. If I am reading it correctly then that is Calvinism to the max and it will get moved by the mods.

Thanks
RC



Fritzpw_Admin -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (9/23/2008 4:04:27 PM)

I agree, ship it over to the Calvinism thread.



dpmartin -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (9/23/2008 4:45:22 PM)

Is there any statement against repentance posted? What do you repent from any ways? Is it not your own choice for the Father’s choice in Jesus Christ? Is it not your will for the Father’s will in Jesus Christ? How is it that one should live the Life that God has given in Jesus Christ if you choose to live your own?



Grace-N-Mercy -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (10/1/2008 5:01:10 PM)

Hey, everyone. I need a favor... my textbook states that there are only four passages that speak against homosexuality, but I thought there were more. They mention Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13, 1 Cor. 6:9, Romans 1:26-27. Another book adds Genesis 19:4-5, and Romans 1:28-32. I know these are the main verses, but are there more? Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but I can't go through all 100 pages right now. [:)]



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