RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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TheosCentric -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (10/1/2008 5:12:54 PM)

(1Co 6:9) Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

(1Ti 1:10) the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,

English Standard Version



Grace-N-Mercy -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (10/1/2008 5:21:15 PM)

Thank you, Theos.



siapa -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (10/2/2008 12:16:05 PM)

NOW & FOREVER...I WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND how & why the homosexual exists??? I mean, God created Adam & Eve (the first man & woman on earth). How can someone attracted to another of the same sex....could NOT be accepted by logic or common sense or emotion at all...[8|]. I just don't get it, I definitely believe it's satan's endeavour to mislead people to misbehavior, don't you think?



TheosCentric -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (10/2/2008 12:23:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: siapa

NOW & FOREVER...I WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND how & why the homosexual exists??? I mean, God created Adam & Eve (the first man & woman on earth). How can someone attracted to another of the same sex....could NOT be accepted by logic or common sense or emotion at all...[8|]. I just don't get it, I definitely believe it's satan's endeavour to mislead people to misbehavior, don't you think?


It's called sin. It's ingrained in each of us from birth.



siapa -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (10/2/2008 12:33:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
It's called sin. It's ingrained in each of us from birth.


It's ingrained...but I don't think most people (like myself) don't EVEN have this kind of feelings towards others with the same sex...I just don't get it, TheosCentric...at least for me. God bless.



ServantsWife -> Homosexuality Article (10/2/2008 12:40:38 PM)

I reposted the Crosswalk article called "Homosexuality: Can I blame my genes?" in a bulletin on MySpace. I had a reply back to it and her question was "Then whats a hermaphrodite supposed to do?"... which I find.. interesting.

Any thoughts on this?



rcjames -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (10/2/2008 12:53:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: siapa

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
It's called sin. It's ingrained in each of us from birth.


It's ingrained...but I don't think most people (like myself) don't EVEN have this kind of feelings towards others with the same sex...I just don't get it, TheosCentric...at least for me. God bless.


Each person choses to sin (it in indwelt in us) some choose to lie, some to steal, some to gossip, some to commit homosexuality sin, some to commit adultery; we all sin.

And we all need Jesus to cleanse us of that sin.

Thanks
RC



rcjames -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/2/2008 12:54:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ServantsWife

I reposted the Crosswalk article called "Homosexuality: Can I blame my genes?" in a bulletin on MySpace. I had a reply back to it and her question was "Then whats a hermaphrodite supposed to do?"... which I find.. interesting.

Any thoughts on this?


Birth defects have noting to do with our indwellin sin nature.

Thanks
RC



stellaluna -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/2/2008 12:56:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ServantsWife

I reposted the Crosswalk article called "Homosexuality: Can I blame my genes?" in a bulletin on MySpace. I had a reply back to it and her question was "Then whats a hermaphrodite supposed to do?"... which I find.. interesting.

Any thoughts on this?

I've been thinking about this a lot since reading Middlesex. First I think parents and doctors need to not panic and to not attempt to cover up something that is obviously a birth defect. Instead of jumping to surgery, they should do as much testing as is possible or necessary to determine the chromosomal gender of the child. Then, and only then, should they act accordingly.



ServantsWife -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/3/2008 2:55:32 AM)

So.. if a hermaphrodite keeps both of their natural parts, can they choose which sex they decide to be with? And would it be called homosexuality?


.....I understand this could be an unanswerable question, with really no right or wrong answer. perhaps???



DaveW -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/3/2008 7:38:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

I've been thinking about this a lot since reading Middlesex. First I think parents and doctors need to not panic and to not attempt to cover up something that is obviously a birth defect. Instead of jumping to surgery, they should do as much testing as is possible or necessary to determine the chromosomal gender of the child. Then, and only then, should they act accordingly.
Well, if you have a non-disjunction situation where you may have chromosomes of XXY or a chimera situation where you will find both XX and XY chromosomes mixed in together, it may be incorrect to think of it as a birth defect.



rcjames -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/3/2008 9:40:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

I've been thinking about this a lot since reading Middlesex. First I think parents and doctors need to not panic and to not attempt to cover up something that is obviously a birth defect. Instead of jumping to surgery, they should do as much testing as is possible or necessary to determine the chromosomal gender of the child. Then, and only then, should they act accordingly.
Well, if you have a non-disjunction situation where you may have chromosomes of XXY or a chimera situation where you will find both XX and XY chromosomes mixed in together, it may be incorrect to think of it as a birth defect.


Well I am a long way from being a genetics expert, but would not having as situation such as this be a birth defect; with defect being described as not being born as a normal child..Just as any other chromosonal disfunction; downs etc.

Thanks
RC



stellaluna -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/3/2008 11:15:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ServantsWife

So.. if a hermaphrodite keeps both of their natural parts, can they choose which sex they decide to be with? And would it be called homosexuality?


.....I understand this could be an unanswerable question, with really no right or wrong answer. perhaps???

Did you just read what I wrote?

And Dave--I still think of it as a birth defect, just like my friend's daughter born with a chromosomal abnormality that affects her digestive system. I'm mainly arguing against freaking out at birth and "fixing" the appearance of something wrong.



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/3/2008 1:08:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

I've been thinking about this a lot since reading Middlesex. First I think parents and doctors need to not panic and to not attempt to cover up something that is obviously a birth defect. Instead of jumping to surgery, they should do as much testing as is possible or necessary to determine the chromosomal gender of the child. Then, and only then, should they act accordingly.


Well, if you have a non-disjunction situation where you may have chromosomes of XXY or a chimera situation where you will find both XX and XY chromosomes mixed in together, it may be incorrect to think of it as a birth defect.


I see, especially with Christians (for whatever reason), that the hidden factors don't seem to matter much. You can literally see two pairs of genitalia, but you can't see EVERYTHING that affects sex...and I believe the inward issues are more important than the outside. External genitalia are secondary, not primary. Think about all the things we don't know about genetics and sex. It's good that we do now know about chromosomal abnormalities that affect sex, but think about all the other inward biological things that we don't know that could affect this as well.

I know of someone back in the day that was born with both sex of genitalia, they took off the wrong set and now he (genetically male; secondarily female) has to deal with it. I believe he tried to live like a woman, but he's not genetically ambiguous...I believe he's XY with female parts.



stellaluna -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/3/2008 1:17:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22


I know of someone back in the day that was born with both sex of genitalia, they took off the wrong set and now he (genetically male; secondarily female) has to deal with it. I believe he tried to live like a woman, but he's not genetically ambiguous...I believe he's XY with female parts.

This is very sad to me. And it's probably happened thousands and thousands of times.



Bluethread -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/3/2008 1:18:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

Well, if you have a non-disjunction situation where you may have chromosomes of XXY or a chimera situation where you will find both XX and XY chromosomes mixed in together, it may be incorrect to think of it as a birth defect.


These are exceptions that prove the rule. Just because there is an exception, that does not negate the rule. Indeed the fact that these are considered exceptions proves that there is a rule. Let me explain, if someone can not determine who his father is, this does not mean that those of us who know our fathers and mothers are not to honor them if we don't feel like it or it is difficult. We all struggle with our circumstances. However, if we allow our circumstances to dictate our morality we will soon have no morality at all.



DaveW -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/4/2008 6:59:50 PM)

exceptions that prove a rule? How can there be exceptions to the rules of God's morality?

The rules are clear: no sex outside of marriage and no marriage with someone of the same gender or close kin.

The question we are asking here is how do you determine which gender someone is that has ambiguous genitals or both sets, or that have abnormal chromosomes or is a chimera?

We are not looking at there being exceptions because there can be none. God's rule in this is one-size-fits-all.



MyCatSmokey2006 -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/4/2008 9:09:33 PM)

I've not had time to read all the posts, but here is what I'm asking:

1. Ray Boltz claims that he was born homosexual. According to what I've skim-read above, as well as God's word, I know that's not true. SInce he admits to living in sin, should we boycott his music? I've got some wonderful CD's with my favorite songs that I'm having some difficulty parting with.

2. Also, which companies are we being encouraged to boycott because of their homosexual practices/views? I've heard of Disneyland and McD's.

3. What other companies are we being encouraged to boycott for other reasons? Can you provide a link?

I would have liked to have started a thread with these questions, but knowing how things work around here, I didn't want to start a thread that would immediately get locked and referred to this thread, so I saved them the trouble, even though this topic really does belong in its own thread. (hint hint)



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/4/2008 11:32:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

exceptions that prove a rule? How can there be exceptions to the rules of God's morality?

The rules are clear: no sex outside of marriage and no marriage with someone of the same gender or close kin.

The question we are asking here is how do you determine which gender someone is that has ambiguous genitals or both sets, or that have abnormal chromosomes or is a chimera?
We are not looking at there being exceptions because there can be none. God's rule in this is one-size-fits-all.


True. What bothers me is that people tend to look on the outside, but many times even determining gender is difficult. Even people who don't have chromosomal problems can have other intrinsic problems that make it hard. We as humans don't know everything that can cause gender ambiguity; if someone says they were born in the wrong body, they might be right (in that they have the wrong fleshly body). We don't know, but God does. :)



zamdad -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/5/2008 1:02:26 AM)

quote:

The question we are asking here is how do you determine which gender someone is that has ambiguous genitals or both sets, or that have abnormal chromosomes or is a chimera?


Yet, this has nothing to do with homosexuality. Yes, it can be argued that the person has to make a choice. Are they male or female? Who are they going to choose for sexual partners?

If Christ is at the center of their lives, He is going to be first and foremost in their lives. For anyone and everyone else, it still comes down to a choice to engage in the behavior or not.



stellaluna -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/5/2008 1:10:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zamdad

quote:

The question we are asking here is how do you determine which gender someone is that has ambiguous genitals or both sets, or that have abnormal chromosomes or is a chimera?


Yet, this has nothing to do with homosexuality. Yes, it can be argued that the person has to make a choice. Are they male or female? Who are they going to choose for sexual partners?

If Christ is at the center of their lives, He is going to be first and foremost in their lives. For anyone and everyone else, it still comes down to a choice to engage in the behavior or not.

I think this sums it up. And I looked up "chimera" and it appears there are only 40 known human cases in humans. That's so rare I'm not sure we can use it as a "what if."



stellaluna -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/5/2008 1:14:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MyCatSmokey2006
I've not had time to read all the posts, but here is what I'm asking:

1. Ray Boltz claims that he was born homosexual. According to what I've skim-read above, as well as God's word, I know that's not true. SInce he admits to living in sin, should we boycott his music? I've got some wonderful CD's with my favorite songs that I'm having some difficulty parting with.

I think it might actually be possible to be born gay. I just don't personally believe that makes it okay to act on. As for his music, I think you should do what you're led to do.

quote:


2. Also, which companies are we being encouraged to boycott because of their homosexual practices/views? I've heard of Disneyland and McD's.

3. What other companies are we being encouraged to boycott for other reasons? Can you provide a link?

I'm not boycotting anything.



zamdad -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/5/2008 3:09:21 AM)

quote:

I think it might actually be possible to be born gay.


How so?



TheosCentric -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/5/2008 5:45:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

quote:

ORIGINAL: MyCatSmokey2006
I've not had time to read all the posts, but here is what I'm asking:

1. Ray Boltz claims that he was born homosexual. According to what I've skim-read above, as well as God's word, I know that's not true. SInce he admits to living in sin, should we boycott his music? I've got some wonderful CD's with my favorite songs that I'm having some difficulty parting with.

I think it might actually be possible to be born gay. I just don't personally believe that makes it okay to act on. As for his music, I think you should do what you're led to do.



That's been proven false by the Human Genome project. There is no "gay gene."



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/5/2008 9:39:41 AM)

The "gay gene" is not the only thing that has a bearing in sexual orientation. [&:] Genetics isn't the only branch of biology that can help explain intrinsic SSA.

I do agree with you Stellaluna; I do believe there's a such thing as being born gay, esp. due to a biological problem. But the way I think about it is, we can only see what sex someone is on the outside, and we humans don't know everything about sexuality. God knows what they are on the inside, even if we want physcially look and say they're "x" because they have "x's" sex organs. If God sees what's on the inside, and the inside is opposite of the outside, but this person knows the outside is wrong (and they are correct), is it still wrong for them to go with their inward sex and have the world see them as homosexual? Or, since humans can only see so much about this at the moment, is it just wrong because they're going against what organs they were born with? Their backwardness may not show up in genetic testing as well, but that doesn't mean they don't have a problem.... It means we don't know all that we can know. (But we do have other biological problemss that have made someone "gay," and once corrected they were straight.) I'd say it doesn't make it right for those born biologically gay to go with the same sex... but if they are truly (for example) male in a female body, then what IS wrong for them? I'd say it's correct to go with one's true gender, not their secondary sex organs.



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