RE: Homosexuality Article (Full Version)

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humbleinspirit -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/5/2008 10:22:17 AM)

I think that it is much rarer than people say saying with people being born with mixed chromosones. Almost like the abortion debate of in the case that the mother is in danger, etc.



stellaluna -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/5/2008 11:59:08 AM)

While we would like gender and sexuality to be black and white, it simply isn't.

Straight Christians don't like to hear (apparently) that one could be born gay. They say they chose it, no matter what. Homosexuals don't like to hear that a person can choose to be with someone of the same sex. They say they were born gay and just didn't realize it. It goes against any box that people would prefer to live in.

For all the reasons mentioned in solo's post, I believe it may be possible for someone to be born gay. Anecdotally, I know of several gay and lesbian people who showed preference for the same sex before age two.

Further, I know of at least a dozen who literally chose to be with someone of the same sex (as adults) because their relationships with people of the opposite sex had been hurtful or abusive, etc.

Anyway, biology is sometimes more complicated than we would like it to be. But like I said before, biology does not override the commandments of God.



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/5/2008 12:53:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit

I think that it is much rarer than people say saying with people being born with mixed chromosones. Almost like the abortion debate of in the case that the mother is in danger, etc.


But think about this... chromosomes aren't the only biological abberration that can play a role in sexuality. At some point many major disorders and diseases were thought to be solely the fault of the person, but as inforation and research confirmed other things, we began to see what was really going on inside someone's body. I don't think the chromosomal problems with some homosexuals are the major biological role in it; I think there are more common biological problems that we simply haven't gotten around to learning yet. Just because we don't know something doesn't mean it's non-existent.



Marcus. -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/5/2008 1:01:06 PM)

If it is possible to be born gay then it is possible to be born a murderer, a thief, a rapist, etc. That would play hand in hand with the idea that some people are destined for destruction. But we all know God doesn't create evil and He doesn't want any to perish.

I haver heard over the years that there was some research into genetics versus environment. There appears to more support for environment being the primary cause from what I remember. What I remember being the focus was the hormones in the mother's system during the development of the brain.

IMO experience the folks I have known who were gay had been sexually abused as kids.



Giggles56 -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/5/2008 2:49:45 PM)

I know I'm not an expert and can't say what makes a person gay. Just as I can't say what makes a person a murderer, pedophile, thief, addict, etc. Is it just sin? No matter who we are I think we all have the capabilities to be any of those things, and we can choose to follow those desires or not. That's my opinion. Most of us just want to understand why and we seek for answers and people give their opinions. Who can say who's right or wrong?



rcjames -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/5/2008 3:55:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Giggles56

I know I'm not an expert and can't say what makes a person gay. Just as I can't say what makes a person a murderer, pedophile, thief, addict, etc. Is it just sin? No matter who we are I think we all have the capabilities to be any of those things, and we can choose to follow those desires or not. That's my opinion. Most of us just want to understand why and we seek for answers and people give their opinions. Who can say who's right or wrong?


Yes the range of chosen sin is wike and far-reaching.

I do not know why some choose to be homosexuals, and others choose to be gossipers; I only know that all choose some sin that separates them form God, and Jesus is the only answer to fix that separation.

Thanks
RC



zamdad -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/5/2008 4:07:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

While we would like gender and sexuality to be black and white, it simply isn't.

Straight Christians don't like to hear (apparently) that one could be born gay. They say they chose it, no matter what. Homosexuals don't like to hear that a person can choose to be with someone of the same sex. They say they were born gay and just didn't realize it. It goes against any box that people would prefer to live in.

For all the reasons mentioned in solo's post, I believe it may be possible for someone to be born gay. Anecdotally, I know of several gay and lesbian people who showed preference for the same sex before age two.

Further, I know of at least a dozen who literally chose to be with someone of the same sex (as adults) because their relationships with people of the opposite sex had been hurtful or abusive, etc.

Anyway, biology is sometimes more complicated than we would like it to be. But like I said before, biology does not override the commandments of God.


Accepting the argument tnat people are born gay means that we have to also accept the argument that some people are born pedophiles. necrophiliacs, bestials, etc. Pick your paraphilia.

We humans seem to want so bad to find some genetic/biological excuse for our sinful nature. I don't buy the argument either that some people show sexual preferance befreo the age of two. At that age, boys and girls are at the beginning stages of noticing they're plumbing is different. Sexual arousal/attraction, while it is a natural/biological function, is a learned process. This is where environment comes into play.

People have sex with animals. Do you here them saying they have sexual attraction toward four legged critters. A true pedophile is sexuall aroused/attracted to prepubescent children. If we're going to accept that homosexuality is a normal pattern of human development, we're on the slippery slope to accept all other forms of sexual deviance.



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/5/2008 5:42:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

While we would like gender and sexuality to be black and white, it simply isn't.

Straight Christians don't like to hear (apparently) that one could be born gay. They say they chose it, no matter what. Homosexuals don't like to hear that a person can choose to be with someone of the same sex. They say they were born gay and just didn't realize it. It goes against any box that people would prefer to live in.

For all the reasons mentioned in solo's post, I believe it may be possible for someone to be born gay. Anecdotally, I know of several gay and lesbian people who showed preference for the same sex before age two.

Further, I know of at least a dozen who literally chose to be with someone of the same sex (as adults) because their relationships with people of the opposite sex had been hurtful or abusive, etc.

Anyway, biology is sometimes more complicated than we would like it to be. But like I said before, biology does not override the commandments of God.


Missed this earlier. I believe we want it to be easy for OUR minds and judgments-- what you see on the outside is what they oughtta be kind of mentality. It's not that easy... but we want to make it that easy. Man on the outside goes with a woman and vice versa; problem is that we can't judge the inside. What's on the inside is what really determines gender...but we can only see externally. I wish we did know all there is to know about the biology of this. About those exhibiting traits before the age of two, my mother (retired nurse) does believe something biologically is probably wrong with them. I believe the same; IMO, that's not just due to nothing at such a young age.



stellaluna -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/5/2008 7:27:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zamdad

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

While we would like gender and sexuality to be black and white, it simply isn't.

Straight Christians don't like to hear (apparently) that one could be born gay. They say they chose it, no matter what. Homosexuals don't like to hear that a person can choose to be with someone of the same sex. They say they were born gay and just didn't realize it. It goes against any box that people would prefer to live in.

For all the reasons mentioned in solo's post, I believe it may be possible for someone to be born gay. Anecdotally, I know of several gay and lesbian people who showed preference for the same sex before age two.

Further, I know of at least a dozen who literally chose to be with someone of the same sex (as adults) because their relationships with people of the opposite sex had been hurtful or abusive, etc.

Anyway, biology is sometimes more complicated than we would like it to be. But like I said before, biology does not override the commandments of God.


Accepting the argument tnat people are born gay means that we have to also accept the argument that some people are born pedophiles. necrophiliacs, bestials, etc. Pick your paraphilia.

We humans seem to want so bad to find some genetic/biological excuse for our sinful nature. I don't buy the argument either that some people show sexual preferance befreo the age of two. At that age, boys and girls are at the beginning stages of noticing they're plumbing is different. Sexual arousal/attraction, while it is a natural/biological function, is a learned process. This is where environment comes into play.

People have sex with animals. Do you here them saying they have sexual attraction toward four legged critters. A true pedophile is sexuall aroused/attracted to prepubescent children. If we're going to accept that homosexuality is a normal pattern of human development, we're on the slippery slope to accept all other forms of sexual deviance.

First, I'm not looking for excuses at all. You missed what I said about biology not being an excuse to live in any sort of sin.

Second, you're equating "preference" with "sexuality" in children. I'm not.

Third, I have heard people claim they were born with all kinds of "-philias." Do I believe them? Not necessarily, but I haven't looked into it at all because I'm not interested.

The only reason I'm bringing any of this up is because we know that biologically, many things can happen that affect gender. Gender is not always black and white. When it isn't, neither is sexuality.



zamdad -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/5/2008 8:08:50 PM)

quote:

First, I'm not looking for excuses at all. You missed what I said about biology not being an excuse to live in any sort of sin.

Second, you're equating "preference" with "sexuality" in children. I'm not.

Third, I have heard people claim they were born with all kinds of "-philias." Do I believe them? Not necessarily, but I haven't looked into it at all because I'm not interested.

The only reason I'm bringing any of this up is because we know that biologically, many things can happen that affect gender. Gender is not always black and white. When it isn't, neither is sexuality.


First, I'm not saying that you are looking for excuses. I said we, as in all of us, human beings.

Second, your post indicated that you knew people who expressed a preference for same sex partners and they said that they knew before they were two:

quote:

For all the reasons mentioned in solo's post, I believe it may be possible for someone to be born gay. Anecdotally, I know of several gay and lesbian people who showed preference for the same sex before age two.


If you have heard claims from people born with various paraphilias and you do not believe them, why accept the argument from a homosexual thet they're born that way?

I am not going to say that biology and/or genetics don't play a role in sexual development. But, sex exists in the mind. The mind has to tell the body where to go and how to use the equipment. My only concern with the laser beam focus we tend to get on the biological science of sex is that we neglect the thoughts that go into our sexuality.



stellaluna -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/5/2008 9:01:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zamdad

quote:

First, I'm not looking for excuses at all. You missed what I said about biology not being an excuse to live in any sort of sin.

Second, you're equating "preference" with "sexuality" in children. I'm not.

Third, I have heard people claim they were born with all kinds of "-philias." Do I believe them? Not necessarily, but I haven't looked into it at all because I'm not interested.

The only reason I'm bringing any of this up is because we know that biologically, many things can happen that affect gender. Gender is not always black and white. When it isn't, neither is sexuality.


First, I'm not saying that you are looking for excuses. I said we, as in all of us, human beings.

Second, your post indicated that you knew people who expressed a preference for same sex partners and they said that they knew before they were two:

quote:

For all the reasons mentioned in solo's post, I believe it may be possible for someone to be born gay. Anecdotally, I know of several gay and lesbian people who showed preference for the same sex before age two.


If you have heard claims from people born with various paraphilias and you do not believe them, why accept the argument from a homosexual thet they're born that way?

I am not going to say that biology and/or genetics don't play a role in sexual development. But, sex exists in the mind. The mind has to tell the body where to go and how to use the equipment. My only concern with the laser beam focus we tend to get on the biological science of sex is that we neglect the thoughts that go into our sexuality.

I'm still not equating sexuality to preference. I know people in real life who have shunned members of the opposite sex since birth. How's that?

And regarding the other -philias, I said I didn't necessarily believe them. I don't know these people in real life, so how could I discuss it with them?

We don't necessarily believe things that are unpleasant for us. I admit to it.



zamdad -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/6/2008 1:12:47 AM)

quote:

I'm still not equating sexuality to preference. I know people in real life who have shunned members of the opposite sex since birth. How's that?

And regarding the other -philias, I said I didn't necessarily believe them. I don't know these people in real life, so how could I discuss it with them?

We don't necessarily believe things that are unpleasant for us. I admit to it.


Stella, all I've been trying to do is point out that our (cultural) acceptance of homsexuality as normal, that they're born with it, is going to open the door to more deviant sexual practices. I know that Solo is really into the biology of the matter. I think that's great, we need to study it. But, in our studies we can't forget to see how the mind and the body work together.

I've read several more recent comments in this thread that begin with, "I'm no expert but..." This subject is something we all have an opinion on, but what do we base our opinions on? Don't, generally speaking, our opinions get formed by life experience?

My opinion on the matter has changed greatly during my lifetime. I have come to the conclusions I have based on many years of living a promiscuous lifestyle, turning my life over to Christ, and five years of co-facilitating sex offender treatment groups. OUr biology makes us sexual beings. Our minds choose our sexual conduct.



DaveW -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/6/2008 6:56:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

I looked up "chimera" and it appears there are only 40 known human cases in humans. That's so rare I'm not sure we can use it as a "what if."
That's been because they have only been looking at some extreme cases in the last decade and a half. These are cases where DNA evidence has been presented in court and has conflicted other known evidence. No one has a clue how many there are. It could be in the millions. If you are from a family with fraternal twinning on your mother's side, YOU could be a chimera. I could be too.



DaveW -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/6/2008 7:07:19 AM)

quote:

Straight Christians don't like to hear (apparently) that one could be born gay.
quote:

If it is possible to be born gay then it is possible to be born a murderer, a thief, a rapist, etc. That would play hand in hand with the idea that some people are destined for destruction. But we all know God doesn't create evil and He doesn't want any to perish.
Hence the search by some for a 'gay gene.' That does not exist, but there are heritages just as real, just as effectacious as genetics and that is a person's spiritual heritage. We are all born with a spiritual dna birth defect giving us a sin nature. Many kids are born demonized. The demons can be related to sexuality, violence, addictions, or any other vice or illness.

So in that sense, being born gay is entirely possible; and those who have the opinion that such a thing cannot happen is operating out of a non-biblical world view.



TheosCentric -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/6/2008 9:16:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

Straight Christians don't like to hear (apparently) that one could be born gay.
quote:

If it is possible to be born gay then it is possible to be born a murderer, a thief, a rapist, etc. That would play hand in hand with the idea that some people are destined for destruction. But we all know God doesn't create evil and He doesn't want any to perish.
Hence the search by some for a 'gay gene.' That does not exist, but there are heritages just as real, just as effectacious as genetics and that is a person's spiritual heritage. We are all born with a spiritual dna birth defect giving us a sin nature. Many kids are born demonized. The demons can be related to sexuality, violence, addictions, or any other vice or illness.

So in that sense, being born gay is entirely possible; and those who have the opinion that such a thing cannot happen is operating out of a non-biblical world view.

Or non-Charismatic/Pentecostal worldview...[&:]



zamdad -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/6/2008 10:57:16 AM)

quote:

We are all born with a spiritual dna birth defect giving us a sin nature.


In other words, like criminals, we're all born with the capacity for wrong moral choices.



Marcus. -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/6/2008 11:03:42 AM)

It's evidence of God's displeasure with society and the loss of His protection from certain sinful desires. Re: Romans 1.



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/6/2008 11:42:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

I looked up "chimera" and it appears there are only 40 known human cases in humans. That's so rare I'm not sure we can use it as a "what if."
That's been because they have only been looking at some extreme cases in the last decade and a half. These are cases where DNA evidence has been presented in court and has conflicted other known evidence. No one has a clue how many there are. It could be in the millions. If you are from a family with fraternal twinning on your mother's side, YOU could be a chimera. I could be too.


I think I've said this before, but I think many people have genetic problems (or hormonal) who never even get tested. [8|]



stellaluna -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/6/2008 11:48:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zamdad

quote:

We are all born with a spiritual dna birth defect giving us a sin nature.


In other words, like criminals, we're all born with the capacity for wrong moral choices.

I totally agree with that.

And what's that called, I can't think of the word, where I child is murderous from the start? I think there are sins that...override any attempt at a moral choice?...from early childhood. I don't know why that is the case in some people and not in others.



smasiero -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/6/2008 12:34:10 PM)

Hi, just joined Crosswalk.com. Browsed over the last few posts in this thread. I am ex-gay 18 years. Does a person choose who they are attracted to? No. But they certainly choose what they do with their bodies. Having no control over ( what is felt ) desires does not excuse any of us from our choices in behavior - I will go so far as to say we are not excused from our thoughts either.. - allowing lust and desire to control our minds is just as sinful be it hetero or homo.

Are people born gay? Puhleese. We are all made in God's image and all made Heterosexual. That homosexual orientations happen is true = but a result of the fall and no fault of the person who ends up with this malady. I kind of liked what someone said above that we can agree that a person is "born gay" by agreeing that we are all "born in sin".. so, I am born gay, I am born a thief, I am born an adulterer, fornicator, backbiter, reviler, arrogant, proud, boastful, disobedient to parents, lover of money, lover of self, dishonest, slothful, wicked, idolator, and on and on. I am BORN with this NATURAL inclination, desire, "nature".. but I have been washed in the blood.. ( "such WERE some of you " ) I can only find victory in these things through HE who died for me and I am charged with only one task in it all : I MUST YIELD. I turn my will and life over to HIM and HE LIVES THROUGH ME. ( Gal 2:20)
At the point I am submitted to the HS and Christ is LORD, I "overcome', I "conquer", I "fight the good fight", I "keep the faith".. AMEN !

STACE



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/6/2008 1:31:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

quote:

ORIGINAL: zamdad

quote:

We are all born with a spiritual dna birth defect giving us a sin nature.


In other words, like criminals, we're all born with the capacity for wrong moral choices.

I totally agree with that.

And what's that called, I can't think of the word, where I child is murderous from the start? I think there are sins that...override any attempt at a moral choice?...from early childhood. I don't know why that is the case in some people and not in others.


I believe that as well, Stella. I find that we want to see in black and white, when we certainly don't know all there is to know. I realize we probably are on the other side of having full knowledge, and things are not always as we want to put them.

I think of it this way (from the scientific perspective, at least). Schizophrenics having an episode sometimes don't even remember it...they don't remember shooting or stabbing people when they were going through that. Biochemical problems cause all manner of bad things to happen to people's thoughts and subsequent actions. I just think there are different severities of brain disorders. A chemically-induced depression isn't on the same level as catatonic schizo or something like that (in my mind). I don't think things people do are always choices they made...I believe someone can be so out of whack (no fault of their own) that they're no longer the same person. They can't choose. I haven't seen many people like that, but I don't work in the field. I've seen a few.... one woman went into an episode and stabbed a girl; another shot up a bus...and then there are cases like that of Phineas Gage that tell us so very much. I don't think people always have a choice; it honestly depends on what's going on inside that person.

I do understand why some think everything is as simple as choosing. I believe that there are other parts to the equation though...either you believe it or you don't. I don't care to argue it anymore because it doesn't get anywhere. I just want for people to think through everything before they make a judgement.



rcjames -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/6/2008 1:57:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
I think I've said this before, but I think many people have genetic problems (or hormonal) who never even get tested. [8|]


I agree but that does not excuse the sin of homosexualityj, no more that a person who is predisposed to anger gets a pass on killing everyone they get angry with.

All sin is a choice.

Thanks
RC



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/6/2008 3:19:55 PM)

RC, I just respectfully disagree.

If someone is intrinsically the opposite of whatever's on the outside, it's not wrong for them to be what they are internally (IMO). Sex organs are secondary, not primary. How do you know what REAL gender someone is, with all of these unknowns? Perhaps someone really is born with the wrong parts, but we, being human, look at the outside and want to say...yep, that's what they are. We're wrong sometimes, and we humans still don't know everything in this area.



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/6/2008 3:21:36 PM)

And I do not believe that all things humans do are conscious choices made by that real person.



Peter_Gunn -> RE: Homosexuality Article (10/6/2008 3:23:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22

RC, I just respectfully disagree.

If someone is intrinsically the opposite of whatever's on the outside, it's not wrong for them to be what they are internally (IMO). Sex organs are secondary, not primary. How do you know what REAL gender someone is, with all of these unknowns? Perhaps someone really is born with the wrong parts, but we, being human, look at the outside and want to say...yep, that's what they are. We're wrong sometimes, and we humans still don't know everything in this area.



So God just has a little "oops" every so often. Is that what you're saying?

By the way, what's the difference between "secondary" and "primary" organs?



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