|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/3/2008 6:47:42 PM
|
|
|
essentialsaltes
Posts: 1021
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
As long as I am a believer that won't be possible. I cannot approve of something God calls evil.
Do you approve of adultery? Most states have decriminalized adultery, but I don't hear much outrage about that. Just because something is legal doesn't mean you have to approve of it.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/3/2008 7:32:51 PM
|
|
|
Marcus.
Posts: 1338
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
Do you approve of adultery? Most states have decriminalized adultery, but I don't hear much outrage about that. Just because something is legal doesn't mean you have to approve of it.
No and I'm not having much success with my representatives getting it criminalized either. When you see the devastation that adultery causes I don't see how anyone could not be for recriminalizing it.
_____________________________
Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.
Hosea Project
Care Net
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/3/2008 8:21:48 PM
|
|
|
essentialsaltes
Posts: 1021
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Marcus.
When you see the devastation that adultery causes I don't see how anyone could not be for recriminalizing it.
Will putting someone in jail bring a marriage closer together?
Surely some quality time with a marriage counselor or pastor would be more constructive than government intrusion into a family matter.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/3/2008 8:50:00 PM
|
|
|
Marcus.
Posts: 1338
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
Answering this in the Divorce One Stop Thread so we don't hijack this thread.
_____________________________
Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord.
Hosea Project
Care Net
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/4/2008 3:35:47 AM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 1666
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
As society changed, we changed the laws regarding marriage. I'm sure there were conservatives who bemoaned the fact that these newfangled laws were changing traditional marriage, and that God had commanded that man be the head of his wife. But these laws didn't change any bibles or change any religions. They just changed the laws of society in order to better reflect the shared values of that society. In the future, society will continue to change laws in that fashion.
NAMBLA is condemned by GLAAD and other gay rights organizations. Regardless, gay marriage still requires adults to sign the marriage license (or minors with their parents' approval). Gay marriage has nothing to do with pedophilia.
Why so judgemental. On what basis do you judge a man and a boy being "in love"? Shouldn't the government protect the rights of these two to make life and death decisions for one another and inherit their joint belongings. Also, by what standard do you say they are incapable of raising a child? On what do you suggest we base our laws?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/4/2008 10:00:17 AM
|
|
|
Veritas
Posts: 528
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
As society changed, we changed the laws regarding marriage. I'm sure there were conservatives who bemoaned the fact that these newfangled laws were changing traditional marriage, and that God had commanded that man be the head of his wife. But these laws didn't change any bibles or change any religions. They just changed the laws of society in order to better reflect the shared values of that society. In the future, society will continue to change laws in that fashion.
NAMBLA is condemned by GLAAD and other gay rights organizations. Regardless, gay marriage still requires adults to sign the marriage license (or minors with their parents' approval). Gay marriage has nothing to do with pedophilia.
Why so judgemental. On what basis do you judge a man and a boy being "in love"? Shouldn't the government protect the rights of these two to make life and death decisions for one another and inherit their joint belongings. Also, by what standard do you say they are incapable of raising a child? On what do you suggest we base our laws?
Marriage is a contract. Children, animals and inanimate objects cannot enter into contracts.
As it stands now, children can enter into marriage with their parents' permission.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/4/2008 12:47:36 PM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
quote:
Marriage is a contract. Children, animals and inanimate objects cannot enter into contracts.
As it stands now, children can enter into marriage with their parents' permission.
Actually, many pedophiles argue that children do indeed have the wherewithal to justify such decisions, and of course, some people believe some animals have the same cognitive abilities to have a relationship with a human.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/4/2008 12:51:01 PM
|
|
|
zamdad
Posts: 1749
Joined: 4/8/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Marriage is a contract. Children, animals and inanimate objects cannot enter into contracts.
As it stands now, children can enter into marriage with their parents' permission.
Mariiage is a covenenat, not a contract, but that's a seperate issue. As you know, law changes. From the beginning of time marriage has been between one man and one woman. Some supreme court justices have decided that these contracts can be revamped to allow the union of two men or two women. Poligamists are lining up to allow marriage to include multiple spouses. NAMBLA is waiting in the wings to legitimze sexual relationships between children and adults.
When some supreme court justice who thinks he/she is one day older than God and twice as smart uses a stroke of the pen to change the landscape of the culture is left open, we're open to anything.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/4/2008 2:49:28 PM
|
|
|
essentialsaltes
Posts: 1021
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Actually, many pedophiles argue that children do indeed have the wherewithal to justify such decisions, and of course, some people believe some animals have the same cognitive abilities to have a relationship with a human.
Bully for them, but their arguments have no force of law. When they start a ballot initiative to change the age of consent to 5 or to accept a hoof print as a valid signature for a contract, I'll be right alongside you to vote it down.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/4/2008 2:58:51 PM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
quote:
Bully for them, but their arguments have no force of law. When they start a ballot initiative to change the age of consent to 5 or to accept a hoof print as a valid signature for a contract, I'll be right alongside you to vote it down.
On what basis?
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/4/2008 3:05:15 PM
|
|
|
essentialsaltes
Posts: 1021
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
From the beginning of time marriage has been between one man and one woman.
This is obviously false. There have been and still are plenty of societies that recognize polygamous marriages.
No one's voting on whether the gods recognize gay marriage, just on whether the state should recognize them. You say yourself, "As you know, law changes." That's right, and in our democracy, we have rules for how laws get changed. Two hundred years ago, wives couldn't own property. As society progressed, those laws were changed. We're on the cusp of a similar change in marriage today. Changing our laws won't change your God. Nobody's trying to do that.
I have no problem with anyone voting their conscience on this issue. But as you recognize yourself, laws change. There is nothing immutable about the definition of marriage as a legal matter. If you don't like that, you don't like democracy.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/4/2008 3:06:34 PM
|
|
|
essentialsaltes
Posts: 1021
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Bully for them, but their arguments have no force of law. When they start a ballot initiative to change the age of consent to 5 or to accept a hoof print as a valid signature for a contract, I'll be right alongside you to vote it down.
On what basis?
My subjective morality. It's all I've got, but it works pretty well.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/4/2008 3:08:49 PM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
quote:
My subjective morality. It's all I've got, but it works pretty well.
Well then I am not sure why my arguments against gay marriage aren't equally valid.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/4/2008 5:21:54 PM
|
|
|
essentialsaltes
Posts: 1021
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well then I am not sure why my arguments against gay marriage aren't equally valid.
I already said "I have no problem with anyone voting their conscience on this issue."
You have your right to your own opinion, but you don't have the right to your own facts or logic. The fact that pederasts want to legalize pederasty does not change the fact that children cannot sign a marriage license, and same-sex marriage will not affect this in any way.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/4/2008 6:13:54 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 1666
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Actually, many pedophiles argue that children do indeed have the wherewithal to justify such decisions, and of course, some people believe some animals have the same cognitive abilities to have a relationship with a human.
Bully for them, but their arguments have no force of law. When they start a ballot initiative to change the age of consent to 5 or to accept a hoof print as a valid signature for a contract, I'll be right alongside you to vote it down.
Then you believe the decision of the supreme court you quoted above as an example of oppressive government was perfectly moral at the time?
Also, on what basis do you say this is progress and not regress.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/4/2008 6:16:52 PM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
quote:
I already said "I have no problem with anyone voting their conscience on this issue."
You have your right to your own opinion, but you don't have the right to your own facts or logic. The fact that pederasts want to legalize pederasty does not change the fact that children cannot sign a marriage license, and same-sex marriage will not affect this in any way.
Well, homosexuals do not have the right to sign marriage licenses in most of the states of this union either; but that would be the point of this exercise; based on your logic, there is no reason either of these circumstances couldn't change.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/4/2008 6:17:53 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 1666
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well then I am not sure why my arguments against gay marriage aren't equally valid.
I already said "I have no problem with anyone voting their conscience on this issue."
You have your right to your own opinion, but you don't have the right to your own facts or logic. The fact that pederasts want to legalize pederasty does not change the fact that children cannot sign a marriage license, and same-sex marriage will not affect this in any way.
If the pederasts have their way it will? Also, your last statement is not fact, nor a logical conclusion, but personal opinion.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/4/2008 7:05:56 PM
|
|
|
essentialsaltes
Posts: 1021
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well, homosexuals do not have the right to sign marriage licenses in most of the states of this union either; but that would be the point of this exercise; based on your logic, there is no reason either of these circumstances couldn't change.
That is quite true in our democracy. With the passage of an appropriate law or consitutional amendment, either could change. But changing one does not change the other. I reiterate: "The fact that pederasts want to legalize pederasty does not change the fact that children cannot sign a marriage license, and same-sex marriage will not affect this in any way."
Linking them makes about as much sense as saying that giving 18-year-olds the right to vote is tantamount to banning handguns. It would take two separate amendments to get that to happen, as it would take two separate legal acts to allow same-sex marriage and pederasty.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/4/2008 7:12:16 PM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
quote:
That is quite true in our democracy. With the passage of an appropriate law or consitutional amendment, either could change. But changing one does not change the other. I reiterate: "The fact that pederasts want to legalize pederasty does not change the fact that children cannot sign a marriage license, and same-sex marriage will not affect this in any way."
Linking them makes about as much sense as saying that giving 18-year-olds the right to vote is tantamount to banning handguns. It would take two separate amendments to get that to happen, as it would take two separate legal acts to allow same-sex marriage and pederasty.
Actually, the point of both, and how they are related is that they both represent fundamental revisions of our views about marriage and the proper human relationships marriage encompasses. To alter marriage so as to include persons of the same sex, or with one's siblings, or parents, or children, or other species would unnaturally, ahistorically, and immorally alter the the institution of marriage.
So what we are looking for here is a consistent basis for making these decisions; your view is that there isn't one; obviously, I disagree, and seek a society and law based on that consistency.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/4/2008 7:18:09 PM
|
|
|
essentialsaltes
Posts: 1021
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well then I am not sure why my arguments against gay marriage aren't equally valid.
I already said "I have no problem with anyone voting their conscience on this issue."
You have your right to your own opinion, but you don't have the right to your own facts or logic. The fact that pederasts want to legalize pederasty does not change the fact that children cannot sign a marriage license, and same-sex marriage will not affect this in any way.
If the pederasts have their way it will?
If the pederasts convince voters to pass laws or amendments that legalize pederasty, then pederasty will be legal. That's unlikely, but it's a natural consequence of a democracy. The legalization of same-sex marriage neither helps nor hinders the pederasts in their struggle to legalize pederasty. They are separate issues.
quote:
Also, your last statement is not fact, nor a logical conclusion, but personal opinion.
It is a logical conclusion, based on the actual state of legal same-sex marriage in California and elsewhere. Currently, "Party A" and "Party B" on a marriage license can be any gender; the court decision did nothing to change any other requirements for being able to sign a marriage license, e.g. being an adult.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/4/2008 7:21:48 PM
|
|
|
essentialsaltes
Posts: 1021
Joined: 10/14/2007
From: Inglewood, CA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
To alter marriage so as to include persons of the same sex, or with one's siblings, or parents, or children, or other species would unnaturally, ahistorically, and immorally alter the the institution of marriage.
(Shakes head Reaganesquely): 'There you go again!'
quote:
So what we are looking for here is a consistent basis for making these decisions; your view is that there isn't one; obviously, I disagree, and seek a society and law based on that consistency.
Since we live in a society in which laws can be changed by popular vote, you will have to seek elsewhere for that consistency.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/4/2008 7:57:12 PM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 1666
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
It is a logical conclusion, based on the actual state of legal same-sex marriage in California and elsewhere. Currently, "Party A" and "Party B" on a marriage license can be any gender; the court decision did nothing to change any other requirements for being able to sign a marriage license, e.g. being an adult.
I didn't think we were talking about a specific piece of legislation, but a principle on which we as individuals can decide what should or should not be law.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/4/2008 8:39:33 PM
|
|
|
Veritas
Posts: 528
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
Marriage is a contract. Children, animals and inanimate objects cannot enter into contracts.
As it stands now, children can enter into marriage with their parents' permission.
Mariiage is a covenenat, not a contract, but that's a seperate issue. As you know, law changes. From the beginning of time marriage has been between one man and one woman. Some supreme court justices have decided that these contracts can be revamped to allow the union of two men or two women. Poligamists are lining up to allow marriage to include multiple spouses. NAMBLA is waiting in the wings to legitimze sexual relationships between children and adults.
When some supreme court justice who thinks he/she is one day older than God and twice as smart uses a stroke of the pen to change the landscape of the culture is left open, we're open to anything.
The covenant of marriage is a separate issue from the legal concept of marriage. As far as the law is concerned, marriage is a contract.
Yes, the law changes. At one time both parties had to be the same race in order to enter into a marriage.
It is not true that " From the beginning of time marriage has been between one man and one woman" King David had more than one wife, as did several other men in the Old Testament.
Same-sex marriage has nothing to do with polygamy or relationships between children and adults.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/4/2008 9:10:52 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
NAMBLA is condemned by GLAAD and other gay rights organizations. Regardless, gay marriage still requires adults to sign the marriage license (or minors with their parents' approval). Gay marriage has nothing to do with pedophilia.
NAMBLA was eventually condemned....
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Homosexuality Article - 11/4/2008 9:50:24 PM
|
|
|
zamdad
Posts: 1749
Joined: 4/8/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
essentialsaltes
This is obviously false. There have been and still are plenty of societies that recognize polygamous marriages.
But, in this society the courts and the legislature have determined that marriage is between one man and one woman. As I said, the poliygamists are waiting in the wings to bring their cases before the court to get the law changed in their favor.
quote:
The fact that pederasts want to legalize pederasty does not change the fact that children cannot sign a marriage license, and same-sex marriage will not affect this in any way.
Who's to say that some legislators will not propose legislation to lower the age of consent? Or, that some judge who likes young boys might rule to lower the age of consent?
Look, I know the law changes. Sometimes change is good. Other times it's not good. The changes being proposed are not good for anyone involved.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
