RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (Full Version)

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wolfvanzandt -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (7/30/2005 6:35:16 PM)

Theo, I agree with you - but I don't have much trouble understanding where it comes from. You see the same thing with greed. People who want more and more have problems seeing where the line is. They want to think that "there's nothing wrong with having possessions" but they have a problem with seeing where it stops being concern for self and family and begins being a sin. People who have been hurt by greedy people are likely to go to the other extreme and bust people's chops who are just living their lives - "Why aren't you giving to this or that charity or concern - you're evil for hording up all that money."

"Huh? What money. I can barely make my house payments."

"Then move into a smaller house."

"But I have three kids."

"Hey, I know families in the ghetto with 15 kids but they live in three room homes."

Most people have extreme views for real reasons and it often comes out of their culture and from their emotional lives. Homosexuality disgusts people who are not involved with it because it involves sex (which most people in this society finds disgusting anyway), it involves sex that they've been inculturated to believe in inherently disgusting, and they know somewhere deep inside that they're not completely immune (that's why we're so vehement in holding on to the idea that we're not animals (although we're not mineral or vegetable) - we don't want to think that we have half of what we actually do have in us.

I am pretty sure that typical Christians are not against homosexuality because God's against it or because it harms society or the homosexuals themselves - it's simply because of the visceral reaction - homosexuality disgusts them. So, to be as separated from it as possible, our temptation is to go beyond (way beyond) what the Bible says and hate homosexuality, the homosexual, the temptation, any philosophy that could possibly tolerate it (I've heard people say that Bill Clinton was (not "might be" but definitely was) homosexual because he supported the homosexual agenda.), and any culture that might accept homosexuals as people of any value.

Christians aren't extremeists - mainstream humans are - it just so happens that becoming a Christian doesn't seem to cure them of extremism.



Momof2anddog -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (7/30/2005 7:20:40 PM)

wolf, I have always thought that was one of the main reasons for the extreme hatred (disgust) of homosexuality, among Christians and non-Christians alike. Sex and all it encompasses is such a taboo subject.



nativemary -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/30/2005 10:27:41 PM)

Homosexuality is summed up in two words "sex offenders". It is a crime in itself and goes unpunished in society and why is that?.



Veritas -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/31/2005 10:39:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nativemary

Homosexuality is summed up in two words "sex offenders". It is a crime in itself and goes unpunished in society and why is that?.

There is no victim. So I don't see how you can call homosexuals sex offenders. It is not a crime in itself, and it goes unpunished because we we punish people who commit crimes, we do not punish people who don't commit crimes.



XianJedi -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/31/2005 11:12:10 AM)

So, it's not a crime because they don't get punished because it's not a crime.

I guess crimes against God don't count as real crimes.



Veritas -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/31/2005 11:19:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: XianJedi

So, it's not a crime because they don't get punished because it's not a crime.

I guess crimes against God don't count as real crimes.

I didn't say it's not a crime because they don't get punished. I said they don't get punished because it is not a crime.

Whether something is a crime or not is a legal matter Offences against God are not (necessarily) crimes. They would be sins. Homosexuality is not a crime.

So your guess is right. Offences against God don't count as real crimes.



XianJedi -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/31/2005 11:26:31 AM)

quote:

Whether something is a crime or not is a legal matter Offences against God are not (necessarily) crimes. They would be sins. Homosexuality is not a crime.

So your guess is right. Offences against God don't count as real crimes.

You have to pre-define "crime" as being only against MAN'S law. I see no justification for that.



Veritas -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/31/2005 11:41:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: XianJedi

quote:

Whether something is a crime or not is a legal matter Offences against God are not (necessarily) crimes. They would be sins. Homosexuality is not a crime.

So your guess is right. Offences against God don't count as real crimes.

You have to pre-define "crime" as being only against MAN'S law. I see no justification for that.

From Oxford:
quote:

A sin . . . is an act that specifically violates a religious, ethical, or moral standard (: to marry someone of another faith was considered a sin).
. . .
A crime is any act forbidden by law and punishable upon conviction (: a crime for which he was sentenced to death).

An action can be a sin but not a crime, or a crime but not a sin.

Words are not "pre-defined" what ever that means. Common usage justifies definitions. Do you really think the government should be given the task of punishing sin?

If you call homosexuality a crime, you are not using the customary and usual definition of crime. You are redefining the word crime. Making up your own definitions of words as you go along makes dialogue difficult.



XianJedi -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/31/2005 12:20:19 PM)

quote:

A sin . . . is an act that specifically violates a religious, ethical, or moral standard (: to marry someone of another faith was considered a sin).
. . .
A crime is any act forbidden by law and punishable upon conviction (: a crime for which he was sentenced to death).

According to God, homosexuality is both of those. Neither of those mention anything about MAN'S laws.

quote:

If you call homosexuality a crime, you are not using the customary and usual definition of crime. You are redefining the word crime. Making up your own definitions of words as you go along makes dialogue difficult.

You are the one making up the part about excluding God's law from the idea of "crime" - neither of your definitions do that. When someone mentions "crime", perhaps you should ask what they mean before assuming they are limiting that to man's law.



Veritas -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (7/31/2005 3:46:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: XianJedi

quote:

A sin . . . is an act that specifically violates a religious, ethical, or moral standard (: to marry someone of another faith was considered a sin).
. . .
A crime is any act forbidden by law and punishable upon conviction (: a crime for which he was sentenced to death).

According to God, homosexuality is both of those. Neither of those mention anything about MAN'S laws.

quote:

If you call homosexuality a crime, you are not using the customary and usual definition of crime. You are redefining the word crime. Making up your own definitions of words as you go along makes dialogue difficult.

You are the one making up the part about excluding God's law from the idea of "crime" - neither of your definitions do that. When someone mentions "crime", perhaps you should ask what they mean before assuming they are limiting that to man's law.

Everytime I've heard the word crime used, it has been used to mean a violation of man's laws. Perhaps I should ask next time I hear the word, but perhaps you should do the same.

I didn't want to get bogged down in semantics. I was attempting to answer nativemary's question: "It is a crime in itself and goes unpunished in society and why is that?"

How is this for an answer? Homosexuality is not a crime as far as man's laws are concerned. Society punishes violations of man's laws. It is not the society's responsibility to punish sins.



excel-excel -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/1/2005 12:59:50 AM)

XianJedi
quote:

You have to pre-define "crime" as being only against MAN'S law. I see no justification for that.

The justification is the first ammendment, the sepperation of church and state. The government is not supposed to recognise religions. This is ment to ensure fairness. If crime was based on Gods law then practicing other religions would be a crime. Crime should not be based on God's law because not everyone believes in the Judeo-Christian God.



kh31 -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/1/2005 11:33:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyBird736
you are very correct in this point, and maybe God doesn't bless marriages that do not involve Him, but what does that have to do with the subject being discussed surrounding homosexuality?



Well, I was thinking about some of the christian objections to homosexual marriage and skimming the pages. Someone had mentioned that God doesn't bless homosexual marriages (because they are homosexual, I guess). I wanted to understand why. Well I had to ask if God blessed heterosexual marriages just because they are heterosexual? This objection seems very weak to me. You really do have to define marriage beyond the "union of a man and woman" definition.

Some might argue love, but so did someone else here who seemed to support homosexual marriage. Then there are those heterosexual marriages which are arranged without consent or consideration of the spouses, for money, for immigration, are unfaithful, etc... and to borrow from one of my favorite singers, "what's love got to do with it"? If we insert God in that definition somewhere, then how many marriages out there are really marriages that should be christian defended?

I'm trying to understand how the definition which I hear on christian radio and on this site "between a man and a woman" could be so easily defended and universally accepted when it is so weakly presented and defined? If God blesses the heterosexual marriages of pagans and sinners (and I would dare to say He does) because He blesses the sinful and the righteous, then what's stopping Him from blessing Homosexual marriages (no TOS violation intended)?

I'm not saying He's blessing them because they are right, but to simply say He doesn't bless that marriage seems to have no biblical stand because everyone seems to be blessed at some point and in some way By God on earth regardless of what they are doing when the blessing(s) come. So, does someone still think that God does not bless homosexual marriage, perhaps I can be shown why. Anyone here on this site who knows me knows I'm not hardheaded and can and do learn the errors of my ways. This isn't a challenge, just a real question. Here's my thought process when I try to answer this question: Does he bless the rigtheous? Does he bless the sinner? Does he bless christian marriage? Does he bless pagan marriage? Does he bless homosexual marriage?



XianJedi -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/1/2005 12:51:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: excel-excel

XianJedi
quote:

You have to pre-define "crime" as being only against MAN'S law. I see no justification for that.

The justification is the first ammendment, the sepperation of church and state. The government is not supposed to recognise religions. This is ment to ensure fairness. If crime was based on Gods law then practicing other religions would be a crime. Crime should not be based on God's law because not everyone believes in the Judeo-Christian God.

You are assuming the context.

This discussion is on a Christian board, in the Morality section. There's no reason to assume the context is constitutional legality rather than Christian morality.



XianJedi -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/1/2005 12:55:03 PM)

quote:

Everytime I've heard the word crime used, it has been used to mean a violation of man's laws. Perhaps I should ask next time I hear the word, but perhaps you should do the same.

I wasn't the one with the assumption, I was challenging yours.

quote:

How is this for an answer? Homosexuality is not a crime as far as man's laws are concerned. Society punishes violations of man's laws. It is not the society's responsibility to punish sins.

Yes, that would be better.



Jb_Ca -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/1/2005 6:23:00 PM)

quote:

My personal theory is that sin bents are passed from one generation to another...just original sin is passed...that is why it appears to be genetic.....and maybe it is genetic....but it is still wrong....and we still are saved through Christ....and marked with the indwelling of the Spirit...


Is there Biblical basis for this theory? We do not suffer for the sins of our parents, or our grandparents.

The consequences of sin, however, can effect different generations, as is demonstrated in the Bible.

God bless



Jb_Ca -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/1/2005 7:45:09 PM)

quote:

Someone had mentioned that God doesn't bless homosexual marriages (because they are homosexual, I guess). I wanted to understand why. Well I had to ask if God blessed heterosexual marriages just because they are heterosexual? This objection seems very weak to me.


If God were to bless a same-sex marriage He would contradict Himself and He couldn't stand; an impossible hypothetical situation, of course.

quote:

Then there are those heterosexual marriages which are arranged without consent or consideration of the spouses, for money, for immigration, are unfaithful, etc... and to borrow from one of my favorite singers, "what's love got to do with it"? If we insert God in that definition somewhere, then how many marriages out there are really marriages that should be christian defended?


From the very beginning marriage was to be between a man and a woman. From the very start. Before all of this sin, problems, etc. It hasn't changed. Marriage is still to be between a man and a woman, whom become one flesh.

Your arguement seems to be based upon this statement: " God blesses the heterosexual marriages of pagans and sinners (and I would dare to say He does)" so please expound. How does He bless the marriages of pagans and sinners?

quote:

'm not saying He's blessing them because they are right, but to simply say He doesn't bless that marriage seems to have no biblical stand because everyone seems to be blessed at some point and in some way By God on earth regardless of what they are doing when the blessing(s) come. So, does someone still think that God does not bless homosexual marriage, perhaps I can be shown why. Anyone here on this site who knows me knows I'm not hardheaded and can and do learn the errors of my ways. This isn't a challenge, just a real question. Here's my thought process when I try to answer this question: Does he bless the rigtheous? Does he bless the sinner? Does he bless christian marriage? Does he bless pagan marriage? Does he bless homosexual marriage?


I'm curious where you get this view from - where does it say that blessings come to everyone on the earth? Reality is, the wealth of the heathen is stored up for the rigtheous. Now that being said, God does love everyone on the earth.

Understand something. God DOES NOT bless sin. A homosexual marriage, by very definition, is sin, something that cannot be blessed.

A marriage between a man and a woman is not a sin, rather what God intended.

God bless



SingingSailormoon -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/1/2005 7:54:51 PM)

Your question was answered in your last post, Jb.

Marriage is holy. So it would be blessed, no matter who's getting married. God still wouldn't bless the sins that the couple in question committed in the past/future though.

But, marriage isn't a sin. So. yeah.

Not sure what he meant by pagan marriage.

Since marriage is a function of judaism/christianity/other major religions. But they'd have to be christian, to be blessed, I guess.

It must be awful to be gay though. Since it is in their genes. I'm glad my DNA's normal.



Jb_Ca -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/1/2005 7:58:14 PM)

quote:

Marriage is holy. So it would be blessed, no matter who's getting married. God still wouldn't bless the sins that the couple in question committed in the past/future though.


Marriage as defined by man, or by God?

If you say man, than you can justify your arguement.

If you respond God, as a Christian should, the arguement I presented stands without a response.

quote:

It must be awful to be gay though. Since it is in their genes.


It must be awful to have cancer.

Oh, wait. It is not awful to live a life of victory in Christ. Sick or not. Homosexual or not. Deliverance is found in Jesus, my friend.

God bless



SingingSailormoon -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/1/2005 8:05:56 PM)

I'd rather do it without cancer or a homosexual sex drive though.

And you would too.

The problem is that some people don't have the power to choose.



Jb_Ca -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/1/2005 8:13:32 PM)

quote:

And you would too.


True; and I can't imagine what it's like to be a homosexual who is in constant conflict with their faith and their earthly desires.

However, these desires are not the final answer!

The power to choose life is in the hands of everyone; and with life comes victory.

God bless



SingingSailormoon -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/1/2005 8:20:37 PM)

With life comes victory? With victory comes...blah

Yeah. The right choice is always the best one, but the path to this end is not always clear.



Jb_Ca -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/1/2005 8:27:27 PM)

quote:

With life comes victory? With victory comes...blah

Yeah. The right choice is always the best one, but the path to this end is not always clear.


Firstly, it's nice to see you again SingingSailormoon - I remember you from the old Christianity.com

That said, the right choice certainly isn't always going to be clear. Scripture clearly supports this.

Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them. (Matthew 13:13-15)

Why is the above true? Satan blinds the lost; he doesn't want them to find the Truth, for he knows upon doing so they will have victory.

God bless



SingingSailormoon -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/1/2005 8:34:41 PM)

If everything that you believe is true. Then I'm going to hell. No way around it.

I accept this. Now back to the topic at hand.

Homosexuality is denounced in the bible, so it should be denounced and researched in modern day. So that we can correct the error that nature created in their lost souls.

I pray for a man-made cure to both cancer and homosexuality. So that they may enjoy life before they enjoy in everlasting life, without these horrible burdens that make them outcasts of society. (Not so much cancer, but a few friends' mothers have told me that everyone treats you differently when you have cancer, and that they'd rather be treated normal)

Then again. If society keeps going down the road they're traveling on, it will be morally estute to be an outcast.



Jb_Ca -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/1/2005 8:41:46 PM)

quote:

I accept this. Now back to the topic at hand.

Homosexuality is denounced in the bible, so it should be denounced and researched in modern day. So that we can correct the error that nature created in their lost souls.

I pray for a man-made cure to both cancer and homosexuality. So that they may enjoy life before they enjoy in everlasting life, without these horrible burdens that make them outcasts of society. (Not so much cancer, but a few friends' mothers have told me that everyone treats you differently when you have cancer, and that they'd rather be treated normal)


Sin is a horrible burden, is it not?

It's all right in front of you, my friend - just open your eyes! The victory has been won; burdens are no more.

The burden of cancer and homosexuality has no man-made solution. (Again perhaps cancer being an exception - as in time there's like to be a cure - God Willing).

The burden of sin was lifted in Christ's Sacrifice.

God bless



Veritas -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/2/2005 3:07:25 AM)

Looks like Zach has been released from Love in Action. He's none to pleased that he's become a cause célèbre. He deleted all his old entries. It is little strange that now he almost seems to be defending Love in Action, but I guess his parents are monitoring his journal now, and he's trying not to make waves.

If I were him, I don't think I'd ever be able to trust my parents again.

There was an article about Zach and Love in Action in the July 17, 2005 New York Times. It costs to view the article online, but if you're cheap like I am, check the local library. Most have back issues of the Times. According to the article, the Tennessee Department of Health suspected Love in Action was offering therapy without a license. LiA argued that it was offering spiritual counciling, not therapy. LiA has removed references to therapy from its website -- references which should not have been there in the first place if they were not offering therapy. The article also said LiA does not track its success rate. There is a reason for that.



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