RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (Full Version)

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Veritas -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/2/2005 3:35:10 AM)

Looks like Zach has been released from Love in Action. He's none to pleased that he's become a cause célèbre. He deleted all his old entries. It is little strange that now he almost seems to be defending Love in Action, but I guess his parents are monitoring his journal now, and he's trying not to make waves.

If I were him, I don't think I'd ever be able to trust my parents again.

There was an article about Zach and Love in Action in the July 17, 2005 New York Times. It costs to view the article online, but if you're cheap like I am, check the local library. Most have back issues of the Times. According to the article, the Tennessee Department of Health suspected Love in Action was offering therapy without a license. LiA argued that it was offering spiritual counciling, not therapy. LiA has removed references to therapy from its website -- references which should not have been there in the first place if they were not offering therapy. The article also said LiA does not track its success rate. There is a reason for that.

It is good that what goes on in these places and their effectiveness is being exposed.



Momof2anddog -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/2/2005 6:57:07 AM)

I saw Zach's new blog, Veritas. It's hard to tell how he is feeling about what he has been through. I do feel badly for him that his story has became such a public topic.



silvrstridr -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/2/2005 10:02:48 AM)

We are too accepting of Homosexuality (the sin) as a Christians. We are to Love Homosexuals like any other person with sin. God is specific that he doesn't want it in the church. Churches must NEVER accept the sin of homosexuality, but always accept the sinner. Meaning, a gay person can go to church, but they cannot be a "gay Christian", as, being a Christian, you would know that being gay is a sin, and would therefore either turn straight, or abandon God. There is a difference in the act of being gay, and the thought. A Christian can have lustful thought thowards the same sex, but it is a sin, that he/she should ask repentence for, and attempt to fight out of their mind. However, gay actions, gay relationships, are not tolerable in the church. I will never support churches who allow gay couples to attend while never confronting them about their sin. If they refuse to repent and realize it is a sin, they should be kicked out of the church, otherwise they will pollute the church with sin.



kh31 -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/2/2005 11:31:38 AM)

quote:


Your arguement seems to be based upon this statement: " God blesses the heterosexual marriages of pagans and sinners (and I would dare to say He does)" so please expound. How does He bless the marriages of pagans and sinners?

I'm curious where you get this view from - where does it say that blessings come to everyone on the earth? Reality is, the wealth of the heathen is stored up for the rigtheous. Now that being said, God does love everyone on the earth.

Understand something. God DOES NOT bless sin. A homosexual marriage, by very definition, is sin, something that cannot be blessed.

Well, sinners are blessed on this earth. It says this in the bible and it is clearly visible in the world. One of the best examples I can think of is Psalm 73 which contrasts the success and prosperity of the wicked with the suffering of the righteous. Even without this scripture, the fact that I wake up every day and can see my wife and daughter is a blessing. Many pagans and unbelievers enjoy this same experience with their family and I would call this a blessing for them as well. God also blessed kingdoms in the bible that persecuted His people. Although they paid for such persecutions later. I am not saying they are blessed at some point in time because they are right, I'm just saying it happens and it happens for many reasons.

How many non-christians do you know of that have very good, loving and long lasting marriages that actually brought prosperity and served as an example for others? How do you compare this to christian marriages? I know that christians have a slightly higher divorce rate than non-christians in the US. If we are in the midst of blessings, why do we split while those without blessings (pagans, unbelievers, idolaters, same-sex couples) stay together? This is part of what I need to understand and why I don't automatically say these marriages are not blessed. Now, do sinners have an eternal reward? No. If the only real blessing is eternal reward and being with God (and not prosperity on Earth) then I would agree with you and say that they are in fact not blessed at all and maybe this is where my misunderstanding is. Perhaps it a matter of eternal perspective, not just temporal.

quote:


God bless

God bless you too my friend.



kh31 -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/2/2005 11:36:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veritas
The article also said LiA does not track its success rate. There is a reason for that.

It is good that what goes on in these places and their effectiveness is being exposed.


And if they are in fact hurtful and destroying the minds and lives of people for 'their' vision and perceived correctness, especially if they are lying to achieve this, I hope they are exposed.



kh31 -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/2/2005 11:41:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: silvrstridr

We are too accepting of Homosexuality (the sin) as a Christians. We are to Love Homosexuals like any other person with sin. God is specific that he doesn't want it in the church. Churches must NEVER accept the sin of homosexuality, but always accept the sinner. Meaning, a gay person can go to church, but they cannot be a "gay Christian", as, being a Christian, you would know that being gay is a sin, and would therefore either turn straight, or abandon God. There is a difference in the act of being gay, and the thought. A Christian can have lustful thought thowards the same sex, but it is a sin, that he/she should ask repentence for, and attempt to fight out of their mind. However, gay actions, gay relationships, are not tolerable in the church. I will never support churches who allow gay couples to attend while never confronting them about their sin. If they refuse to repent and realize it is a sin, they should be kicked out of the church, otherwise they will pollute the church with sin.


I am not lying and may God help me in this (I ask Him everyday, a few times a day). I think I will always go to church an adulterer and a luster. I will always go there full of pride and envy. Actions and thoughts, what pollutes a man, what he does or what comes from his heart. If I never act on my lustful and adulterous thoughts (if you don't consider wandering eyes an action), if I never openly belittle, deride, judge and accuse others although my pride and envy do this in my heart, then am I clean even though these thoughts and temptations stem from my heart and mind?



Momof2anddog -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/2/2005 2:23:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: silvrstridr

We are too accepting of Homosexuality (the sin) as a Christians. We are to Love Homosexuals like any other person with sin. God is specific that he doesn't want it in the church. Churches must NEVER accept the sin of homosexuality, but always accept the sinner. Meaning, a gay person can go to church, but they cannot be a "gay Christian", as, being a Christian, you would know that being gay is a sin, and would therefore either turn straight, or abandon God. There is a difference in the act of being gay, and the thought. A Christian can have lustful thought thowards the same sex, but it is a sin, that he/she should ask repentence for, and attempt to fight out of their mind. However, gay actions, gay relationships, are not tolerable in the church. I will never support churches who allow gay couples to attend while never confronting them about their sin. If they refuse to repent and realize it is a sin, they should be kicked out of the church, otherwise they will pollute the church with sin.


I don't think that a church should be encouraged to accept or disallow worshippers based on their sins, past or present.



Jb_Ca -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/2/2005 3:00:49 PM)

quote:

How many non-christians do you know of that have very good, loving and long lasting marriages that actually brought prosperity and served as an example for others? How do you compare this to christian marriages? I know that christians have a slightly higher divorce rate than non-christians in the US. If we are in the midst of blessings, why do we split while those without blessings (pagans, unbelievers, idolaters, same-sex couples) stay together?


Satan deceives and wishes to tear the family unit apart, as he has successfully done in far too many cases. He further wishes to undermine the marriage which God intended on this earth.

Do we agree that marriage was intended to be between a man and a woman?

Furthermore, as stated, God does not bless sin. We can agree on this. God blesses people but not sin. A same-sex marriage is sin - this marriage cannot be blessed.

God bless



Jb_Ca -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/2/2005 3:04:45 PM)

quote:

I don't think that a church should be encouraged to accept or disallow worshippers based on their sins, past or present.


"If thy brother shall sin against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: If he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear, take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he will not hear them, tell it to the Church. But if he does not hear the church, let him be to thee as an heathen man and a publican."
Matthew 18:15-17

If a person in a church who claims to be a Christian (important is this claim, as this applies to 'brothers in Christ') is living in an unrepentant homosexual lifestyle, we are told to tell him the truth. If that doesn't work, take witnesses. If that doesn't work, tell the Church. If he still does not repent, he is to be seen as a heathen - not accepted as a fellow Christian.

God bless



kh31 -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/2/2005 4:55:13 PM)

quote:

Satan deceives and wishes to tear the family unit apart, as he has successfully done in far too many cases. He further wishes to undermine the marriage which God intended on this earth.

JB, I've always had a problem with this type of answer. That Satan has anything to do with christians tearing their own families apart. He sometimes does, but the sad and terrible truth is that we often are on "autopilot" with no intervention or influence and choose that path ourselves.

quote:

Do we agree that marriage was intended to be between a man and a woman?

Yes.

quote:


Furthermore, as stated, God does not bless sin. We can agree on this. God blesses people but not sin. A same-sex marriage is sin - this marriage cannot be blessed.

Perhaps I should have seperated this or made a better distinction. Yes, I agree that God doesn't bless sin, but God may bless parties or individuals in the midst of sin (and again this depends on the perspective you are looking from, because in the eternal sense, the lost pagan is not blessed). When you say this mariage cannot be blessed, perhaps not, but the people in the marriage can receive all kinds of blessings related to their marriage such as a long lasting and loving relationship (is a same-sex marriage not blessed by this?) and prosper very much on Earth, even while they deny God in every way. It is hard, but not impossible, for me to see all this and not call it a blessed marriage, but I do see your reason. I'll go back to that psalm and try to see how I'm looking at this in error if I'm doing so.

quote:


God bless

And may He continue to richly bless you too.



BrainChild -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/3/2005 5:55:35 PM)

Under Old Testament law, homosexuality was a sin just as much as any other.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

But one may argue that that was the Old Testament. We are no longer under the Old Law. This is true, however, God's distaste for this behavior is repeated in the New Testament. It also explains why people begin believing that homosexuality is natural and God is pleased with it. Paul says in Romans 1:

Romans 1:19-20
19)Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Here Paul says that people have no excuse to not know about God (His existence, His power, and His will) because God has made Himself known. Nevertheless, people refused to acknowledge and glorify God. He goes on to say:

Romans 1:24
24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

The key thing here is the terms that he used to explain their continued behavior and the nature of it. Paul says, "God also gave them up..." This means that they refused to acknowledge and glorfy God, so He allowed this sinful and unnatural behavior to continue out of His anger toward them. This does not mean that God accepts this behavior, it means that they have strayed so far from God that He let them stay gone.

26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

He repeats this phrase again, "God gave them up..." This time, Paul more explicitly refers to homosexuality. Woman went against nature. Men left the "natural use" of the woman and burned in their lust one toward another. He concludes by saying again, "God gave them over..." to a reprobate mind to do things that are not convenient.



MeetingPeopleIsEasy -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/5/2005 8:01:37 PM)

I don't believe homosexuality is as black and white as "it is a choice" or "they are born that way."

I believe homosexuals are homosexual for a wide vareity of reasons.

Some have emotional scars that fear them from the opposite sex... say, they were raped when they were young. Some people are homosexuals because of tragedies such as this.

Some people, I believe, really are born attracted to the same sex. I am a former practicing bisexual. I still am attracted to men - it is against God's law, so I don't practice such acts. But I did not choose to be that way, I know that for a fact.

Some probably do choose, to try to be different. However, I believe this is not the rule but the exception.


From my experience as someone attracted to both men and women, I would argue most homosexuals are born that way.

Why? I don't know. Maybe God is testing them. God has his reasons, beyond our comprehension. But I certainly do not believe that every single gay and bi person *chooses* to be that way.



Jb_Ca -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/5/2005 9:08:06 PM)

quote:

JB, I've always had a problem with this type of answer. That Satan has anything to do with christians tearing their own families apart. He sometimes does, but the sad and terrible truth is that we often are on "autopilot" with no intervention or influence and choose that path ourselves.


As I stated, Satan wishes to tear apart the family unit. Indeed, people make mistakes that they shouldn't.

The connection and love between a husband and his wife and their kids is something that Satan focuses on to destroy.

quote:

Perhaps I should have seperated this or made a better distinction. Yes, I agree that God doesn't bless sin, but God may bless parties or individuals in the midst of sin (and again this depends on the perspective you are looking from, because in the eternal sense, the lost pagan is not blessed). When you say this mariage cannot be blessed, perhaps not, but the people in the marriage can receive all kinds of blessings related to their marriage such as a long lasting and loving relationship (is a same-sex marriage not blessed by this?) and prosper very much on Earth, even while they deny God in every way. It is hard, but not impossible, for me to see all this and not call it a blessed marriage, but I do see your reason. I'll go back to that psalm and try to see how I'm looking at this in error if I'm doing so.


Is the fact that two men can marry and stay together for a long time a blessing from God? I personally do not believe so, as God won't bless something that goes against His Word.

Many people who are wicked do prosper on this earth, though - I understand what you are saying.

God bless



SmileyTish -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/10/2005 4:54:47 PM)

quote:

Not if they are Christian.

Homosexual behavior is not the unforgivable sin.


However Paul in scripture calls them "former" homosexuals. In other words they are no longer homosexuals. If you become a Christian and through Christ are able to overcome those choices. Then you are NO longer a homosexual. I am not saying that you are going to be able to overcome this in one day. Alcoholics a lot of times have to struggle for a period of time before they are finally completely delivered.

Homosexuality is a choice. We all have the ability to become homosexuals, whether we want to admit it or feel comfortable with that or not.



pthalomarie -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/12/2005 10:53:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SmileyTish

However Paul in scripture calls them "former" homosexuals.


How do you reach that conclusion?

quote:

In other words they are no longer homosexuals. If you become a Christian and through Christ are able to overcome those choices. Then you are NO longer a homosexual. I am not saying that you are going to be able to overcome this in one day. Alcoholics a lot of times have to struggle for a period of time before they are finally completely delivered.


Bad analogy. Alcoholics never stop being alcoholics; they're simply on the wagon, or off of it.

quote:

Homosexuality is a choice. We all have the ability to become homosexuals, whether we want to admit it or feel comfortable with that or not.


Do you believe that you could become gay at some point in the future?



Jhud -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/12/2005 11:19:43 AM)

quote:

How do you reach that conclusion?


1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God ? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.



rcjames -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/12/2005 1:51:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kh31

I am not lying and may God help me in this (I ask Him everyday, a few times a day). I think I will always go to church an adulterer and a luster. I will always go there full of pride and envy. Actions and thoughts, what pollutes a man, what he does or what comes from his heart. If I never act on my lustful and adulterous thoughts (if you don't consider wandering eyes an action), if I never openly belittle, deride, judge and accuse others although my pride and envy do this in my heart, then am I clean even though these thoughts and temptations stem from my heart and mind?


kh31,

Jesus answered your question;

(Mat 5:27-28) "You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not commit adultery. But I say to you that whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Thanks
RC



GrahamCracker -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/12/2005 2:30:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MeetingPeopleIsEasy

I don't believe homosexuality is as black and white as "it is a choice" or "they are born that way."

I believe homosexuals are homosexual for a wide vareity of reasons.

Some have emotional scars that fear them from the opposite sex... say, they were raped when they were young. Some people are homosexuals because of tragedies such as this.

Some people, I believe, really are born attracted to the same sex. I am a former practicing bisexual. I still am attracted to men - it is against God's law, so I don't practice such acts. But I did not choose to be that way, I know that for a fact.


How do you know you were born that way? Isn't it possible that the influences you experienced are beyond conscience memory? What I am saying is that some influences may be so indirect or faded that people would never recognize it as an influence. I don't remember when I learned to talk but I would never in a million years believe that I had a genetic predisposition to English over Chinese.

Choice is a funny thing too. People typically react rather than choose. That said, I don't think it means there is a deliberate choice but rather a reactionary choice. Our first instincts when young are to become angry when we don't get our own way. Eventually, if not curtailed, it becomes so 2nd nature that some people think they just have a bad temper and cannot get rid of it. They never imagine that some people learned to control their temper.

quote:



Some probably do choose, to try to be different. However, I believe this is not the rule but the exception.

From my experience as someone attracted to both men and women, I would argue most homosexuals are born that way.

Why? I don't know. Maybe God is testing them. God has his reasons, beyond our comprehension. But I certainly do not believe that every single gay and bi person *chooses* to be that way.


A choice even if the choice is not a consciously deliberate one--as I said in a previous paragraph.



unworthyseraphim -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/15/2005 12:47:39 AM)

Perhaps someone could fill me in.

1. What is the youngest age someone may legally marry. I know it varies from State to state, and I think in GA if a pregnancy is involved it can be as low as 14 without parental consent. So generally what is the lowest age with and without parental consent?

2. If this age is somewhere around 15 or 16, then in those cities and states...and now nations I suppose, what is to prevent a man from legally "marrying" his teenage lover, changing what would otherwise be a felony offense of child molestation into legal matrimony? How will the court in those areas be able to say such marriages are legal male/female but illegal still male/male or female/female if one or more of the partners in question is still a legal minor. What if the really forward thinking liberal parents of the "gay" child give their permission for him to wed. If the legal age for marriage with permission is 14 or 15...then things might get real interesting real soon. What happens legally if little Tommy and his adult friend take holiday to a little chapel in Canada?

3. I don't see how senarios like this can keep from happening where gay marriage is approved. I don't see how the courts will be able to deny same sex marriage that involve minors if in all other particulars they meet the standards for legal marriage for heterosex minors.

Thoughts?



JesusLivesInYou -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/15/2005 12:58:06 AM)

My opinion: If a homosexual is part of a Christian denomination that overall forbids homosexuality, they should try to change if they want to stay part of that faith, and they shouldn't marry other homosexuals through denominations that forbid it. If a homosexual is part of a religion that allows it, I see no problem.

unworthyseraphim, not too long ago there was a news story about a 22 year old man having a 13 year old wife. The state escapes me however.



SmileyTish -> RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread (8/15/2005 9:05:20 AM)

quote:



ORIGINAL: SmileyTish

However Paul in scripture calls them "former" homosexuals.

How do you reach that conclusion?


I Corinthians 6:9-11

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be decieved: Neither the sexually immoral nor diloaters nor adulterers nor mal prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kindom of God. And that is what some you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the nam of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

quote:



quote:

In other words they are no longer homosexuals. If you become a Christian and through Christ are able to overcome those choices. Then you are NO longer a homosexual. I am not saying that you are going to be able to overcome this in one day. Alcoholics a lot of times have to struggle for a period of time before they are finally completely delivered.

Bad analogy. Alcoholics never stop being alcoholics; they're simply on the wagon, or off of it.


1. See the above verse.
2. I know several people (my husband included) who could argue with you by their witness.

quote:


quote:

Homosexuality is a choice. We all have the ability to become homosexuals, whether we want to admit it or feel comfortable with that or not.

Do you believe that you could become gay at some point in the future?


Yes. If I were to walk away from God and following the logic of Romans 1 that could be one of the sins that I become guilty of while denying God. However, what I am trying to say is that everyone has tendencies toward certain sins because of their differences in personalities. But the potential to commit any sin is in every person. Because guess what? We are totally depraved.



Armadillo in Texas -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/15/2005 1:45:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SingingSailormoon
It must be awful to be gay though. Since it is in their genes. I'm glad my DNA's normal.


LOL . . . take it from me, it is actually not THAT bad.



Fritzpw_Admin -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/15/2005 2:23:04 PM)

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Cylun -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/17/2005 11:01:41 PM)

It is sadly human nature to fear what is different. Religion has been justified to argue so many points. We need tolerance. We need understanding. We need friendship. We need love. We do not need people saying you will go to hell for being homosexual. Can you imagine the pain of a devout follower of god who also is in love(not eros, a greater and purer love) with someone of the same sex? Being told that they are destined to go to hell, and that they are essentialy nonhumans. The radical and prejudiced religious people who condemn people for such things are the true sinners.



stooge -> RE: The Rules at "Ex-Gay" Ministries (8/17/2005 11:26:50 PM)

I believe homosexuality is a choice. Here is my reasoning: God makes no mistakes. God tells us homosexuality is a sin. God tells us that he created woman for man. God would not go against His own design for the world.

I think a lot of homosexuality comes from the environment. And Satan has been working hard to brainwash us into believing homosexuality is ok because God makes people that way. Just look at how many television shows have a homosexual agenda.

Plus, there are a lot of people who used to be gay, but saw the truth and are now straight. If they were "born gay" they would not be able to change like this. I think people who used to be gay, but have turned from sin and accepted Jesus as their Saviour should be able to take any part in churches that they wish. After all, everyone is a sinner, and one sin is no worse than another in God's eyes.

Stooge



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