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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 1/24/2008 11:30:11 AM
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henny
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Yet, if someone is defining themselves by the label homosexual, there is an overt implication that lust is involved. If the "attraction" involves the development of fantasies entertaining the thought of having sex with another person, then lust is involved. I think this is what Chrsit was speaking to you when He said that if you have lusted over someone, you have committed adultery.
Does this mean that if someone defines themselves as heterosexual lust is also involved?
It seems like you would have to concede this as it really doesn't seem to be a gay specific thing. Using this definition of lust, I imagine every (honest) guy on here has committed lust for a woman at some point. Even if they never acted on it or latter married her.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 1/24/2008 11:45:48 AM
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zamdad
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quote:
ORIGINAL: henny
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Yet, if someone is defining themselves by the label homosexual, there is an overt implication that lust is involved. If the "attraction" involves the development of fantasies entertaining the thought of having sex with another person, then lust is involved. I think this is what Chrsit was speaking to you when He said that if you have lusted over someone, you have committed adultery.
Does this mean that if someone defines themselves as heterosexual lust is also involved?
It seems like you would have to concede this as it really doesn't seem to be a gay specific thing. Using this definition of lust, I imagine every (honest) guy on here has committed lust for a woman at some point. Even if they never acted on it or latter married her.
Until homosexuality gained public recognition and acceptance, no one ever had to refer to themselves as heterosexual. Heterosexuality has always been considered normal. Are there any straight people who identify themselves as heterosexual or straight unless asked?
If I'm going to concede anything it is the fact that men and women lust after each other. Go back and read my post that gives the readers digest version of my story and how my perspective has been shaped.
Seems to me that homosexuals place such an importance on their preferance for sexual behavior, that they wish to be identified for this preferred behavior.
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“A dead thing goes with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.”
G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 1/24/2008 12:00:09 PM
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henny
Posts: 1197
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Seems to me that homosexuals place such an importance on their preferance for sexual behavior, that they wish to be identified for this preferred behavior.
I disagree. Most gay people I know don't wish to be identified only for their sexual behavior, nor does labeling themselves as "gay" mean that they are only obsessed with sex and that's all they wish to define themselves by. The label itself is just a necessary practical concern. If they didn't have some label by which to define themselves which took their sexual preference into account, how would they ever meet anyone else like them?
If heterosexuals were only 5% of the population you would need a similar label as well. Imagine how difficult dating would be if 95% of the women you meet aren't attracted to men. You'd need some sort of label to find the remaining 5%.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 1/24/2008 2:39:23 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: henny
The label itself is just a necessary practical concern. If they didn't have some label by which to define themselves which took their sexual preference into account, how would they ever meet anyone else like them?
And the reason they are looking for folks with the same perversion?
Possibly seeking someone for sex.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 1/24/2008 3:27:01 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
ORIGINAL: henny
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Seems to me that homosexuals place such an importance on their preferance for sexual behavior, that they wish to be identified for this preferred behavior.
I disagree. Most gay people I know don't wish to be identified only for their sexual behavior, nor does labeling themselves as "gay" mean that they are only obsessed with sex and that's all they wish to define themselves by. The label itself is just a necessary practical concern. If they didn't have some label by which to define themselves which took their sexual preference into account, how would they ever meet anyone else like them?
If heterosexuals were only 5% of the population you would need a similar label as well. Imagine how difficult dating would be if 95% of the women you meet aren't attracted to men. You'd need some sort of label to find the remaining 5%.
Henny, while they may say they don't wish to be identified for their behavior, they are, by adopting the homosexual label, identifying themselves by their sexual preferance. Because homosexuals are, possibly, only 5% of the population, they have to identify themselves in this manner to find partners willing to engage in the same preferred behavior. Among the rest of the male/female population the question is normally resolved with married or single. Unfortunately, because bthe media has led us into thinking that the gay population is larger than it is and that it's normal, the question has become married, single or gay.
LIke RC said, so they can meet someone with the same perversion?
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“A dead thing goes with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.”
G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 1/24/2008 7:26:17 PM
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henny
Posts: 1197
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: henny
The label itself is just a necessary practical concern. If they didn't have some label by which to define themselves which took their sexual preference into account, how would they ever meet anyone else like them?
And the reason they are looking for folks with the same perversion?
Possibly seeking someone for sex.
Thanks
RC
Of course they're seeking sex, among other things.
That's not really something that is unique to homosexuality, though, it's more of a human thing. When heterosexuals date eachother usually some form of sexual attraction is invovled, and the possible event of "sex" occuring at some point down the road is posited. Even if they are looking for a mate in a perfectly God fearing manner, and both parties are fully committed to waiting until they are married, it will cross their minds that if marriage does take place there's going to be some sex occuring at some point. And I'm sure you aren't naive enough to believe that sexual desire isn't one "motivator" (among many, which include companionship, love, procreation, etc) to romantic relationships. If either party isn't clued into this little fact, they're going to be totally shocked and horrified on their wedding night. And it's going to be somewhat a stumbling block if either party in the relationship has absolutely no sexual attraction to their other.
Unless the rumors are true and fundamentalist don't, in fact, have sex, but rather reproduce via the stork method. 
quote:
Henny, while they may say they don't wish to be identified for their behavior, they are, by adopting the homosexual label, identifying themselves by their sexual preferance.
It's not an all encompassing identity, though, just a practical and entirely necessary label which refers to one small facet of their existence. All the label says is "I am attracted to and prefer to have sex with the same sex as my own." It doesn't say "I love sex so much that I'm making it my entire life!" Again, if the situation were reversed and heterosexuals made up 5% of the population and homosexuals made up 95%, all heterosexuals would have to have some sort of self identifying label to find people they are attracted to. However, merely identifying themselves as "heterosexual" doesn't mean that sex is the end all be all of their existence, just that being attracted to members of the opposite sex is one facet of their existence.
It's the same with any label. It'd be like saying, because a guy worked as a plumber for a few months and defined himself as a "plumber" for that duration his entire life is defined by an unwholesome lust for cleaning peoples toilets. It's not a logical conlcusion to make, as the label "plumber" is just one small facet of his existence which is necessary for entirely practical reasons.
Obviously, according to traditional interpretations of the Bible Homosexuality is perverse, so I'm not interested in arguing that. All I'm saying is that the label itself really has nothing to do with how much sex they have or with whether or not sex is the single defining aspect of their identity and lives.
< Message edited by henny -- 1/24/2008 9:16:44 PM >
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 1/24/2008 11:50:30 PM
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Marksman
Posts: 271
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From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
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quote:
For anyone truly interested in this subject (homosexuals, family of homosexuals, pastors), you aren't going to get an answer from this forum that is not condemning.
I am sorry you see things that way. In my work with young men and women who wanted to be other than homosexual, the most often comment I received was that I was the first person who did not condemn them.
This fact made it possible for them to face up to the reality of their existence and to begin the path to freedom. Ignoring the obvious is not going to help anyone. As Mr Bean said, I loved them continually and without condemnation despite their sin. That is why they were able to talk freely and go on a path to freedom.
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My belief is, as a homosexual, that it is not a choice, but it is just how we are born.
The only problem with this idea is that there is no evidence for it. Even the homosexual press here in Australia have gone to print and said the idea is utter nonsense. (edited tos 5)
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For the "SSA" sufferer who is never able to rid him/her self of their desires and become attracted to the opposite sex (for whatever reason), this happy ending is completely denied them (or at least on earth anyway). All they have really is a life of solitude with the hope of going to heaven once they finally die.
I don't find anywhere in scripture where getting married, having children and a satisfying sex life is a given for the chrsitian.
quote:
Do you have an opinion on biological causes of same-sex attraction? I mentioned some things in the other thread, but I don't feel like restating everything.
The homosexual community has been trying for about forty years to prove the hormonal/gene causation for homosexuality. As they have been announced, each one has sank without a trace as every time they pronounce a breakthrough, they say it is a theory, not a proven fact.
It is important to them to support the "born that way" theory as it means that the condition is fixed and the way they live is legitimate so they should be treated no differently to anyone else.
Everyone I have personally counselled and every book I have read about it all say the same thing. It is environmentally engendered mainly through a deficient relationship with the primary care giver that causes rejection. After dozens of pieces of research all coming to the same conclusion, one tends to be convinced.
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One can be gay and still exist in a monogomous relationship -or even hold off on sex until they meet the right person
Which planet do you live on? Again from research and my own experience in counselling, homosexuals masturbate more than the average, many admit to three or four times a day; once they experience their first sex with a man, the majority seek it out on a daily basis. I have read a diary of a homosexual who had sex with 32 different men in one weekend. Homosexuals in a relationship admit to having sex regularly with other men.
quote:
I have two questions, First do you know of any documented cases where someone is truly female and truly has mail genitalia? In all of the cases I have heard of, they have non identifiable genitalia i.e. neither truly male or female
I didn't know that you could get them to order?
quote:
Seems to me that homosexuals place such an importance on their preferance for sexual behavior, that they wish to be identified for this preferred behavior.
It is central to their identity. As a heterosexual, sex is not central to my identity. I am a son of God, a father, a husband, a grandfather, a cricket tragic, a teacher. The sex thing happens when it happens or it doesn't happen.
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Because homosexuals are, possibly, only 5% of the population,
Homosexuals tell us that it is 10% and that 10% of your church membership is homosexual. This figure was based on Kinsey's 1957 research which was loaded with inaccuracies. More reliable research has put it at 1.8-2%.
< Message edited by Kath -- 1/25/2008 1:43:16 AM >
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 1/25/2008 12:13:51 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1668
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quote:
When heterosexuals date eachother usually some form of sexual attraction is invovled, and the possible event of "sex" occuring at some point down the road is posited.
What? You're kidding?  Seems that since Adam was introduced to Eve, this has been normal. Now you, Henny, and the gay lobby come along and tell us that we must consider sexual arousal to same sex persons as normal too.
quote:
And I'm sure you aren't naive enough to believe that sexual desire isn't one "motivator" (among many, which include companionship, love, procreation, etc) to romantic relationships.
Funny you should use the word procreation in this statement as this is the one thing that is physically impossible for homosexual couples. Instead, they have to recruit and train new members into their community. What better way than to "deucate" them; fill their heads full of knowledge and play on their emotions to get them to expose themselves to sexual exploitation. IN a sense, it's reproduction via the stork method.
quote:
Obviously, according to traditional interpretations of the Bible Homosexuality is perverse, so I'm not interested in arguing that. All I'm saying is that the label itself really has nothing to do with how much sex they have or with whether or not sex is the single defining aspect of their identity and lives.
Why are you not interested in arguing the one thing that has held true throughout time? I'm not saying that the label has anything to do with how much sex they have either. What I am saying is that such a high priority is placed on sexuality, that they choose to be identifed by their sexual proclivities. I also know that we all have many other aspects of our lives that we use to identify ourselves. We do this because these are the things we find important. With homosexuals, this lifestyle is so important that they often identify this before family, career, or other interests.
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“A dead thing goes with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.”
G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 1/25/2008 9:24:13 AM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2474
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From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
The homosexual community has been trying for about forty years to prove the hormonal/gene causation for homosexuality. As they have been announced, each one has sank without a trace as every time they pronounce a breakthrough, they say it is a theory, not a proven fact.
It is important to them to support the "born that way" theory as it means that the condition is fixed and the way they live is legitimate so they should be treated no differently to anyone else.
Everyone I have personally counselled and every book I have read about it all say the same thing. It is environmentally engendered mainly through a deficient relationship with the primary care giver that causes rejection. After dozens of pieces of research all coming to the same conclusion, one tends to be convinced.
I meantioned specific instances up above somewhere. I'm not talking about a gay gene. I'm talking about organic problems that have been documented in some homosexuals, and some of them were actually able to be fixed by HRT, then they no longer had SSA. The other stuff I mentioned was AIS. But my point was that is HAS been proven that some people who have SSA have problems with their bodies. See the example of the gay, lactating man who had estrogen levels that were of a woman (one reason why he started to lactate one day); they gave him HRT (testosterone) and he magically started being attracted to the opposite sex. There ARE instances where you can find an biological problem that messed them up. I don't know how many gay people are like that in the world however. I highly doubt people will try to test that in homosexuals.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 1/25/2008 11:40:30 AM
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zamdad
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quote:
You're putting words in my mouth and completely ignoring my argument.
No, Henny, your argument seems to be that homosexuality is a normal part of God's design. You don't want to discuss what scripture has to say about the matter. It seems that you'd rather outright dismiss scripture and advocate postmodern thinking that encourages people to pursue pleasure, feel happy, no matter the consequence.
Isn't my basis for homosexuals identifying themselves by their sexual proclivities obvious? I already explained it in an earlier post. As for it being true for every homosexual. seems to me that if they use the label, among the many labels they may have for themselves, it ranks as an important factor in their life and they wish to be identified for this preferred behavior.
As you indicated, Henny, we all use labels. For me, I am a Christian, a husband, a father, and a police officer. These are the labels I use and the order in which I use them because of their rank in importance. I have other labels I can use. I am a hockey player, a softball player, a hunter, a transplanted city slicker. I know that many homosexuals have other labels, doctors, lawyers, accountants, plumbers, etc. People tend to identify themselves by the things that give them identity. If they are using the term homosexual to form their identity, don't you think it comes from great importance?
Solo_soprano,
You seem to be bent on finding a way to justify sexual deviance; to explain it away. No one is assuming that homosexuals are jumping from bed to bed. Deflecting the argument to the assumptions draws away from the point that sexual behavior outside God's design is wrong no matter what. All the attempts to find biological causes is nothing more than finding words to fill our ears with what we want to hear.
_____________________________
“A dead thing goes with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.”
G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 1/25/2008 12:20:30 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2474
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quote:
Solo_soprano,
You seem to be bent on finding a way to justify sexual deviance; to explain it away. No one is assuming that homosexuals are jumping from bed to bed. Deflecting the argument to the assumptions draws away from the point that sexual behavior outside God's design is wrong no matter what. All the attempts to find biological causes is nothing more than finding words to fill our ears with what we want to hear
No, I'm saying that SSA is sometimes founded because our bodies have problems. I said numerous times that homosexuality is a sinful choice. SSA some people cannot choose to have. People definitely choose to be homosexual.
My point is that people can't seem to be able to fathom that certain individuals have a biological problem. I never said they all did. But I'd appreciate if you read what's there and don't put words in the posts that aren't there. If you don't believe in biology (in this sense), maybe just don't read my posts on this aspect of SSA. I know some people don't believe in these kinds of problems, even if they saw the tests themselves. Everyone has this right. I'm interested in this because biology is my career and I've seen this, and I know others here have done some research on this on their own and are willing to discuss it. If you don't believe it, just don't reply then. But don't put extra words there that I never said.
PS I was responging to what rc said in my last post.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 1/25/2008 12:29:32 PM
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Leon_Figg3
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I have avoided posting to this thread lately because I felt I misread and misunderstood why people were raising questions as they were.
The bottom line though is that you can indeed seek and find some sort of scientific reason to possibly explain some aspect of why we humans tend to do what we tend to do, if you are so inclined. However, sometimes human behavior devies explanations of any kind.
How we relate to ourselves and to one another may very well be one of those areas where science totally fails to explain, or answer the question-Why. It fails because there are far too many variables. Variables that can not be reproduced in a lab or accurately accounted for through questinaires and surveys.
As for us Christians and those who deal with sexual issues, we all have a tendency to see sexual issues through the prism of sex. Sex is a natural part of our lives. Sex, sexual identity and gender identity was one of the first issues that Man was made aware of in the Garden of Eden after taking a bite of forbidden fruit. The problem of sex, for all of us, tends to arise in the importance we place on it and how closely what we do sexually, identifes who we are. Not to mention how we tend to see others as a result of how we may tend to see ourselves, in regard to sex.
Now, there are homosexuals, especially those who tend to be in people's faces, and in the limelight about their sexual identity, who do seem to demand that they be seen and identified by the kind sex that they are apparently into and the kind of people they choose as sexual partners. If they do not, there are plenty of others, of like mind, who will and do.
The challenge for Christians (IMO because I am not a counselor or a person who has had much interaction with homosexuals, that I know of, but none the less has a heart for them and others who have had to deal with sexual issues) is to seperate the sin-the behavior- from the person's identity with it.
< Message edited by Leon_Figg3 -- 1/26/2008 10:33:38 AM >
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 1/25/2008 11:35:54 PM
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Marksman
Posts: 271
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From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
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quote:
What is your basis for saying this?
Can I suggest this scenario as an answer. When I am introduced to someone I don't say "I am a heterosexual", I might say "I am a retired schoolteacher." When a person who is homosexual says it as a first up statement because they want you to know who you are dealing with. In other words, the person is going to have a different view on a lot of things, especially relationships so don't bother asking him certain questions i.e. "are you married?"
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Do you believe that this is true for every homosexual?
No, because many of them hate being homosexual. but in all probability it more than likely applies to most due to the fact that homosexuality is a mind thing first and foremost. The leader of Teen Challenge here told me that the most powerful sex organ is the brain.
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But my point was that is HAS been proven that some people who have SSA have problems with their bodies.
That may be the case but as in all research, one or two examples do not prove anything. As in all acceptable research, there has to be a provable trend with large numbers. I have pointed this out before as people have said I don't accept your evidence because my brother....suggesting that their experience with one brother is more conclusive than a 2 year study with 200 homosexuals.
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I know gay people who are monogomous and don't have sex until they get married (so they say), just like (a very few) heterosexuals can today. And I really think there aren't many heterosexuals left who are that way. I understand homosexuality is wrong, but they aren't all sleeping around with everyone they can find. I guess, by the looks of this, everyone just assumes all of them are sexually active and in a different person's bed every night.
Unfortunately the evidence is quite different. First I have to ask "how many homosexuals do you know who are monogomous until they get married."
Your statement that there are very few heterosexuals left that way again is quite untrue. Research conducted By the Barna Group showed that 54% of single christian teens had no sexual experience.
The evidence is that most homosexuals would, given the chance, be in someone's bed every night for a night of passion.That is why they go to various venues where they can get a pick up and have sex, very often with a total stranger and very often in the dark and not having any idea who they are having sex with.
I feel we really need to get away from this idea that the nice young man we know who attends church, or a "straight acting" homosexual neighbour or brother is indicative of the homosexual way of life. The fact is that homosexuality is the work and domain of Satan and has become a stronghold for him. You only have to go to their events and venues to see and feel satanic activity. It is his influence which drives the homosexual urge in a person and until we see it as a spiritual battle we will be unable to make a difference to anyone caught up in the homosexual way of life.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2008 9:44:07 PM
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henny
Posts: 1197
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From: MN
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quote:
Your statement that there are very few heterosexuals left that way again is quite untrue. Research conducted By the Barna Group showed that 54% of single christian teens had no sexual experience.
Single Christian teens is a pretty selective demographic.
Surveys vary, obviously, but in general most tend to report that a the vast majority of people will have sex before marriage.
Here's just a couple:
http://www.publichealthreports.org/userfiles/122_1/12_PHR122-1_73-78.pdf
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16287113/
Plus 54% is a pretty paultry number, that means 46% of Christian teens have had sex. And Christian teens are supposed to be the Godly ones. If they can only manage an abstenance rate of 54%, then I can only imagine what it is amongst others.
< Message edited by henny -- 1/26/2008 9:50:50 PM >
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2008 10:32:32 PM
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henny
Posts: 1197
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From: MN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marksman
Can I suggest this scenario as an answer. When I am introduced to someone I don't say "I am a heterosexual", I might say "I am a retired schoolteacher." When a person who is homosexual says it as a first up statement because they want you to know who you are dealing with. In other words, the person is going to have a different view on a lot of things, especially relationships so don't bother asking him certain questions i.e. "are you married?"
This is absurd.
I have never met someone who says "Hello, I'm a homosexual! when introducing themselves to people. Unless they're really obnoxious or something. Most people never even bring it up unless the situation calls for it or someone asks them.
People usually never announce themselves as "heterosexual," but why would they have to? Heterosexuality is usually just assumed, so there's no reason for people to "Come out" as straight. Unless maybe they're in a gay bar or something.
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very often in the dark and not having any idea who they are having sex with.
LOL
What, are gay people adverse to light bulbs now? 
It's like you got all your knowledge of homosexuality from watching that Al Pacino movie "Cruising" or from 1950s propaganda films.
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I feel we really need to get away from this idea that the nice young man we know who attends church, or a "straight acting" homosexual neighbour or brother is indicative of the homosexual way of life.
The problem is that there is no homosexual "way of life" anymore than there is a heterosexual "way of life." All people will vary. The only thing that you can say with certainty about all homosexuals is that they are attracted to the same sex, other than that they are going to vary from person to person.
I've known a lot of homosexual people, and like anything, it runs the gamut. Yes, I've met plenty who have a lot of sex, but at the same time I've met plenty heterosexuals who have a lot of sex. Just as I've also known many gay people who don't sleep around and who are in monogamous relationships. It's kind of absurd to say "homosexuals are this way" or "homosexuals do this" as there's going to be variety within the group.
I do think you need to be aware of how your position (i.e. as some sort of Christian counselor) is going to be kind of "Self-selecting" in terms of the gay people you are going to meet. Obviously if they are coming to you for counseling they are already unhappy, but this doesn't mean that you can conclude from this that all homosexuals are unhappy or like the people you talk to.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 1/26/2008 11:16:31 PM
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Veritas
Posts: 519
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marksman
quote:
What is your basis for saying this?
Can I suggest this scenario as an answer. When I am introduced to someone I don't say "I am a heterosexual", I might say "I am a retired schoolteacher." When a person who is homosexual says it as a first up statement because they want you to know who you are dealing with. In other words, the person is going to have a different view on a lot of things, especially relationships so don't bother asking him certain questions i.e. "are you married?"
If the subject of sexuality has already been broached, I might mention that I am homosexual, but I've never mentioned my sexuality upon meeting someone. I don't know any homosexual who has. I can't say it has never happened, but it's certainly not typical for a homosexual to blurt out that they are gay upon first meeting someone. Frankly, I can't imagine such a scenario.
The fact that you can imagine a scenario where homosexuals act out of character proves you have a very vivid imagination, but proves nothing about homosexuals.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 1/27/2008 3:19:31 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1668
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quote:
People usually never announce themselves as "heterosexual," but why would they have to?
Because for centuries it's been considered normal. Now we're being asked to redefine normal.
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The problem is that there is no homosexual "way of life" anymore than there is a heterosexual "way of life."
Give me a break! How can you say this, Henny? While homosexuals might live normal lives in every aspect, this area is outside the norm. Now they want protection under the guise of civil rights for their preferred sexual behavior.
I will agree with you. Henny, that the stereotypes don't do anything valuable for anyone. Yet, this is a Christian forum. Sex outside the confines of God's design for it is striclty prohibited. While there are many who sin sexually, homosexual sex seems to get more attention because it's not understood very well, it's sensationalized by the media and in gossip circles, and homosexuals have brough attention to themselves by pushing their agenda on society at large. You seem to be taking a stance for homosexuality and doing a very good job of walking a fine line to avoid getting TOS'd. Usually you have very good arguments. But, you seem to really be scratching lately.
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“A dead thing goes with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.”
G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 1/27/2008 9:26:50 AM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2474
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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quote:
Give me a break! How can you say this, Henny? While homosexuals might live normal lives in every aspect, this area is outside the norm. Now they want protection under the guise of civil rights for their preferred sexual behavior.
I will agree with you. Henny, that the stereotypes don't do anything valuable for anyone. Yet, this is a Christian forum. Sex outside the confines of God's design for it is striclty prohibited. While there are many who sin sexually, homosexual sex seems to get more attention because it's not understood very well, it's sensationalized by the media and in gossip circles, and homosexuals have brough attention to themselves by pushing their agenda on society at large. You seem to be taking a stance for homosexuality and doing a very good job of walking a fine line to avoid getting TOS'd. Usually you have very good arguments. But, you seem to really be scratching lately.
I agree with Henny. I see a lot of stereotypes about homosexuals in this thread, and I'm not sure if it's because of people's personal experiences or what, but I've never seen homosexuals like some of you are trying to make them seem. And I've certainly never met a homosexual around here who just announces it upon meeting them; most of them never announce it at all.
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 1/27/2008 11:25:43 AM
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GeorgiaNerd
Posts: 206
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: UGA... RIP UGA VI
Status: offline
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I'm with Henny, too. There is a difference between most homosexuals and sex offenders or people who are desperate for change. Also, the stereotypes in the media are just as bad as those made by some Christians. I'm not saying that homosexuality is "normal" at all. Just that all of the stereotypes are damaging.
By the way, I don't mention my asexuality to anyone upon introduction, either. I always answer truthfully when asked, and have told most of my good friends. It's really on a need-to-know basis, except that I haven't told my family yet.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 1/27/2008 10:08:53 PM
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henny
Posts: 1197
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: MN
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
The problem is that there is no homosexual "way of life" anymore than there is a heterosexual "way of life."
Give me a break! How can you say this, Henny? While homosexuals might live normal lives in every aspect, this area is outside the norm. Now they want protection under the guise of civil rights for their preferred sexual behavior.
Again you're changing the subject completely. When did I bring up civil rights?
I'm simply saying that stereotypes don't work, and thus homosexuals aren't all one homogeneous identity any more than heterosexuals are (and from what I know of you I suspect you'd agree with me on this at a basic level, so I'm not sure why we are arguing). So my point is that there isn't any one "homosexual way of life" -I'm not sure what this has to do with civil rights or the rightness or wrongness of homosexual behavior.
If Christians really want to appeal to homosexuals in a loving manner, the best way that they are going to be able to do this is by treating them as individuals, each with their own unique histories and identities, and not painting them all with a bunch of completely ignorant stereotypes -i.e. that they all are out having sex with strangers every night (in the dark ) , are masturbating 4 times a day, had terrible relationships with their fathers, were molested, are molesting children, etc, etc,
quote:
I will agree with you. Henny, that the stereotypes don't do anything valuable for anyone. Yet, this is a Christian forum. Sex outside the confines of God's design for it is striclty prohibited.
This is true, but one can be against something that is wrong for the right reasons, just as one can also be against something that is wrong for all the wrong reasons. Telling the difference between the two is something that I think a lot of Christians get confused about when it comes to the issue of homosexuality.
I think too often Christians see that the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin, and because of this they become a bit blinded, tending to accept anything said about homosexuals without much scrutiny as long as it casts them in a negative light. This sort of attitude breeds ignorance (and when I say "ignorance" I mean it merely as "lack of knowledge" and not "stupidity"), and is completely counterproductive to all involved (plus I think it also tends to dehumanize homosexuals, setting them up as untouchable "others," as oppossed to just normal people struggling with sin like anyone else).
Yes, as people have said several times on this forum, it is impossible to witness to someone in sin without offending them, as in such cases what the Bible says to them will be naturally offensive. However, there is a difference between offending with "Biblical truth" and offending with sheer ignorance. If your argument is going to be "Homosexuality is wrong because most homosexuals have constant sex with strangers and masturbate 4 times a day," you've basically already lost the argument spiritually speaking as all the gay people who this description doesn't fit are going to dismiss you outright as whack jobs -and rightly so (and I'm using a hypothetical "you" here, I don't mean you specifically, zamdad).
You can say that it is necessary to mount these sorts of political campaigns and arguments because homosexual lobbies are pushing a specific agenda, and thus you will have to fight fire with fire, but I think if Christians want to get anywhere in terms of what actually matters they are going to have to realize that the political battle has already been lost. People will probably strongly disagree with that statement, but I think it's true. In 50 years gay marriage will probably be accepted in most places, and because of the way segments of the church is fighting its political battles I think they are insuring that they will lose the spiritual battle as well (Which is the only one that really matters, anyway).
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You seem to be taking a stance for homosexuality and doing a very good job of walking a fine line to avoid getting TOS'd.
Is this a sly hint to the mods to give henny the infamous "do not reply to this message in this thread" message?
For what it's worth I really have no interest in changing anyone's mind on the rightness or wrongness (or "normalness" or "strangeness") of homosexuality. If people think it's a sin, or abnormal, or morally wrong, I'm perfectly fine with that, and quite frankly, I really don't think there is anything I or anyone could say to change their minds.
But, it all goes back to the issue of "being against homosexuality" versus "being against homosexuality in an ignorant and hamfisted way." I'm perfectly fine with the first, but when I see the second I'll speak up (unless I'm bored with the topic or something, of course. My interest level tends to wax and wane).
quote:
Usually you have very good arguments. But, you seem to really be scratching lately.
Well, I'm sorry that I'm disappointing you, but for what it's worth I've always respected you. I rarely agree with you, but you've always seemed the most sensible person who posts with any frequency on this thread.
< Message edited by henny -- 1/27/2008 10:42:21 PM >
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Hell is other Christians.
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