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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 2/4/2008 3:48:40 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano21
I've looked at it from an "unbiological" side for most of my life. And it seems like most of this thread has been that way. Most seem reluctant either to believe anything of it or want to discuss it in an educated way. I don't understand why it's okay for people to ignore that issue, but if I try to bring it up I'm ignoring everything else.  I see the big picture, but that doesn't mean that discussing the different causations is inherently wrong. I hold that same-sex attraction is not always a choice (not sure if it ever is), but homosexuality is (as far as the definitions of this thread goes).
It doesn't have anything to do with trying to be smart so much as it has to do with figuring out things to try to help. If my best friend X over here has estrogen and progesterone much like that of a pregnant woman and has SSA, I might be happy if researchers recognized this and got his levels back to where a man's is supposed to be-- where he'd be "normal." Science isn't bad all the time; science and Christianity can go together. I haven't seen anyone here say that science makes homosexuality right for some people; I'm not even saying that. But I also do not think there's anything wrong with discussing science as it applies to attraction. I don't see the harm in discussing the problems that can arise from our imperfect physical state.
I guess I'm just wrong for asking about a certain aspect of it, while everyone else is okay because they don't want to discuss this one (but want to discuss only what they believe). Oh well.
Well homosexuality is a sin. SSA can be a sin depending on the thoughts brought about by SSA. Where does this sin come from? From the sin nature that we are all born with.
How does one resist this temptation; by believing the Word of God which says;
(1Co 10:13) There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Believers can resist this temptation, non-Believers is another situation.
So those who cannot overcome this temptation are not Believers; period. No matter what the excuse; they are not choldren of God. Now if they claim to be than they will fall under this passage;
(Mat 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
So the argument you offer is simply a strayman excuse for serving one's flesh and sinning.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my new book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com/
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 2/4/2008 5:47:34 PM
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solo_soprano22
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RC, I'm not sure if you're ignoring my points purposefully. If you are, that's cool. It doesn't seem like you believe in what I'm talking about that much (honestly), but some people do.
If someone actually wants to discuss the actual issues I'm talking about, I'll engage them in conversation. I can only explain what I mean so many times, but I see from what some others have said that some people do get the issues I've brought up and understand them (and have seen them before apparently  ). I can't start a separate thread for physiologically-based same-sex attraction; I'd love to, but I can only discuss it here. Maybe if you don't believe in that, just don't reply to me anymore. I get what you're saying, but it just seems like you either don't believe in these problems anyway so you don't care to glance at them or that you dismiss bodily problems altogether. Anyone can do that, but I'm just looking to discuss this aspect. Maybe if you don't want to, then don't. Ignore me.
< Message edited by solo_soprano21 -- 2/4/2008 5:55:47 PM >
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 2/4/2008 6:04:42 PM
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GeorgiaNerd
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quote:
Which is why I asked the question, is it attraction or arousal?
Good distinction. We know that sex drive and arousal are controlled by the hypothalamus and the sympathetic nervous system. We also know that there is an area in the sensory cortex involved with genitalia. But we also know that this sex drive is not the same as sexual attraction or desire. The hypothalamus also plays a role in hormone regulation, which can is correlated with gender, biological sex, and (sexuality?). I want to know what physically and mentally causes sexual desire. Having differences in the hypothalamus could account for the weak correlation between gender identity and sexual orientation.
quote:
As for the discussion with therapies to help people overcome their attractions/addictions, etc. First off, why is it we blame the therapists when treatment fails? If a person truly wants to change, they will use whatever resources at their disposal to make that change.
If the resources the patient has are using the Nicolosi stereotypes for therapy when the individual obviously does not posses those stereotypes, then I do partially blame the therapist. Nicolosi himself admits that his method does not work for every patient, but the therapists in my area seemed to have missed that crucial part of his literature. The focus on males in the research is also problematic because female sexuality and male sexuality don't work the same way somehow. Therapists in my area give a false sense of hope when they say that they can help but aren't honest about their success rate or that their therapy is only effective in a small percentage of homosexuals possessing specific traits that have only a weak correlation. As far as cognitive based application goes, wouldn't a good therapist listen to the issues a patient has instead of putting them in a stereotypical box? The therapy could still be cognitive behavioral therapy if this was done, couldn't it? Also, what if there was a biological cause in some patients? Would medicine along with therapy help those individuals better?
quote:
Of course, I won't mention again the clinical trials done by other medical and pshychological practitioners with hundreds of homosexuals and whose books are on my shelves. I guess that all their hard work carried out over years is of no consequence because it does not fit in with anecdotal evidence from a small sample.
Anecdotal evidence? Small sample? I don't agree with this assessment and I don't think that the work put forth by non-NARTH researchers or even NARTH researchers is of no consequence. There are things to learn from every study, even if the study is not designed to determine causation.
quote:
Are people born that way or if it is something that is learned?
Obviously solo, this is an issue that is worth discussing in this thread, as it is the first question in the OP. Do you think the hypothalamus could be related to SSA? I think it could in some individuals. I haven't had neuroscience but I'm interested in learning more about it.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 2/4/2008 6:57:15 PM
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solo_soprano22
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Redcoat, I think one reason why I'm inquiring here is that we didn't really have time to cover SSA in neuroscience. He said he would have liked to, but we spent a lot of time on depression, mania, anxiety, schizophrenia, etc. that we just couldn't go over it all...Plus after learning all the channels and what's messed up in what disease and how, it probably would have been too much for us.
The hypothalamus and amygdala are two I know that are responsible for sexual attraction (whether it be normal or how it's supposed to be). I know they've done extensive tests on the amygdala and determined that, if the chemicals there are messed up (by them purposefully), the subjects have sexual problems. There may be more involved; basal ganglia maybe (?). I know a little while ago Nature had an article about that. The amygdala is involved in arousal and desire; the hypothalamus in involved in reproduction. Both the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems have their place with arousal in men I know (it sounds wrong because biology usually says that they work kind of against each other-- in men they work together for that); I'm not sure about in women.
I'm thinking about the hypothalamus, amygdala, and possibly the pituitary. I know in the amygdala there are epinephrine, norepi. and dopamine tracts. The hypothalamus has those three, plus those for human sex hormones. I think probably the main one of those two then might be the hypothalamus. I have a friend who has a problem with that and his pituitary, and he just found out he can't have kids cause the chemicals in there are so messed up that they cannot be fixed. (He's my age, and I'm about to be 22 yrs. old in a few days.) I'm not sure that I've seen studies on the pituitary and attraction, but with the way researchers get curious, I'm sure some exist. I know it controls human sex hormones too, which means that they can also be controlled poorly (too much or too little).
I was going to say more but I have to go for a few. I might try to look up some stuff on the hypothalamus and/or pituitary and attraction (from peer-reviewed journals).
< Message edited by solo_soprano21 -- 2/4/2008 7:10:32 PM >
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 2/4/2008 8:32:45 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano21
RC, I'm not sure if you're ignoring my points purposefully. If you are, that's cool. It doesn't seem like you believe in what I'm talking about that much (honestly), but some people do.
I do understand what you are talking about, been to college, studied bio, etc.
But maybe you don't understand what I am talking about in that the power and promises of God tells us that Believers do no have to sin; no matter where the temptation comes from. To reject that truth is to reject Christ.
There is no excuse for sin, and we all will stand before the Jedgment Seat of Christ.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my new book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com/
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 2/5/2008 5:31:32 AM
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zamdad
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quote:
but that doesn't mean that discussing the different causations is inherently wrong.
Solo, I think you are contributing to the conversation. I am not saying there is anything wrong with how you are looking at the issue. While you seem to be frustrated that some of us may not be wanting to look at it through the same lens as you, that frsutration is reciprocated. You have ignored points that have been brought up and have narrowed your focus down to the issues you want to know more about.
While I am not versed in biology or genetics or any of the sciences, I have graduated from a university and I have spent nearly 20 years working in a field where the goal is to change behavior. As I have stated, there are many chemical components to our bodies that affect how our minds work. But, ultimately, we have control over our bodies. We have control over the things we think which means we can control our behavior. I think scripture clearly addresses all these matters. Christ calls us to repent which is more than just turning the other way and not doing something again, it's a change in how we think, how we see the world and how we relate to others. While science and Christianity can mix, all too often we get so focused on the science we forget about Christ.
quote:
Redcoat
Good distinction. We know that sex drive and arousal are controlled by the hypothalamus and the sympathetic nervous system. We also know that there is an area in the sensory cortex involved with genitalia. But we also know that this sex drive is not the same as sexual attraction or desire. The hypothalamus also plays a role in hormone regulation, which can is correlated with gender, biological sex, and (sexuality?). I want to know what physically and mentally causes sexual desire. Having differences in the hypothalamus could account for the weak correlation between gender identity and sexual orientation.
Yes, things we know. BUt how is it that some people can control their arousal while others seem to be controlled by it?
quote:
As far as cognitive based application goes, wouldn't a good therapist listen to the issues a patient has instead of putting them in a stereotypical box? The therapy could still be cognitive behavioral therapy if this was done, couldn't it? Also, what if there was a biological cause in some patients? Would medicine along with therapy help those individuals better?
I've seen some medications used in conjunction with therapy. It seems like it varies from individual to individual. Ultimately, it comes down to owning our own thoughts, recognizing when deviant fantasies enter our minds and finding a means to eliminate the fantasy. Again, scripture is pretty clear as it speaks volumes on transforming our minds. Instead of playing with a deviant fantasy, we can surrender ourselves to Christ and think on HIm. Scripture also tells us that this will sound foolish to the world. Yet, having been a male slut once myself and having worked with the sex offender population, I am convinced more than ever that the timeless principles taught in scripture hold as true today as they did when they were written.
_____________________________
You can take the man out of Alaska, but you can't take Alaska out of the man.
Me
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 2/8/2008 9:48:38 AM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
Solo, I think you are contributing to the conversation. I am not saying there is anything wrong with how you are looking at the issue. While you seem to be frustrated that some of us may not be wanting to look at it through the same lens as you, that frsutration is reciprocated. You have ignored points that have been brought up and have narrowed your focus down to the issues you want to know more about.
While I am not versed in biology or genetics or any of the sciences, I have graduated from a university and I have spent nearly 20 years working in a field where the goal is to change behavior. As I have stated, there are many chemical components to our bodies that affect how our minds work. But, ultimately, we have control over our bodies. We have control over the things we think which means we can control our behavior. I think scripture clearly addresses all these matters. Christ calls us to repent which is more than just turning the other way and not doing something again, it's a change in how we think, how we see the world and how we relate to others. While science and Christianity can mix, all too often we get so focused on the science we forget about Christ.
I'm not sure how many times I've said that acting on the attraction/arousal is wrong, but the attraction itself is not wrong. That isn't trying to justify wrong behavior; that's saying that the "perverse" attraction may not be that person's choosing.
I want to look at biological reasons right now. I'm not ignoring your points; you have what you want to focus on right now and so do I. I know the rest of it is out there.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 2/8/2008 10:16:15 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano21
I'm not sure how many times I've said that acting on the attraction/arousal is wrong, but the attraction itself is not wrong.
If the "Attraction" is to the level of lusting after; then it is wrong(Sin), even without sexual activity; and arousal would certainly indicate lusting after.
If the attraction does not lead one to lust or act on the attrection, then I would consider it a temptation, which is not a sin.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my new book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com/
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 2/9/2008 1:51:55 PM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano21
I'm not sure how many times I've said that acting on the attraction/arousal is wrong, but the attraction itself is not wrong.
If the "Attraction" is to the level of lusting after; then it is wrong(Sin), even without sexual activity; and arousal would certainly indicate lusting after.
If the attraction does not lead one to lust or act on the attrection, then I would consider it a temptation, which is not a sin.
Thanks
RC
The reason why I said that was more for clarification. I repeatedly keep saying that homosexuality (as defined in this thread) is a sin for human being who's not mentally retarded or something (a person who's in their right mind). Zam keeps saying that I'm trying to justify sin, but I keep saying that homosexuality IS wrong, even if I think the SSA isn't wrong in itself. I just can't see where he's getting that I'm trying to use biology/science to justify homosexuality. I keep saying over and over and over again that that's what I'm not doing.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 2/9/2008 3:13:00 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano21
The reason why I said that was more for clarification. I repeatedly keep saying that homosexuality (as defined in this thread) is a sin for human being who's not mentally retarded or something (a person who's in their right mind).
Zam keeps saying that I'm trying to justify sin, but I keep saying that homosexuality IS wrong, even if I think the SSA isn't wrong in itself. I just can't see where he's getting that I'm trying to use biology/science to justify homosexuality. I keep saying over and over and over again that that's what I'm not doing.
Does seem that you put a lot of caveats to homosexuality being a sin. Such as retarded, biological mishaps, someone not in their right mind, just thinking about it etc.
Homosexuality is a sin; period, positivily, and always.
SSA is a temptation and any acting on that SSA temptation is a sin; arousal, lutsting after, or doing the deed.
Homosexuality is a sin; period, positivily, and always.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my new book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com/
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 2/9/2008 3:19:59 PM
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zamdad
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Solo, I am not saying YOU are using science to justify sin. What I was getting at is that science has been used over time to rationalize and justify sin. It seems you may be taking things to personally in a very general discussion.
I have questioned the use of the term SSA as defined in this thread because I don't see attraction and arousal as being equal. While many use the term interchangably, ie that they are sexually attracted to another, what they are truly saying is that that person arouses them and that they are thinking lustful thoughts toward/about that person.
I also believe this is something we have control over as our behavior is a result of our thoughts which is derived from attitudes, values and beliefs. For instance, as a married man, I have lustful thoughts about my wife. I have also entertained lustful thoughts about other women. But, I have recognized that those thoughts are sinful in that they dishonor God, my wife, and my family. If those thoughts enter my mind, I have to recognize them, capture them and give them to God to take from me. Entertaining those thoughts (deviant fantasies) allows the mind to venture into dangerous territory where a person can begin planning how to manage situations to bring that fantasy into the relm of reality.
So, while biolgoy and genetics and such are at play, when it comes to our sexuality, it comes down to our thought lives. We have control over what we do because we have the ability to recognize and control what and how we think.
_____________________________
You can take the man out of Alaska, but you can't take Alaska out of the man.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 2/9/2008 4:16:00 PM
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GeorgiaNerd
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quote:
I have questioned the use of the term SSA as defined in this thread because I don't see attraction and arousal as being equal.
I agree. Arousal is not always attraction, but sexual attraction most always involves some sort of arousal from what I've heard. They are related, but different. Then again, not all attractions are sexual. There are many kinds of attractions. I would consider lustful feeling sexual attractions, regardless of whether or not there is arousal involved or not. My sexual friends say that arousal usually happens, though.
Why is it that some people can control the "thought life," as you put it, and others cannot? Would you consider that to be the mark of sexual addiction? Or is sexual addiction more of a behavioral thing? Is homosexuality even a form of sexual addiction? Is control of these feelings always in the negative direction (stopping oneself from feeling something), or can it be in the positive direction as well (forcing oneself to think something)? There my brain goes asking a zillion questions again.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 2/10/2008 3:27:44 AM
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zamdad
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quote:
Why is it that some people can control the "thought life," as you put it, and others cannot?
I think we can all learn to control our thought lives. We all already do in most respects. If a person thinks about anything to the point it interferes with relationships and "life," then it could be classified as an addiction. Looking at it biblically, it's the same thing as idolitry. It's placing something else at such high importance that it becomes more important than God.
quote:
Or is sexual addiction more of a behavioral thing?
If our behavior is connected to our thoughts, why seperate them. We tend to get so focused on the behavior and want to change behavior. So how do we change behavior? We have to change attitudes, values and beliefs which changes how we think and, ultimately, effects our behavior.
quote:
Is homosexuality even a form of sexual addiction?
I know I'm going to have all kinds of verbal stones thrown at me for saying this, but I think it is. Seems to me that anyone claiming to be homosexual places such high importance on their arousal template that they want to be identified by their preferred sexual behavior. One of the things we had the folks in treatment working on was identifying their arousal template. The things/qualities they saw in/on people that made them begin to think sexual/lustful thoughts. It's pretty amazing the things that will trigger erotic thoughts. BUt, in keeping to simpler things, our culture bombards us day in and day out with messages designed to appeal to our sensual side. The culture encourages us to act on our impulses. Psychology has taught us that it's not our fault and that we can manage our sinful nature instead of letting it die.
quote:
Is control of these feelings always in the negative direction (stopping oneself from feeling something), or can it be in the positive direction as well (forcing oneself to think something)?
I think it can be both. But why not make it positive. I have a blog on CW. A couple of years ago I wrote about this. I got my hair cut one morning at a place staffed by all women. My wife and I had a rough morning before I left the house. One of the girls working was flirting with me. I enjoyed the conversation and as I drove to the office, began playing with the fantasy in my head about all the pleasurable things that could come if it. Then it hit me. Satan was stirring my mind to keep me from focusing on God and His plan for my life. At the same time Chuck Colson came on the radio and spoke to the issue of marital fidelity. I drove a little further down the road and my mind began to wander back to the deviant fantasy. Family Life came on the radio and had another message on marital fidelity. God was using the radio to bring my mind back to Him. If I would have followed the fantasy, I would have had a few minutes of pleasure with a woman I would want nothing to do with once the moment was over and I would be throwing away the friendship I hold dearest in my life, my wife. I would be sacraficing my kids for a brief thrill. I've seen far too many people do this, toss everyone and everything important in their lives to the side so they can have a few minutes pleasure. God wants better for us.
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You can take the man out of Alaska, but you can't take Alaska out of the man.
Me
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 2/10/2008 8:37:21 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
I think we can all learn to control our thought lives.
Absolutely true zamdad, and here is a great passage that supports the idea;
(2Co 10:5) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my new book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com/
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 2/17/2008 11:08:36 PM
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zamdad
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As I was driving to work last evening, I drove past the house of a woman I used to work with. I could see her in her living room and I caught my thought life going into action. As I caught the thought, I began to think about this thread and the discussion over sexual attraction vs. arousal as well as the ability to monitor/control our thinking.
I find this woman sexually attractive. What that means is that thoughts of her tend to gravitate toward lust. When I think about her, my mind becomes aroused. Yet, I know that this is wrong because it dishonors God, my wife, my kids, her and her family. Yet, if I do not capture those thoughts as they enter my mind, my mind will venture into fantasy, playing the “what if” game. Thinking up scenarios where we could be together to let the passion that I feel be unleashed.
While some may be horrified that my mind even goes to a place like that, we need to realize that the minds of many work in the same manner. If it had not been for working with sex offenders, I would have never learned about how to monitor my own thoughts and how to capture them and refocus on something else.
The message of the culture seems to be saying that we have no control over our sexual attraction/arousal templates; the things or people that we lust about. If a man is “sexually attracted to males, why is he not sexually aroused by all males? What is it about certain people that arouse us while others are attractive in non-sexual ways?
As I thought about this woman, I could easily have said that she made me lust after her. But, most likely, she has no idea that my thoughts toward her are sexual. She is not causing me to lust after her, I am causing it. It’s something in my hardwiring that makes my mind think sexual thoughts when I see her or think of her. But, I can control those thoughts. I can capture them when they enter my mind and keep from playing with the fantasy my mind wants to develop. If I were to think in terms of the culture, I would be encouraged to set up some type of situation/meeting in which MY erotic fantasy could come true. But, God instructs to think of others first. If we are thinking about getting our own erotic needs/desires met, we are not placing others before us.
So, how does this tie into homosexuality? If a person is wanting to be identified by their sexual preference/orientation, they are saying that they have a desire to have their needs/desires met by members of the same sex. It’s about self and using others to gratify urges. That’s why any sex outside God’s design is sin. It’s about gratifying self by using someone else as opposed to putting another person first.
_____________________________
You can take the man out of Alaska, but you can't take Alaska out of the man.
Me
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 2/18/2008 5:36:08 PM
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Cloak
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Researches have been done that proved that most homosexuals have been abused at some stage in their life.
Last year I 've been going to a church where the leader, the pastor, and many of its members were gays and lesbians, no wonder it's full of single folks.
Thank God I stopped going to that church even tho they were nice people!
I found out it that in some churches it is the politics to ordain homosexual pastors and even to marry homosexual couples.
I would recommend any serious Christian who wants to deepen their walk with God and become Christlike...to steer clear from those churches. They are usually very cool places and look quite tempting to stay with them. But thank God I was able to avoid them altogether.
We will end up either confused or start to compromise your Christian values.
_____________________________
And My God shall meet ALL Your Needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4: 19)
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 2/21/2008 11:25:03 PM
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Adonikam
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I believe homosexuality "might" be an infirmity of the flesh that some are born with. Certainly God can heal or deliver. More importantly, I believe the homosexual or someone with same sex attraction should believe, repent, and obey the gospel. The church will have to exercise patients with much patients with Christian brothers and sisters who struggle with this issue.
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 2/22/2008 1:10:48 AM
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GroupW
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Solo Soprano-
I hear your frustration. On the one hand, there are a group of people who tend to feel that biological explanations of factors that may contribute to sexual tendencies somehow minimize the responsibility people have for their choices and that if something has a biological factor involved that it negates responsibility and somehow makes a thing less sinful. (Personally, I have no issues looking at SSA as something with a biological root. At the end of the day, Zamdad is right in that we are dealt the cards we have and have to make choices in what to do with them. That doesn't mean that I wasn't dealt a EDITED TOS 5 hand.)
On the other hand, if you took the biological argument into a gay and lesbian forum, you would likely be soundly spanked. On that side, folks look at the issue of biological components and think we're calling gay folk "defective" in some fundamental way. These people resist because they fear that SSA may be classified as some form of mental illness or other biological imbalance/imperfection.
Both sides are fearful that something fundamental to their beliefs are being either minimized, forgotten, pushed aside or otherwise not properly valued.
So you pretty much stand in the middle catching arrows to both front and back. It's one reason why folks who wish to study the biological factors that may contribute to SSA have trouble getting funded. It's become something of a hot potato.
It's a good question to ask, but it's best asked by someone who enjoys looking like a pincushion!
Have fun!
< Message edited by Kath -- 2/22/2008 10:30:05 AM >
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RE: Homosexuality - One Stop Thread - 2/22/2008 9:56:28 AM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2317
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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