RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (Full Version)

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SD456 -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/10/2008 11:43:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YvonneW

Here is a brief bio of Erwin McManus at Book Disciple.com

The bio states:

quote:

He is one of the fathers of what is known as the emerging church movement. He has some radical and controversial attitudes toward Christianity as we have become accustomed to it.


Yvonne W.


Yes, and praise God that he does. The church has been in terrible need of an overhaul for a long, long time and God has graciously raised up many leaders that have the courage to walk in Christ with simplicity and a pure devotion to Jesus, which goes against so many things that we have become ACCUSTOMED to. Three cheers for God forcing us out of our comfort zones!



YvonneW -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/11/2008 12:36:02 PM)

SD456,

So are you saying that Erwin IS a part of the emerging church movement? That was the point of my last post.

Yvonne W.



SD456 -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/11/2008 12:38:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YvonneW

SD456,

So are you saying that Erwin IS a part of the emerging church movement? That was the point of my last post.

Yvonne W.


I would say that Erwin is exactly where God has called him to be and preaching what God wants him to preach and doing a very good job of it, too.



YvonneW -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/11/2008 1:54:09 PM)

SD456,

I missed seeing your previous post so before I answer your last post, let me first respond to these words:

quote:

Are we suppose to be speaking our criticisms about another to strangers? Isn't that called gossip? Doesn't the bible tell us to commune with our selves in our own beds and keep silent?(psalms)

I'm so curious as to why some in the body of Christ believe that it's not gossip and rumor-mongering when we critisize others and so bring doubt and suspicion against the person being spoken about it. Love believes all things, meaning it is to always believe the best in people and hope the best for them.


You might think this is strange but I actually agree with most of what you say here.

Now apply these exact words to Erwin McManus and what he did to Pastor Wolf and Youth Pastor Robbie Sortino.

Now if you are trying to imply that I am the one guilty of "gossip", let me remind you that it is not gossip to discuss someone's PUBLISHED words.

Now as to your last response:


quote:

ORIGINAL: SD456

quote:

ORIGINAL: YvonneW

SD456,

So are you saying that Erwin IS a part of the emerging church movement? That was the point of my last post.

Yvonne W.


I would say that Erwin is exactly where God has called him to be and preaching what God wants him to preach and doing a very good job of it, too.



A simple "yes" or "no" answer would have sufficed but this is exactly the type of non-commital answer I have grown accustomed to hearing from people who are entrenched in the emergent church movement.


Yvonne W.



SD456 -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/11/2008 4:16:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YvonneW

A simple "yes" or "no" answer would have sufficed but this is exactly the type of non-commital answer I have grown accustomed to hearing from people who are entrenched in the emergent church movement.

Yvonne W.


Yes, isn't it fun? Jesus always answered the pharisees questions with questions, rarely ever a direct answer and it must have driven them nuts!



YvonneW -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/11/2008 5:37:23 PM)

SD456

Thank you for confirming my suspicions.

When you are ready to stop playing games and start addressing the real issues I'll be willing to continue this discussion but until then, I have nothing further to say to you.

Yvonne W.



SD456 -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/12/2008 11:38:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YvonneW

SD456

Thank you for confirming my suspicions.

When you are ready to stop playing games and start addressing the real issues I'll be willing to continue this discussion but until then, I have nothing further to say to you.

Yvonne W.

That's ok, Yvonne. I answered your question, only not the way you wanted to hear.

There are some christians who demand a certain answer only to bolster them in their negative opinion of something or someone. That is actually the game, and it's the one that I won't play.

My answer said exactly what I meant - God has Erwin exactly where God wants him to be, teaching exactly what God has lead him to teach. That should cover everything.

Erwin doesn't need to be defended, by himself or anyone else. Just as Jesus didn't defend himself, but committed himself to His Father, allowing the Father to defend Him or not if He chooses, so Erwin and other humble leaders of the church do not waste their time defending themselves.



earthless -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/12/2008 4:39:27 PM)

I don't think SD ever could or would say a certain teaching (if labeled as "Christian") is not. Even when the documentation for it being not so is beyond anything imaginable.

I simply cannot relate to that way of thinking, if I did I would be a liberal Democrat or a secular college professor.



SD456 -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/12/2008 6:09:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

I don't think SD ever could or would say a certain teaching (if labeled as "Christian") is not. Even when the documentation for it being not so is beyond anything imaginable.

I simply cannot relate to that way of thinking, if I did I would be a liberal Democrat or a secular college professor.


Or just maybe someone whom God has given some insight to, to see into someone's heart. We can pray for God to give us eyes that He has, to allow us to see what He sees in the heart of a man. He will answer that prayer - perhaps after a couple years of requesting it, but it will definately be answered.

But to your point, I've never said that teachers don't have error in their doctrine. Just about everyone I've ever heard does. I don't call those people 'not christians', I simply say they have some error.

You've shown documentation about _______ (you know, those ones that we shouldn't be talking about on this thread) where I very much disagree with you on your interpretation of what that teacher is suppose to be saying, and instead I side with the person you are speaking about. My understanding of some verses is different than yours.



earthless -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/12/2008 6:11:58 PM)

Yes, but even when they preach clear error on CORE essential Christian doctrines - the call is silent from you. I just find that mind boggling, but Lord knows I have my strange quirks.

It's almost as if everyone and anyone that claims to be a Christian, regardless of their actual teachings, gets a pass.

And only God knows a person's heart... but maybe it's just me.



SD456 -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/14/2008 9:41:39 PM)

quote:

And only God knows a person's heart... but maybe it's just me.


We can pray for God to show us anything, even the heart of a man. I've prayed for years and years that God would allow me to see what He sees in people's hearts, that God would give me His eyes. God loves to answer these kinds of prayers.

And I've learned that He sees very differently than we do. It has taught me grace and taught me to not be so quick to judge others.

quote:

Yes, but even when they preach clear error on CORE essential Christian doctrines - the call is silent from you.


Other then Hinn's 17 yr old idea of the 9-headed God, or however you said it, I haven't seen CORE essentials on these threads, I've seen lots and lots of secondary doctrine stuff. I'd rather let Jesus be the one to pick out the wheat from the tares and divide the sheep from the goats. He can do a far better job than I ever could.



mushhead -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/14/2008 9:53:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SD456

quote:

And only God knows a person's heart... but maybe it's just me.


We can pray for God to show us anything, even the heart of a man. I've prayed for years and years that God would allow me to see what He sees in people's hearts, that God would give me His eyes. God loves to answer these kinds of prayers.

And I've learned that He sees very differently than we do. It has taught me grace and taught me to not be so quick to judge others.

SD456,
I believe that God loves to answer prayer, but you are being presumptuous by putting words in God's mouth. No where does God say that He loves to reveal the true nature of other people's hearts.

We are commanded to test claims like yours against the truths of Scripture. Earthless did this. His/her point is that because God commands us not to judge other people's hearts, it is apparent that this is one prayer He will likely not answer. Or else we can make judgments about the hearts of others in violation of God's command. But I guess we cannot be conclusive about that conclusion, so we need to see what else the Bible might say about it. In Jeremiah 17:9 God says this:
quote:

The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?

My question is as follows: "How can God show you the good hearts of people when God says that our hearts are so corrupt that they are beyond cure?



earthless -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/15/2008 10:56:06 AM)

You said it better than I could Mush...

And SD - you seem to not have looked at the threads in this forum, because they amply show how the core essentials of Christianity are trampled weekly by the preachers you defend.

But that is your free-will choice, good luck to you.



SD456 -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/16/2008 2:33:00 AM)

quote:

No where does God say that He loves to reveal the true nature of other people's hearts.

We are commanded to test claims like yours against the truths of Scripture. Earthless did this. His/her point is that because God commands us not to judge other people's hearts, it is apparent that this is one prayer He will likely not answer.


God does love to answer these kinds of prayer when we ask Him to give us His heart for a person and His eyes to see what He sees about them. He's answered that prayer many times for me and for many others that I know.

There's nothing unscriptural about asking for God's heart. David was a man after God's own heart - I strive for that also. God will give his heart and His desires and His vision to see things to those who ask.

If you can show me a scripture that says that God does not like to give His heart to people so that they feel what He feels for others, than I'll be more than happy to believe you.

quote:

My question is as follows: "How can God show you the good hearts of people when God says that our hearts are so corrupt that they are beyond cure?


I didn't say God shows me the good hearts of anyone, including myself. God can show us what He sees in them and what He feels toward them.



SD456 -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/16/2008 2:35:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

You said it better than I could Mush...

And SD - you seem to not have looked at the threads in this forum, because they amply show how the core essentials of Christianity are trampled weekly by the preachers you defend.

But that is your free-will choice, good luck to you.


I have read many of them and I disagree with your conclusions and the way that you choose to wrongly interpret some of their teachings and find old half-baked lies about them on the net. But I'll not waste my time arguing because it only helps to continue dragging their names through the muck and mire of the threads. And that is wrong to do.



earthless -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/16/2008 11:56:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SD456

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

You said it better than I could Mush...

And SD - you seem to not have looked at the threads in this forum, because they amply show how the core essentials of Christianity are trampled weekly by the preachers you defend.

But that is your free-will choice, good luck to you.


I have read many of them and I disagree with your conclusions and the way that you choose to wrongly interpret some of their teachings and find old half-baked lies about them on the net. But I'll not waste my time arguing because it only helps to continue dragging their names through the muck and mire of the threads. And that is wrong to do.


But if you're so certain that we are utterly misunderstanding these true teachers and Prophets of God's Word then who better than you to show us our faults? Who better to, with the Word, show us how their teachings are indeed Scriptural and how we should accept them as leaders of Christiandom.

You're disobeying God by not "wasting" your time in showing us:

a) how their teachings do line up with the full context of Scripture

&

b) how their failed/false prophecies that did not come to pass are indeed not false and we just missed some major news events.

Help us if you know you are right and we are wrong. Correct me, sis. Teach me, sis. Rebuke me and correct me with the Word of God if you know I am wrong.



SD456 -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/16/2008 1:14:25 PM)

quote:

show us how their teachings are indeed Scriptural and how we should accept them as leaders of Christiandom.


It is not my place to show you whom to accept as a leader. That's between you and Jesus. I know whom I trust and believe God has led me to and you need to be solid in the same.

But I do believe that in the past it is those trail-blazers of the faith who were always screamed against the loudest by the established religious church.

I trust that God will defend whom He chooses to defend, just as He decided whether to defend His own son and keep Him from the cross or not.

I deeply love many of those whom you would speak against. But that's between me and Jesus, just as your deep reviling of them is between you and Jesus.



earthless -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/17/2008 8:10:43 AM)

SD,

It's obvious you believe I am deeply wrong for testing the teachings of those you deeply love. I really wish, in the appropriate thread(s), that you would show me (and the rest of us) how their teachings are indeed biblical and how their failed/false prophecies really are true and legit.

See why so many Christians have a hard time with some that defend those in the Word of Faith movement? Because when their supporters are asked to discuss WoF leader's teachings, etc.. they refuse to do so.

Some would call that cult like behavior.



Soxfan -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/17/2008 9:39:41 AM)

SD,

To follow up with what earthless said, I am very curious to hear how you believe some of the false teachings highlighted throughout this forum line up with Scripture.

You spend a lot of time denouncing others that follow the Biblical command to test all teaching against Scripture and expose it when it is false. Yet you offer NO biblical support for these teachings.

Would you be willing to participate in a thread where the teachings of certain people are listed? You and others would be able to provide Scripture to support the teaching/theology.

It would be generic, not specific to WoF, Emergent, Latter Rain, etc



YvonneW -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/18/2008 5:01:55 PM)

Earthless started this thread by asking . . .

quote:

Any one familiar with this individual and or his books, ideals?


. . . so I was wondering if it would be alright to go back to that topic.

Here is a link to a 2006 interview between Infuze Magazine and Erwin McManus:

Infuze Magazine

Erwin discusses a few of his ideals in this interview.

I would like to hear what other people have to say before I add my own comments on this piece.


Yvonne W.



SD456 -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/18/2008 11:42:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

See why so many Christians have a hard time with some that defend those in the Word of Faith movement? Because when their supporters are asked to discuss WoF leader's teachings, etc.. they refuse to do so.

Some would call that cult like behavior.


I refuse to play your name-calling games and so I'm exhibiting cult behavior?? *ROFL* [:D] OK, I admit it. I should have left to Guanna (sp?) with Jim Jones years ago. I accidentally got left behind...

Actually proverbs calls it wisdom to keep silent and wisdom to not take up the offense of another.



SD456 -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/18/2008 11:52:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YvonneW

Earthless started this thread by asking . . .

quote:

Any one familiar with this individual and or his books, ideals?


. . . so I was wondering if it would be alright to go back to that topic.

Here is a link to a 2006 interview between Infuze Magazine and Erwin McManus:

Infuze Magazine

Erwin discusses a few of his ideals in this interview.

I would like to hear what other people have to say before I add my own comments on this piece.


Yvonne W.


Awesome interview. Thank for sharing it.

That's an awesome church and I hope to visit it someday. It's a breath of fresh air to hear a pastor who really 'gets' it. I agree with him on so many levels.

Jesus is already out in the world, we just need to help people 'see' it. I agree with him that we are all prophets of God in some way.



earthless -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/19/2008 8:05:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SD456

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

See why so many Christians have a hard time with some that defend those in the Word of Faith movement? Because when their supporters are asked to discuss WoF leader's teachings, etc.. they refuse to do so.

Some would call that cult like behavior.


I refuse to play your name-calling games and so I'm exhibiting cult behavior?? *ROFL* [:D] OK, I admit it. I should have left to Guanna (sp?) with Jim Jones years ago. I accidentally got left behind...

Actually proverbs calls it wisdom to keep silent and wisdom to not take up the offense of another.


One thing is for certain - we need to hold anyone accountable when they claim there are indeed people today that hold the Office of Prophet and of the Office of Apostle - if they claim they exist - they must name them.

It is only fair and good for the body of Christ and holds us all accountable.



yosemite371 -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/19/2008 12:16:09 PM)

rare times-i gotta agree with earthless on this u gotta line up with scripture and base ur faith there. if u dont base u faith on scripture u leave the door wide open for whoever. on another note what is a prophet and what is an apostle. didnt god leave the gift of prophesy to us and isnt an apostle one who preached jesus. who can fill these shoes?



YvonneW -> RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic (3/19/2008 3:14:37 PM)

May I direct everyone's attention back to the interview I mentioned above?

I'd like to know what people think about Erwin's non-profit organization "Awaken".

Yvonne W



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