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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/15/2008 12:42:07 AM
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Hayseed
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Alcoholics drink because they are alcoholics. Those events and stresses that make them drink are triggers. Those things happen to nonalcoholics, but alcoholics interpret feelings as a reason to drink. Alcohol becomes the answer to every negative feeling and the way to celebrate positive feelings.
No drinker starts out with the goal of becoming alcoholic.
Recovery is a medical, mental and spiritual process. It's about a lot more than just not drinking.
So, are you saying they're born "alcoholics"?
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/15/2008 2:36:26 AM
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zamdad
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I've been following this thread since its inception and have hesitated to post. There are so many theories. It seems that each of us like to take the ones that fit best into our world view and run with it. It seems so complicated, yet it really isn't as difficult as we make it out to be.
God is pretty clear in His word about what sin is and what the effects of sin are on self and others. In college, after learning I was not cut out to be a teacher, I changed my major to psychology. Shortly before this change, I surrendered my life to Christ. I had come out of the drug world where I was dependant on pot. I was also tending bar at the campus Pub at the time I submitted to Christ. I stopped drinking at that time. As I began to study psychology, I became disillusioned with the psychological field. It seemed like it was bent on studying and finding excuse for sin. I came away with the conclusion that, for the most part, psychology does little more than medicalize sin.
Since college I have now worked 16 years in the field of corrections, nine of those years as a probation officer. Part of my time in probation was supervising a high supervision caseload, the worst of the worst. Sex offender supervision was part of the caseload. One of the duties assigned to me was co-facilitation of sex offender treatment groups. The name can be decieving in that when we hear the term treatment with whatever group before it, we tend to think that all therapy is geared specifically toward that issue. With sex offender treatment, no issue was left unaddressed.
It also seems that, as humans, we want to categorize things and group people into the boxes we form to fit the categories we make. I think we do a great disservice to individuals when we tell them that because of their diagnosis they fit into this box and, maybe, this other box. We're all unique individuals that have unique interests and triggers. While these qualities may be shared with others, our experience with anything is our own experience and cannot be completely shared in the exact same means as another. In other words, two people can experiecne the same event and have completely different perspectives of it.
One of the things I've learned from my own experience as a user and from my professional experience in working with people is that each of us want to be loved. We want someone to listen, to really care for us and, no matter how much we may protest sometime, to really get to know us. We live in such a superficial world and none of us truly know anyone any more. We long for someone to know the deepest parts of our being and love us anyway. I think this is why addiction is such a spiritual thing more than most people will admit. When we aren't getting the love we want at home, at work, at school, play, where ever, we turn to things that will comfort us. Alcohol/drugs begin as a great way to find comfort. IN short time they take control from a person and begin to control everything about that person. It goes from being a source of comfort, to a God in a bottle, a rolled up piece of paper, a pipe, a syringe, etc. If we'recontrolled by Christ, we should love others as He loves us. If there was more of His love evident in His followers, others would not seek comfort in chemicals as frequently as they do.
quote:
Addicts stop maturing emotionally somewhere along the way.
Iwanted to comment on this. So many of those I've worked with over the years are perpetual teenagers. When you get down to the bottom of why behave the way they do, it comes back to having begun drinking/using as a teen/preteen. They are stuck, emotionally, at the chronological age they were when they began using.
Sorry for the long post. It's an issue that's near and dear to my heart and, while I'm not an expert, I have theories that get under the skin of those who claim to be experts.
_____________________________
You can't strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
A. Lincoln
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/15/2008 8:15:33 AM
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drmark
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Thanks for sharing, zamdad. I also have personal issues that are near and dear to my heart as the father of a teenaged drinker and drugger. Praise God, he will be 22 this April and clean and sober three full years! If it hadn't been for a loving, competent, Christ-centered rehabilitation center with counselors who understood the multi-faceted nature of addictions, I know without doubt that we would be visiting his gravesite this weekend.
quote:
I came away with the conclusion that, for the most part, psychology does little more than medicalize sin. Secular psychology, yes. Christian psychology has different priorities.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/15/2008 8:32:07 AM
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hammurabi
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quote:
Addicts stop maturing emotionally somewhere along the way.
Just one question - does this necessarily relate to substance, object, or activity, one is addicted to? Do cigarettes cause less maturation damage than alcohol? Or is this construed as a relationship between the severity (ability to disguise emotional problems) of the substance, and the reason for use? It seems that some substances which cause addiction don't actually prevent one from emotionally maturing, but entirely depend upon the way in which they're used, even if one is addicted to them. And what would Christian psychology (is that even a discipline?) have to say in relationship to this...
Just an observation, but it seems as though - and only from my "church" experience - that Christians tend to categorize addictions as "sinful"/important and "other," and focus their attention primarily upon the "sin"-addictions, without addressing the "other." I've seen, at the last church I attended (which was 3 years ago at 16), intensive focus upon sex addicts, while some congregates would wander outside to light up post-sermon, without much besides a "dirty, pseudo-Christian" look from the more pious, less Christ-related, members of the church.
_____________________________
"A man is morally free when, in full possession of his living humanity, he judges the world, and judges other men, with uncompromising sincerity." - George Santayana
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/15/2008 8:39:25 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Just one question - does this necessarily relate to substance, object, or activity, one is addicted to? The addict's arrest in emotional maturity is the cause of the substance abuse. However, different substances may potentiate psychoemotional disorder to a much greater extent than others. For example, cocaine is, generally speaking, far more damaging to the psyche than nicotine.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/15/2008 8:53:34 AM
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hammurabi
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Interesting. Is it generally accepted that a lack of emotional maturity is the cause of substance abuse, above and beyond the halt which it causes after it becomes abused? I've seen the definition of "abuse" as the misuse of a substance, for example the single use of drug without pharmaceutical properties, but you seem to go beyond that into the complex of emotion and chemical addiction characterizing abuse. Does this mean that no chemical is necessarily subject to abuse in limited quantities, extending this even so far as cocaine or opiate derivatives? Or does emotional maturity include a certain amount of psychological naivety, then? That the abuse is conditioned by a lack of knowledge of the potential for abuse, and therefore the potential for abuse in a subject is partially caused by a lack of knowledge? If I'm hearing you right, you're calling a lack of knowledge and initial ability to cope the "cause of the substance abuse," which definitely interesting.
_____________________________
"A man is morally free when, in full possession of his living humanity, he judges the world, and judges other men, with uncompromising sincerity." - George Santayana
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/15/2008 8:58:41 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: designed
quote:
Jimbo-
Actually, the Bible addresses drunkeness, which may not even be characteristic of many alcoholics. I've known alcoholics that seemed to function without any noticeable effects but had a constant need to drink.
The Bible also addresses 'drunkards' which I think can apply to those who drink heavily and regulary(alcoholics) even if they don't "seem" drunk.
When I said drunkeness I was including references to drunkards. By and large, most drunkeness that I've seen happens with non-alcoholics (and I've seen plenty when I was in the miltary). Drunkards, as a rule, choose to get that way. While an alcoholic may have once had the ability to choose, they no longer do once they take the first drink.
While alcoholism and drunkeness/drunkards may overlap, they are entirely different things. I'm not excusing either but addiction and intentional intoxication are separate issues.
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/15/2008 9:14:18 AM
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krazyxsinner
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quote:
Drunkards, as a rule, choose to get that way. While an alcoholic may have once had the ability to choose, they no longer do once they take the first drink.
How do we really know there is a difference? Could it not be as simple as the atheistic mindset of psychiatry denying the basic tenets of scripture that sin is sin and Christ can remove it? Maybe what is a "disease" is really a condition of the heart.
_____________________________
If Christians cared more about being His hands and feet and less about being His mouth, imagine what could be done.
www.thefirstchurchofthelivingdead.com
www.christiangoth.com
www.christianindustrial.net
www.thunderstruck.org
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/15/2008 10:55:08 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Is it generally accepted that a lack of emotional maturity is the cause of substance abuse, above and beyond the halt which it causes after it becomes abused? I believe that is a valid Christian perspective on all sinful behavior, although the neuropsychiatric effects of chronically using psychoactive agents greatly complicates the emotional picture in these cases. Obviously, other sinful actions may have little, if any, physical effects but still result from inadequate spiritual maturity. A new thread for discussion of the interaction between sin, emotional maturity, and spiritual development would prevent this topic from wandering.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/15/2008 11:47:33 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hayseed
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
Alcoholics drink because they are alcoholics. Those events and stresses that make them drink are triggers. Those things happen to nonalcoholics, but alcoholics interpret feelings as a reason to drink. Alcohol becomes the answer to every negative feeling and the way to celebrate positive feelings.
No drinker starts out with the goal of becoming alcoholic.
Recovery is a medical, mental and spiritual process. It's about a lot more than just not drinking.
So, are you saying they're born "alcoholics"?
Predisposition does not necessarily = destiny. Obviously, someone that never drinks cannot become an alcoholic. Sons of alcoholics are about five times more likely to become alcoholics, regardless of whther they grew up with dad. Lots of diseases "tend" to run in families. Some are greater than others. Just as the children of two people with heart disease are more likely to have heart disease, but not always.
_____________________________
Wer weiß, was Übel im Herzen der Männer lauert? Nur der Schatten weiß. Giants 17 Patriots 14.
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/15/2008 4:30:58 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: krazyxsinner
quote:
Drunkards, as a rule, choose to get that way. While an alcoholic may have once had the ability to choose, they no longer do once they take the first drink.
How do we really know there is a difference? Could it not be as simple as the atheistic mindset of psychiatry denying the basic tenets of scripture that sin is sin and Christ can remove it? Maybe what is a "disease" is really a condition of the heart.
I'm sure you are very sincere but I also sincerely think you've never been addicted to anything. Hopefully, you'll never have to endure any addiction, but Christians become addicted to substances without intending to and have great difficulty in breaking free. (Even simple addiction to caffeine.)
One such addiction is when someone is in the end stages of cancer and spend their final weeks or months addicted to morphine or other narcotic. Most of us overlook that, but is an uncontrollable side effect to getting pain relief. Large numbers of solders have come home over the years with addiction to drugs given in the field hospitals. Angain, we tend to overlook that.
But if someone is susceptible to an addiction to alcohol, we automatically assume its a moral flaw rather than a chemical addiction.
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/15/2008 4:41:20 PM
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drmark
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quote:
quote:
Maybe what is a "disease" is really a condition of the heart. But if someone is susceptible to an addiction to alcohol, we automatically assume its a moral flaw rather than a chemical addiction. Is there a spiritual problem when someone develops a chemical tolerance to a prescribed pain medication? How about when someone develops a chemical tolerance to a legal (at some ages) and socially acceptable (in some Christian circles) beverage?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/15/2008 6:12:56 PM
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designed
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Good points drmark and jimbo. The line defenitely becomes blurred when you see the medicinal factor is also part of the equation of addiction. I think some people can be dependent on certain chemicals and not be what most would consider "addicts"(some may become so). Of course, as has been allready mentioned, it's really as unique a situation as any certain individual and circumstance is unique. There is no one size fits all description. Alcohol presents its own set of problems because it is so widely accepted and available. It is one of the only chemicals that can highly intoxicate while having the universal O.K to use for any given number of reasons, most of which have no medicinal value. I feel that any one of average mental health and at an age of reason, always has the choice to pick up that first drink. Regardless of what may or may not follow that intial decision, there is an initial choice to be made. The bondage I experienced surely made me feel as though I had no choice but to drink 10 drinks instead of the 1 or 2 I planned on drinking, but there was always a choice to be made somewhere in the situation and I had to accept that reality to move into deliverance from that which enslaved me. No matter how much denial someone presents on the outside, when it comes down to it, when you continue to do things that make your life miserable over and over, you may not understand how to stop, or even what the nature of the problem is, but you know what you are doing is wrong. Nobody sets out ot be an addict or alcoholic but there always comes a point where God's law that is placed in the heart of every human, exposes the nature of our deeds. I know some people feel I am being a bit cold when I say we need to stop coddling the alcoholics out there by giving them reasons/excuses for their behaviour that help relieve personal accountability. Whether you have the most mighty alcoholic genes known to man or just can't figure out why everytime you pick up a drink you can't stop. They need our help and love but lets keep it real, so they are given the possibility of healing and forgiveness instead of just being treated and managed.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:35
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The LORD of hosts is His name:
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/15/2008 6:33:37 PM
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krazyxsinner
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: krazyxsinner
quote:
Drunkards, as a rule, choose to get that way. While an alcoholic may have once had the ability to choose, they no longer do once they take the first drink.
How do we really know there is a difference? Could it not be as simple as the atheistic mindset of psychiatry denying the basic tenets of scripture that sin is sin and Christ can remove it? Maybe what is a "disease" is really a condition of the heart.
I'm sure you are very sincere but I also sincerely think you've never been addicted to anything. Hopefully, you'll never have to endure any addiction, but Christians become addicted to substances without intending to and have great difficulty in breaking free. (Even simple addiction to caffeine.)
One such addiction is when someone is in the end stages of cancer and spend their final weeks or months addicted to morphine or other narcotic. Most of us overlook that, but is an uncontrollable side effect to getting pain relief. Large numbers of solders have come home over the years with addiction to drugs given in the field hospitals. Angain, we tend to overlook that.
But if someone is susceptible to an addiction to alcohol, we automatically assume its a moral flaw rather than a chemical addiction.
I wasn't but hubby used to be an alcoholic and a drug addict prior to salvation. He was very active in recovery groups and retreats and was a sponsor. Upon salvation he was instantly healed and has taught extensively and led street ministries to drunks and druggies talking about about how Christ can deliver from drugs and alcohol. He has the experience I just glean from what he teaches.
< Message edited by krazyxsinner -- 2/15/2008 7:45:58 PM >
_____________________________
If Christians cared more about being His hands and feet and less about being His mouth, imagine what could be done.
www.thefirstchurchofthelivingdead.com
www.christiangoth.com
www.christianindustrial.net
www.thunderstruck.org
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/15/2008 7:32:23 PM
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drmark
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That's a wonderful testimony, krazyxsinner! It's also not the only way God chooses to heal his children. Sometimes, the ongoing process of daily consecration and submission is God's plan for sustained deliverance. I think we need to be careful not to restrict His loving grace to only one mechanism.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/15/2008 7:49:49 PM
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CherishedbyGod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Is there a spiritual problem when someone develops a chemical tolerance to a prescribed pain medication?
No. If someone has a chronic pain condition, and takes pain medication on a routine basis, they will develop a chemical tolerance and the need for increased medication to reach the same level of pain relief as they had when they initially started pain medication.
_____________________________
~Whom have I in heaven but thee? And there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ~
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/16/2008 4:51:43 AM
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drmark
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quote:
No. If someone has a chronic pain condition, and takes pain medication on a routine basis, they will develop a chemical tolerance and the need for increased medication to reach the same level of pain relief as they had when they initially started pain medication. Why is someone requesting chronic pain medication, especially if they understand the potential for addiction? Could God be allowing their experience for spiritual growth and the use of pain killers is interfering with His divine purposes? Is there a possible problem with faith going on? Don't misunderstand, but this whole issue is a lot more complex than we think.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/16/2008 7:01:07 AM
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deliveredarling
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I would like to address all of you in this one point: Who among you is a true recovered alcoholic?
If you are not, you do not understand the full concept of addiction. Even a person who has lived with an alcoholic or addict can not understand until they receive treatment as well.
You can stand on the sidelines and spout a bunch of useless book knowledge, that doesn't mean squat unless YOU personally have fought the battle and won.
I know this disease first hand. I am recovered and restored by the Grace of God. i did not set out to become an alcoholic. I didn't start drinking to get hooked so that I could devastate my family and friends. I didn't personally and intentionally cause harm to anyone because it was fun to do so. I drank because my coping skills lacked. I grew up with an addict brother. My parents were not drinkers or drug users. He and I just happened to get those lucky genes. My brother died because of his addiction. Do you really believe people choose this lifestyle?
There is a profound difference between the drug abuser and the addict/alcoholic. The abuser chooses to do this recreationally and can stop at any time. The addicted one can not. The power of choice is lost the minute the substance enters the body. It is prefaced with the thought process. When the substance enters the body, all thoughts immediately turn to need. The drug reliant do not need the drugs for their body to function. The true alcoholic needs alcohol to live. Their organs can not function with out it. They have to be medically detoxed in order to avoid death. This is not fun and games. It is not easy and very painful. It is a horrible condition to survive and can not be done without the power of God.
To believe that people choose to live like this, is plainly a lack of education and personal experience.
When alluding to the allergy affect, in the BB of AA describes this it is defining what the disease is a akin to- an allergy. Some people are allergic to strawberries, so they don't eat them because they will have a bad reaction to it, right? It is the same with alcohol and drugs. We can't use them, even a little because we have detrimental reactions to them. Our chemical make-up is different than the "normal" people". Not everybody is allergic to strawberries, just like not everybody is allergic to drugs/alcohol.
I am always amazed at how non alcoholics/addicts attempt to describe and define the addiction. People, if you haven't experienced it and talk to someone about it(giving advice, ect) be forewarned that what you tell them can kill them. Do you really want to live with that because you have an unsubstantiated opinion on the subject?
Had people have told me some of the stuff I have seen on this thread, and I had listened, I would have been dead!!!!!!
Addiction is deadly, and not a lighthearted subject. It is a sin, yet no greater or lesser than any other. Usage and addiction is the consequence of living sinfully. God can remove it and He does when we turn it over to Him. He will remove it and still let us suffer the consequences of our actions. It is not punishment per say, but rather the education we receive from a loving parent.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/16/2008 10:36:17 AM
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designed
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quote:
birdseye-
There is a profound difference between the drug abuser and the addict/alcoholic. The abuser chooses to do this recreationally and can stop at any time. The addicted one can not….
…The true alcoholic needs alcohol to live.
I do believe what you described as the ‘true alcoholic’ is yet another (more severe) stage of alcoholism. Your description of what happens to a person when they are physically dependant upon alcohol is clearly illustrated and accurate IMO. But I think it is important to point out that there are many alcoholics and addicts who are addicted, reliant, and abuse their drug of choice but not to the extent of physical dependency. There is the mental component as well. To sum it up: You can be an alcoholic/addict and not be physically dependant. Also, no one becomes physically dependant overnight. It all starts with abuse/use.
quote:
Had people have told me some of the stuff I have seen on this thread, and I had listened, I would have been dead!!!!!!
My hope was to start this thread for some light to be shed on the subject and possibly clear up some misunderstandings. So, seeing that you feel as though there have been grave misunderstandings/statements made, do you care to elaborate? I'm just not sure what you are referring to here.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:35
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The LORD of hosts is His name:
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/16/2008 12:33:40 PM
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CherishedbyGod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Why is someone requesting chronic pain medication, especially if they understand the potential for addiction? Could God be allowing their experience for spiritual growth and the use of pain killers is interfering with His divine purposes? Is there a possible problem with faith going on? Don't misunderstand, but this whole issue is a lot more complex than we think.
Well, I totally agree it is very complex but have you ever had chronic, severe pain?
Amy Carmichael, one of the greatest saints that has ever lived was on morphine the last number of years of her live for severe, chronic pain...This lady was a spiritual giant so I don't think we can put everyone in a box and say it is an issue with faith.
_____________________________
~Whom have I in heaven but thee? And there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ~
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/16/2008 12:40:10 PM
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CherishedbyGod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: birdseye
I am always amazed at how non alcoholics/addicts attempt to describe and define the addiction. People, if you haven't experienced it and talk to someone about it(giving advice, ect) be forewarned that what you tell them can kill them. Do you really want to live with that because you have an unsubstantiated opinion on the subject?
Had people have told me some of the stuff I have seen on this thread, and I had listened, I would have been dead!!!!!!
Addiction is deadly, and not a lighthearted subject. It is a sin, yet no greater or lesser than any other. Usage and addiction is the consequence of living sinfully. God can remove it and He does when we turn it over to Him. He will remove it and still let us suffer the consequences of our actions. It is not punishment per say, but rather the education we receive from a loving parent.
I totally agree....
_____________________________
~Whom have I in heaven but thee? And there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ~
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/16/2008 1:03:38 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Amy Carmichael, one of the greatest saints that has ever lived was on morphine the last number of years of her live for severe, chronic pain...This lady was a spiritual giant so I don't think we can put everyone in a box and say it is an issue with faith. I didn't "put everyone in a box", did I, CbG. I carefully posted using the words "could" and "possible". I'm sorry I don't know Ms Carmichael, but I think it's presumptuous to say that it was her desire to "live on morphine for years", unless you have her personal testimony to support this.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/16/2008 1:12:03 PM
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CherishedbyGod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I'm sorry I don't know Ms Carmichael, but I think it's presumptuous to say that it was her desire to "live on morphine for years", unless you have her personal testimony to support this.
I did not say it was her desire to live on morphine for years. I do have her testimony. She has written numerous books. she was a missionary to India for 50 years - a total self-sacrificing life. She fell and the last 20 years of her life was in bed enduring chronic, severe pain all the time continuing to minister. You are actually slandering one of the most Godly women of all time by saying it was her desire.
Be careful!
_____________________________
~Whom have I in heaven but thee? And there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ~
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RE: What is addiction/alcoholism? - 2/16/2008 1:26:24 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3108
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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I apologize, CbG, but I have no intention of slandering anyone, especially someone I do not know. The point I was trying to make (obviously rather poorly) is that perhaps this godly lady did not wish to have as much mind-altering medication as her physicians encouraged her to take. If I'm "slandering" anyone, it would be my fellow professionals who often push aggressive analgesia without much consideration for patients' spiritual needs. I realize the doctors' intentions may be "noble", but this kind of decision rarely involves family, pastor, or ethicist.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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