RE: is suicide forgiven? (Full Version)

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deliveredarling -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/21/2008 8:36:55 PM)

This is in response to the thread created by Pastor Debie.


Like LL, i have seen the other thread and never went there, even to peak. This is a subject very close to me. No longer is it touchy, but for many years it was. A number of loved ones in my life have committed suicide. my brother, his best friend who was like a brother, another friend of theirs and my first husband. All were drug addicts. I don't know that I agree with Walkers sentiment of them being nuts. People who commit suicide aren't always crazy. It takes a tremendous amount of fore thought to carry out the plan. The plan isn't always spur of the moment nor a decision made on a whim. My brother, his bf, my husband, all left very detailed letters. No crazy thinking in that. If anything, it was the best attempt they could make at an explanation. The pain they are suffering is beyond anything we can imagine, even for believers. Maybe they lack the faith some of us has. Maybe it is so dark I their minds, God "can't" shine any light. I don't know the ins and outs of it all, I do know I came close myself. I understand the lack of light and of hope. I also know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the light is always there.
I understand that it is a choice. They either choose to seek a light they have heard about or that don't. They pray for mercy and this is their solution. God knows their hearts, He knows their pain, He's heard their cries. i do believe He knew their time of departure on this earth and had/has a plan for the survivors. His ways are not always easy for us to understand. it takes great faith to trust that He knows what He is doing. I'm not saying that God ordained suicides. I'm saying that He knows what He's doing in people's lives even when we seek our will over His.
Sorry, I got a little long winded.
Yes. I believe that suicides that are believers, go to Heaven.



aquilusone -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/21/2008 9:36:22 PM)

I know that I have jumped into this conversation late...I have read alot of the responses. The only way I can see to respond is...with what I believe and that is if the person is saved that they will go to heaven if they commit suicide.

Someone wrote that this a touchy subject and that we needed to be aware that some reading might be contemplating suicide themselves...reading this thread has brought back all sorts of memories for me. I was hospitalized in Feb of 05 for contemplating suicide. I had a plan, and knew how I would do it. The only thing that stopped me was my children, I couldn't figure out where to go so my kids wouldn't find me. I have been and still continue to battle depressionand post tramatic stress disorder (ptsd).

If you are reading this I do know how you feel. I have been there. Suicide isn't the way. Get help! There are people out there and in here that love you and want you to be safe.

You may see that alot of people believe if you commit suicide and are saved you will go to heaven. I believe that also, but I don't believe that is the way the Lord wants you to go.

That is what I were thinking I hope that it helps someone.



pstrdebi -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/21/2008 10:17:49 PM)

This is what I posted in another forum (didn't know this one existed):

This morning I had an alarming call from my 28 year old son in So Cal. He was asking for prayer for his boss who tried to commit suicide (he is just 30 something... and as of last word, he is still alive... but we do not know the condition.)

This brought up much conversation between my husband and I about suicide and how God views it. I mentioned purgatory simply because when I asked my son if his boss believed, he told me all he knows is that he was raised Catholic. Being raised Catholic myself, I remember being taught that if you committed suicide you would go to purgatory.

So I'm curious about how others see this. I have not researched this topic very much, and I guess I need to. But I can not recall seeing anything regarding suicide in the Bible.

How do you feel about it? Is it sin? Will the person enter Heaven if they have received Christ? And why do you feel that way?

PS... please keep this young man in your prayers.

I guess I should have added... "what if they haven't received Christ (this young man being a Catholic) yet cry out to God for forgiveness before they act? (I don't know that this took place... just hoping.)

DD...

Thank you for your response and also from the others. Yes, I believe that God's grace covers a multitude of sin. Praise God. It's wondering about those who don't know Christ... or those we're not sure about.

Yes... I believe only God knows. As I told my husband earlier... God is not in a box. He decides the outcome of their act.

DD... I too have heard of those with detailed letters to loved ones. I believe that someone can be at their wits end and still be able to compose a letter. Someone doesn't need to be insane to commit suicide. Depression is a very dark disease... and so is torment. I have dealt with both of these and I can tell you from experience that there were days... "but for the grace of God... there go I."

I believe that the torment people can deal with in their souls is very extreme... yet you can still function normally.... to a point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic
The real answer is that nobody knows where suicides' souls go. God alone will decide whether a suicide victim (for they are victims) will enter Heaven or not.

Most suicides are carried out when people's mental state is temporarily unbalanced because of a traumatic experience. If we being human have pity on them, then do you not think that an infinitely more loving God will also have mercy on them?

Some suicides are carried out when people's mind is crystal clear. I speak of people who are terminally ill who plan their death well in advance. Assisted suicides are illegal in the UK and people have been known to travel abroad to end their lives and save their loved ones who helped them from prosecution.

How would God judge such an act; when someone ends their life because they do not want to face a prolonged painful and un-dignified slow journey to death; or when they want to avoid the pain and suffering that this would cause their loved ones? I suspect He will understand the reason behind peoples decisions and judge them accordingly.


mvic, we live in the one state that I know of that allows assisted suicide. And I think it's sick. I think that they are coming close to playing God... and I know that many would disagree with me on that. God can heal sickness and disease... and He can also heal the mind. I understand their reasoning behind it... but I don't believe that makes it right.

Thanks eveyone for your input!
Blessings...
Pastor Debi



rosie2773 -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 12:51:06 AM)

If you ask for forgiveness before committing a sin, are you really sorry if you go ahead and do it anyway?

Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin,"
Hebrews 10:27 "But a certain fearful looking for judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

How can anyone say that its ok? The Bible says to watch and be ready. To be without spot or blemish. Telling someone that if you commit sin you'll still go to Heaven is deceiving them and yourself. Shall we continue in sin? God forbid. Roman 6:1-2

Taking a life, either your own or someone else's, is not OK!



Lufia -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 9:27:25 AM)

I am wondering: what is worse taking the life of another human being or kill ourselves? If God forgive us for taking the life of someone else, (which i think is worse than suicide) i think that 'logically' God would forgive suicide. But something i am very sure is that God doesn't want any of the two to happen. I'm sure that it is one the worst sins we can do to Him. Because God has a plan for each one of us and when we kill, we kill the plan also.



pstrdebi -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 10:08:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rosie2773

If you ask for forgiveness before committing a sin, are you really sorry if you go ahead and do it anyway?

Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin,"
Hebrews 10:27 "But a certain fearful looking for judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

How can anyone say that its ok? The Bible says to watch and be ready. To be without spot or blemish. Telling someone that if you commit sin you'll still go to Heaven is deceiving them and yourself. Shall we continue in sin? God forbid. Roman 6:1-2

Taking a life, either your own or someone else's, is not OK!


Where though, does it say in the Word that suicide is a sin?



CCCdnt -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 10:14:10 AM)

(Not sure if I ever responded to this)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: CCCdnt

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

Just because you have read scripture and come to a conclusion in NO way means you've arrived at it's intended meaning.

This could be said of anyone.

Ah, but you implied that only you got it or that everyone else is inernt.


Please show me where and how exactly I implied this.

quote:

If you are convinced that salvation is obtained by grace but only kept by works,...


I do not believe that salvation is kept by works.



pstrdebi -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 10:14:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lufia

I am wondering: what is worse taking the life of another human being or kill ourselves? If God forgive us for taking the life of someone else, (which i think is worse than suicide) i think that 'logically' God would forgive suicide. But something i am very sure is that God doesn't want any of the two to happen. I'm sure that it is one the worst sins we can do to Him. Because God has a plan for each one of us and when we kill, we kill the plan also.


I agree with those who say, "we really don't know." When we say we have the "answer"... we are presuming to be God's mind.

Side note: as of 10:30 pm PST I heard from my son that they were waiting for this young mans father to get there and then they were going to disconnect him from life support. So sad... but I continued to pray for a miracle even after that news. I haven't heard anything this morning.

Life support. This brings another twist to the issue. I would not disconnect my child. I am not God. Just my opinion.



CCCdnt -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 10:17:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pstrdebi
Where though, does it say in the Word that suicide is a sin?


The Bible says that murder is a sin, and suicide is self-murder. That being said, one who willing gives up his life to save the life of another is not a sin...Jesus said that there is no greater love than this.



pstrdebi -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 10:47:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CCCdnt

quote:

ORIGINAL: pstrdebi
Where though, does it say in the Word that suicide is a sin?


The Bible says that murder is a sin, and suicide is self-murder. That being said, one who willing gives up his life to save the life of another is not a sin...Jesus said that there is no greater love than this.


Yes... He says that "murder" is a sin. I don't believe that the person contemplating suicide is thinking "I'm going to murder myself. Murder carries with it 'hatred'... killing is not a sin. God sent out many armies to kill. I believe when someone is contemplating suicide, there intent is to "kill" themselves to escape the internal pain they are enduring.



Qtman -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 10:55:26 AM)

The killing (murder) talked about in the Bible as in the Ten Commandments is the taking of someone's life with out just cause. Most people who commit suicide believe they have just cause for doing so. I can't say all of them do but I am pretty sure some really do. In the end, just cause, is also left up to God's discretion.



pstrdebi -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 10:55:44 AM)

You know... just for the sake of discussion....

What about those who smoke? Are they not slowly committing suicide? They know the consequences of smoking and what will eventually happen... so are they not sinning?



CCCdnt -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 12:51:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pstrdebi

quote:

ORIGINAL: CCCdnt

quote:

ORIGINAL: pstrdebi
Where though, does it say in the Word that suicide is a sin?


The Bible says that murder is a sin, and suicide is self-murder. That being said, one who willing gives up his life to save the life of another is not a sin...Jesus said that there is no greater love than this.


Yes... He says that "murder" is a sin. I don't believe that the person contemplating suicide is thinking "I'm going to murder myself.


I think it could be argued that murders are sometimes committed without the person planning to do it. Also, does a person have to always name a specific sin to himself before he commits it for him to be guilty of committing that specific sin?

quote:

Murder carries with it 'hatred'...


What if a person killed someone because the person thought it would be more loving to kill the person than to let the person live? For example, what if a mother killed her 1 month old baby because she decided that she could not provide for the baby and thought it would be more loving for the baby to go to be with the Lord? Would this still not be murder?

quote:

...killing is not a sin. God sent out many armies to kill.

I agree that not all killing is a sin.

quote:

I believe when someone is contemplating suicide, there intent is to "kill" themselves to escape the internal pain they are enduring.

And what if a person killed someone else who was suffering from some kind of painful disease where the person's intent was to end the pain the other person was enduring? Would you say that this would be okay?



CCCdnt -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 12:55:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pstrdebi

You know... just for the sake of discussion....

What about those who smoke? Are they not slowly committing suicide? They know the consequences of smoking and what will eventually happen... so are they not sinning?


I would say that in this situation it would depend on the reason the person was smoking. An example would be if the person was smoking because the person was wanting to end his life and was hoping that smoking would do it.

I would guess that most who smoke are not trying to end their lives by smoking no more than those that eat diets high in cholesterol and fat are trying to end their lives. What they are doing may be unhealthy and could very well lead to their deaths, but that does not mean that those people's intent is to kill themselves by what they are doing.



Bridgitt -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 1:16:18 PM)

Nobody knows somebody as God does. He, only, knows if a person will go to heaven after they die, no matter what type of death it is. It's all about what type of relationship that person had with Christ before they died.



rosie2773 -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 1:59:59 PM)

There are many scriptures in the Bible that teach us that killing is a sin. In the case of suicide, its not for self-defense, its not in the armed services, its not because you've broken the law and been sentenced.

I agree that only God knows. I'm not saying God won't forgive it, He will. But saying that He'll forgive it doesn't mean He condones it. That also doesn't mean that He automatically forgives it either. Willfully committing a sin is dangerous ground anyway. If a person does something, what if there is no time after to ask forgiveness? Do you think God overlooks that?

As far as life support, Is God keeping that person in this world, or is man? I don't think that removing life support, when that is their only means of survival is killing them, I think its letting them go.



JimboFletch -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 4:25:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pstrdebi

You know... just for the sake of discussion....

What about those who smoke? Are they not slowly committing suicide? They know the consequences of smoking and what will eventually happen... so are they not sinning?

Don't forget those that don't exercise and who eat lots of animal fat and sweets.



JimboFletch -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 4:27:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rosie2773
As far as life support, Is God keeping that person in this world, or is man? I don't think that removing life support, when that is their only means of survival is killing them, I think its letting them go.

Do you really believe that man can override the will of God, with or without life support, if He wants to end a person's life?

Or, for that matter, that God cannot keep you alive in spite of your best efforts to end your life if He wills it otherwise?



pstrdebi -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 5:01:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: rosie2773
As far as life support, Is God keeping that person in this world, or is man? I don't think that removing life support, when that is their only means of survival is killing them, I think its letting them go.

Do you really believe that man can override the will of God, with or without life support, if He wants to end a person's life?

Or, for that matter, that God cannot keep you alive in spite of your best efforts to end your life if He wills it otherwise?


There was a woman... (I think in Florida)... not too long ago. She was pregnant and was in a terrible car accident. They delivered the baby... had her on life support and then she was in a coma for 3 years! Her family wouldn't give up. One day... she just woke up!

That's God!!!



naomigo -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 5:16:59 PM)

i agree. i always herd that suicide is not forgivable



quote:

ORIGINAL: rosie2773

If you ask for forgiveness before committing a sin, are you really sorry if you go ahead and do it anyway?

Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin,"
Hebrews 10:27 "But a certain fearful looking for judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

How can anyone say that its ok? The Bible says to watch and be ready. To be without spot or blemish. Telling someone that if you commit sin you'll still go to Heaven is deceiving them and yourself. Shall we continue in sin? God forbid. Roman 6:1-2

Taking a life, either your own or someone else's, is not OK!



deliveredarling -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 6:17:44 PM)

The Bible says that there is only one unforgivable sin. That is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. That meant for all of you who believe that suicide is an unforgivable sin are disregarding biblical teaching. It's there in black, white and red for all to read.

Murder is a forgivable sin, David, Paul, ect were all murderers. Do you think that David, a man after God's own heart is now in hell because he murdered?

God's Word has already answered this one.



rosie2773 -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 7:21:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

The Bible says that there is only one unforgivable sin. That is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. That meant for all of you who believe that suicide is an unforgivable sin are disregarding biblical teaching. It's there in black, white and red for all to read.

Murder is a forgivable sin, David, Paul, ect were all murderers. Do you think that David, a man after God's own heart is now in hell because he murdered?

God's Word has already answered this one.


My main point is if you ask for forgiveness before you commit a sin, are you really sincere in being sorry. And if a person commits suicide, what if there isn't any time to ask for forgiveness after it is put into motion.



rosie2773 -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 7:23:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pstrdebi

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: rosie2773
As far as life support, Is God keeping that person in this world, or is man? I don't think that removing life support, when that is their only means of survival is killing them, I think its letting them go.

Do you really believe that man can override the will of God, with or without life support, if He wants to end a person's life?

Or, for that matter, that God cannot keep you alive in spite of your best efforts to end your life if He wills it otherwise?


There was a woman... (I think in Florida)... not too long ago. She was pregnant and was in a terrible car accident. They delivered the baby... had her on life support and then she was in a coma for 3 years! Her family wouldn't give up. One day... she just woke up!

That's God!!!



God is God and can do anything He wants. I hope I am never in the situation where I have to make that choice. I'm just saying that I don't believe it is a sin when choosing to remove life support for someone who, according to doctors or whatever have no chance of recovery.



deliveredarling -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 8:19:07 PM)

quote:



My main point is if you ask for forgiveness before you commit a sin, are you really sincere in being sorry. And if a person commits suicide, what if there isn't any time to ask for forgiveness after it is put into motion.


So what's going to happen to you when you die and have sin in your life that you haven't asked forgiveness for?

We all will be in this same position. It is the reason He died, for us, for our forgiveness. Therefore now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
That's not a license to sin. That's even more reason not to.



rosie2773 -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 8:55:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

quote:



My main point is if you ask for forgiveness before you commit a sin, are you really sincere in being sorry. And if a person commits suicide, what if there isn't any time to ask for forgiveness after it is put into motion.


So what's going to happen to you when you die and have sin in your life that you haven't asked forgiveness for?

We all will be in this same position. It is the reason He died, for us, for our forgiveness. Therefore now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
That's not a license to sin. That's even more reason not to.



I guess we'll just agree to disagree. My bible tells me that I'm to live as He lived. If I have sin in my life that I haven't asked forgiveness for, I will be held accountable.
The rest of that scripture you mentioned says
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
If we are committing sin, we are walking after the flesh.



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