RE: is suicide forgiven? (Full Version)

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Qtman -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 9:04:17 PM)

So are you saying you are sinless?



rosie2773 -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 9:20:56 PM)

No, I'm not saying I'm sinless. There are times when I let my flesh get the best of me. However, I do not sin every day or every other day and so on.

My God tells me that sin is not acceptable. But if we do sin we have an advocate with the Father. I just don't agree with people that say basically do what ever you want because its forgiven. Jesus didn't die for us to just continue the way we've always been.

I don't believe that's the way it works



deliveredarling -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 9:52:31 PM)

quote:

But if we do sin we have an advocate with the Father.


My point made exactly.



ladyichigo -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 9:55:17 PM)

So...according to some people's interpretation of Scripture, my dad who is a Christian, had manic depression and during one of his manic episodes, committed suicide 11 years ago, will NOT be forgiven for this sin of committing self murder and therefore will be sent to eternal damnation with Satan and his demons at the Judgement, even though my father accepted Christ into his life as his personal Lord and Savior??

That is the implication I am getting from some folks.[&:]



You know, the first question I asked my youth pastor when I found out about my dad's death that day was if I would ever see my dad again. That was what blurted out whilst my soul was groaning and bawling, my heart was in utter despair and anguish, but I had a deeper question. WHY God allowed this tragedy. The more I think about it, the more I rely on God and His understanding. My faith is based on His faithfulness. Not if I would ever see my dad again. The thing is, at that time Romans 8:38-39 gave me hope that no matter what happens God is faithful. My youth pastor actually never taught me that I will see my dad again. The Lord spoke through him into my heart because He knew what I was really thinking deep down inside. By giving me that verse the Lord gave me hope to persevere in my own walk.

The forgiveness of committing suicide is really something only God can answer. There lies a deeper question. For those who have lost loved ones to suicide like myself, are you going let the devastation of suicide control your life, swallow you up and leave you shattered forever to possibly commit suicide yourself, or will you let God put the pieces back together and have faith in Him that His understanding is beyond our own and we NEED to lean on His goodness?



deliveredarling -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 10:22:19 PM)

quote:

For those who have lost loved ones to suicide like myself, are you going let the devastation of suicide control your life, swallow you up and leave you shattered forever to possibly commit suicide yourself, or will you let God put the pieces back together and have faith in Him that His understanding is beyond our own and we NEED to lean on His goodness?


Absolutely! It took years for me to get to the place of peace and rest in the Lord. I used to wonder and question ans scream why? Now I have peace with the acceptance that He is God and knows better than I could even begin to understand.

I stand on God's Word and do not doubt!



OneJohn410 -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/22/2008 10:42:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sllew

I have question that was asked at Sunday School. Someone wanted to know what do you say to someone's family member that have committed suicide? They want to know if that person goes to heaven or not and are they forgiven? When I searched the bible, I found that Judas hanged himself and Saul fell on his sword when his armour bearer would not kill him. Can anyone comment on this subject to help me out. I informed the class that I would research the matter and get back to them.


quote:

REPLY: DaveW
Since we do not have a direct biblical passage that addresses this subject we are unauthorized to say one way or the other.

Period.


quote:

REPLY: WhiteRoseBlessings
As to what's bolded, are you asking what do you say, as in words of comfort, during the immediate days following? I encourage people to say less than what they really want. This could be applied to any death; not just a suicide. A simple "I love you" goes a long way. "I'm here for you," also works. Things along those lines. At times of death and regarding what to say to impart comfort, less is more.

If you're asking what to say, as in ongoing . . . there's absolutely no good that can come from telling someone that their deceased loved one is going to be spending eternity in hell. I personally don't believe that suicide equals damnation; but regardless of whether one believes this or not, telling it to someone who has lived through someone else's suicide is thoughtless and cruel. The best thing one can do for someone in a situation like this is to assure them of your prayers and love. Surviving someone else's suicide is, in and of itself, one of the most absolutely agonizing things to go through; it doesn't need to be compounded with words of judgment and condemnation; no matter how "scripturally" disguised.

Blessings,
Sharon-Marie


I like the above two posts. The first zeroed in on saying anything about someone's salvation who ended their own life. The second addressed compassion- what could be said.

What can be said to the surviving family members of a suicide?

To have a burning desire to immediately talk with them, I would be in prayer that this was of the Holy Spirit, and that what I had to say was of vital importance. If that wasn't the case, I would be in even more prayer, and provide time to hear back from the Lord the time to make a visit- going with prayer that what I would say and my actions be totally reflective of His love for me. While I waited and pondered this, I might also mentally place myself in the position of everyone I thought I might speak to, and ask myself what would I want to hear were I them? Blending this in with what WRB stated long, long ago in this thread, I'd have my answer. There's no Cliff Notes on something like this. There's no top 10 list of generic replies for this that I've ever seen. Each situation is going to be different- because of the time spent, and the type of association you've had, with the survivors. The best thing you can say is something genuine and something sensitive that were positions reversed would be caring to hear.

The surviving family most surely will dwell on life and death following this, yet again, in someone else's shoes, hurt, disbelief, incomprehension, questions of why my own mother/father/sister/brother/whatever family position... why them?, what was so terrible? why didn't I do such and so more/better, ... I'm thinking thoughts like these are nagging, repeating, unanswerable contentions immediately after the loss. They are going to be doing a lot of thinking about their departed member, and they are not likely to be looking for a lot of conversation or comfort by what anyone predicts is eternity for who they have lost.

I have not read through this whole thread to see if you came back to your research team with what was discussed. I'm hopeful the class consensus was to leave that part of a message of comfort out of it entirely.

As I've just considered from a recent post here in the forum, ministry following something like this need not stop with the immediate family- that close friends of the deceased can also be heavily impacted by this, as can entire high schools through athletic programs, or the loss of a class president... whole towns can realize a loss and have to work through it.

Praying, listening, some Golden Rule, blessings to all in your ministry to survivors,

OneJohn410



pstrdebi -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/23/2008 12:11:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rosie2773

God is God and can do anything He wants. I hope I am never in the situation where I have to make that choice. I'm just saying that I don't believe it is a sin when choosing to remove life support for someone who, according to doctors or whatever have no chance of recovery.


If you say all the rest is sin... you have to conclude this is sin. You are making a choice to end someones life! I could not do that! To pull the plug would be like saying, "God, You can't handle this one... You can't heal this person."

Not me. Not on my watch!



pstrdebi -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/23/2008 12:17:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rosie2773

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. My bible tells me that I'm to live as He lived. If I have sin in my life that I haven't asked forgiveness for, I will be held accountable.
The rest of that scripture you mentioned says
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
If we are committing sin, we are walking after the flesh.


We can't!! We can work towards that end.. but we will NEVER be like Jesus in this fleshly life. Again... let God out of the box! Do you really think that if Billy Graham was in a freak accident and he swore out of fear just before he died, that God is going to turn him away?

God is just and He judges... but He is not an Indian giver and a liar!



Qtman -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/23/2008 7:50:07 AM)

The sad truth is none of us know the answer for sure. I believe it is entirely possible for someone who committed suicide to make it to heaven. I believe once we are saved we are covered by the Blood.

I have heard a lot of question about this and other things related to going to heaven. The point is when we get there I don't think we will spend a lot of time worrying about these things. If it makes life easier on someone left here on this old earth to believe they will see loved ones and pets etc again then I see nothing wrong with the taking comfort in that belief. After all only God knows who made it or is going to make it to his kingdom. And yes God is just and loving. So who knows maybe we will see these folks again.

Blessings
Sam



armydude -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/23/2008 8:08:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qtman

The sad truth is none of us know the answer for sure. I believe it is entirely possible for someone who committed suicide to make it to heaven. I believe once we are saved we are covered by the Blood.

I have heard a lot of question about this and other things related to going to heaven. The point is when we get there I don't think we will spend a lot of time worrying about these things. If it makes life easier on someone left here on this old earth to believe they will see loved ones and pets etc again then I see nothing wrong with the taking comfort in that belief. After all only God knows who made it or is going to make it to his kingdom. And yes God is just and loving. So who knows maybe we will see these folks again.

Blessings
Sam
I had been praying about how to answer this question since I first saw the thread. I knew that above all, I needed to keep a level head if I ever tried to get into this. Just this morning, I believe that the right direction for an answer was given to me. And here I come in to see you've already answered perfectly. Thanks!

The bottom line is, we don't know. So speculating does no good. Instead of debating whether or not the people that have committed suicide are forgiven, why don't we focus more on preventing people from committing suicide now? Condemning them for having suicidal thoughts won't do it, BTW.



deliveredarling -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/23/2008 8:26:38 AM)

quote:

why don't we focus more on preventing people from committing suicide now?


You would think that suicide prevention is truly a helpful priority. The sad thing is: The only who truly wish to die, will. Time can be delayed but if the really want to die, they will find a way. My brother was one of those. He had been in and out of hospitals for 8 years before he died. The doctors tried all available medicines for him at the time. When all resources had been exhausted, the released him telling us he was a walking time bomb.

For survivors, it is very important to realize that there is nothing you could have done to have changed the outcome. NOTHING! The enemy loves nothing more than to come in with the plaguing thoughts of guilt and remorse!

These people made a choice. That choice had nothing to do with friends and family, it was all about that person. I assure you not much thought was given to the ones left behind. If they truly knew what it would do to their survivors, I don't believe that choice would have been made.

I don't mean for any of this to sound harsh, it's just th reality of it. As I have said before, it took many years for me to arrive at this point. I hope that it will help someone here who may be dealing with this.



armydude -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/23/2008 9:26:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

quote:

why don't we focus more on preventing people from committing suicide now?


You would think that suicide prevention is truly a helpful priority. The sad thing is: The only who truly wish to die, will. Time can be delayed but if the really want to die, they will find a way. My brother was one of those. He had been in and out of hospitals for 8 years before he died. The doctors tried all available medicines for him at the time. When all resources had been exhausted, the released him telling us he was a walking time bomb.
If I offend, I apologize. The man that led me to the Lord committed suicide several years after that. He had been diagnosed with a clinical depression, and he was prescribed Prozac. He tried taking himself off the medicine, and the rest is history. So when I hear someone talking about how suicide is surely an "unpardonable sin" and twisting scripture to support it I get a bit upset. That's the reason I took so long in getting here.
quote:



For survivors, it is very important to realize that there is nothing you could have done to have changed the outcome. NOTHING! The enemy loves nothing more than to come in with the plaguing thoughts of guilt and remorse!
I'm going to have to disagree with you here, but please bear with me. My view is this; whether or not anything could have been done is a moot point after the fact. If we go over what could have been done it will drag us down into guilt and condemnation. This is not of God (as you stated). But to say, "I couldn't do anything," is just as wrong. For we as Christians have the most powerful weapon known to men and angels. We have prayer. We can always do something.
quote:



These people made a choice. That choice had nothing to do with friends and family, it was all about that person. I assure you not much thought was given to the ones left behind. If they truly knew what it would do to their survivors, I don't believe that choice would have been made.

I don't mean for any of this to sound harsh, it's just th reality of it. As I have said before, it took many years for me to arrive at this point. I hope that it will help someone here who may be dealing with this.
I've seen firsthand the effects of depression. I've also seen what happens when someone is so wrapped up in despair that they can't see anything good. Anywhere. This person is in the grip of the enemy. The enemy may not have their soul; they could very well be a Christian. But the person in question could have easily sown seed years ago by their thoughts, words, and actions that are just now getting caught up with them. In any case, a person in this situation needs to be saved from that terrible situation.
Like I said before, we can pray. And when we pray and God tells us to do something we need to move. Quickly.



deliveredarling -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/23/2008 10:03:38 AM)

quote:

If I offend, I apologize.

Absolutely none taken[:)]

quote:

So when I hear someone talking about how suicide is surely an "unpardonable sin" and twisting scripture to support it I get a bit upset. That's the reason I took so long in getting here.


Same here.

quote:

For we as Christians have the most powerful weapon known to men and angels. We have prayer. We can always do something.

I didn't intentionally leave out that prayer part of it. You are right, that is the only thing we can do. I was more referring to physical actions.



beachcooky -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/23/2008 10:51:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qtman

So are you saying you are sinless?


She didn't say that. She said she knew she was a sinner.
It's important not to sin, but we have all fallen short of the glory of God.



pstrdebi -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/23/2008 12:51:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

quote:

why don't we focus more on preventing people from committing suicide now?


You would think that suicide prevention is truly a helpful priority. The sad thing is: The only who truly wish to die, will. Time can be delayed but if the really want to die, they will find a way. My brother was one of those. He had been in and out of hospitals for 8 years before he died. The doctors tried all available medicines for him at the time. When all resources had been exhausted, the released him telling us he was a walking time bomb.

For survivors, it is very important to realize that there is nothing you could have done to have changed the outcome. NOTHING! The enemy loves nothing more than to come in with the plaguing thoughts of guilt and remorse!

These people made a choice. That choice had nothing to do with friends and family, it was all about that person. I assure you not much thought was given to the ones left behind. If they truly knew what it would do to their survivors, I don't believe that choice would have been made.

I don't mean for any of this to sound harsh, it's just th reality of it. As I have said before, it took many years for me to arrive at this point. I hope that it will help someone here who may be dealing with this.

quote:

It's important not to sin, but we have all fallen short of the glory of


I love you DD... however, I need to respectfully agree with army dude. There is something we can do for some. I understand that not all will listen... not all will understand... there are many that are so deep in depression that you just can't get through.

I honestly believe 100% that the enemy is out to take as many with him as he can in these last hours. He is here to KILL, STEAL, and DESTROY... and suicide is just one of his tactics.

We need to start talking about this more in church... from the pulpit... at the schools and in youth groups especially. Teen suicide is rampant! If we can reach them with the love of Christ... the enemy as to run. I believe it is the enemy that is behind suicide... even with Christians... he is wispering deceitful lies into their ears.... that, mixed with depression and an unstable life (finances, marriage, etc.)... the enemy just needs that little edge to tell them that their loved ones are better off without them. And sadly, they buy into the lie.

My husband and I are determined not to let Ryan's death be in vain. We, for one church, are determined to talk about this often... having sermons that address it and make sure it is talked about in the youth groups. If we can help to save just one.... then Ryan's life will continue to have purpose!

I love you DD... please don't take offence.
Love ya! Pastor Deb



deliveredarling -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/23/2008 1:18:44 PM)

No offense taken at all. Preaching from the pulpit or even talking about it within the youth groups was an idea I never even thought of. I think that is an awesome idea. You know, until my brother died, I was 17, and an active member of my youth group. Not one time was it addressed in the group or from the pulpit. I'm sad to say, that the experience after his death, left a very bitter taste in my mouth for church and God.

I hope and pray that openly addressing this issue, without fear, will help someone considering suicide or offers them hope and confront from surviving a suicide.



Bridgitt -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/23/2008 1:19:41 PM)

If a child of God who commits suicide without asking forgiveness for his action goes to hell, then why did Jesus die on the cross for that person? If our not asking forgiveness for our sin the second before we die takes us to hell, then Jesus died for nothing.

It is by grace we are saved! Praise the Lord!



pstrdebi -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/23/2008 10:05:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

No offense taken at all. Preaching from the pulpit or even talking about it within the youth groups was an idea I never even thought of. I think that is an awesome idea. You know, until my brother died, I was 17, and an active member of my youth group. Not one time was it addressed in the group or from the pulpit. I'm sad to say, that the experience after his death, left a very bitter taste in my mouth for church and God.

I hope and pray that openly addressing this issue, without fear, will help someone considering suicide or offers them dope and confront from surviving a suicide.


We've decided to use the name "Ryan's Life"... for this outreach. We want to start working on the idea of having a hotline at the church and use some of the stronger H.S. and college age kids to help with it. Hoping the High Schools and Middle Schools will see it's importance too.



deliveredarling -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/23/2008 10:20:44 PM)

Avery cool idea! You are one hip lady[:)]



ladyichigo -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/24/2008 5:08:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pstrdebi

We've decided to use the name "Ryan's Life"... for this outreach. We want to start working on the idea of having a hotline at the church and use some of the stronger H.S. and college age kids to help with it. Hoping the High Schools and Middle Schools will see it's importance too.


That is awesome. God bless you and this outreach. I pray God will use it as a bright beacon of hope for those folks this outreach will be ministering to.



lbyers1 -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/24/2008 10:36:06 PM)

I am new to this forum but I am totally at awe by some of the answers. Only God knows who are saved but I do know one thing. If I need to make a prayer right before I die to be saved, that would make the bible untrue and Jesus a liar. My God and the Bible are NOT liars.
We are saved by Grace not by works or deeds. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that who so ever believes in Him shall not perrish but have eaternal life. Anything less than this would not be what Christ told us. For those of you that answered with a requirement, think about it, pray about it and you will realize that works of any sort will not give you eaternal life. Or as Charles Stanley puts it: There may be a day when you are in heaven and after all your life here on earth you thought that you had to do works too. He may say to you: "I told you so." We are to follow the way that Jesus taught us and want to serve God and allow the Spirit to lead us to do and follow to be more like Jesus, even though we can never get to perfection. Remember we are all Sinners and without the saving Grace none of us would be able to say to Jesus "Lord" and Jesus will say to us "Come in Larry, John, Sally, whoever" I KNOW YOU!



CalRed -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/25/2008 1:13:21 AM)

God has never told us suicide was a sin that could not be forgiven. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit—not suicide.

Those who have had a loved one do this act can rest assured that their loved ones can still be taken to heaven at the resurrection on the day of judgment.

If anyone has any Scripture that even remotely indicates that suicide is an unforgivable sine, please list it. I believe it is not only forgivable but the person performing such an act will still have a chance to repent and be saved, if they were not saved when they did this act.

But one more thing on suicide: Today's advocates of euthanasia present it as an honorable and compassionate act. In fact, the "Death with Dignity" crowd has its roots in a school of thought that had its heyday in the early New Testament era. The Roman philosopher Seneca, a passionate defender of suicide, extolled the virtues of controlling one's own fate. "The wise man will always think in terms of quality, not quantity," he said. When faced with a lingering death, he added, "why not reach for the easier way?" It is this kind of cool-headed, "I'm in charge" suicide that Christians have always condemned.

Of course, there can be good reason to decline extraordinary measures at the end of life, but deliberately expediting the process is another thing altogether. God never promised us dignity in death. As Jesus climbed Mount Calvary covered with blood and sweat, nobody said, "My, doesn't he look dignified!"



CCCdnt -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/25/2008 11:22:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalRed

I believe it is not only forgivable but the person performing such an act will still have a chance to repent and be saved, if they were not saved when they did this act.


Are you trying to say that you believe that a person will have the chance to ask forgiveness for a sin after the person has died? Do you have Scriptural support for this? I have never read anything in the Bible to indicate this.



CCCdnt -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (7/25/2008 11:29:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lbyers1

I am new to this forum but I am totally at awe by some of the answers. Only God knows who are saved but I do know one thing. If I need to make a prayer right before I die to be saved, that would make the bible untrue and Jesus a liar. My God and the Bible are NOT liars.
We are saved by Grace not by works or deeds. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that who so ever believes in Him shall not perrish but have eaternal life. Anything less than this would not be what Christ told us. For those of you that answered with a requirement, think about it, pray about it and you will realize that works of any sort will not give you eaternal life. Or as Charles Stanley puts it: There may be a day when you are in heaven and after all your life here on earth you thought that you had to do works too. He may say to you: "I told you so." We are to follow the way that Jesus taught us and want to serve God and allow the Spirit to lead us to do and follow to be more like Jesus, even though we can never get to perfection. Remember we are all Sinners and without the saving Grace none of us would be able to say to Jesus "Lord" and Jesus will say to us "Come in Larry, John, Sally, whoever" I KNOW YOU!


Your comments are from a OSAS point of view. There are those that believe the Bible teaches that salvation is conditional (which does not automatically mean that they believe it is "works based") and can give Scriptural support for that belief. Not trying to start a debate here on OSAS versus CS as it would be off-topic (and there is a one-stop thread for it), just trying to point out that this view of salvation regarding suicide is not the only view among professing Christians. I have explained this in more detail earlier in this thread.



WhiteRoseBlessings -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (8/9/2008 1:57:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qtman

The sad truth is none of us know the answer for sure. I believe it is entirely possible for someone who committed suicide to make it to heaven. I believe once we are saved we are covered by the Blood.

I have heard a lot of question about this and other things related to going to heaven. The point is when we get there I don't think we will spend a lot of time worrying about these things. If it makes life easier on someone left here on this old earth to believe they will see loved ones and pets etc again then I see nothing wrong with the taking comfort in that belief. After all only God knows who made it or is going to make it to his kingdom. And yes God is just and loving. So who knows maybe we will see these folks again.

Blessings
Sam
It's been a long while since I've been in this thread.

And, at the moment, I just want to say to Sam, thank you for this post!



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