is suicide forgiven? (Full Version)

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sllew -> is suicide forgiven? (2/13/2008 11:12:05 PM)

I have question that was asked at Sunday School. Someone wanted to know what do you say to someone's family member that have committed suicide? They want to know if that person goes to heaven or not and are they forgiven? When I searched the bible, I found that Judas hanged himself and Saul fell on his sword when his armour bearer would not kill him. Can anyone comment on this subject to help me out. I informed the class that I would research the matter and get back to them.



krazyxsinner -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (2/13/2008 11:23:22 PM)

It depends on whether or not the person was able to repent between the attempt and death. Sometimes only God knows that answer.



1love1God1way -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (2/14/2008 1:18:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: krazyxsinner

It depends on whether or not the person was able to repent between the attempt and death. Sometimes only God knows that answer.


So, if someone dies without having said a prayer for all of their sins, then they are doomed? What about all those people who die in freak accidents?



crystalblue -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (2/14/2008 3:11:09 AM)

If someone is so wretchedly unhappy that they'll take their own life - do you think God, who is a God of love, is really going to condemn them more then any other human being? I don't. Some people will argue that 'do not murder' means suicide. But they're going to have to stand before God one day and explain that. It's a pretty harsh and condemning line to take.
(And people who have never lost a loved one that way or faced a situation that bad themselves - will probably be the more likely ones pointing the finger.)

If God is really that harsh - why bother worshiping him? Only someone incredibly self-righteous and hard hearted would take that kind of stance.



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (2/14/2008 3:13:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slewis

I have question that was asked at Sunday School. Someone wanted to know what do you say to someone's family member that have committed suicide? They want to know if that person goes to heaven or not and are they forgiven? When I searched the bible, I found that Judas hanged himself and Saul fell on his sword when his armour bearer would not kill him. Can anyone comment on this subject to help me out. I informed the class that I would research the matter and get back to them.


God would know the answer to who is saved and who isn't. None of us truly knows another person's heart or exactly why God allows mental illness and depression. Do we know if all our relatives went to heaven or hell? I hope to see people in heaven that I hadn't been sure about before they died.



DaveW -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (2/14/2008 7:15:25 AM)

Since we do not have a direct biblical passage that addresses this subject we are unauthorized to say one way or the other.

Period.



ldunning -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (2/14/2008 7:34:38 AM)

Dear friend,
Ephesians 2:8 and 9.



WhiteRoseBlessings -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (2/14/2008 7:34:48 AM)

Good post, Dave.



quote:

ORIGINAL: slewis

I have question that was asked at Sunday School. Someone wanted to know what do you say to someone's family member that have committed suicide? They want to know if that person goes to heaven or not and are they forgiven? When I searched the bible, I found that Judas hanged himself and Saul fell on his sword when his armour bearer would not kill him. Can anyone comment on this subject to help me out. I informed the class that I would research the matter and get back to them.
As to what's bolded, are you asking what do you say, as in words of comfort, during the immediate days following? I encourage people to say less than what they really want. This could be applied to any death; not just a suicide. A simple "I love you" goes a long way. "I'm here for you," also works. Things along those lines. At times of death and regarding what to say to impart comfort, less is more.

If you're asking what to say, as in ongoing . . . there's absolutely no good that can come from telling someone that their deceased loved one is going to be spending eternity in hell. I personally don't believe that suicide equals damnation; but regardless of whether one believes this or not, telling it to someone who has lived through someone else's suicide is thoughtless and cruel. The best thing one can do for someone in a situation like this is to assure them of your prayers and love. Surviving someone else's suicide is, in and of itself, one of the most absolutely agonizing things to go through; it doesn't need to be compounded with words of judgment and condemnation; no matter how "scripturally" disguised.

Blessings,
Sharon-Marie



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JimboFletch -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (2/14/2008 8:27:21 AM)

If salvation is contingent on perfection and works at the moment of death, then not only is suicide unforgiven, but the rest of us are also doomed.

If, however, Jesus does indeed give us eternal life by grace through faith, then His blood covers our sin. We can then say with the writer of The Solid Rock, "My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus’ blood and righteousness."


Besides, most, if not all, suicides are done by people suffering severe mental illness. It takes a pretty cold heart to think God would hold someone truly not themselves to a standard of sinlessness at death as someone who is rational.



timf -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (2/14/2008 9:02:37 AM)

is suicide forgiven?

Some Catholics and some Calvinists might say that death with unconfessed (or unrepented) sin of any kind hinders entrance to heaven. There is not much Bible to support such a view. The Bible pretty convincingly paints a picture of entrance into heaven predicated upon faith in Jesus. The addition of anything we do becomes a type of "works" based faith which seems to be denied by the Bible.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.



JimboFletch -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (2/14/2008 9:06:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: timf

is suicide forgiven?

Some Catholics and some Calvinists might say that death with unconfessed (or unrepented) sin of any kind hinders entrance to heaven....

I think you meant "Catholics and all Arminians," not Calvinists. Calvinists believe in the Perseverance of the Saints - it's the "P" in TULIP.
[;)]



sllew -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (2/14/2008 9:42:43 AM)

I want to thank you all for your input. I am in agreement with what has been said on this subject. I will share your answers with the Sunday school class.



Ephesians4_32 -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (2/14/2008 9:43:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

quote:

ORIGINAL: timf

is suicide forgiven?

Some Catholics and some Calvinists might say that death with unconfessed (or unrepented) sin of any kind hinders entrance to heaven....

I think you meant "Catholics and all Arminians," not Calvinists. Calvinists believe in the Perseverance of the Saints - it's the "P" in TULIP.
[;)]


Uh-huh.



pjforhim -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (2/14/2008 9:11:55 PM)

As someone whose husband completed suicide almost three years ago I would like to say that I truly appreciated seeing this post and the thoughtful answers.
As to what to say to someone-please try to treat it as any other death- we loved these people. It seems that no one wants to talk about the deceased because their whole life has now been defined by this one act. Please do not ask if they left a note or ask why they did it or tell their children that their father will not go to heaven.
Try as much as possible to treat this as any other kind of death where you would tell the family that you will miss this person or remember something about their life that touched you.
Most people don't know what to say to anyone after a death in the family but in the case of a suicide they can't seem to get past the word itself so they shy away even more, as if they can't even tell the family they are sorry this has happened.
To the family who is already reeling, this silence from friends and neighbors is more of a condemnation- because in most families of completed suicide, in the beginning,we all feel that it is our fault somehow. So please, say something, anything, but the silence can be deafening.
As to whether or not suicide is forgiven- my lord is the God of love- he even loves people who suffer from clinical depression- and they love him.
And through His grace we survive.



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WhiteRoseBlessings -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (2/14/2008 9:16:08 PM)

pjforhim - God Bless you.

My husband also took his life . . . this June will be 3 years.

You have my empathy and my prayers.
Blessings,
Sharon-Marie



ladyichigo -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (2/14/2008 9:37:38 PM)

quote:

To the family who is already reeling, this silence from friends and neighbors is more of a condemnation- because in most families of completed suicide, in the beginning,we all feel that it is our fault somehow. So please, say something, anything, but the silence can be deafening.


This is true. After my father committed suicide, our church was very silent about the whole thing. It was people that we didn't know from that church and people from outside that church that comforted us, prayed for us and took the initiative to talk to us. Some of the people my mother knew in the congregation blamed her for my dad's death, and for that she was deeply wounded.

It's been almost 11 years and people are STILL hesitant to talk to our family about the incident. It's like they are ashamed of our family for that....like we're "tainted".

Although my dad suffered from manic depression, he loved Jesus Christ with all his heart. He was a very godly man. I believe he was forgiven for what he had done. I really wished more people talked to us about what had happened and helped us through the grieving.



SD456 -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (2/14/2008 9:37:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings

Good post, Dave.



quote:

ORIGINAL: slewis

I have question that was asked at Sunday School. Someone wanted to know what do you say to someone's family member that have committed suicide? They want to know if that person goes to heaven or not and are they forgiven? When I searched the bible, I found that Judas hanged himself and Saul fell on his sword when his armour bearer would not kill him. Can anyone comment on this subject to help me out. I informed the class that I would research the matter and get back to them.
As to what's bolded, are you asking what do you say, as in words of comfort, during the immediate days following? I encourage people to say less than what they really want. This could be applied to any death; not just a suicide. A simple "I love you" goes a long way. "I'm here for you," also works. Things along those lines. At times of death and regarding what to say to impart comfort, less is more.

If you're asking what to say, as in ongoing . . . there's absolutely no good that can come from telling someone that their deceased loved one is going to be spending eternity in hell. I personally don't believe that suicide equals damnation; but regardless of whether one believes this or not, telling it to someone who has lived through someone else's suicide is thoughtless and cruel. The best thing one can do for someone in a situation like this is to assure them of your prayers and love. Surviving someone else's suicide is, in and of itself, one of the most absolutely agonizing things to go through; it doesn't need to be compounded with words of judgment and condemnation; no matter how "scripturally" disguised.

Blessings,
Sharon-Marie


Beautiful post. I very much appreciate you words of wisdom. Very true.



WhiteRoseBlessings -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (2/14/2008 9:39:36 PM)

Thank you, SD456.



pjforhim -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (2/14/2008 11:49:19 PM)

WhiteRoseBlessings and ladyichigo thank you for sharing with me.
Sometimes in conversation you can hear the audible gasp when the word suicide is mentioned. It is almost freeing to type it and not be able to see or hear the gasp, or to see the palpable discomfort of some people when they first learn how he died.
But suicide is a word and a situation that in my house we have had to get used to. I will not let other people's discomfort embarass my daughters into thinking that they should feel any shame over how their father died.
As ladyichigo said it is quite often the people in your own church, who knew you and your family member the best, who have the hardest time finding appropriate words of comfort.
Thank you both. And thanks to sllew for starting the thread.



Okami -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (2/15/2008 1:12:44 AM)

I myself believe a little differently than the norm I guess.

For one, if he was a believer and truly repented for his past sins, then he was saved. Suicide is still a sin, and that one particular sin wouldn't be forgiven if he didn't repent of it before he died, but it wouldn't mean he would suddenly be going to hell I don't think. Sometimes sin just gets the best of us. We all do it, we just have time to confess it and get back on track. We don't get erased from the book of life each slip we make, we just start to lose fellowship a little at a time. It would just be an unconfessed sin on judgement day.
God knows the heart, and would surely know if he truly felt he wanted to be with the Lord right away than endure the perceived impossible situation they were dealing with. (which could lead to a whole other argument about lacking faith in itself )

But, I also don't believe God would take someone against their will either.
If someone saved decides to give it up, spends the next 10 years trying to be a devout athiest, then finally kills themselves, they aren't going to get a "well done, come on in to Heaven".

Yes, I think it applies to freak accidents too.
Unsaved, tough luck.
Saved, great, they see God sooner.
Saved, sin, truly repent, sin, truly repent, sin and die suddenly, they will still see Heaven.
Saved, sin, sin, sin, sin, with no sign of caring or remorse and die suddenly, then tough luck. The last 5 verses of matt 24 would apply to him.



BibleL7 -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (2/15/2008 2:14:39 AM)

Eph 2:8 for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, that no one would boast.

good verses and very much supports the truth of the matter. As for what the Bible does say concerning this is there is only one unforgivable sin that is Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. No matter what your argument it can not be soundly argued that suicide is blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Only the Lord knows who is saved is true we can see from fruit in their life and knowing the person to have a good idea if they are born again and showing forth Gods love.

In your OP you mentioned Saul and Judas as committing suicide two of which none would think were saved. But there is also Samson who was repentant before he ended his life and glorified God and took more of the enemy with him then than in all his life. Also you mentioned King Saul but you left out his armor bearer. He also took his own life and from what we read concerning his armor bearer I would think that he was truly a righteous man and I think we can make a fairly good case for him being in heaven when we get there. Just two that you might want to use .

The final point is that salvation is solely dependent on Jesus and our life is also. If a person is a believer when they die then they will be with the Lord. For if the Lord allows them to die then He has His reasons. Possibly He knows best that it is time to take this person home to end the pain and suffering they are having. As He would for any other form of death. Remember He controls that. And the person had to decide before that if they believe in Jesus. That is the determining factor FAITH IN JESUS.

So yes it is forgiven if the person has been forgiven their sins. Once we are born again all our sins are forgiven. Salvation does not depend on our actions our rewards do but not Salvation.

I also had a dear friend who's husband took his own life and knowing him for the time I did I believed him to be born again and I felt assurance from the Lord that her husband was with the Lord and that is what I told her. Of course at the time I was a bit jealous of him that the Lord allowed him to end his suffering and would not allow me but then when I last attempted suicide if the Lord had allowed me I would have gone straight to eternal torment for i was an atheist. But the Lord had other plans for me and much of my first three years of knowing Him I spent with others who suffered with mental illness and He allowed many of us suffering to help others who were suffering. Sorry off the point

Just the opinion of a small town preacher



SteelCurtain -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (2/15/2008 9:31:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

If salvation is contingent on perfection and works at the moment of death, then not only is suicide unforgiven, but the rest of us are also doomed.

If, however, Jesus does indeed give us eternal life by grace through faith, then His blood covers our sin. We can then say with the writer of The Solid Rock, "My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus’ blood and righteousness."


Besides, most, if not all, suicides are done by people suffering severe mental illness. It takes a pretty cold heart to think God would hold someone truly not themselves to a standard of sinlessness at death as someone who is rational.


This is an example of reading waaaaaay too much into the question that was posed. What I put in bold makes no sense to me at all. Sorry, but I see no basis for what you said.



JimboFletch -> RE: is suicide forgiven? (2/15/2008 9:38:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelCurtain

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

If salvation is contingent on perfection and works at the moment of death, then not only is suicide unforgiven, but the rest of us are also doomed.

If, however, Jesus does indeed give us eternal life by grace through faith, then His blood covers our sin. We can then say with the writer of The Solid Rock, "My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus’ blood and righteousness."


Besides, most, if not all, suicides are done by people suffering severe mental illness. It takes a pretty cold heart to think God would hold someone truly not themselves to a standard of sinlessness at death as someone who is rational.


This is an example of reading waaaaaay too much into the question that was posed. What I put in bold makes no sense to me at all. Sorry, but I see no basis for what you said.

I was simply addressing issues that I've dealt with and that I've discovered when people I've known and loved have committed suicide. What is it you fail to understand?

Would you say that someone who commits suicide is purely rational, in their right mind, and fully sane?

Or do you think God holds the mentally ill to the same standard as the completely well?



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